Delete the Mentor system or rework it.

I was expecting a more detailed post than just a sentence or two which only provides vague suggestions and little or no information on how mentors are actually "abusing" it in your opinion.

A lot of mentors answer the questions of sprouts and returners in the novice network, help them queue into dungeons faster and things like that. I've met plenty of sprouts who love the novice network.

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Originally Posted by YukiB

There's no reason for it to be exclusive to novices and mentors.

There's no reason novices should have to be invited.

There's no reason mentors and novices should be placed in it automatically if they're not interested in participating.

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If it was not exclusive it would have thousands of people in it, which would make it more chaotic than it already can be. Novices used to be invited automatically, but it invited bots so it was changed to require mentors to invite them. Mentors are not placed in it automatically and sprouts are prompted and can decline the invite.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

https://i.redd.it/6l6fedro2qw81.png

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Mentors are supposed to share their experiences with sprouts and returners. The experiences of each individual mentor can be different, but with up to 100 mentors in the novice network the answer the majority of them are giving is probably more reliable than the unusual ones. There isn't going to be a world where everyone agrees and everyone has the same opinion.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

Most mentors I've encountered either say nothing at all

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You make it sound like this is something bad. I stay silent for most of my dungeon runs because I don't feel like talking.

Every time I hear about bad mentors and NN I'm thankful Cactuar tends to have a pretty good NN. We got our share of memes and joking around but I don't think I've ever seen an instance where a sprout didn't get help. I know me and a bunch of other mentors in there always jump in to help if a sprout says they need someone to run something with them. Have I run into rude mentors before? Well, yeah, people are gonna be people. But most of them I've run into are either quiet or helpful. I've been playing since Heavensward and I think I have over 3000 mentor roulettes done so I've met a lot of other mentors. (I just really like doing the roulette even after getting the mount)

Really my only complaint with the current system is trade mentor being so easy to get so it can be difficult to get into NN to help sprouts. I get people not wanting to lose a global chat, but that's sadly FF14's fault for not incorporating one. I know on our server we made a Discord so new players are able to join that when they lose their sprout status. If mentors are being quiet in NN when someone asks for help, they're probably in the middle of something. I've been a lot less active in NN as I've been progging the new ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Niobee

I stay silent for most of my dungeon runs because I don't feel like talking.

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I think this has to do with the many buttons you already need to press anyway. The moments i notice most talking are at the start, the end, and after a wipe.

The end and wipes are usualy when feedback or excuses happen. And in extreme trials some people quickly just gave the general guide to explain the boss mechanics. For mentors themselve i rarely had any interaction, even if i sometimes asked about a mechanic. But i also think that this is how it should be, mentors that are aggressively trying to teach others are usualy not good as they dont seem to accept a learning step.

While I don't support dismantling the system. I am in favor of making it harder to obtain. As it stands currently novice networks are a cesspool of degeneracy and cliques. For example visit Siren's.

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

Every time I hear about bad mentors and NN I'm thankful Cactuar tends to have a pretty good NN. We got our share of memes and joking around but I don't think I've ever seen an instance where a sprout didn't get help.

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I don't know. I didn't hang out there often when I was on Cactuar, but I remember at least a few instances where mentors were way out of line. One of them involving a mentor saying that people would be put in a gas chamber. There were plenty of instances where new players were ignored as well or begged to be told how they could leave.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

The problem isn't that mentors are universally bad, honestly. The biggest problem is that you have plenty of folks who wear the crown like a status symbol, and the mentors actively trying to be helpful are generally so disgusted by the "LOOK I HAVE A CROWN I'M SPECIAL" crowd that none of us ever turn on the status except when Mentor Roulette forces us to. Which only further reinforces the crown's bad reputation.

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I always see this accusation and literally no one ever provides proof of it. Just once, I'd love to see someone show a mentor that has outright said, "I'm just here for the crown, screw ya'll newbs"

Even then, if you could actually find a single one, that doesn't justify outright despising the vast majority of mentors who do not have that attitude.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

despising the vast majority of mentors who do not have that attitude.

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And just what are you basing this on, because myself and many others have had plenty of experiences to the contrary?

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

Most mentors I've encountered either say nothing at all.

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As a mentor, I remain silent unless someone asks for help. I don't go out of my way to teach someone; let them learn on their own at first, and if questions arise, then I will be there. I know of a LOT of mentors that have this mentality, actually.

It's working fine in Japan, so don't expect any changes

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Right now it serves no purpose, 90% of mentors you meet are stuck up individuals that will strike out at you for no reason because their ego has gone to their heads.

Either start banning Mentors that abuse the title/crown or just get rid of the system all together since its so outdated and abused.

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Mentor is a switchable player status, intended to be used when the player wants to help others in something, so what you are saying doesn't make any sense - you are going against players who just want to help others at this point.

More than that, if you didn't know, when one gets mentor status, he is prompted with message that inappropriate mentor behavior shall be penalized.

And as conclusion, if one wants to help others, developers fully encourage it and design means to label yourself as someone who wants to do it, so if there is something wrong going on, it's up to players and not this particular feature of the game.

Mentor hate is the best way to farm upvotes and likes on social medias.
Well, after scions in casual attire, of course.

ZzzZZzzz so boring.

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

As a mentor, I remain silent unless someone asks for help. I don't go out of my way to teach someone; let them learn on their own at first, and if questions arise, then I will be there. I know of a LOT of mentors that have this mentality, actually.

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I'm the same way. There were too many instances of sprouts getting very upset if I tried to explain mechanics ahead of time because it was spoiling the experience. So I at least wait until some wipes happen or if people have questions. That way I'm not spoiling any surprises and people will have context for any mechanics if they need me to explain. The only exception is if I know there's a mechanic that's likely to kill the whole party and think a new player would want a heads up(ie Tidal Wave).

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Originally Posted by Chekopacheko

If the system were the problem it would not work anywhere, but it does in JPN servers. So probably, just probably, the problem is the NA community rather than the system itself

Also, if you find a toxic player (mentor or not) you can always submit a report, easier than asking for an entire system to be removed

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Tonberry had a great NN for years, then there were a select group of players that actively started kicking anyone who spoke Japanese from the NN, in an attempt to make it an English chatroom.
One of the players is now on OCE servers and is still as toxic as ever. hes been reported for years and nothing gets done.

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

I'm the same way. There were too many instances of sprouts getting very upset if I tried to explain mechanics ahead of time because it was spoiling the experience. So I at least wait until some wipes happen or if people have questions. That way I'm not spoiling any surprises and people will have context for any mechanics if they need me to explain.

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This is a point that a lot of people don't understand. I never had anyone get upset at me explaining the mechanics, because I know that some people will want to do the content blind. If they want to know the mechanics they will usually either look at an MTQ video or ask at the beginning. Rarely, it becomes necessary to explain the mechanics because we are wiping multiple times. If I think they didn't understand a mechanic, sometimes I explain it after we defeated the boss because then they are not blind anymore.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

And just what are you basing this on, because myself and many others have had plenty of experiences to the contrary?

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Because you and others become emotionally invested in it and you're more likely to remember negative situations vs the vast majority of neutral or good ones.

It's well established and backed by numerous studies. Look it up.

For example:

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The brain stores highly emotional memories longer than neutral memories. Negative memories are remembered longer because those memories are corresponded with high stress situations. From an evolutionary standpoint, it is important to remember a highly stressful situation in order to avoid it if it arises in the future.

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https://www.scienceabc.com/humans/wh...st-longer.html

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Originally Posted by Mitsuka_Souji

Mentor is a switchable player status, intended to be used when the player wants to help others in something, so what you are saying doesn't make any sense - you are going against players who just want to help others at this point.

More than that, if you didn't know, when one gets mentor status, he is prompted with message that inappropriate mentor behavior shall be penalized.

And as conclusion, if one wants to help others, developers fully encourage it and design means to label yourself as someone who wants to do it, so if there is something wrong going on, it's up to players and not this particular feature of the game.

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When the game put rewards like a mount where the only way to get it is mentor roulette is bad design.

When the game allows someone who did ifrit 1000 times, got 1500 commendations because they were healers/had cute glamour and paid for Job boosts to get the exact same statue to a player who has done every dungeons in the game at current level, several times, leveled up and mastering each role and has always been helpful, its bad design.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Because you and others become emotionally invested in it and you're more likely to remember negative situations vs the vast majority of neutral or good ones.

It's well established and backed by numerous studies. Look it up.

For example:



https://www.scienceabc.com/humans/wh...st-longer.html

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Most interaction aren't goods, they are neutral.

I remember the two mentors in that dungeon with kuribo or something (Andapor maybe?) and they were amazing and really helpful but its the only thing I can remember about mentor because none of them actually leave any impressions.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I always see this accusation and literally no one ever provides proof of it. Just once, I'd love to see someone show a mentor that has outright said, "I'm just here for the crown, screw ya'll newbs"

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Honestly, while usually I'm the one likely to point out that many studies have shown humans are really bad at judging percentage/frequency in a way that actually matches objective reality, I can genuinely say that I'm fairly sure the percentage is at least higher than 0%. Because I have definitely encountered jerks of mentors. Not often, but enough to prove they exist and are not MMO cryptids.

I mean, I don't think it's all mentors by any means. It's not even a majority! Heck, it might be less than 5%! (I mean, it probably is less than 5%, potentially by a lot.)

But the ones who are like that -- who snap at sprouts or basically use "I'm a mentor" to try to boss them around -- tend to be very loud and difficult to ignore when they do show up. (And as noted, I have indeed seen them before, albeit not so often.) And even if they are a relatively small number, their loud and in-your-face nature tends to mean they are what gets noticed, what gets remembered, and thus what gets associated with the crown.

Still, you're not wrong either; a lot of the bad perception of mentors is an echo chamber. Three sprouts have a jerk of a mentor in a dungeon and mention it to some friends. One of those friends has had a bad mentor experience, and mentions they've also seen a jerk of a mentor. And over time it balloons into this thing where when new folks show up in game, they get more or less inducted into the court of "mentors all suck", even when it's potentially a very small portion of mentors who do, and their reason for believing mentors all suck is "I've been told by veteran players that mentors all suck."

And in an example of positive bias reinforcement, that means they're likely to see a jerk mentor as proving that opinion true, while seeing examples of excellent mentors as "the exception". (And neutral examples just get mentally filtered out, because they aren't memorable.)

And absolutely none of this changes that the crown has a terrible reputation, deserved or otherwise. Which means the ones who don't want to be associated with that reputation don't wear the crown. Which reduces the number of counter-examples in the wild that no, mentors aren't all jerks... and the cycle continues.

i run a lot of content and the issue of mentor never arises. No one even talks about it. Where are people seeing this behavior? Is this a Novice Network thing cause I don't belong to that. Personally I've never renewed my mentor status.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

If it was not exclusive it would have thousands of people in it, which would make it more chaotic than it already can be. Novices used to be invited automatically, but it invited bots so it was changed to require mentors to invite them. Mentors are not placed in it automatically and sprouts are prompted and can decline the invite.

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It's not like trade mentor is hard to get, nothing is stopping people from joining the "exclusive" club. And keep in mind that players are "novices" for 300+ hours of gameplay now. Most of the playerbase is already eligible. The reason it's not completely overrun isn't the exclusivity of the status, but the cap on participants that already exists.

Mentors join automatically on login if they've toggled /novicenetwork join, even if they don't care to participate, and still count against the cap.

Novices join automatically with the same option, once they've been invited, and it sets the channel to their default channel which is a pain.

My suggestion is to remove the invite system and mentor/novice requirements, but make it toggle OFF automatically and have players manually sign into it each time they login. That way only players who want to participate will join, so you don't have the current situation where it's hard capped at 100 mentors who joined automatically and aren't chatting, and 100+ novices who joined automatically but forgot the channel even exists and whose only interaction with it is to send mistells and macro spam.

I also suggested a reasonable player cap (not unlike what we have now) so it doesn't get chaotic.

And they should make a server-wide general chat too, so people stop using the network for exactly that. Give players an alternative, and novice network can refocus to its intended purpose of helping sprouts.

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Originally Posted by Scaramouche

Most interaction aren't goods, they are neutral.

I remember the two mentors in that dungeon with kuribo or something (Andapor maybe?) and they were amazing and really helpful but its the only thing I can remember about mentor because none of them actually leave any impressions.

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Both positive and negative experiences are remembered better than neutral ones. Negative ones are remembered the best. So in your experience you haven't had a negative experience but had a couple positive experiences, and remember those over the dozens of neutral ones.

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Originally Posted by Scaramouche

When the game allows someone who did ifrit 1000 times, got 1500 commendations because they were healers/had cute glamour and paid for Job boosts to get the exact same statue

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Most people don't do that though and if they do, they are probably past the point where they are a lost sprout that doesn't know what they are doing. It's not the sort of thing most people do when the game is still confusing to them. The commendations act as a way to make it harder than just doing 1,000 of the easiest content.

I had about...4 bad experiences with mentors? 3 were a crafting mentors
Today on my server had a fight tho, 2 mentors being extremely proud, not accepting that a sprout knew something that they didn't, kept being ironic and even asked for the sprout to leave the NN. The reason? The mentors thought you only received EXP by killing open world mobs as BLU, they didn't enjoyed being corrected by a sprout

I think mentors can be really helpful, i got tons of helps during my sprout period with my main and alts. The problem is that anybody can be a mentor, no matter how toxic the person really is. And the Novice Network is a mess, tons of people get the crafting mentor just to join to use as a global chat

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Originally Posted by YukiB

It's not like trade mentor is hard to get, nothing is stopping people from joining the "exclusive" club. And keep in mind that players are "novices" for 300+ hours of gameplay now. Most of the playerbase is already eligible. The reason it's not completely overrun isn't the exclusivity of the status, but the cap on participants that already exists.

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The cap is part of what makes it exclusive but so is the fact that some people won't bother to qualify for trade mentor.

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Mentors join automatically on login if they've toggled /novicenetwork join, even if they don't care to participate, and still count against the cap.

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My point was that they need to toggle that first so there are probably a lot of mentors that have never joined it at all and if they didn't have to toggle it, then the mentor cap would probably be reached a lot more often than it currently is. Making them have to toggle it on every single time they login is a fair suggestion, although I am happy that I don't have to bother with that.

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Originally Posted by Amorzinho

I think mentors can be really helpful, i got tons of helps during my sprout period with my main and alts. The problem is that anybody can be a mentor, no matter how toxic the person really is. And the Novice Network is a mess, tons of people get the crafting mentor just to join to use as a global chat

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Crafting mentor is a problem. I'm not saying battle mentor couldn't be harder to get, but it is successful at preventing a lot of people from being one and crafting mentors should have to go through something similar which takes them 1 year because a lot of the poor behaviour in the novice network comes from them. If they were just getting a chatroom quickly they probably won't bother anymore and if they do go through with the requirements they will have time in that year to learn what is and isn't accepted behaviour.

Woah epic mentor bashing thread take my fortnite upvote
when are we getting the sprout bashing thread tho

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Originally Posted by Scaramouche

Most interaction aren't goods, they are neutral.

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That's literally the point. Most interactions are neutral but all we hear about are these "terrible mentors" that someone only remembers because they have an emotional attachment to that memory.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

But the ones who are like that -- who snap at sprouts or basically use "I'm a mentor" to try to boss them around -- tend to be very loud and difficult to ignore when they do show up. (And as noted, I have indeed seen them before, albeit not so often.) And even if they are a relatively small number, their loud and in-your-face nature tends to mean they are what gets noticed, what gets remembered, and thus what gets associated with the crown.
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And that is the basis of stereotyping and generalizing and logical people know that is a bad thought process (yes, I know your post is largely in agreeance with my previous).

I know mentors who actively wear the crown to push back against the stereotype to prove that mentors can and should be better. But everyone has bad days and those are the ones that will always be remembered and judged instead of admitting that everyone should get a bit of leeway because everyone indeed has bad days.

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Originally Posted by YukiB

They better add a server-wide chat channel if they get rid of the system, because Novice Network is the only reason I care about mentorship.

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So helping others isn't the reason?

A mentor system is inherently flawed from the inception of the idea. To incentivise people to become a mentor, you need adequate rewards locked behind it — but herein lies the issue in that people use it as a means to an end to achieve the reward as opposed to having the noble intention of helping people. Making the reward primary and the helping people as secondary.

In the same vein, without reward you don’t give much incentive for people, those who wish to help will do so regardless of whether the system exists in the game or not. Just have one major roulette that draws from trials, raids, dungeons etc. and have it available to players regardless of status.

The developers would do themselves and the community in general a better service to create a hall of the intermediate and/or advanced which teaches more complex mechanics and proper arena awareness, as opposed to trying to continue to develop a system that ultimates results in just a status symbol.

I have personally come across more good mentors than bad; and as mentioned, the bad ones are just very *very* vocal and loud and stand out more. When there is a question being asked in NN, I more often than not see that question being answered by more than one mentor.

Sure, there may be that one annoying condescending mentor - best thing to do is report them if they are doing something reportable and move on; despite a bad experience, that doesn't mean every single mentor is out to get the sprouts like some VIP exclusive army with a goal in mind to be rude.

I wear my crown because I genuinely enjoy helping other players, and maybe they will remember that there was at least 'that one mentor' that wasn't rude and was genuinely helpful. Not wearing the crown to where only the bad ones wears them just adds to the pot that sprouts think that only rude people become mentors when that's just not the case. I understand the reputation the crown has, I just don't care because I know that's not me, and anyone that interacts with me in game will know this, too.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

90% of mentors you meet are stuck up individuals that will strike out at you for no reason because their ego has gone to their heads.

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Yep. When I started none of them with a crown would even talk to me, not even to cuss me out. XD Ya I don't think that system works. Isnt helping answer a question kinda what that system is for?

In my server it isnt flawed. Most people get their questions answered and occasionally hands on help. There's a few personalities in it but by and large its working as intended, with the added chatter that keeps the game from feeling too solo.

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Originally Posted by Serenitey

Yep. When I started none of them with a crown would even talk to me, not even to cuss me out. XD Ya I don't think that system works. Isnt helping answer a question kinda what that system is for?

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Did you ask a question and where did you ask it?

This is always funny to me because I have name plates turned off entirely
I have no idea who is or isn't a mentor and I don't care, if someone's a jerk I blacklist them lmao
No idea what they could do to improve the system other than y'know. The generally suggested changing the crown icon (though I personally think the crown is already kinda ugly) and removing the mount reward (which good lord 2000 roulettes at all sounds like torture let alone 2000 roulettes that include extremes, that's like an anti incentive for me lmao)

I don't like this optional thing.
Please delete it.
What about no.
Tonberry NN is fun.
And helpful

To be honest when I first started I was told to never join Novice Network because it was that bad, and that was 2 years ago. Don't think asking to delete the entire mentor system is fair though. Maybe there's something they could do with NN.

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Originally Posted by Veranolth

To be honest when I first started I was told to never join Novice Network because it was that bad, and that was 2 years ago. Don't think asking to delete the entire mentor system is fair though. Maybe there's something they could do with NN.

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NN is the definition of anarchy.
Probably half oligarchy and half anarchy.
But mostly also a democracy with a hint of gerrymandering.

Basically, it's not to be trusted. Sprouts asking questions in limsoland is enough and imo is more of a "safe space" than is one with crowns and leafs which probably create more of a divide.

ps: i never wear my crown bc it feels like a mark of shame and also i don't wish to further divide myself from a leaf bc i was once thems ; -;

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Originally Posted by YukiB

My suggestion is to remove the invite system and mentor/novice requirements, but make it toggle OFF automatically and have players manually sign into it each time they login. That way only players who want to participate will join, so you don't have the current situation where it's hard capped at 100 mentors who joined automatically and aren't chatting, and 100+ novices who joined automatically but forgot the channel even exists and whose only interaction with it is to send mistells and macro spam.

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The issue is that if you allow folks freely onto the Novice Network without invites -- including free trial accounts, who fall smack in the target audience likely to want to be there -- you get a specific problem. And the problem is not theoretical, because I'm told the problem is why the novice network is now invite-only. (Though it evidently happened during the stretch that I wasn't playing, so I did not see it firsthand.)

Basically, you know all those bots with the names that look like they're either a keyboard smash or a half-assed attempt at a canon-compliant Sea Wolf Roegadyn name? When folks were joined to the channel automatically, on some servers it evidently became an ocean of...

[Novice] Asfdgqaaouih Bapwreg: PVP SQUIRREL BARN DOTCOM (REMOVE ANIMAL) SLASH FF FOURTEEN (USE NUMBER) -- BEST ALL GIL SALES LOW RATES! BUY LOOTS EXTREME!
[Novice] Igrgoqwerqwei Yewetrq: 17 million gil lottery giveaway, go to URL-that's-totally-the-forum-and-not-a-phishing-site to enter!!
[Novice] Pwertweu Nertfng: BUY BEST LOOT CHEAP CLEARS GIL BANKMOOGLE DOG COM (CHANGE DOG TO .) BUY NOW SALE!!!

...and so on. And banning one of the bots did nothing because they'd just make a new free trial account, join the Novice Network, and keep going. Which basically rendered the novice network functionally useless, as anyone who would actually use it fled for the sake of their sanity.

Squirrel Barn is the absolute best place for bank moogling, to be absolutely fair.

Maybe other servers are different, but I find that the Novice Network on my server is very helpful to new and returning players. I can't even the count the number of new/returning players that were sad when their player status was going to change and they'd lose access. Many players form bonds even with mentors or through mentors - maybe join their FC, friends list, etc.

Novice Network is what the community makes of it.

I have never seen one bad mentor that is stuck up. Most the mentors I see help ones out all the time with crafting and duties. Maybe it is just mentors in your datacenter that is bad.