That's not true. You can clear anything without add-ons, including ultimates. If you need add-ons to clear the duties, then consoles players wouldn't be able to clear anything.
The difficulty curve in the game has... problems...
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05-14-2022, 09:05 PMXlantaa
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05-15-2022, 12:13 AMIssaellaI see the same ones up night after night in the PF that never even come close to filling. The only ones that ever fill are the Duty Complete/Reclear groups. I mean, that's anecdotal, but I've been keeping an eye on the PF for a couple weeks now and I don't think I've ever seen anything advertised like that and the prog groups that do get advertised rarely fill in less than an hour before just imploding and the listing disappearing.Quote:
Originally Posted by KariTheFox
A couple things on this. One mechanic cleared per night, that's all you can expect? That just seems absurd to me, there are 8-10 mechanics in every one of these raid bosses. So that's literally tens of hours for 1 clear, best case scenario. So it just seems like progging it in PF will just repeat in the same failures over and over from night to night due to the lack of uniformity between groups with people who can't complete previous mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
And again, anecdotally I have never really seen anything like what you guys are claiming being advertised in the PF. All I ever see is on one end of the spectrum Duty Complete/Reclear parties and on the other are half-full practice/prog parties that either never fill, or just keep getting relisted after half an hour minus 2-3 people from the previous run.
I don't have a uniform set of time I can set aside on a weekly basis to even attempt to join a static and it just seems like trying to prog any of the current Savages when I do have a couple hours to spare will just be an exercise in frustration. The chance of completion seems entirely based on getting lucky with a unicorn comp or a prog that manages to get everything right. How much time burned trying to find a group capable of progressing at all from one night to the next seems like it is an inordinate time sink. -
05-15-2022, 12:17 AMLianaThorneYou can prog through PF. Yeah it'll come with headaches, but it's not impossible. My old FC lead progged the entire tier that way, just have to be patient with people if you actually want your clears or host your own parties if you can't find something that fits where you're at prog wise. If it's worth it to you, stick it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
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05-15-2022, 12:27 AMIdowhatIwantWhen I was playing I would sometimes go and try to help people with P1S and P2S. I probably won't do it anymore cause a lot of the players I was going out of my way to help were very rude, and would get an attitude with me when I would try to explain mechanics to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
Best if you are your party leader, you create the party and set x standard whether is be prog for a certain mechanic or a clear group or what ever. If some one it holding you back simply replace them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
Personally I usually do all my progs blind with a friend so we will set up a PF and go at it blind for a night. Next day we will go ahead and maybe look up a guide (usually we already know the mechanics and don't need to) and we start working on a clear. It can take longer than having a static group, but that is why you are the party leader and replace people as needed. -
05-15-2022, 12:38 AMMagikazamThe mods' arms race you talk about only happened in WoD when by the last raid tier, it was required to have addons due to how complex the fight had become, they then decided to simplify future fights while at the same time reducing what people could do with add-ons. On top of that, WoW don't have the same kind of ''normal'' mode FFXIV have. You simply need to know what skill does and you can't expect some sort of communication and leadership in PUG group. People don't want to hop on coms with stranger just so they can clear Shiva Extreme or something of the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt47
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05-15-2022, 12:50 AMRilifaneFirst off: I never said anywhere that you'll only be able to one mechanic per evening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
Right now you're so caught up in your belief that Savage is an insurmountable task and that it's hopeless trying to clear it in PF that you're interpreting everything that way.
What I said is that there are some meme mechanics in PF because they tend to hold up groups a bit longer and that I rarely see a PF NOT getting past it within the evening. I never said that it's the ONLY mechanic you'll see within the evening once past it nor have I said that every PF is like that.
You're still making a lot of assumptions about something you haven't actively tried.
Anecdotally I spent 4 tiers (all 3 ShB tiers and the current EW tier) PFing quite a bit and not just reading PF descriptions or checking names and every "helpers welcome" party usually had 2-3 helpers minimum. Sometimes it was only one person still needing the clear and the rest were helpers. The parties don't have "We're a bunch of pros that will help you learn this fight and teach you everything" in their description, they are regular "practice" parties with a "helpers welcome" in the description in addition to things like "bring macro" or "we have markers" or "R1 flex". Perhaps that is the reason why you missed it.
Sometimes people leave and that is normal. PF is a hop on/ hop off thing precisely for people like you that can't set aside a fixed amount of time every week on the same days; some people only have an hour, some people want to progress faster, others notice that they aren't as sure with mechanics as they thought and leave.
You are also free to make your own party, set whichever mechanical requirement you want (e.g. "numbers onwards") and therefor setting the prog speed, welcome helpers and replace people you feel are holding you back. If you're only looking at parties from others you'll have to take what you get and may need to deal with someone that keeps failing something not getting replaced.
As it is endgame content, it's not unreasonable to spent 10 hours and more on a boss, depending on thr turn. P1s and p2s can be cleared within one evening respectively if you have a couple of helpers that know what they're doing; seen that countless times during all tiers I PF'ed. You'll spend longer on p3s because add phase and FoF tends to hold up PF a bit longer. And obviously even longer on p4s as that's the final boss of the tier.
If that is too long for you then yes, I suppose the time spent/ reward is not to your liking - doesn't make it bad, just your preference of generally wanting to get things a little faster than that. But considering it is the 2nd highest difficulty of any content in the entire game, it's reasonable.
I have to ask: are you really concerned about the difficulty increase from Ex to Savage or are you concerned that PF will hold you back because you deem it too unreliable for you to make progress? -
05-15-2022, 01:46 AMColt47Well, yes that is the point. On NA servers the lack of leadership in PF content is a constant problem and people don't want to hop into communications if they don't need to for all sorts of reasons, which is why statics ended up being formed. However, that's not the problem with the difficulty curve. The difficulty curve is related to hidden game design, where developers introduce mechanics that are meant to make up for the fact that we as players do not possess all of our senses in the game. The reason they flash the attack zones for enemies is because we don't have the ability to predict where an attack can land based purely on the enemy, and due to flashy effects and visuals from our own attacks, basing the direction and nature of attacks on what the enemy is doing via motion is nearly impossible, hence why many bosses get "bigger" than the player characters since they have to be seen over spell effects and other characters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magikazam
This leads to the second visual clue which is applying a name to an ability and a cast bar where we have time to look at the name of the ability. Once the attack goes off, you then mentally connect the dots to the name of the ability and the effect it has on the arena.
Now in the game itself, they obviously don't show the area of effect anymore in savage the same way they do in normal content, so they attempt to bridge this via the Extreme fights and Unreal content, where the attack area gets flashed for a short time, but you have to rely more on the knowledge of what the attack is and what the visual queue is outside of orange flashy floor markings.
This would work fine... if EX fights were not optional content that could be skipped and people had to clear them to continue in the savage tier, but because they are there is a gap between savage and normal content. Since the skill floor got raised by greatly simplifying the abilities that players use on characters it also means that EX fights become more trivial and now the new baseline is the base savage tier, which lacks the visual transition that the EX fights were supposed to originally provide.
The other issue is the crazy amount of ramping that happens in difficulty going from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fights in savage. The game design team can't do anything about social issues or problems with finding groups, but content like savage should be doable in about two and a half months to clear for a group going at least 3 days a week. Going from PF that definitely did not happen, with many groups getting completely walled on p3s for a month at least. A lot of this is due to the reliance of the fights on completely removing certain design elements meant to support players in learning, and the other half is from using mechanics that actively punish players far too harshly for failure. Yes, the fight should only be completed if people can stay alive through it while keeping dps up, but no one can progress on a fight if the fight ends with one person dying to a mechanic only 5 minutes into a fight, since no one can see the later mechanics to even begin learning the fight.
As a person who is leading a static and learning this content, savage would be completely impossible for 90% of the players doing savage without having streamers and other folks with far more time writing out lesson plans, taking notes, and doing all the same tasks as a paid instructor at an educational institution.
Also going to point out that having rewards that are effectively upgraded versions of the normal raid gear creates the sense that savage is a progression of the normal raids, which it is not. If savage mode is supposed to be a mode for those that want a challenge, why would you want to have people who are interested in completion go out of their way to do it, considering that the matching weapon for the armor set is only available in the savage version? -
05-15-2022, 03:18 AMIssaellaIt it that PF is so unreliable I don't think there is much if any chance of completing it at all even if I can manage the mechanics because I then have to find a group of 7 other people who can perform at that level. The likelihood of achieving that with random assemblages of people from PF seems unlikely to the extreme. Especially when I've never even touched Savage content before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
Seem my above point. I have zero experience in Savage content. How would I possibly have enough knowledge/experience to lead a prog party? Let alone one that has any chance of completion?Quote:
Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant
This is essentially the only reason I'm even interested in doing it, there are two skins in p2s I want the dyeable versions of, that's it. And the only way to get them is to slam my head against a wall for untold hours with slim hope of even getting a clear let along getting lucky enough for a coffer or 6/12 clears for tokens. You are putting two disparate groups together with vastly different skills and motivation into the same content with no other way to obtain the rewards. I remember reading another thread a while back with a statement related to chasing a carrot on a stick only a lot of people will throw away hours and hours and never get any kind of reward (carrot) at all. And by gating the dyeable gear behind Savages the design is telling you "hey you got normal down now move to savage".Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt47
And this is the point I and other have been making in this whole thread that a lot of people don't seem to grasp. If you have zero experience with Savage then the difficulty is so high above any previous content as to feel like there is no starting point that will eventually lead to completion. And there is no gradual lessening of difficulty over the life of the current tier that would conceivably allow people who are behind/late to start to catch up. You are stuck starting at the beginning with only other people who are similarly behind/less experienced to bash your head against a wall until the next tier comes out and there is no one doing the content at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt47
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05-15-2022, 03:51 AMKariTheFoxOkay, here's what you do. Make a learning/prog PF, and write down the specific mechanic or phase you want to work on - and then also write "0-1 chest, experienced players welcome", and make sure to uncheck the "Weekly Reward Unclaimed" box when you make the PF. Now the player pool that can join the PF won't just be people who haven't cleared the fight yet, but also experienced raiders who are bored and happy to teach/help learn a fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
It's true that the curve is a bit wonky in places (though I think the step from Hydaelyn EX to P1S is actually pretty smooth), nobody starts out being experienced with savage content. The only way to learn the fights is to practice them until you're familiar with them. Even in a group that is doing poorly, you can make sure to focus on yourself and your own performance. Everyone except you died to one mechanic? Try to stay alive long enough to see the next one and execute whatever it needs of you.Quote:
And this is the point I and other have been making in this whole thread that a lot of people don't seem to grasp. If you have zero experience with Savage then the difficulty is so high above any previous content as to feel like there is no starting point that will eventually lead to completion. And there is no gradual lessening of difficulty over the life of the current tier that would conceivably allow people who are behind/late to start to catch up. You are stuck starting at the beginning with only other people who are similarly behind/less experienced to bash your head against a wall until the next tier comes out and there is no one doing the content at all.
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05-15-2022, 04:08 AMIssaellaLiterally anyone who has done any previous Savage content before is lightyears ahead of people just starting. This is where the problem/disconnect fundamentally lies IMO. Not only do you need to wrap your brain around the mechanics of a specific raid boss you first have to wrap your brain around how Savages in general work and how completely unforgiving they are to even a single mistake. All this with no starting point of knowledge and no method of gaining it except constant and repeated failure. You can't lower the learning curve with gear. You can't lower it with addons without risking your account. You can't lower it really with more experienced player because you have no frame of reference to build on. Even joining a Savage prog you are expected to have a baseline of knowledge and experience that there is really no way to obtain without having done Savage before. Anyone who is trying to get into Savage content now is the weakest link in any prog party, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by KariTheFox
Honestly, I don't begrudge people just starting Savage the crutch that some of those addons provide, at least it would give a frame of reference and a baseline of competence that might make them more confident moving forward. I sometimes feel it would be a lot easier to just use them for the clear, get what I want, and then be done with it so I can go back to doing other things. But alas, I'm not risking my 4k+ hours of progress on a arbitrarily enforced ToS violation. -
05-15-2022, 04:17 AMRilifaneThere is nothing to lead in any PF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
Creating a party doesn't mean you have to do call outs, answer questions, be ahead with mechanics, offer advice and corrections, provide macro or markers or anything of that sort. All it means is that you can set the requirements as you desire (ilvl, classes, other options, description) and have the option to kick someone if they don't perform according to the standards you set.
Many people creating a practice party in PF don't even have markers or a macro or any clue about what's going on. They just created the party, that's it. And nobody expects anything from them.
You just set it to "practice", uncheck "Duty Complete" and "Duty Complete (Weekly Reward Unclaimed)" as these two options prevent people without a clear from joining, add "helpers welcome" and "bring macro/ markers" if you don't have but want them and you're done.
Once you're confident with certain mechanics you add "from mechanic X onwards" next time you set up PF.
All these misconceptions you have come from a lack of experience but clinging to them won't help you. Why not believe people that are telling you otherwise from experience and be glad that it's not nearly as gloomy as you thought it to be and give it a go?
I created plenty of parties during my 1st tier in ShB, it's not complicated and nothing was expected from me because creating a party doesn't mean anything. And there are plenty of "7 other people" out there who perform the mechanics just fine.
And I agree with Kari that the difficulty curve from Hydaelyn (and Endsinger) Ex into p1s is really smooth. The biggest difference between those is that the dps check for p1s would be a bit tighter but this late into the tier almost everyone is at least 590 from augmented crafted and helpers are usually BiS. So not much to worry about on that front. There definitely IS a lessening of the difficulty throughout the tier, both through better gear and more helpers.
Right now you're the only one holding yourself back by stubbornly clinging to the belief that it's hopeless, that it's all pointless "bashing your head against a wall", unfair increase in difficulty and so on.
Not the game, not PF, not the difficulty, not the difficulty curve.
I get it, you're only after dyeable glam and seem upset that you have to tackle endgame raiding for it. But you are entirely capable of getting it. Yes, this late into the tier. In PF.
Is it worth it? That's your choice to make. -
05-15-2022, 04:39 AMLianaThorneFor someone who's never done savage you're talking a lot like you have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
You have people telling you it's possible and has been done. Let go of your fear and actually try it instead of holding on to a tight grip of assumptions. Fresh progs exist and even blind progs where knowledge of the fight prior isnt even required. Again, give it a try instead of arguing with people who have actually done it. Thanks. -
05-15-2022, 04:42 AMIssaellaI'm going to be frank, why would anyone join a party like that? It would have zero chance of success or progressing at all? It's not only wrangling a group of cats, but it's essentially say "f' it let the cats run around and do whatever they want". If I were going to join a PF group for prog for p2s then I wouldn't touch a group like that with a ten foot pole. It would in no way assist me in gaining experience or knowledge. I would expect that someone leading a group would at least have some idea what is going on and how to help with issues beyond just hoping more experienced people can join and sort it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
My experience PuGing Unreal on my alt would beg to differ with you. Having it on farm on my main and then trying to PuG it exclusively in Duty Complete reclear/retell parties on my alt is frequently infuriating. And that is only in groups that everyone has ostensibly cleared the encounter before. That is really what I'm basing a lot of my trepidation on truthfully. If I can't even expect baseline competence from people that have cleared something not to make everything miserable/harder than it has to be, then what hope do I have for Savage? And I am by no means exempting myself, who has no experience at all. And compared to Unreal/Ex the margin for error might as well be zero.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
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05-15-2022, 04:55 AMKariTheFoxBecause, if you set it up to include people who have already gotten thier weekly clears, you will draw from experienced raiders who actually enjoy teaching the fights, probably cleared them all tuesday night, and are bored out of thier minds because their group isn't progging Ultimate that night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
I personally know a few highly skilled raiders who spend s lot of thier time teaching fights that they cleared week one, simply because they find it fun to teach people. -
05-15-2022, 05:36 AMIssaellaI guess this is another fundamental disconnect as to what PF is supposed to be in this game. Coming from WoW if you list a PuG raid you are expected to lead that raid. At the bare minimum you should have the experience to know most of the fight you are trying to PuG and tell people what they should be doing if needed. Listing something and then expecting others to pick up the slack feels extremely selfish to me and wouldn't have much chance of sucess in my experience. I would expect the same thing in any group that I would join, let alone volunteer to lead.Quote:
Originally Posted by KariTheFox
And as a side note, one of the things that absolutely kills me about Savage is that if you have people who are experienced then you are giving up half or all of your chance at a reward. The game literally penalizes you for including people in the group who have cleared. So you either have to eat pavement in hopes of getting a clear with similarly inexperienced people or call in assistance (if you even know anyone who can) and cut your chance of reward in half or lose it completely. What kind of sense is that? -
05-15-2022, 05:55 AMColt47Who spent the time to set up the party in pf, save the necessary markers, goes through setting the strategy being used, puts the markers down to make sure everyone knows where they are standing before the first pull, sets up the expectation as to what is to be accomplished, and has to suffer when someone, not saying you, but maybe you, decides that you don't like the fact the group wiped twice one or two mechs before the one in the PF, and immediately leaves, having to put the entire party up again and having to repeat the process?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
That's being a leader and showing willingness to organize and prepare a team. And yeah, you DO actually provide corrections and information when things go south, not break up and try again. -
05-15-2022, 06:05 AMgame_enjoyer
for me the issue wasn't (and still isn't) the difficulity involved in clearing ex/savage/ultimate fights. i'm confident if i had the desire to clear them i could. however, the requirements for me clearing them are gated behind terminology i have not/had not heard before, and also the patience of 7 other players. it takes me a lot longer to pick up mechanics than other players, i admit that. but as a result, i have been unable to find a group to clear with that has left me with the feeling that i should continue to clear. even with BiS as a reward, i have no desire to attempt savage or ultimate. it's far beyond what i want out of the game, simply because there is no middle ground. it feels like it's either dungeon running or raiding and let me tell u i have progressed past the point where dungeon running is enough to keep my attention. perhaps this is a personal problem, but i have also encountered many other people that say the same thing: the game is too difficult to parse when it comes to MMO terminology insofar as new players to the genre are concerned. it feels like if you are new to raiding you are at a disadvantage simply because things are unfamiliar to you.
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05-15-2022, 06:19 AMIssaellaI feel almost exactly the same way. I can faceroll Expert in 15min, maybe 20 with a first timer, there has been zero challenge since January. Same basically goes for the current Unreal, I cleared week 1 and had it on farm since then every week on two characters. But the level of knowledge expected to move into Savage for the first time is so far beyond that as to be completely inadequate or even know where to start. I can barely parse half the abbreviations in most PF groups and then the rest just say "usual PF strats" assuming everyone knows what those are. It's not just the terminology, but the sheer number of mechanics you have to learn to have even a chance at clearing a Savage when it's current without any previous knowledge or any stepping-stone difficulty is beyond daunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by game_enjoyer
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05-15-2022, 06:19 AMColt47Yeah, this has been a problem for a while now. Obviously the dev team or the team lead over there doesn't think so but the way the loot system works contributes to the problems over on the NA servers at the very least. If you join a static for example you basically give your soul to that group and can't even help another group without stepping on the toes of both thanks to the system. If the loot was a personal lockout system things would improve immensely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
I don't remember even why they made the system the way they did or if they ever bothered to say anything about it, but I've assumed that they originally put it in place to discourage groups selling clears to others. It doesn't really do that and mostly just makes this a whole lot more frustrating and inflexible in terms of when and with whom people do savage with. -
05-15-2022, 06:32 AMRilifaneAnd where exactly did I say that someone should not provide corrections if they are knowledgeable enough about the fight to do it? Or to break up a party because things go south?Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt47
You confuse setting up a PF with leading a party.
Those two are not connected by default.
While many people that create a PF also happen to provide markers and a macro it is not a requirement because creating a party doesn't make you into the leader in the sense of guiding everyone and providing help. By that logic everyone who is still at prog stage would need to hope for someone who has already cleared to create a practice party to join - which is not the case. Everyone is free to create a party, state what they want to practice and whether they need markers/ macro or not.
If a helper joins, they are most likely the most experienced and will also most likely 'lead' the party or rather provide corrections. They will also have markers, a macro or correct something about what other people brought if they see an issue with that - and all that is entirely possible without having created the party.
Setting up a PF, writing "practice from start, please bring markers & macro. helpers welcome" is a very common description and these parties are perfectly capable of making good progress, with or without helpers.
It also quite common for someone that is not the party leader to post a macro or place markers.
It is, again, quite common for someone not being the party leader to correct strats someone, party leader or not, suggested.
So I stand by it: you are not automatically leading a party simply because you set up PF. The person setting up PF decides what is going to be practiced and has the option to kick people if they think they're holding the party back or cause drama - and that is all that comes with setting up a PF. Nothing more, nothing less. -
05-15-2022, 06:37 AMColt47Just double checked your old post and realized you were in fact just talking about setting up a PF party. I apologize on that one. Albeit, most people who are setting up PF parties typically intend to lead them or should have the mindset they are leading them unless they got someone coming along who is going to do the leading. Otherwise it usually turns into a chaotic mess that goes no where, but sometimes people literally just want to build confidence that they've seen the first two mechanics or something to get things kicked off. Strictly talking about ones for savage and EX content on this and not stuff like hunts and all the other things. People literally throw groups up for casual content sometimes because they got to do blue mage things or kill 50+ hunts in a train.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
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05-15-2022, 06:48 AMIssaellaPretty much everything you said in this post is the opposite of my experience/expectation coming from half a dozen MMOs over 20 years. You list, you lead and you had better know the fight or everyone is going to bail in a couple pulls at best or laugh you out of your own party. You post something "practice from start, please bring markers & macro. helpers welcome" and expecting others to join and do all the leg-work is begging for a clear/carry at best and would get you accused of being a leach in pretty much any other MMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
For casual content, sure, thrown up a BLU group, or a farming party, or Hunt train, or world bosses. I do that all the time, heck I'll even lead a DR run as long as people follow the rules and bring essences/actions. But for endgame content I have a level of expectation from a party leader that is more than "I listed the party, hur hur". -
05-15-2022, 06:59 AMRilifaneThen perhaps it is time to stop clinging to experiences in other MMOs and pretend they apply to everything?Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
Because that seems to be your real issue: you made some experiences with something that can losely be compared elsewhere and now applying it to something else without having practical experience and despite everything several experienced people told you and refuse to acknowledge that maybe different games have different approaches and that they can *gasp* even work.
I've never seen anybody laugh at someone setting a PF with that exact descriptions and I've hopped into plenty of them. They are simply regular learning parties late into the tier that welcome experienced people.
Don't make everything into something negative. Welcoming help is not the same as expecting a carry. I've seen more carries in clear parties than in practice from start parties - the people in the latter are generally very willing to learn and take corrections and advice to heart.
If you don't want to create a PF without extensive experience with Savage raiding that is your decision.
But don't assume others can't have success just because they didn't do it your way.
Several experienced raiders that PF'ed plenty of times said their piece. Take it or leave it.
You're welcome to cling to your "But it has to be impossible because I think so" belief - but I guess you won't be getting your glam. Nobody to blame but yourself.
I'll stop wasting my time convincing you that you would be perfectly capable of getting that dyeable glam you want so much by simply hopping into PF as an inexperienced raider. That's not my job.
We have given you everything you need, the rest is up to you. Best of luck with p2s.
All good and honestly, most of the time the everyone in the party, including the person who set up the PF, has markers saved and most people also have the macro saved. Someone posts it and the rest usually says they'll steal it if they don't already have one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt47
If someone is new to all this, a "new to this" in the descriptions helps to avoid giving off the wrong impression but there is nothing wrong to create a PF without extensive experience to kick things off and, as you said it "building confidence" - would be a shame to gate people from getting started just because nobody experienced happened to have already created a party that fits their bill.
In some rare cases you actually get 8 people with no knowledge beyond a guide and little experience in general. Some turn into chaos, some make genuinely impressive prog by acting in concert. -
05-15-2022, 07:47 AMPacketdancerExcept overgearing stuff does make a difference. If you are all in the minimum gear for a fight, yes, a couple of deaths can be a huge problem. If your group has more gear than the fight requires, though, then a death or two... or five ...doesn't necessarily preclude a clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
Yes, there are a lot of pass/fail mechanics where it's instant death for the one failing; there are fewer where it's pass/fail where failure means a wipe. (P4S phase 2 is a notable exception, since you pretty much do need everyone up to do the mechanics. But P4S phase 2 is also, y'know, the final fight of the tier, so...)
Honestly, I can think of only really one mechanic in P2S where one player failing it mechanically can cause an instant party wipe: Predatory Avarice. Yes, there are places where a tank can wipe the party (by not being in the Coherence stack, or by dropping a tankbuster on the party), or a healer can do so (by failing to heal folks up sufficiently before unavoidable damage), but that's true in every fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
It's possible for a tank to wipe an alliance raid if they're really determined.(Please stop spinning Mr. Angry Eyeball in WoD, tanks.)
But in terms of mechanical execution? Someone dying in Kampeos Harma (e.g. the sewer-horse's limit cut) doesn't mean a wipe. Someone dying just before Channeled Overflow does usually mean someone else will die, but not necessarily that the party will wipe.
The only place I can think of where a failure of a mechanic in P2S is a guaranteed wipe is if the DPS who should run off to the side during Predatory Avarice instead stacks with the party, thus blasting everyone else into the death wall.
I mean, there are demonstrably mechanics -- especially in the second half of P4S -- where if someone's down it can mean a party wipe. But you'd be surprised what you can limp through with well-geared DPS, determined healers, or a well-timed healer LB3.
I promise you this isn't true. I have seen more than a few clears in PF which aren't even in the same timezone as "got everything right".Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
*quiet healer PTSD noises*
There are still plenty of folks doing the tier, at least on my data center; I admit I can't speak for yours. But there are people gearing up alt jobs, people gearing up alt characters... sure, many of those are weekly reclear parties, but there's also people running learning parties. I know, because I'm one of those people!Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
I have nothing I need from P3S any longer, but I'm putting together a teaching PF group for it tomorrow. Some friends haven't gotten past adds in the fight with their static, so I figure a teaching party gives them a chance to learn a bit further (and for others interested in learning to do so). And ones I've done previously for fights in this tier have gone well.
I also often see prog parties for fights earlier in the tier in PF, because there are people who only just got to endgame and who still want to do the fights. Heck, when folks aren't going for a two-chest clear, I'll often join ones I see over the weekend, to try to help.
To go back to the first line of your post...
I won't lie, I looked at savage the same way before I started on endgame content. (This is my third tier, for reference; I started as a shiny new baby raider in the second Eden tier.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
Now, while I say you're overestimating the difficulty, I will also admit that casual content did not prepare me for savage; historieancienne and others (including you) are correct that there's a little bit of a weird ramp up from casual content into on-level extremes, and thence on into savage. I definitely struggled at first; it wasn't like I queued in and it all just... clicked and I was clearing content.
(Put bluntly, I was not good.)
But the thing is, that was almost more a matter of being intimidated by savage and getting in my own head to the point I got flustered than it was due to savage actually being some sort of insurmountable challenge which only the best-of-the-best can tackle. I mean, I'm definitely not the best of the best, but I'm still perfectly capable of clearing savage content.
Yes, you may struggle a bit at first; mechanics in savage are faster than in other content, with less warning, and stiffer penalties. But there is still a lot of leeway, more than you seem to think, and you absolutely do not need to be some image of perfection who never missteps in order to clear savage.
If you want to do savage, I promise you, you almost certainly can. And if you're having trouble finding groups to do it with in PF, a post in /r/FFXIVRECRUITMENT over on Reddit can probably help you find like-minded souls also trying to get into savage. (Or even experienced raiders done with the tier who enjoy teaching the fights.)
Whether or not savage is a daunting task, I will note that there are still options to get started. My FC has a static (with a roster that tends to shift from tier to tier) called the Rookie Raiders, or the "Rooks" for short.Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
The Rooks basically exist for folks in the FC who want to get a start on savage; experienced raiders will step in and help the Rooks get started on a tier -- standing in as a member for a while and helping to raid-lead -- and help provide guidance even after stepping away to let one of the new Rooks take lead. Generally once a tier ends, that set of Rooks feel more confident in savage and go on to other statics; a new roster of Rooks eventually coalesces, and the experienced raiders -- including former Rooks -- will be there to help the next set.
The Rooks have been around since early Shadowbringers; I got my own start in savage as one of the original Rooks, when we first started this up. (And I acted as raid-leader/mentor to one of the later incarnations.) At least two entire statics have started with former Rooks as their founding members. It's been a good lower-stress way for folks to get a feel for savage.
I'll bet that if you reach out on /r/FFXIVRECRUITMENT -- or find the appropriate Discord for your DC's raid community, or look around in your DC channels on the Balance, or whatever -- you'll find others who are also interested in starting with savage. Find a mentor or two willing to provide advice, and I suspect you could create your own Rooks. -
05-15-2022, 08:56 AMIssaellaSo basically you are saying that I should take what you say at face value despite every experience I've had over 20y of playing MMOs. What you are trying to convince me of is 180* from anything I have experienced. I really can't believe you have seen people with no Savage experience PF clears in any kind of reasonable time frame or at the very most you could count them on one hand. Not without considerable help from a FC or multiple experienced players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
EDIT - I encountered one of you magical, "fresh prog, looking for help, advice welcome" PF parties a while ago and decided to keep my eye on it while doing other things. It opened with 2 people, after 45 minutes it had 4 people (1 tank, 3 DPS), it evaporated into aether when the 60 minute time was reached with 5 people (1 tank, 4 DPS) and wasn't relisted. So I find it rather hard to believe even finding a prog group to start from scratch can be done without a massive time investment of just sitting around and waiting this late in the tier.
Welcoming and not having any idea what you are doing and expecting someone else to lead is absurd. Don't assume just because you've seen it happen successfully means it happens regularly or isn't exceedingly rare. Like I said in a previous post I can't even assume baseline competency/experience doing Unreal clears on my alt some weeks. I would assume it would be that x10 in any kind of Savage prog in the PF unless I get exceedingly lucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
Any death is a huge drop to success chance, multiple deaths mean you might as well wipe and start over unless you are outgearing it by 20+ ilvls from what I've read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Packetdancer
Just from memory of watching clear videos and looking at the wiki:
Spoken/winged Cataract - misjudge/misread = death regardless of gear (I have a hell of a time seeing the head orientation to the body in normal)
Predatory Avarice - Misjudge = guaranteed wipe, regardless of gear
Channeling Overflow - Not fast enough to find your partner/off even a little = 2 guaranteed dead regardless of gear.
Kampeos Karma - mistake = wipe, 2 hits are not survivable at any gear level
Tainted Flood + Channeled Overflow - mistake = wipe regardless of gear
All of those are repeated, most of them in combination, any failure at minimum = death, more likely a wipe.
So assuming all that, how exactly does overgearing at all help to have an easier time with the mechanics? The only thing is seems to help with is unavoidable damage. The avoidable damage is such that most if not all mistakes mean death/wipe regardless of gear level. So again, even a single mistake on any one of those over a 15 minute fight reduces your chance of clearing to virtually nil. -
05-15-2022, 09:01 AMRolder50
Man I was hoping this would be an actual post about the difficulty curve. Notably, how it goes from zero to 100 real quick. You do the MSQ, you do the dungeons, none of which have any sort of actual challenge. You can blast through doing a half baked rotation and generally be fine, especially if at least one person in the group knows what they are doing. The next step after that is Extremes and suddenly the mechanics start to matter, and you can actually wipe! Seems to me like the jump from Dungeon snoozefest to Extremes scares a lot of people away from even trying. I'd like to see more content to bridge this gap, like maybe harder dungeon content that requires at least a little bit of thought. Hopefully the Criterion dungeons fill this area, but I'm not holding my breath.
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05-15-2022, 12:02 PMColt47I mean people were wiping and dying to normal mode content when this expansion launched, it's just that the fights used for normal mode have looser rules on what constitutes a win or a loss, and gear scaling heavily influences the difficulty as well as how often people do the encounter so the longer people are playing the game, the easier that content gets. Savage mode is a far stricter rule set than normal mode and EX fights use their own set of rules that are distinct from either savage or normal mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolder50
Savage: Attacks are not televised and only shown through cast bar and some gimmick involving the boss itself, such as a glowing cape or weird crystals. Surviving a mechanic is rare if near impossible for DPS, and surviving a mechanic is equal to taking a death penalty for 30 seconds. If the players cannot clear the content by 10 minutes or roughly that length, they lose the fight. Attacks are allowed to target players but generally are more strict in deployment. The fight is largely a puzzle that has to be understood through failure.
Normal: Attacks are clearly shown via warning markers on the ground. Attacks are allowed to target players and typically do target players to increase variation in attack patterns. Surviving a mechanic is expected, and the punishment for failure is a vulnerability stack. The only way players can die to these encounters is through taking too many vuln stacks or getting knocked off the arena. There is no time limit to complete the fight.
EX Trial: Attacks are clearly televised but only show for brief periods. Attacks are allowed to target players to increase variation, but generally they are more strict in deployment so as to avoid too much variation due to increased damage. Fights involve more pattern and puzzle solving. Failure on mechanics results in a vuln stack, and it is likely that a dps job will die to failing a mechanic without assistance or damage reduction. If the boss is not defeated within 10 minutes or around that number, the fight ends in a loss. The fight is largely a puzzle that has to be understood through failure.
The thing is that they intended EX fights to be the bridge between normal and savage, but as I stated before they raised the skill floor and now EX is just sort of it's own thing floating out there with unreal. Also the way they handle end game as a whole with the savage tier is done poorly as it has no tiers or scaling to accommodate the breadth of different play schedules and times people have who engage in it. The content shouldn't take someone more than two months to clear but unfortunately it ends up doing just that since many people can't dedicate a four to five night a week raid schedule with the same folks, and bless those that do because without them the vast majority of people doing savage likely couldn't even complete the content. -
05-16-2022, 01:11 AMColt47
So here is a question: Would anyone be opposed to having a system where savage is set up such that there is a savage, savage+, savage++, etc, where groups are required to complete the prior version to unlock the next version, and each step up makes the damage and healing checks tighter? Same rewards come from all the tiers and the only difference is how fast you get them. That sounds like a much better option than going with just one flat difficulty curve and completely locking out rewards for a huge swath of players.
E.g. base savage just gives a book, savage+ awards a single chest on the first two, savage++ awards a single chest on the third and two chests on the first two, and savage+++ is the full reward. Obviously this could be tweaked around, but it would at least give groups that have less time the ability to learn all the fights effectively with more forgiving dps and healing checks before trying to go into a higher tier. This would also cut out the need for a lot of third party tooling since groups could now cover all mechanics in an easier version before doing the full on version. -
05-16-2022, 03:55 AMIssaellaLiterally anything is better than the current system for people just starting. Where the only option is to fail 100x over while feeling progressively more like useless refuse holding everyone back while you cling desperately to the slim, infinitesimal hope that you may get lucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt47
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05-16-2022, 04:42 AMPacketdancerConceptually, am I opposed to it? No. Options are great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt47
From a practical standpoint? Yes. The problem is that this game's combat system does not scale well; adjusting damage/health/attack potency, etc. tends to change the fight in non-trivial ways. The practical upshot of this being that I do not see SQEX just making "difficulty settings" for savage content; they'd almost certainly feel they had to make the three "difficulties" individually-tuned-and-tweaked fights.
Which means instead of 8 fights (four normal-mode raids, four savage) per tier, they'd need to do 20 (four normal mode fights, four savage fights tuned for "savage", four savage fights tuned for "savage+", four savage fights tuned for "savage++", four savage fights tuned for "savage+++"). That seems like a really good way to make the combat design team get spread thin and for fight design to suffer.
So, from a practical standpoint, unfortunately, I have objections.
However, as I've noted in this thread, I do not think that's actually necessary. Savage is within the capabilities of most players in this game; they just need to be willing to practice a bit -- and to die along the way. It's not content you'll clear immediately when you start doing it -- and it honestly shouldn't be, either.
My first tier was, as I noted, the second Eden tier. I started out and was very bad. But by the end of that tier, I'd gone from "I have no idea what I'm doing and I'm dying a lot" to "Hey, I've gotten much better at playing my job; I'm doing 4x the damage I was when I started this tier, and I'm clearing the fights!"
My second tier, I went from "Okay, I know I can do savage" to "Okay, I now can learn mechanics quickly enough that I'm serving as shot-caller for groups I do stuff with, and I'm serving as one of the advisor/teacher folks to the current incarnation of the rookie static in my FC." (Though, alas, due to Family Crisis Stuff I had to quit the tier for about four months at one point. RL trumps game content.)
This tier, my third, I went from "Okay, I now can learn mechanics quickly enough that I'm serving as shot-caller" to "I am pushing on in party finder beyond where my static is, learning what other folks are doing for mechanics, and using those to figure out the ideal strats for the static." And also running teaching parties in PF.
There are many, many raiders more skilled than me. I define myself as "more an asset than a liability"; I will do damage, keep the party healed/alive, and do mechanics callouts simultaneously -- my damage will be solidly average, but it'll be there, and I'll keep folks alive to the best of my ability while making sure via callouts that they're in the right spot.
Even as an average raider, savage is well within my capabilities... and I suspect they're within those of anyone posting in this thread lamenting savage's difficulty.
And it does get easier as you progress the tier, because gear does make a difference; short of "everyone needs to do one specific thing or the party wipes" mechanics, the problem with mechanics failures/death is not the deaths but the loss of DPS (and thus missing an enrage check). As you gear up within a tier, those enrage DPS checks become easier to make even if there have been deaths or damage downs; better gear won't save you from a one-shot due to messing up a mechanic, but better gear will absolutely make it possible to clear a fight with things going badly wrong and a party having multiple deaths.
If you truly believe savage is some unachievable goal of impossible difficulty? If that's the attitude you go into trying savage with, where any failure isn't a learning experience but rather proof that you'll never clear, then it'll be a self-fulfilling expectation; you'll make savage impossible for yourself.
But at this point... the thread has many folks who do actively raid savage -- in statics or in PF -- talking about the fact that while savage isn't something you get the hang of overnight and immediately clear, it's something you will get the hang of -- and faster than you think. If our own personal experiences from inside the savage tier -- and how we learned to do savage -- aren't enough to convince the folks who believe savage is an insurmountable challenge... I'm not sure there's much else any of us can say, or to contribute to the thread.
I hope those of you who still feel that way can get past that impression of it, and find that not only is savage achievable but also enjoyable; I'm not sure that, at this point, there's anything the raiders in this thread can say to help with that which hasn't already been said at least once.
And while I can't speak to the raid scene in other data centers, if you're in Primal? Folks on the Primal Raid Community discord often organize learning parties -- formally so in the first part of the tier, with schedules and signups and all, and informally so later when folks are like "I really would like practice on <fight> and to get farther" or whatnot in the requests channel. Plus, there's plenty of people who'll hop into learning parties in PF, or set them up.
I've given all the advice and encouragement I think I can, so I'm going to bow out; I've got a P3S learning party that I promised to run for some folks in about 15 minutes anyway. -
05-16-2022, 04:51 AMIssaella
I tried to PF p2s his afternoon and got a party together - listed it as practice with no stipulations, at 590 ilvl. Took almost an hour to fill, after 4 wipes everyone left with 72minutes still left on the instance timer. We made it to Kampeos Harma on the last pull, and I just stood there in an empty instance wondering wtf happened. It was super helpful and informative and I look forward to doing it again. It did not feel remotely dispiriting or like a waste of 90 minutes of time just to have to start over from square-one, nope nope.
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05-16-2022, 05:33 AMIdowhatIwantMaybe it is not for you. You are also attempting to do this when most people are no longer messing with savage content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
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05-16-2022, 05:40 AMIssaellaAccording to everyone in this thread anyone can do it at any time, at any gear level, without addons, without experience, exclusively through the PF and saying otherwise makes you wrong and/or a negative Nancy and/or a quitter, etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant
You just have to be willing to eat pavement ad infinitum and apparently put 3x as much time into getting a party together than you spend actually progressing. Having no deaths on the first Channeling Flow after only 3 pulls, and seeing Kampeos Harma after only 4 pulls seemed like progress to me... I was wrong apparently. -
05-16-2022, 05:42 AMRolder50One thing I find crazy in this game is the sheer amount of time people will dedicate to EX or Savage on a per week basis. This tier, the static I was in did 3-4 hours a night x two nights a week, and that was plenty. Four or five nights a week makes some sense for Ultimate, but for anything less it just sounds ridiculous, barring world first people of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt47
Edit: And that's just for savage. EX usually just takes a single evening. -
05-16-2022, 05:50 AMgame_enjoyer
i ran p1s when it released with my fc and for a month straight i didn't get a single piece of gear. largely in part to our static having multiple people who would run it before the rest of us because they wanted to prog faster. every week it would be 1 chest runs. progging feels really, REALLY bad when u continue to see everyone else getting kitted out with BiS. the static folded before we even made it to p2s. i've got tomes, but tomes don't really help when they take 2 months to get 1 item
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05-16-2022, 05:54 AMLisSquid
The only difficulty curve problem this game has is that nothing in the entirety of the MSQ prepares you for what you'll see in Ex or Savage. It's a big spike. Low clear rates have nothing to do with the fights being dependent on addons, but that to do them you have to practice by doing.
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05-16-2022, 06:07 AMRolder50Honestly that's just a bad static. I would've jumped ship the moment one chest clears became the norm.Quote:
Originally Posted by game_enjoyer
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05-16-2022, 07:36 AMPacketdancerSee, this crosses a line. I'm fine with people trying to prog ahead of the static -- I actually do this, because as the shot-caller I want practice on mechanics we're not reliably seeing yet, so that I can know them well enough to call them.Quote:
Originally Posted by game_enjoyer
But when my static still needed gear from P2S, even if we were progging P3S, I would not go practice P3S before our first raid night of the week; once we'd cleared P2S as a group, progging P3S was fine... but if we were close to a clear -- if we were working on the last mechanic or enrage -- I would hold off on that until after our last raid of the week. Similarly, when we were progging P4S but some people still needed gear from P3S, I would wait until we'd gotten P3S down for the week before practicing P4S in PF.
Screwing your static out of a chest because you're impatient is just not being a good team player.
Now, if you discuss it with your static, that's different. I really wanted to unlock DSR in order to try it with some friends who aren't in my static. My static, as a group, was working on the phase 1 enrage of P4S, while I'd been at Curtain Call in PF.
I discussed with my static, and they decided the chances of a static clear of P4S this week were very low, and so when my FC leader's static needed a sub healer on Tuesday, I stepped in (and thus got my P4S clear and DSR unlock).
Yes, it meant we wouldn't have had 2 chests if we had blasted through the rest of P4S as a static, but 1) we did not do so, and 2) I'd discussed it with the static ahead of time and made certain everyone was okay with it. And going forward, I'll do reclears of P4S after we've finished as a static for the week, if necessary.
No, what we've been speaking against is the idea that savage is somehow this impossible goal if you didn't clear it right away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
In fact, I've pointed out repeatedly that gear makes a difference, when folks said that gear progression through a tier made no difference. The fights are possible in the base required gear; they are, however, easier to do in better gear, since you'll have better DPS (and thus better chances to still clear even with deaths or damage downs).
PF can be frustrating! It is also entirely possible to clear a tier in PF.
Don't sell yourself short; that is progress!Quote:
Originally Posted by Issaella
Yeah, it's always unfortunate when someone leaves the instance -- and of course, as soon as one person does, everyone else has to -- so frequently it only takes one malcontent or impatient person to nuke a PF group.
But don't view it as starting over from square one. You have now had experience with all the mechanics leading up to Kampeos Harma, which means the next party you create or join can be a cleanup party for that mechanic. And then you'll get that much further in the fight, and find a new mechanic to work on for the next time.
Savage is not a "do the whole fight in one learning session" type of experience.
You do note you made the party "with no stipulations"; one bit of advice I'll offer is that it is good to set expectations. When I run learning parties, I tend to set a specific mechanic -- usually based on where whoever asked me to run one is in the fight.
For instance, today's P3S party I ran for some folks that just finished up was stated as "Adds cleanup and prog"; we didn't really get to prog beyond adds, but folks who joined to get practice were doing the mechanics up to adds much more cleanly -- and getting nearly through adds more consistently -- by the end of the party than at the beginning. And some folks were later in the fight, but since they knew what they were getting into from the party description, those who were further along (or had cleared) were either joining to help those who were at that point, or to practice mechanics they had done but wanted to practice to be smoother at executing.
When we disbanded, it wasn't because anyone left in a huff, but because someone had stated ahead-of-time "Just as a note, I have to go in half an hour to do some stuff."
It helps to set expectations; if someone sees a "practice" and thinks it means 'practice the whole fight', they may be more likely to leave in a huff if it proves to be working on a specific earlier mechanic. And yeah, if a party says it's for a specific mechanic and people never make it there, it can get frustrating and someone might leave; that's part of the PF experience.
If you prefer a more consistent group than the PF grab-bag, I will once again recommend looking on /r/FFXIVRECRUITMENT or somewhere similar for a static. There are still some statics forming even now, because there are people only just getting to endgame and still wanting to do savage. -
05-16-2022, 08:50 AMIssaellaIt just feels like an enormous amount of effort to put in for 18min of progress. That's it, 4 pulls, 18min of playing the raid, I looked at the instance timer in disbelief when everyone just ~poofed~ without a word. And now all I can really look forward to is another however long to form/join a party with the requisite progress just to have it implode again in less than 20 minutes. It's not exactly like the PF is overflowing with p2s prog groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Packetdancer
I'm not saying I wont. I'm saying g** damn that is really disheartening... Like the end point after that doesn't feel any closer. -
05-16-2022, 11:04 AMIssaella
I forced myself to join another prog at Harma with zero hope of getting any farther. Progged for about an hour before someone had to leave. I managed not to wipe us and get the mechanic right after like 5 tries on Harma. Actually cleared Overflow and the second Overflow easier than Harma. Saw enrage once near the end (~25%) before we disbanded. I died, like a lot, a lot more than everyone else it seemed like, and still am clearly the weakest link.
But, it may be, minutely possible that I can eventually clear it. Enrage once at 25% is a long a** way from a clear, but it might not be impossible. It's still really f'ing hard though and the game does absolutely nothing to prepare you for it. And I'd be willing to put a large wager that I just lucked into a unicorn group that felt sorry enough not to kick me bringing paper bag tier DPS.
I'll keep trying I guess. I will withold my judgement on the feasibility until I actually get a clear though. I think there is an above even chance I end up in the old folks home (ie - the perpetual "seen enrage a bunch" groups, but never get a clear).