ToS and the health of the community

I don't think "active chatter" in content was ever really a thing, outside the first couple weeks of arr.

I'm on Discord talking to friends in voice chat. That's your difference. Discord is huge now.

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wind

No one talks because everyone is in a hurry, or would rather talk in their private circle.

The ToS is fine. Just don't be an ass. If someone responds poorly to advice just shrug your shoulders and let it be.

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I talk kupo and I know they read it kupo even if they don't (and seldom) reply. Sometimes I just have entire conversations with myself in party and at the very end get comms because you know and they know its repeated dungeons so some entertainment is always a + lol kupo <3

Last time I dealt with someone complaining about the tos it turns out the macro they used talked about rezzing someone with their panties in crystal tower.

In fact when it isn't about someone getting in trouble for overly sexual macros it's usually someone who decided to argue with a 23 man alliance over the position of the boss and gets way too heated over just tanking it at the 1 marker and decides to just take everything personally, accuse everyone else of being the douche/troll and ends up in trouble themselves.

The ToS is fine, you guys are just used to games where you can scream slurs and be horny in public chat because there isn't any in-game moderation (coughcoughWoWcoughcough)

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

What if they don't want advice? What if they are just having a bad day or made a mistake? What if they aren't looking to be optimal and just want to have fun because it's a game? If they want advice, they can ask for it.
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I mean if a tank cant hold the aggro or a Healer can't keep the tank alive or keeps dying from basic mechanics is not a question of being optimal.

Roles are called roles because they do have a role to play. But the point isnt in specific dungeon situations, I meant to ask about the perspective of the community towards how players interact or avoid to with others due to as some said, the ToS being used as a method to excuse 'bad' behavior. Since punishment can be very severe.

I do know that rare are the cases where someone is punished for dumb stuff still the fact that is can occur should be a problem itself. All of this in my vision of course.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

What if they don't want advice? What if they are just having a bad day or made a mistake? What if they aren't looking to be optimal and just want to have fun because it's a game? If they want advice, they can ask for it.

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Would have to say there are plethora of single player games they can go play that are more suited to the "I did it my way" mentality. They should go play those.

Seriously though there is no issue with TOS and advice. You can speak or give advice or do all the things if you are being neutral/friendly. Nothing will occur because you have violated nothing. Do not swear unless with only friends and do not push if someone is unreceptive. That is what kick feature is for.

Some people capable of getting offended from friendly advice and ruin your day. (TBH they can be offended by anything depending their mod)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zbEMeATb5g

You can try to be friendly and give advice if you have time for this kind of debate.. It is your choice :)
I prefer not bother with it and look for a new group.

Meh, I've been flamed for giving mechanics without asking and I've been flamed for asking if someone wants them instead of just saying them. Never been spoken to by a GM about it.

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Originally Posted by Vercinotrix

I honestly wish single player rpgs would just get expansions to the same game repeatedly instead of a one and done entry to a franchise so I could stop playing MMOs. I haven't had my party chats enabled in years at this point. ToS doesn't stop me from talking or interacting with others, I just choose not to.

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The thing is, sometimes just 1 bad experience can ruin 100 other good ones you had previously. We humans can be weird...

PS: Imagine FFIX getting a new expansion! Take my money now!

I must have an amazing string of luck, then, because most of the DF groups I join have some chatting going on, joking around a bit...

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Originally Posted by Minali

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This. All of this. There are people on these forums who don't like to ask first because they consider it coddling, but it's amazing how receptive people are to instruction if you let them choose to come to you. I'm a mentor and I wear the crown and I do that all the time. "Hey all! I'm here for questions if you have any but I'm good with blind runs, too." is the type of thing I usually say at the start. Lots of times if we have issues and wipe on a boss, they feel comfortable saying "Can you explain X" and I'm happy to. And if they don't and we still have issues, I just try to be an example of what to do in case they don't have a keyboard to ask. I know there are horror stories on here of 40 minute runs and I don't doubt those happen, but the vast majority of my experiences with new folks is they usually get it on the next try, or maybe it takes a third. There's often one tiny thing they're missing so sometimes you don't even have to fully reveal it, just hint by "Watch this area" or things like that.

Like you said, there's always going to be a bad apple who gets upset no matter what you do. I've gotten "shut up and let's just do this" type of comments before. I just happily add those people to my blacklist and get through the instance in those cases.

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Originally Posted by Vryn

If people complain about how they feel the ToS stifles their ability to talk to other players in a game, then the ToS is an issue.

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I couldn't disagree with this more.
If those complaints are valid, that is a different thing. However if those complaints are coming from either misinformation or the idiotic stance of 'my freedom of speech is being violated by a private company' then those complaints aren't valid

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Originally Posted by NeoDivinity

Hi :) ,

Often I see posts on reddit and in the forums about discussions in chat dungeons when someone recommend stuff or point mistakes and these are taken as toxic behavior regardless if it was an advice or a demand.

With the passing years the ToS got more and more strict about how to approach other players with advices and recomendations. Nowdays I feel like most players avoid using the party chat in Duty Finder most of the times because they don't want to engage on potential arguments even if it's about simple things like telling the Tank to rotate mitigations better to prevent damage or the DPSs to AoE on pack of mobs.

I understand the goal of making the gaming space a safe space for non experienced gamers, but should it be enforced like it is?

Even in prog groups we don't often see ppl using macros for exemple to remind ppl of mechanics like we used to in ARR and HW, since they're afraid of spam reports or don't bother at all engaging with the party, most of the time expecting you to follow a strict video guide and if failing to do so to get replaced with no warning at all.

These are not problems the I particulary have since I do play with friends most of the time but I got others to try the game and they pointed to me a few times why no one talk in area chat or even dungeons besides in town, despite having a lot of ppl questing in those starting zones. They either get into a FC I'd recommended or get used to never talk at all. Something that when i was starting back in the late ARR patches it wasnt like this, I remember talking a lot in dungeons and pugs even making friends in those.

How do you guys feel about it? Specially now that players can enjoy the MSQ almost at it's entirety solo, having the ToS so strict still necessary? is it healthy for the community in the long run?

Sorry for the long Topic, and for the scuffed english

TL: DR Now with the game allowing players to play the almost the whole MSQ content solo, the TOS being so strict is beneficial or detrimental for the experience between players? Let me know your thoughts.

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Yes it is and I will keep reporting people who whine about the mechanics even if the raid is running great because often that mechanics whiner is often doing nothing typing instead of helping out with the battle so the only person slowing down the raid is the mechanics whiner.

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wind

I couldn't disagree with this more.
If those complaints are valid, that is a different thing. However if those complaints are coming from either misinformation or the idiotic stance of 'my freedom of speech is being violated by a private company' then those complaints aren't valid

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Right, they feel as they have the right to attack people in the group and make the group worse off.

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Originally Posted by Vryn

Yes, let's not address people's concerns over a private organisation potentially banning you on the perceived offences of a stranger and instead call them names because you like the fact that Square steps on people and that you don't have to deal with other people in an MMO. Negative social interaction is a consequence of being social, and so is being offensive. You cannot have meaningful dialogue without the risk of offence. As long as the ToS is based around perceived offence, it will have a stifling effect no matter if people are innately nice or not, especially across a game that ranges across a dozen cultures in Europe alone with their own takes on what being nice and offensive are.

16 different personality types. Some are more controversial than others, such as someone just being blunt. That doesn't mean they're toxic. That means you don't like the way they speak and therefore are offended by it. The offence usually has more to do with the perceived standards of the individual taking offence than the person speaking to them unless they are throwing epithets. Also, most toxic players are random people having a bad day, so let's not use extremes to justify virtual hate crime law and the social credit system.

Also, I've been here since 2.0 Beta. They were far more talkative and willing to speak in a dungeon and actually speak their mind in public, just because you may not like what they have to say or find it controversial does not give you the right to ban their speech or use the GM's to enforce your individual sense of right and wrong. Just walk away or block them you where given the in game tools for a reason.

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Is this why you have a join date of 2022? Sounds like you might have had your account banned for doing what you claim you should have the right to. Hmm

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Originally Posted by Minali

It is hard to tell what is being reported when people say "I report you" or you report someone yourself, and what the GM's actually do. I get why they handle this so secretive, you don't want the people who face consequences to go after the one who reported them etc. I know I've offered plenty of help and talk a lot in chat, make jokes, whatever, and if I ever got reported for it, apparently the GM's decided it was okay what I did because I never heard anything from them.

However, this argumentation in this thread makes my skin scrawl, talking about people being "offended over everything" and "snowflakes" etc. Which is usually the general response to actual concerns or people just asking to be treated like a person and not like chewing gum. Reminds me of the "me too" thing where a lot of dudes were like "I am afraid to talk to a woman now" or "this was just flirting". And when you ask them for details it turned out that what they considered flirting was actually just being annoyingly persistent, pushy or even molesting, and not taking a "no, thanks" for an answer, so very much not flirting or treating people equally. But of course branding everything as snowflake talk makes the life much easier when you don't have to reconsider your own behaviour. (Doesn't surprise me that this forum has a bit of a reputation...) And a big part of the ToS isn't saying much more than "be nice".

Yes of course we have our "You don't pay my sub!" people and "oh my god how dare you telling me I should switch on tank stance" people in this game, but that doesn't mean that everyone would behave that way if you give them advice. If you want to make sure, offer help as "hey, if you like I can explain the mechanics" or when someone says "hi, first time tanking" you can say "feel free to ask if you have any questions", so they know they have the option. Some take it, some don't, but it's not against the ToS and makes people more open for conversation in general. Of course there are cultural differences that may come into play, I heard the tone varies a lot depending on the datacenter. I can only speak from my experiences from the Light DC. But I suppose these cultural differences are fairly well known to the people who live in this culture, so...

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Asking someone to turn their tank stance on is not the problem its when they insult the person for not doing so. Or for example lets say we have a new tank in the 20-39 range and its a completely new leaf. The person here is new to the game and bought armor at the NPC Venders the Tank Armor at this point for ARR can require you not to have anything on your feet or head but the stats reflect that. I have seen snob hardcore player ridicule these tanks and I would always block and report them after wards and reassuring the tank hes fine.

Whenever I call someone here someone from the hardcore minority 'new' and they claim they have been playing since 2013 or 2010 its find of funny they have a new Join Date. Hmm seems like banned people are coming back in

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Originally Posted by Vryn

16 different personality types. Some are more controversial than others, such as someone just being blunt. That doesn't mean they're toxic. That means you don't like the way they speak and therefore are offended by it. The offence usually has more to do with the perceived standards of the individual taking offence than the person speaking to them unless they are throwing epithets. Also, most toxic players are random people having a bad day, so let's not use extremes to justify virtual hate crime law and the social credit system.

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MBTI is hilariously inaccurate and was created by an author with near-zero higher education in regards to psych and who was pretty racist.

Ctrl+F
"toxic"
*gasp*

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

You are trolling and took what i said out of context to provoke. Cultural diffrence is used in the debate about the ToS and SE behavior regarding the community as a excuse to not discuss and disredgard arguments altogether. What you are refering to is a politcal theme i would not touch even with a 100 foot pole in a forum but what ever floats your boat, i guess.

My point is and was: The ToS should be a baseline to make social interactions possibel in a controlled matter not punishing like crazy or even cater to "trigger happy" people. Also we need interactions with the community but besides Yoshida's we dont get any and thats not enough.

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I'm not trolling. Maybe you should explain it better if you have an issue with how people interpret your text. The context of your point was cultural differences are buzzwords. You are naive because cultures are innately different due to developing in isolation and then with a few groups that became a global community over time. Cultures are still unique in language, values, mannerisms, moral compass, ethics, law, etc. If it didn't happen that way, the world would be far easier to navigate.

You can't control social interaction because you arnt the one speaking. So what you are asking for is the ability to control thoughts or, if they have one you disagree with, stop them from talking altogether, which is malicious. Also, regulation doesnt make social interaction possible in this game. A pair of eyes a, brain and fingers do. If the game didn't have a ToS, social interaction would still be possible.

You prove my point by saying "crazy or even cater to "trigger happy" people" who gave you the right? Why is your opinion more important than theirs? You want to control who can speak. You are happily engaging in the theme you're saying you're not touching, whether or not you realise it.

Even though t's a video game, it has its politics. After all, you are engaging in something called a forum, and this is the town centre for the game, where members of the community come to converse, argue, and provide feedback to developers.

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

MBTI is hilariously inaccurate and was created by an author with near-zero higher education regarding psych and who was pretty racist.

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I'm sorry to tell you this, but Myers and Briggs isnt the only personality test. Most use 16 personality types under four more significant categories to the point that entire fields of business theory are based on it and have proven to be entirely accurate. Nothing is 100%, and no one said it was. Research into personality traits in humans and the groups we categorise them into is very well documented, just because you disagree with a single source doesn't invalidate the entire field.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

Yes it is and I will keep reporting people who whine about the mechanics even if the raid is running great because often that mechanics whiner is often doing nothing typing instead of helping out with the battle so the only person slowing down the raid is the mechanics whiner.



Right, they feel as they have the right to attack people in the group and make the group worse off.




Is this why you have a join date of 2022? Sounds like you might have had your account banned for doing what you claim you should have the right to. Hmm




Asking someone to turn their tank stance on is not the problem its when they insult the person for not doing so. Or for example lets say we have a new tank in the 20-39 range and its a completely new leaf. The person here is new to the game and bought armor at the NPC Venders the Tank Armor at this point for ARR can require you not to have anything on your feet or head but the stats reflect that. I have seen snob hardcore player ridicule these tanks and I would always block and report them after wards and reassuring the tank hes fine.

Whenever I call someone here someone from the hardcore minority 'new' and they claim they have been playing since 2013 or 2010 its find of funny they have a new Join Date. Hmm seems like banned people are coming back in

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A forum date is just the day joined the forums, not the day you joined the game and if you were banned from the game why would that suddenly change the date you joined forums? How does that make sense?

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Originally Posted by Vryn

I'm not trolling. Maybe you should explain it better if you have an issue with how people interpret your text. The context of your point was cultural differences are buzzwords. You are naive because cultures are innately different due to developing in isolation and then with a few groups that became a global community over time. Cultures are still unique in language, values, mannerisms, moral compass, ethics, law, etc. If it didn't happen that way, the world would be far easier to navigate.

You can't control social interaction because you arnt the one speaking. So what you are asking for is the ability to control thoughts or, if they have one you disagree with, stop them from talking altogether, which is malicious. Also, regulation doesnt make social interaction possible in this game. A pair of eyes a, brain and fingers do. If the game didn't have a ToS, social interaction would still be possible.

You prove my point by saying "crazy or even cater to "trigger happy" people" who gave you the right? Why is your opinion more important than theirs? You want to control who can speak. You are happily engaging in the theme you're saying you're not touching, whether or not you realise it.

Even though t's a video game, it has its politics. After all, you are engaging in something called a forum, and this is the town centre for the game, where members of the community come to converse, argue, and provide feedback to developers.

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I said: The ToS is not good written and SE does not really interact with us and i critique these points. Also people abuse the ToS to their advantage because of how the ToS is written. This is my opinion as what you wrote is yours.
I am in the same position as you and never assumed anything else. If you are using not the context and think i mean "control thoughts" then you want to interpret it like that. Its your choice, i want disscussion and dialog - that is my choice.

I think the ToS needs chang and we need more GM's that control or even enforce the ToS with the aim of making the community better. No further goes my "politics" here. And regarding BUzzwords yes, it used as a Buzzword in this matter very often, if you look into the JP community the diffrence is not that big.
And no we need rules, humans need always rules. If we cant agree on that, i think we are too far appart but i am happy about your input, so thank you.

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

I said: The ToS is not good written and SE does not really interact with us and i critique these points. Also people abuse the ToS to their advantage because of how the ToS is written. This is my opinion as what you wrote is yours.
I am in the same position as you and never assumed anything else. If you are using not the context and think i mean "control thoughts" then you want to interpret it like that. Its your choice, i want disscussion and dialog - that is my choice.

I think the ToS needs chang and we need more GM's that control or even enforce the ToS with the aim of making the community better. No further goes my "politics" here. And regarding BUzzwords yes, it used as a Buzzword in this matter very often, if you look into the JP community the diffrence is not that big.
And no we need rules, humans need always rules. If we cant agree on that, i think we are too far appart but i am happy about your input, so thank you.

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Ofcourse it's your choice to talk to people. No one said it wasn't, but your speech engages in the same themes you said you wouldn't touch. Politics is the networking and interaction of people with a form of power, and you're a paying customer.

Humans make rules without the ToS, such as community etiquette, which has nothing to do with the ToS, and the regulations set by the ToS; they are affected by culture and the individual's personality. You cannot enforce a moral paradigm on the community. The game is too diverse in terms of actual real-world cultures. They won't agree with what you are doing, nor will they like it damaging their overall experience.

Now I agree that the ToS needs to be moved to a more objective standing that is clear and does not allow people to punish others based on their perceived injury. Therefore, leading GMs to treat people who were the cause of the perceived injustice as a disruptive element rather than a customer, but as long as you have the ability for the GMs to use their discretion, then the ToS will be inconsistently applied.

The purpose of a ToS is not to be a moral agenda or manifesto telling people how they can and cannot treat each other. In early MMO design, these people would have been dealt with by the community and people would have acted more like adults when dealing with them and telling them what they expect. It was never originally a GM's job to manage your social experiences and make them 100% positive or tell people how they can and cannot communicate with one another. If you don't like someone, block them and move on. Just because someone says something you don't like doesnt give you the right to remove them because you will do the same thing in someone else's eyes. You are an adult at the end of the day; it's time you started acting like one instead of crying about how someone called you a mean word or how they wouldn't let you join a group because you didn't meld your gear.

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wind

I couldn't disagree with this more.
If those complaints are valid, that is a different thing. However, if those complaints are coming from either misinformation or the idiotic stance of 'my freedom of speech is being violated by a private company, then those complaints aren't valid

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Who are you to judge whether a paying customer's complaint is worthwhile? If people have a pain point that comes to Square Enix's service offering as a product that would make it better in their eyes, then it's a valid complaint. You don't need to have free speech, but you need to have the ability for people to express themselves fully and voice their concerns in a manner they deem fit to other people. The other people can then be adults and decide if they agree with that or not and wish to continue investing their time in that individual. No one is arguing that people should be able to slander others without repercussion. Yes, you are also correct that Square is a private company. Still, as a private company, they also have a fiduciary duty to the customer who is paying for that service and taking on their feedback to improve said service in their eyes because they receive their money.