Can we just take a moment to talk about Black Mage?

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Originally Posted by Colt47

The actual rotation feels good on Black Mage and I like the idea they have with the big powerful spell at the end of the chain, but does anyone else feel like they need to have the ley line buff a built in speed boost just like monk and greased lightning? Their casts are just so slow that it turns everything into trying to do a mini-management game with the triple cast and it would be way better to just have a passive 15% speed boost to spell casting and have something more useful in the triple cast slot.

It's like they wanted to do everything to keep it this clunky slow and painful caster in a game that is completely not built for that.

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Nope, plays fine to me. If you want to go faster try RDM or SMN.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

And honestly if someone mained BLM and made it work all the power to them. If it was completely unplayable they'd have changed it a long time ago and yeah the job probably isn't for me. Just this is not a job that works well with the content they got and have seen enough of the gameplay with blms in a group to know it doesn't work well.

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I mean, you could try to tell the Director that since all he plays is BLM. Honestly, of all the caster, BLM is in the best spot in terms of job mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Nope, plays fine to me. If you want to go faster try RDM or SMN.

I mean, you could try to tell the Director that since all he plays is BLM. Honestly, of all the caster, BLM is in the best spot in terms of job mechanics.

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Probably would tell the Yoshi P. that the job has issues compared to the other casters but given the direction they are taking with handling timing windows they probably got an idea already. At least I'd hope they would.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Probably would tell the Yoshi P. that the job has issues compared to the other casters but given the direction they are taking with handling timing windows they probably got an idea already. At least I'd hope they would.

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Well, what you call 'issue' is actually a defining feature of the job. Stretegize your slow casts with your movement tools around the fight is the core mechanics of the job. Proposing buffs to speed up spell casts is trying to trivialize a good part of BLM core mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Dahlinea

Well, what you call 'issue' is actually a defining feature of the job. Stretegize your slow casts with your movement tools around the fight is the core mechanics of the job. Proposing buffs to speed up spell casts is trying to trivialize a good part of BLM core mechanics.

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The only thing I see them doing to BLM is having Fire III grant three charges for Fire IV and Fire IV renews the Echolochian timer so the BLM has time to cast Despair / Flare and possibly get in a second Despair / Flare on rotation. It just makes the job a lot less problematic for spell speed issues.

Just about everything else about the job fits the current design they got in the game. The reason I said earlier it feels like the spells need more speed is because of the drop off that happens when correcting on fights. That is something that both RDM and SMN can do and BLM simply was never updated to handle. The only option a BLM has outside of a instant cast under current design would be to use Fire IV x3 and Fire 1 x1 to refresh to give time to use despair, but if the player has to move than it's going to drop off anyway before fire 1 goes off unless the player only had to make a small adjustment, or has enough spell speed to self correct, or has an instant cast up.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

The only thing I see them doing to BLM is having Fire III grant three charges for Fire IV and Fire IV renews the Echolochian timer so the BLM has time to cast Despair / Flare and possibly get in a second Despair / Flare on rotation. It just makes the job a lot less problematic for spell speed issues.

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If they do that why BLM would require spell speed in the first place? They will never do that unless they decide to delete Spell Speed stat from the game for good.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Just about everything else about the job fits the current design they got in the game. The reason I said earlier it feels like the spells need more speed is because of the drop off that happens when correcting on fights. That is something that both RDM and SMN can do and BLM simply was never updated to handle. The only option a BLM has outside of a instant cast under current design would be to use Fire IV x3 and Fire 1 x1 to refresh to give time to use despair, but if the player has to move than it's going to drop off anyway before fire 1 goes off unless the player only had to make a small adjustment, or has enough spell speed to self correct, or has an instant cast up.

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Again, this is not a job problem but a player problem. BLM requires you to know the fight beforehand to be optimal and don't fall to what you're describing here as the 'job issue'.
People already said that here. It's one of the few jobs that require thought and dedication to play. It's already enough to have SMN turning into a braindead mage in this expansion, leave BLM alone ffs.

man will spend 43 hours explaining why the job should be made even more idiot proof rather than take an hour or two to learn each savage fight

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Originally Posted by butchersblock

man will spend 43 hours explaining why the job should be made even more idiot proof rather than take an hour or two to learn each savage fight

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Is that exact reason the first thing I told OP was their complaint is a 'you' problem, not the job. The fact they're flip-flopping on what they think the problem is seems suspect, though.

End of the day, BLM has a bar set for play, and if a player fails to perform, it has a consequence. Wish more jobs still had that.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

There already exists casters that "cast" quickly if that's what they're looking for. Don't make BLM like jobs that already exist, that's just ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as your extreme example.

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I think I agree with everything in your post - and I do find it funny there there are people asking for change like this (did they not see how "corrupt-a-wish" changes like this to MNK and etc have turned out?) - though I will point out you're slightly wrong with this statement. RDM is a melee/caster hybrid, not a true caster. They frequently have to engage in melee. While many people like this, it takes away from them being a true caster that maintains range from the enemy. SMN also has this issue, though far less (Ifrit's charge), and has three long casts per minute (2x in Ifrit, 1x in Garuda). While that's not massively HUGE and it is really mobile otherwise, this still leads us to the result that BLM is the only true ranged caster in the game other than AST (WHM, SCH, and SGE all have to go melee range for AOE and SGE has to for Phlegma as well)

That said, I do agree overall that we need more unique Jobs, not less. How we've gotten so much homogenization is exactly this; "grass is always greener" requests to give Jobs "QoL" type improvements that other Jobs have.

BLM already lost some of its hardcaster identity with its big instant casts and Triple Cast (now with TWO charges!) as it is.

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Originally Posted by butchersblock

man will spend 43 hours explaining why the job should be made even more idiot proof rather than take an hour or two to learn each savage fight

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Hours must mean something different here since by that standard I spent about 720+ hours playing BLM over the last week, which would be physically impossible.

If you really wanted to know what my experience has been seeing BLMs in savage... okay where to start on this one.

1) BLM joins group and decides they want to do a parse run. Ends up dying so much to mechanics during phase 2 of P4S we had to exit and get another player.
2) Watched BLM basically either do a lot of damage or barely any damage in more tiers than I care to count (Either moving around so much they barely get casts off except by the cooldowns they have, or get timings perfect and do it all right)
3) The meme of the blm that is willing to stay in a somewhat life threatening position to make sure they get a cast off is funny because it happens a lot, usually with leylines, for a lot of reasons.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Hours must mean something different here since by that standard I spent about 720+ hours playing BLM over the last week, which would be physically impossible.

If you really wanted to know what my experience has been seeing BLMs in savage... okay where to start on this one.

1) BLM joins group and decides they want to do a parse run. Ends up dying so much to mechanics during phase 2 of P4S we had to exit and get another player.
2) Watched BLM basically either do a lot of damage or barely any damage in more tiers than I care to count (Either moving around so much they barely get casts off except by the cooldowns they have, or get timings perfect and do it all right)
3) The meme of the blm that is willing to stay in a somewhat life threatening position to make sure they get a cast off is funny because it happens a lot, usually with leylines, for a lot of reasons.

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But again, that's a player issue, not a job issue.

Where in this argument points to the job being the problem? If it casted quickly, they'd still get hit for face tanking avoidable damage. It's called greed.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

1) BLM joins group and decides they want to do a parse run. Ends up dying so much to mechanics during phase 2 of P4S we had to exit and get another player.
2) Watched BLM basically either do a lot of damage or barely any damage in more tiers than I care to count (Either moving around so much they barely get casts off except by the cooldowns they have, or get timings perfect and do it all right)
3) The meme of the blm that is willing to stay in a somewhat life threatening position to make sure they get a cast off is funny because it happens a lot, usually with leylines, for a lot of reasons.

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I've seen DNCs try to greed melee uptime during spots. I've seen RPRs try to greed their Communio casts and get shit on.
I've seen DRGs get hit by AoEs by their jumps, and I've seen warriors do the same with their Primal Rend.

And you know what, that's fine. In fact, there should be more pitfalls and punishing mechanics to the job that demand thoughtful play.
A job shouldn't be able to autopilot through their rotations in every single fight. That's not good job design, that's a striking dummy with extra steps.

The fact that the skill gap between good BLMs and bad BLMs exists is a good thing. It increases the replayability of the class and gives you more incentive to master the job.
A job without depth is the most boring job to play. Take a look at SMN and how many people have been complaining about the rework.

Meanwhile, the majority of people who complain about BLM are the people who don't even play BLM .
And that is actually pretty hilarious.

Op doesn’t know what they’re talking about and it’s frustrating me

I didn't dig too deep into the OP's posts but I see a lot of people negatively strongly disagreeing with them. I understand your frustration. You love your class and they want it changed to suite a more mobile style. I get it.

But I also agree with the OP. I believe the whole 3 second cast time is overall bad game design. I wouldn't have any issues with it if either A. ice/fire phases had no timers, or B. fire phase had a refreshing instant GCD ability that didn't require a sharp cast or random proc (Like Ice).

Weaving in your oGCD's at such tight positions really limits what the class can do. It requires not only knowing boss mechanics but forethought on how many spells will lead to you dropping your phase timer. All too often you're staring down a 3 second window with Thunder about to drop, a boss mechanic coming up, 2 stacks of Polygot about to become a third (Using that Polygot oGCD), and plenty more. It's all very disorienting. It is truly a difficult class to play despite having 3 second windows of eye exploration.

I don't want to ruin BLM's fantasy of long cast times, but I believe limiting a class' oGCD's to such tight windows negatively impacts the class/player. That's just my personal thought. I also believe back-to-back 3 second long casts have no place in MMO's. Again, personal opinion.

I'd love to see the class changed but I won't harp on it enough to ruin it for other players.

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Originally Posted by Stachiko

I didn't dig too deep into the OP's posts but I see a lot of people negatively strongly disagreeing with them. I understand your frustration. You love your class and they want it changed to suite a more mobile style. I get it.

But I also agree with the OP. I believe the whole 3 second cast time is overall bad game design. I wouldn't have any issues with it if either A. ice/fire phases had no timers, or B. fire phase had a refreshing instant GCD ability that didn't require a sharp cast or random proc (Like Ice).

Weaving in your oGCD's at such tight positions really limits what the class can do. It requires not only knowing boss mechanics but forethought on how many spells will lead to you dropping your phase timer. All too often you're staring down a 3 second window with Thunder about to drop, a boss mechanic coming up, 2 stacks of Polygot about to become a third (Using that Polygot oGCD), and plenty more. It's all very disorienting. It is truly a difficult class to play despite having 3 second windows of eye exploration.

I don't want to ruin BLM's fantasy of long cast times, but I believe limiting a class' oGCD's to such tight windows negatively impacts the class/player. That's just my personal thought. I also believe back-to-back 3 second long casts have no place in MMO's. Again, personal opinion.

I'd love to see the class changed but I won't harp on it enough to ruin it for other players.

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You say the jobs needs to be changed to accommodate your need to not have to cast anymore, but you also say the fantasy of its long casts should stay. You only get to choose one.

If you don't like playing a job that has to cast, just like if people who want to play melee have to stay in range, then find another job that accommodates you. I heard SMN is a magical phys range with little to no casting to fit your prefered play style. Or maybe just play a phys range since there is no casting involved? Either learn to play the job, or find something else. No one else is stopping you, but you.

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Originally Posted by Kulve

You say the jobs needs to be changed to accommodate your need to not have to cast anymore, but you also say the fantasy of its long casts should stay. You only get to choose one.

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No, that's you putting words into my mouth. And don't call it specifically my need. I'm thinking of all the players who ignore the class because it's too difficult. The bottom line is, the skill floor for BLM is too high. It doesn't need to be.

As for long casts, it doesn't have to be back-to-back casts. It could be one massive mega spell similar to the Warlock's Soul Fire cast in WoW. The back-to-back nature is what forces tiny oGCD windows.

Again, I'm only voicing my opinion. I'm not here to to neuter your class. I'm only stating a viewpoint. Something that's bothered me for a while and I just wanted to get it off my chest.

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Originally Posted by Stachiko

No, that's you putting words into my mouth. And don't call it specifically my need. I'm thinking of all the players who ignore the class because it's too difficult. The bottom line is, the skill floor for BLM is too high. It doesn't need to be.

As for long casts, it doesn't have to be back-to-back casts. It could be one massive mega spell similar to the Warlock's Soul Fire cast in WoW. The back-to-back nature is what forces tiny oGCD windows.

Again, I'm only voicing my opinion. I'm not here to to neuter your class. I'm only stating a viewpoint. Something that's bothered me for a while and I just wanted to get it off my chest.

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Not every job has to be for every person. That's kind of the mindset that we're "strongly disagreeing with", you're trying to change it so that people who don't like it will like it. The thing is, the same reason why you DON'T like it is the reason why the people who play it DO like it. Also, what you're asking for kind of already exists, there is SMN and RDM if you want to play a caster that doesn't have long cast times.

That's the point that we're making; Homogenization is bad. Changing the core mechanics of a job whose fans enjoy it because of its core mechanics is bad.

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Originally Posted by Stachiko

No, that's you putting words into my mouth. And don't call it specifically my need. I'm thinking of all the players who ignore the class because it's too difficult. The bottom line is, the skill floor for BLM is too high. It doesn't need to be.

As for long casts, it doesn't have to be back-to-back casts. It could be one massive mega spell similar to the Warlock's Soul Fire cast in WoW. The back-to-back nature is what forces tiny oGCD windows.

Again, I'm only voicing my opinion. I'm not here to to neuter your class. I'm only stating a viewpoint. Something that's bothered me for a while and I just wanted to get it off my chest.

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And we're free to disagree with that opinion. Your ideas essentially goes against BLM. You're asking for a new caster. You're asking for a mix of SMN with BLM aesthetics.
If you haven't read the mountains of valid arguments in this thread, I suggest you do. Everything you've described is essentially why we play BLM, from the meaningful rotation choices to the high risk and reward playstyle.

If anything, the game needs another hard caster like BLM. It would make a perfect ratio of two dedicated casters and two mobile ones.

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Originally Posted by Stachiko

I didn't dig too deep into the OP's posts but I see a lot of people negatively strongly disagreeing with them. I understand your frustration. You love your class and they want it changed to suite a more mobile style. I get it.

But I also agree with the OP. I believe the whole 3 second cast time is overall bad game design. I wouldn't have any issues with it if either A. ice/fire phases had no timers, or B. fire phase had a refreshing instant GCD ability that didn't require a sharp cast or random proc (Like Ice).

Weaving in your oGCD's at such tight positions really limits what the class can do. It requires not only knowing boss mechanics but forethought on how many spells will lead to you dropping your phase timer. All too often you're staring down a 3 second window with Thunder about to drop, a boss mechanic coming up, 2 stacks of Polygot about to become a third (Using that Polygot oGCD), and plenty more. It's all very disorienting. It is truly a difficult class to play despite having 3 second windows of eye exploration.

I don't want to ruin BLM's fantasy of long cast times, but I believe limiting a class' oGCD's to such tight windows negatively impacts the class/player. That's just my personal thought. I also believe back-to-back 3 second long casts have no place in MMO's. Again, personal opinion.

I'd love to see the class changed but I won't harp on it enough to ruin it for other players.

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This is a solid case of "git gud"

BLM is one of the few jobs in the game that is extremely well designed and doesn't need to change. Catering to people who refuse to learn mechanics and and time their positionings to those mechanics simply should just play something else.

It's very disappointing to see people brigading to remove the one final job in the game with any semblance of complexity left. Every other job has already been made simple and shallow enough for anyone to pick up within 10 minutes, why try to take away even BLM from dedicated players?

I love playing my black mage. It's fun to find spots to get rotations done without going splat. Some boss fights don't afford those kind of opportunities much but other boss fights do. I think the trick is to save your triple cast for moments where you need to be mobile in order to find the next spot to plant on, without losing your rotation.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

And we're free to disagree with that opinion. Your ideas essentially goes against BLM. You're asking for a new caster. You're asking for a mix of SMN with BLM aesthetics.
If you haven't read the mountains of valid arguments in this thread, I suggest you do. Everything you've described is essentially why we play BLM, from the meaningful rotation choices to the high risk and reward playstyle.

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Valid arguments and legitimate angry post against the OP. The OP is also expressing an opinion. There's no need to attack them, or myself for that matter. Telling us to git gud when I already play BLM in savage content is counter-productive.

At this point all I want is a training mode for savage. Making 7 other people suffer as you deal with learning optimal mobility (Through a lack of rotation-allotted mobility) is pretty rough. Disheartening really.

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Originally Posted by Stachiko

Valid arguments and legitimate angry post against the OP. The OP is also expressing an opinion. There's no need to attack them, or myself for that matter. Telling us to git gud when I already play BLM in savage content is counter-productive.

At this point all I want is a training mode for savage. Making 7 other people suffer as you deal with learning optimal mobility (Through a lack of rotation-allotted mobility) is pretty rough. Disheartening really.

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Opinions I can argue against. "Just my opinion" is not an excuse to be safe from criticism. We're free to criticize and discuss your opinions as much as you're free to post in them.
Telling them to git gud is literally the only answer we can give him considering he/she's been glossing over our reasonings behind why we think the suggestions are dumb.
OP's been flip flopping between "oh I see BLMs are bad, oh BLMs aren't designed with the game encounters, oh BLMs have too many timers, oh BLMs have actual cast times, oh it's too hard to play BLM" and we've been explaining multiple times why:

1. A person being bad at a job doesn't mean the job is bad.
2. BLM has movement tools to help with movement, you just have to plan it
3. Which gives it decision making, a factor that is removed from a LOT of jobs in the game
4. Almost like they're casters
5. Git gud.

Nobody cares if you play BLM in Savage-level encounters. You can literally play BLM in a savage level encounter by stepping into P1S and afking. Nobody cares about how skilled you are, or if you even play BLM or not.
What we care about are that these ideas will make the only fun job in the game less fun, and less satisfying and will ruin it. The ideas go against BLM, its identity and playstyle.
It's the same thing as asking for BLM to turn into SMN, when we already have SMN-like job design for the rest of the jobs, and BLM is the only job aside from BLU that has some semblence of complexity.

"Just my humble opinion" is not a shield. I will still call you out if I think your suggestions are dumb, which I think they are.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

If anything, the game needs another hard caster like BLM. It would make a perfect ratio of two dedicated casters and two mobile ones.

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This 100% now that SMN is just the 4th physical ranged in everything but name. There are only 2 casters in the game, and the entire gimmick of 1 of them is that they only have to cast half the time.