you know what really grinds my gears? savage gear

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

so once again just cause people like one side of something the other side of it has to be perfectly fine as is right? if you enjoy raiding then why does it matter if the savage gear is slightly above the min requirement or at the min requirement? if you do happen to enjoy both but find a problem with the gear progression you should just overlook it clearly.

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Challenge is fun. Removing any semblance of challenge from week 1 raiding is not fun. If you don't understand the impact of a 5 ilevel increase to your average ilevel from a tuning standpoint, it is very likely that you have never gone for a week 1 tier clear.

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

also for the love of god people stop acting like cause person A has a slight advantage over person B that it's gonna be tuned for person A.

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Pug raiding, which is massively popular in this game, would be segregated by this change in an unhealthy way. Many parties would opt to set the ilevel requirement to the previous tier BiS, which would gate new or returning players out of many parties.

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

so once again just cause people like one side of something the other side of it has to be perfectly fine as is right? if you enjoy raiding then why does it matter if the savage gear is slightly above the min requirement or at the min requirement? if you do happen to enjoy both but find a problem with the gear progression you should just overlook it clearly.

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Truthfully, the only reason I care is that we already see people making, like, P2S parties that have an i598 gear requirement in PF or whatever. When Endsinger EX came out, parties were already saying "usual PF strats, watch a video" within 4 hours of the patch landing, and Twelve help you if you wanted to find a blind prog party after that point.

The community that consumes high-end content right out of the gate in this game is not always as patient as we could be.

So my only reason for feeling "starting on equal footing" is important is that if folks can have a meaningful bump above the entry-level ilevel right away, the raiding scene may not be as friendly to folks who want to start raiding, and for whom it's their first tier. Not because the entry-level gear wouldn't be sufficient, but because parties that wanted to set a minimum gear ilevel to ensure faster progression might exclude them immediately, right out of the gate, until they had ground enough of the weekly capped tomestones to get the unaugmented tomestone gear.

But save that one point, about making the tier not accessible to newcomers? I don't really care much; as you say, I'm going to be hopping into the tier immediately anyway.

That said, my point about "ask yourself if you really enjoy raiding" is not facetious or meant as some sort of "gotcha" statement; I genuinely mean it. You are coming across actively angry about being denied some sort of "rightful payment" for raiding -- whether or not that's the intention -- and I know that I've let myself get wound up into hobbies that eventually filled me with anger/annoyance/resentment instead of, y'know, fun. And just been oblivious to the fact that I wasn't actually enjoying it any more until I was forced to step back and look at it.

And maybe if you ask yourself that, your answer is that you do still also enjoy raiding for the sake of raiding, and that's cool! But if your answer is that you raid almost resentfully and only to have a numeric gear advantage, but don't actually enjoy raiding itself anymore? I mean, you do you, but that is genuinely when I'd probably walk away.

Savage gear is not meant to be BIS, or at least not for very long. Because the majority of players don't farm Savage, or want to farm Savage. It's not their style of gameplay.

That is why Savage is never more than glam gear. You get to flex that you cleared Savage by applying dye to your gear. That's it's only real purpose.

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

thats the point it should already be noticable based on how savage gear is handled.

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Except Savage gears does have a reward factor, albeit through a certain website everyone either loves or hates. Allowing that gear to carry into the next tier wouldn't really change anything except killing the crafting market. I also disagree with your subsequent argument that our time is wasted, and our effort unrewarded simply because people can buy better gear come even numbered patches. I've been BiS for months now. My reward is being significantly ahead of the curb in terms of gear progression and being able to parse should I choose. I don't feel my effort is wasted whatsoever. I've gotten plenty of value out of this gear. Not to mention, half of said gear is tome. Which is no more effort to obtain than buying crafted. Unless you consider spamming hunt trains "effort".

Each even patch is essentially treated as a soft reset to the statue quo. I really am not bothered by that. My only complaint is Savage releasing at the same time but that's a different argument.

Now I could get behind pentamelding BiS gear but I doubt the devs have any intention of restructuring gear. A change like that wouldn't come until a new expansion.

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also has been said before crafting is already a dead market within like 3 days of new gear being craftable the only thing crafters can actively make good money on expansion long is treasure map items extreme weapons and furniture.

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There's a difference between less profitable and dead. Even three weeks into the tier, you'll still sell things in the 80-100k range. That's a far cry from what it used to be, but still consistently profitable. Treasure maps aren't a consistent source of revenue due to the time commitment and needing other players. It's not a bad source by any means, just not consistent. EX weapons aren't better than crafted gear. Even right now, some 40 weeks into the tier, I'll make more with i580 gear than a Primal weapon just in terms of volume. Same with furniture outside a housing expansion. Regardless, while I'd love for them to actually address how awful crafting has become. They aren't going to do that by destroying one of the few avenues it has left.

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once again there are people who will not grind augmented tomestone pieces or a full Bis set that will grab crafted sets/pieces if they want to hit the minimum anyways. there will always be a market for the casual side of the game if they do want to get into higher end content or if they didn't get BIS by the time new tier comes out

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The amount of people who still need gear, have an interest in Savage and won't simply go and farm the now uncapped tomestone but instead spend gil are so exceedingly small, it may as well be non-existent. Way back in Heavensward, crafting gear was weaker and it prompted several complaints because nobody would ever touch it. That's why we have the current system.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Challenge is fun. Removing any semblance of challenge from week 1 raiding is not fun. If you don't understand the impact of a 5 ilevel increase to your average ilevel from a tuning standpoint, it is very likely that you have never gone for a week 1 tier clear.



Pug raiding, which is massively popular in this game, would be segregated by this change in an unhealthy way. Many parties would opt to set the ilevel requirement to the previous tier BiS, which would gate new or returning players out of many parties.

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i have week one cleaared P1s and P2s and you know what makes them challenging? the mechanics not just some arbritary DPS check if you actually knew what challenging was you'd understand that a small buff in DPS doesn't make the fight any easier you will still have to deal with 7 completely random people who all have varying skill level s ilvls etc... THAT is where the challenge comes in having to adjust to the randomness of a new pug everytime doing mechanics while trying your hardest to make sure your group clears
also i'll hit on the PF point later on

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

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i enjoy raiding for raiding i play all roles to get a viewpoint from all sides of the fight. but once again that doesn't mean i can't hate the gearing system or want a more logical gear progression be put in place. cause rn full wiping the gears usefullness for no reason is not logical like i said at minimum make it equal to next tiers ilvl requirement that way you can use the set you worked for to go ahead and work towards the next set.

"rightful payment" for raiding. this right here is why i say wanting to be rewarded for effort/time is a sin now what should be labelled as rewardng the player for going the extra mile is being called a "rightful payment". why is it so bad that people play for different things? honestly no i'm not joking being angry etc.. why is it so bad for people to enjoy different things and want a change made to it if it doesn't affect the people who like playing for x other thing?

also for the whole people setting PFs with ridiculous ilvl requirements will happen regardless of what anyone does yeah it might occur slightly more often with a change like increasing the ilvl of savage gear but there's multiple ways around it like making your own PF or just not joining them if they want that high a ilvl anyways they either are tired of people wanting to be carried or wanting to be carried themselves (prolly the latter tbh)

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

i have week one cleaared P1s and P2s and you know what makes them challenging? the mechanics not just some arbritary DPS check if you actually knew what challenging was you'd understand that a small buff in DPS doesn't make the fight any easier you will still have to deal with 7 completely random people who all have varying skill level s ilvls etc... THAT is where the challenge comes in having to adjust to the randomness of a new pug everytime doing mechanics while trying your hardest to make sure your group clears
also i'll hit on the PF point later on

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The fights you're claiming to have cleared week 1 both allow you to enter them above their minimum ilevel on the first week, and you are still stuck on p3s many months into the tier.

Mechanics in this game are pretty easy outside of ultimate, especially if you aren't forced to optimize around them. The fact that you view mechanics and rotational optimization as separate things indicates to me that you are still a very inexperienced player, and probably have a lot of room left to grow. Wouldn't it be more effective to spend your 'effort' simply improving as a player, instead of asking the devs to retune the game to give you a flat numeric advantage?

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

hmm yes BiS for 6-7 months for doing what content exactly? reclearing each week? oh boy slightly faster clears on fights they already have basically on autopilot. unsynced older content? which at that point you could go in with base ilvl for normal savage and clear just slightly slower than that anyways. alliance raids? you know hte thing that has 24 people in it so you having BiS means next to nothing unless you can somehow carry the group. ultimates? which is true for the first tier (but not second tier) but is also such a niche piece of content that it being bis for it is in no way shape or form enough to constitute this happening.

once agian you get next to nothing for doing the savages when it comes to getting the next BiS which is hte issue the gear you grinded for should be at ilvl or higher for obtaining the next set thats how progression works not forcing a hard reset for no reason

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You can't even enter ultimate without clearing the savage fourth floor, and it's not niche. The instance is i605 forever sync'd, and no one is i605.

Savage is designed to be cleared with full crafted pentameld at min ilevel, that's how they test the fights. They don't do progressive gear walls anymore, it almost ruined the raid scene back in Gordias.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

The fights you're claiming to have cleared week 1 both allow you to enter them above their minimum ilevel on the first week, and you are still stuck on p3s many months into the tier.

Mechanics in this game are pretty easy outside of ultimate, especially if you aren't forced to optimize around them. The fact that you view mechanics and rotational optimization as separate things indicates to me that you are still a very inexperienced player, and probably have a lot of room left to grow. Wouldn't it be more effective to spend your 'effort' simply improving as a player, instead of asking the devs to retune the game to give you a flat numeric advantage?

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LMAO cause i didn't clear P3s week one i'm still stuck on it? i'm still waiting on my static to clear it i only cleared P1s and P2s week one cause they didn't want to week one raid and i oblige by the raid leaders wishes and not clear P3s without them (they were fine with me clearing P1s and P2s cause they didn't want to week one raid and i did) i view rotation and mechanics as seperate things cause they are indeed seperate things you can have complex mechanics and simple rotations or vice versa one being easier or harder has little to no effect on the other and most of the time adjusting your rotation to more complex mechanics is just delaying stuff by set times or missing maybe one GCD in your rotation like for example having to save triple cast and any instant casts (swift or your thunder/poly/fire procs) as BLM for the more movement heavy stuff in P3s (ADs, FoF, tornadoes if you're baiting somewhere fartherer away from where ou ended up etc...) also please don't act like the rotational aspects of the game are some mind bending complex thing healers literally have so many healing skills and one spam DPS button with a few occasional oGCD DPS buttons. there are very few jobs that actually demand actual rotational awareness around mechanics (and not just oops i should hold my burst or buff window here) the two prominent ones coming to mind is MNK and BLM you could also argue NIN as well with proper raiju usage to minimize downtime.

IMO the only thing that bugs me about the raid system in general is the token by slot system they use that feels like unnecessary inventory clutter. Just make 1 token per tier and use different quantities for specific slots.

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

LMAO cause i didn't clear P3s week one i'm still stuck on it? i'm still waiting on my static to clear it i only cleared P1s and P2s week one cause they didn't want to week one raid and i oblige by the raid leaders wishes and not clear P3s without them (they were fine with me clearing P1s and P2s cause they didn't want to week one raid and i did) i view rotation and mechanics as seperate things cause they are indeed seperate things you can have complex mechanics and simple rotations or vice versa one being easier or harder has little to no effect on the other and most of the time adjusting your rotation to more complex mechanics is just delaying stuff by set times or missing maybe one GCD in your rotation like for example having to save triple cast and any instant casts (swift or your thunder/poly/fire procs) as BLM for the more movement heavy stuff in P3s (ADs, FoF, tornadoes if you're baiting somewhere fartherer away from where ou ended up etc...) also please don't act like the rotational aspects of the game are some mind bending complex thing healers literally have so many healing skills and one spam DPS button with a few occasional oGCD DPS buttons. there are very few jobs that actually demand actual rotational awareness around mechanics (and not just oops i should hold my burst or buff window here) the two prominent ones coming to mind is MNK and BLM you could also argue NIN as well with proper raiju usage to minimize downtime.

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You haven't cleared it, despite the fight having been out for something like four months. You are stuck.

I'm sorry, but there is publicly available information which pretty strongly indicates you do not know what you are doing. You have a massively inflated perception of your own skill, and your gameplay would have been considered unviable in week 1 p4s. In 16 recorded clears of the earlier fights, you have never once attained what is considered the minimum expectation for your role in that fight.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

You haven't cleared it, despite the fight having been out for something like four months. You are stuck.

I'm sorry, but there is publicly available information which pretty strongly indicates you do not know what you are doing. You have a massively inflated perception of your own skill, and your gameplay would have been considered unviable in week 1 p4s. In 16 recorded clears of the earlier fights, you have never once attained what is considered the minimum expectation for your role in that fight.

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oh boy pulling up parses from a wide wide selection of 16 pulls where i ws probably dead alot or for example in P1s still doing DD strat. and it's almost as if there's 7 other people in a static saing i'm the one stuck is such a poor judgement that it's not even funny i had P3s figured out from seeing its mechanics 3 times each doesn't mean i'm stuck if you go assuming skill off some numbers on a site. you really know nothing of a persons actual skill level there's plenty of high end players that don't parse or play out their mind 24/7 i stopped caring about trying back in SHB cause the roles i want to play tank and healer are so dull that i'd rather mellow out when i play them and worry about clearing more so than optimal DPS. if i actually wanted to parse? i'd be playing BLM one of the biggest ways to tell a good player from a bad player but i don't cause i'm not gonna try hard in this game. it isn't worth try harding, i figured that out after being stuck in PF trying to clear E9s for almost 4 months. it's far better to go for the clear than only worry about how much damage you deal as a tank or healer. could i parse if i actually wanted to and joined parsing groups and really nitpicked my own rotation sure. am i going to? no cause there's no point when the most skill expression DRK has is saving a DA proc and saving 6k MP/100 gauge for burst window

the fact you even resort to pulling logs shows how little you value actual facts and opinions and would much rather point and go haha you don't parse so you're not skilled

If you're dead or have damage down for 16 parses, then I have some really bad news for you.

Your Eden and Extreme parses are shit too so you really have no excuse.

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

LMAO cause i didn't clear P3s week one i'm still stuck on it? i'm still waiting on my static to clear it i only cleared P1s and P2s week one cause they didn't want to week one raid and i oblige by the raid leaders wishes and not clear P3s without them (they were fine with me clearing P1s and P2s cause they didn't want to week one raid and i did) i view rotation and mechanics as seperate things cause they are indeed seperate things you can have complex mechanics and simple rotations or vice versa one being easier or harder has little to no effect on the other and most of the time adjusting your rotation to more complex mechanics is just delaying stuff by set times or missing maybe one GCD in your rotation like for example having to save triple cast and any instant casts (swift or your thunder/poly/fire procs) as BLM for the more movement heavy stuff in P3s (ADs, FoF, tornadoes if you're baiting somewhere fartherer away from where ou ended up etc...) also please don't act like the rotational aspects of the game are some mind bending complex thing healers literally have so many healing skills and one spam DPS button with a few occasional oGCD DPS buttons. there are very few jobs that actually demand actual rotational awareness around mechanics (and not just oops i should hold my burst or buff window here) the two prominent ones coming to mind is MNK and BLM you could also argue NIN as well with proper raiju usage to minimize downtime.

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If you're taking damage downs in P1S each time even not as a DD tank (strats like that shouldn't exist), that means mechanics aren't being done correctly. Usually a tile error or getting hit with in/out. Damage down is pretty severe in savage, it gets worse in the last floors where it's well above 45% of your damage lost for debuff period. Enough to cause a group that hasn't cleared yet to enrage. Should be avoided at all costs.

Personally no raid leader should ever discourage further prog after static days are over for the week, so unless you raid until the end of the Monday lockout, it's a pretty bad stance to have.

I would even argue that the game forcing you to face the ephemerality of gear is better for the mental health.
Yes, playing for gear in FFXIV makes no sense, it becomes obsolete every other patch.
So play for the EXPERIENCE, the JOY of raiding, not the gear. The gear is just the chaser.

So... Why should gear from the raids decrease the difficulties of the same raid?

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

This is an excuse given by people who are not actually interested in difficult content, but wish to save face by acting like it is in some way beneath them or not worth their time. I have never met someone truly inclined towards savage raiding for whom this was a legitimate concern. It also definitely is not a common sentiment, and I say that as someone who constantly helps bring new players into difficult content.

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Nah it's not. it's basic truth. accross video games in general not just FFXIV. mass amounts of studies and psychology done into such things.
when it comes to video games theres typically 2 types of motivators that get people playing. Intrinsic and Extrinsic. both of which are perfectly fine.

Intrinsic is basically doing something for the enjoyment or fun of doing it..
Extrinsic is doing it for some form of reward. recognition, fame, etc.

there both perfectly fine healthy and acceptable motivators that apply to all walks of life. hell many people are driven by both.. i like baking its relaxing and fun to do. (intrinsic) but getting to taste the fruits of my work and perhaps recognition from my friends for making an amazing cake is also a big motivator.. (extrinsic)

one of the reasons why you've perhaps never met these people is because they've most likely dropped the game because it has nothing for them.. its often cited as one of the reasons the game struggles to keep players interested. everything is junk nothing holds value..

or they're lying.. people in this game are driven by rewards on a daily basis.. take tomestones away from content and watch how quickly it dries up..

The only thing bothering me in any fight that drops any items is that you have a party and the fixed weapon that drops is not for any of the jobs in your party... cant they fix this? We have 1 chest, so 1 out of 8 person can get 1 gear, and you take away the ability from another to get one :( why? This was especially bothering me at the beginning of this tier when I was trying to get my weapon.