ZAM gave up on FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by Fusionx

The way our system works is if you update an item/ability, it will update on any page on the wiki where it's listed. That way you don't have to make a bunch of edits on a bunch of pages for the same time.

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That... makes... a whole lot of sense actually. Very object oriented.


Alright, with those things in mind I think I'll go back to trying to improve the wiki like I used to. Thanks for the explanation!

very much appreciated for the fill in FusionX. i never expected such a great explanation, and just knowing that there is more than a couple sites for reference (i like to cross check) makes me very excited to continue and contribute where i can to the cool guys like you who dedicate far more time to things like this

well said :D

My issue with the wiki is it doesn't seem as clear cut as FFXIclopedia was.

Way back at launch, ZAM was the horse I bet on. Everything seemed to be going well, then the forums because such a pit of vitriol I stopped reading them and only used it for items and synths. Then they never really recovered from all the changes of patch 1.18, so I didn't go there for that anymore either. I'm not sure if ZAM abandoned FFXIV or the FFXIV playerbase abandoned them. Then end result is the same though.

Zam, YG & Gamerescape are all pretty bad at keeping up to date with all the updates, I don't understand why since the official site/lodestone lists each and every change... just lazy mods wanting to build up a FFXIV community then realise they have to put some effort into actually keep information up to date. eg Gamerescape doesn't even have a page on (The Aurum Vale) lol fail... and mooglebox never used it as official site/disciplesofthehand seems enough for me atm

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Originally Posted by NationOfZealots

Zam, YG & Gamerescape are all pretty bad at keeping up to date with all the updates, I don't understand why since the official site/lodestone lists each and every change... just lazy mods wanting to build up a FFXIV community then realise they have to put some effort into actually keep information up to date. eg Gamerescape doesn't even have a page on (The Aurum Vale) lol fail... and mooglebox never used it as official site/disciplesofthehand seems enough for me atm

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We have a group of people that put a lot of work and free time in to keep things up to date and accurate. Gahoo put it better than I ever could.

We are well aware that there isn't a page for the Aurum Vale and we have been working on components to put into a raid template such as: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Template_talk:Chest

Also, you know, you could always make the pages that are missing instead of complaining about them missing. Again, its not just the mods that run and populate the site. It's everyone. I feel like people keep missing the whole point of a community wiki. We're not a database site that updates itself.

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Originally Posted by Zyph

That... makes... a whole lot of sense actually. Very object oriented.


Alright, with those things in mind I think I'll go back to trying to improve the wiki like I used to. Thanks for the explanation!

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Glad the explanation made sense! and props for any contributions you make!

My highest ranking gripe with Gamerescape isn't a lack of missing pages, it's that any information seems so hard to actually get too. Even if every page and article was present and fleshed out it's just painful trying to find it. This was my opinion when I first checked it out pre-launch through the early stage of the game and I just checked back in with the site and I still find this to be the case. And the podcasts, oh my the podcasts. I'm giving Aetheryte Radio another shot as I write this so we'll see if things have improved.

(So the content of the podcast seems to have improved greatly, but FusionX your audio. What are you doing to the human voice over there?)

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Originally Posted by Riv

My issue with the wiki is it doesn't seem as clear cut as FFXIclopedia was.

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Was is the optimal word. I like FFXIclopedia 3 years ago before they changed the way the front page was setup.
it was much easier to get to the info I was looking for then the way it's set-up now.

Glad to see some constructive comments. Restores my faith a bit to be honest. Few more comments (sorry to derail a ZAM thread, but tbh I think they really did basically give up on the game, so not sure it matters. Also, as a corporate site, not really sure anyone would be here representing them anyway).

First, a comment on history. Keep in mind that we started adding content to FFXIclopedia in March 2005 (software was installed in November 2004) and it took about a year to really get going. But, bear in mind that was with stable content. Here with 14 we have (as you all know) not only changing content, but changing elements to the content. Wikis adhere to a snowball effect. The longer they are around, the more is added, the more helpful they become. We're rolling along nicely. The changes to the whole structure of 14 has proven very difficult to say the least, but we're rolling on.

Second, as Fusionx stated, we made some major changes to how we did things the first time around with respect to how the wiki handles data. Understand, with the 11 wiki, everything is static. Say you add a crafted weapon to the game. You need to create that page, then update all associated pages. That means all item pages being used as ingredients. Potentially pages where the completed weapon is used as an ingredient. All quest or mission pages where the item can be acquired. All crafting lists (this could be more than one list). All weapon lists (this is often more than one list). If a mob drops the weapon also then the mob page needs to be updated, along with the zone or dungeon page where that mob is from. Etc. etc. etc. One item could necessitate a dozen or more edits after the page itself is created. This can be a very real problem as the game goes into year 2, 3 or 4, let alone year 8, 9 or 10. The 11 wiki was able to keep up for a time, but it became increasingly difficult as time went on. And this was a problem we wanted to solve.

The way we solved that was somewhat complex on the back-end, but as Fusionx stated, it means that data resides in one place only, and then the other pages grab that data and the wiki keeps itself updated automatically. While this concept might be easy for a database site, it is not for a wiki. Basically what we have created this time around is a user edited database. So if you add an item with a recipe - all ingredient pages will update. If you update a monster page with a new drop, that item page will now reflect that it is dropped by a mob (and the mob's level and location) - plus the zone pages will update, mob family pages will update, etc. etc.

This is, IMO, a massive advantage over conventional wikis. Wiki's tend to pretty easily fall into disrepair or obsolescence - and we wanted to avoid that. That might be OK with a static product/game - but not great for an MMO. The downside to this system is that the data entry is different (IMO easier, but certainly different than a standard wiki).

Instead of a blank page where you can just type and you see what you type, most things get added via a template. It is the template that is doing all of the above dirty work keeping everything updated across the wiki. It also means that you need to know where the data is stored (since it is only in one place). If you are on an item page and want to update a particular drop rate, you need to do it on the mob page - since that is where that data resides. I certainly get why this can cause confusion - and will think about ways to make knowing where to go easier. But it comes with the system and frankly I think after a minimum of effort knowing where the info is becomes pretty self-explanatory.

Anyway, that's maybe more info than was needed, but I want people to understand why we departed from the static approach we took with FFXIclopedia back in 2004.

Third, on why stuff is missing. Goes with the above a bit - its a slow process, especially on some of the more unique things like some of the raids and such. But again, I don't think it is fair to pick out a missing page as if that page exists somewhere else. Sure we don't have an Aurum Veil page, but does anyone? Does anyone have any zone pages except the wiki? Anyone else even have a Gridania page? Let alone Greatloam Growery page or Hyrstmill page? I get that you can find some missing info, and we're working to fill in gaps (and anyone could put something on that page as a start even if they didn't want to mess with templates - although looking at The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak would be an easy place to start) but not sure selecting some missing information from a wiki that already contains more information than any other site is particularly fair.

Finally, as for layout or finding content. As before, can't please everyone, so we try our best. We'll continue to look at the visuals, but have been really spending out time trying to keep up with an ever-changing structure as dictated by SE. As for finding content, if you have comments on the right side navigation I would love to hear them, as that is a very easy fix. In fact, you can actually create your own personalized navigation very easily. Just log in and go to http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Sp...MyPage/Wikinav and add * for each article/link (more info found here under Wikinav).

Ok. Sorry for the length. Hopefully a few bothered to read it and of those that did found it helpful/informative/useful. :p

Zam has been useless since the first patch. What's new?

Also, Mooglebox.com is awesome!

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Originally Posted by Cthulhu

My highest ranking gripe with Gamerescape isn't a lack of missing pages, it's that any information seems so hard to actually get too. Even if every page and article was present and fleshed out it's just painful trying to find it. This was my opinion when I first checked it out pre-launch through the early stage of the game and I just checked back in with the site and I still find this to be the case. And the podcasts, oh my the podcasts. I'm giving Aetheryte Radio another shot as I write this so we'll see if things have improved.

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.. Search bar?

Just type gamerescape into google and start from there. Do you even realize how hard it is to even get into eorzeapedia alone if you do that? Once you do land on the main page for the wiki there is another pitfall. Where is they eyeball of an English language person going to to right away? Top left. What's occupying that real estate underneath the banner? Knowledge Base. Do any of the links in that section work? No. So yes the navigation bar and the search bar on the far right are fully functioning (I really like the nav bar). But look at the site design from the perspective of a first time user of your site and not of someone who has spent many hours of time adding content and editing pages.

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Originally Posted by Cthulhu

Just type gamerescape into google and start from there. Do you even realize how hard it is to even get into eorzeapedia alone if you do that? Once you do land on the main page for the wiki there is another pitfall. Where is they eyeball of an English language person going to to right away? Top left. What's occupying that real estate underneath the banner? Knowledge Base. Do any of the links in that section work? No. So yes the navigation bar and the search bar on the far right are fully functioning (I really like the nav bar). But look at the site design from the perspective of a first time user of your site and not of someone who has spent many hours of time adding content and editing pages.

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I generally agree. First one is part of major site overhaul which is problematic, but ideally we will be consolidating the wordpress and forum areas and have an easier way into each wiki. We recognize this, but don't quite have the coding volunteers right now to get this merged and done in a way that doesn't break what we have. But we have been and will continue to look into this. As for main page, I have been wanting to revise and simplify, but just haven't gotten around to it. We are still limited by mediawiki, but I think we can go for a more streamlined "google" search with maybe some drop downs to simplify. That said, those knowledge base links do work and can be helpful to get started too. So maybe some tabs could work. I'll see what I can throw together.

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Originally Posted by Fusionx

.. Search bar?

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Get your logic out of here, it's not appreciated 'round these parts.

They may as well give up on FFXIV...they not showing trailer!! lololololololol j/k <_< I'm just here to promote moogle box further.

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Originally Posted by gahoo

That said, those knowledge base links do work and can be helpful to get started too. So maybe some tabs could work. I'll see what I can throw together.

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Maybe it's just for me, or perhaps chrome (I didn't check with any other browser), but every single one of those links for the knowledge base sent me to the "That page does not exist" page.

Not trying to be hard on you guys or say "You suck", just trying to give you some feedback so the site is a little bit more user friendly.

Also FusionX
http://www.heilsound.com/
Just something to think about. I have a PR 781 from the amateur side, though I really want a PR 40 from the pro side. Classified ad has one up for $250, if only I wasn't so poor. =(

I personally enjoy the podcasts quite a bit, especially now with the two new hosts so that it's not just fusion talking to a wall.

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Originally Posted by Cthulhu

Also FusionX
http://www.heilsound.com/
Just something to think about. I have a PR 781 from the amateur side, though I really want a PR 40 from the pro side. Classified ad has one up for $250, if only I wasn't so poor. =(

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http://www.mxlmics.com/microphones/900-series/990/
I'm good ^^

Hmmm. Just downloaded your podcast to see if it was the streams compression and everything sounded fine, so I listened to the stream again and everything still sounded fine. I must have just been tired last night because it sounded like there were some fluctuations in the voice audio.

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Originally Posted by Fusionx

.. Search bar?

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That would be awesome if your Search function was worth a crap. As Cthulhu said, you're better off searching Gamerescape via Google. At which point you might as well include other sites who actually have information. I'm sorry to come off so harshly, but your total dismissal of feedback is the reason no one uses your site. If the average user has a difficult time using your site, it's your fault - not the user.

Thank goodness you have Gahoo on your team.

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Originally Posted by gahoo

I generally agree. First one is part of major site overhaul which is problematic, but ideally we will be consolidating the wordpress and forum areas and have an easier way into each wiki. We recognize this, but don't quite have the coding volunteers right now to get this merged and done in a way that doesn't break what we have. But we have been and will continue to look into this. As for main page, I have been wanting to revise and simplify, but just haven't gotten around to it. We are still limited by mediawiki, but I think we can go for a more streamlined "google" search with maybe some drop downs to simplify. That said, those knowledge base links do work and can be helpful to get started too. So maybe some tabs could work. I'll see what I can throw together.

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I look forward to seeing these changes. Big obvious drop down menus, like FFXIclopedia had back in the day, would make a huge difference. As would Google search!

Oops. To be clear, I didn't mean a google search, but a google search look (i.e. simple search section with minimal main page frills).

I think the search engine is actually pretty good and fully predictive based on created pages. Also, as before, the wiki has the info, and has more than any other site. I like criticism, but for criticism of content I'll need better info to see it.

I've had problems with the Search, and usually try to predict what the article will be called if I want any kind of results. It's not the worst, but I am Google spoiled. I think part of the problem is that the results often include code - that's very confusing, and I tend to breeze over it.

As far as content goes, it depends on what you're looking for. I typically turn to Gamerescape first if I'm looking for battle strategies (can I solo this quest?), but have found most things only include Journal entries and if I'm lucky a brief idea of the strategy. At that point I turn to YouTube and just watch videos of the fight.

Journal entries aren't exactly my idea of helpful content (I've got it in front of my face in game), but I understand that it's a wiki. I don't hold you guys responsible for any lack of content I may run into. It's the usability of the site I find an issue. Personally, I would be more prone to edit and create wiki entries if finding my way about weren't such a nightmare, which makes me wonder if that's the reason more people aren't doing it.

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Originally Posted by Reyn

As far as content goes, it depends on what you're looking for. I typically turn to Gamerescape first if I'm looking for battle strategies (can I solo this quest?), but have found most things only include Journal entries and if I'm lucky a brief idea of the strategy.

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Unfortunately I have the same complaint, and it's probably just due to the lack of contributors.

I always liked having the short testimonies people left on FFXIclopedia pages to look at. Stuff like "duo'd with some difficulty by a DNC and SCH," or "easily beaten with 4, BLM WAR DRG BLU." It made it easy and quick to get a good idea of how my friend(s) and I could low-man through a fight.

For reasons stated before I believe it will be sometime before people really can contribute in
any meaningful way. due to this game being in a constant flux of changes.

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Originally Posted by Fusionx

We have a group of people that put a lot of work and free time in to keep things up to date and accurate. Gahoo put it better than I ever could.

We are well aware that there isn't a page for the Aurum Vale and we have been working on components to put into a raid template such as: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Template_talk:Chest

Also, you know, you could always make the pages that are missing instead of complaining about them missing. Again, its not just the mods that run and populate the site. It's everyone. I feel like people keep missing the whole point of a community wiki. We're not a database site that updates itself.

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I usually go to these sites if I am really stuck which means I don't see fit to update these wikis eg I have only done Aurum Vale twice as AF speed run...so I couldn't add just that. GE do better walkthroughs because they seem to be the harder info to find of this game, so I still use your site, just wish there were more end game players focused on updating your site. thx

first off i want to thank Gahoo for that incredibly detailed post

i am a big supporter of mooglebox for many reasons, but i also am for multiple websites, because it gives life to a game many more are starting to feel dead

i will take a look into the wiki more now. and contribute where i can

thanks very very much for the heads up, and dont worry about derailing a ZAM thread. this is the kinda stuff i was hoping to accrue from this topic ^^

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Originally Posted by Reyn

That would be awesome if your Search function was worth a crap. As Cthulhu said, you're better off searching Gamerescape via Google. At which point you might as well include other sites who actually have information. I'm sorry to come off so harshly, but your total dismissal of feedback is the reason no one uses your site. If the average user has a difficult time using your site, it's your fault - not the user.

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I'm reading every post in the thread and hell, I'm the one that's been pushing to polish up the site UI, so please don't act like I'm dismissing feedback.

Search function has always worked fine for me, I've always found what I was looking for when using it so I really don't see what the problem is in that regard.