Keep overpower cone shaped!

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Overpower before 6.1 is on the left and every other tank aoe, which now includes Overpower is on the right.
https://i.imgur.com/7rohaYy.png

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It's 5 yalms radius, not diameter. Surface for cone (if top edge is 8 yalms wide) is 32 square yalms (8 squared halved), surface for circle is ~78.5 square yalms.

Edit: yeah, top edge was 16 yalms (8 radius, not diameter), so cone was 64 square yalms.

You're right, it's 10 yalms diameter, 5 yalms radius. But while the circle does cover a bigger area it is still a range nerf in the only direction that really matters during pulls, in front of you.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

You're right, it's 10 yalms diameter, 5 yalms radius. But while the circle does cover a bigger area it is still a range nerf in the only direction that really matters during pulls, in front of you.

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If you are pulling a pack ahead of you, sure. If you are pulling first pack in w2w with backwards overpower you do it, well, backwards, which means you have to run further before you grab agro than you'd with a circle. Once you've grouped the mobs the range doesn't really help you, since you have other AoEs that are 5 yalms range anyhow.

Actual ranges to scale:
https://i.postimg.cc/vTK00VN8/conevscircle.png

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Originally Posted by Terhix

If you are pulling a pack ahead of you, sure. If you are pulling first pack in w2w with backwards overpower you do it, well, backwards, which means you have to run further before you grab agro than you'd with a circle. Once you've grouped the mobs the range doesn't really help you, since you have other AoEs that are 5 yalms range anyhow.

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Or you just use Mythril Tempest, maybe? Having both is kinda nice because the cone is simply better, and when you mess up you can just compensate with Mythril Tempest.

If a tank can't grab aggro using *both* of these then I don't know anymore, just hang the axe on the wall, and take up fishing, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Actual ranges to scale:
https://i.postimg.cc/vTK00VN8/conevscircle.png

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That image is just wrong, the cone sticks out well beyond the border of your circle since it's 8yalms long, while the circle is only 5.

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Originally Posted by marelooke

That image is just wrong, the cone sticks out well beyond the border of your circle since it's 8yalms long, while the circle is only 5.

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Points of origin are obviously different. I've overlayed them since that makes the surface area easier to compare. And yes, circle is 10 yalms long (5 yalms radius), which is more than 8 yalms range on cone, where as cone is 16 yalms wide at max range (8 yalms radius).

Edit: Same picture, points of origin being same:

https://i.postimg.cc/ydKNY0RD/conevscircle-1.png

If there is any mob outside of purple, you had to move between Tempest and Overpower.

New Overpower looks cool, it doesn't need changed back.

I'm fine with this change. I didn't really have strong feelings one way or the other but if I had to choose, I'd go with circular AoE.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Point of origins are obviously different. I've overlayed them since that makes the surface area easier to compare. And yes, circle is 10 yalms long (5 yalms radius), which is more than 8 yalms range on cone, where as cone is 16 yalms wide at max range (8 yalms radius).

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I have no idea why you keep focusing on the total surface area when we've already established it doesn't practically matter because you shouldn't have mobs bunched all around you anyway as it makes life harder for quite a few other classes when mobs aren't properly positioned (DRG, notably).

Sure, once the pull is done the "extra" range of Overpower doesn't usually get you much (unless someone pulled a mob off of you during the pull and decides to stand just outside of your circle range, which ironically ime is quite a common place for healers/ranged to go stand, so...), but neither should the additional surface area the circle gets you.

In fact, the more I think about it the more I start feeling we should just change all the tank AoE rotation starters into cones. But given the direction things have been headed I think it's more likely all AoE is just turned into circles because heavens forbid any semblance of thought should be put towards positioning. Next on the chopping block of streamlineliness: Flood of Darkness and DRG AoE.

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Originally Posted by marelooke

I have no idea why you keep focusing on the total surface area when we've already established it doesn't practically matter because you shouldn't have mobs bunched all around you anyway as it makes life harder for quite a few other classes when mobs aren't properly positioned (DRG, notably).

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Because when you are making a pull, as in before the mobs are properly positioned, the larger the surface area is, the more mobs you can hit. That is not opinion, that is math.

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Originally Posted by marelooke

In fact, the more I think about it the more I start feeling we should just change all the tank AoE rotation starters into cones.

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For the record: I wouldn't hate it.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Because when you are making a pull, as in before the mobs are properly positioned, the larger the surface area is, the more mobs you can hit. That is not opinion, that is math.

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You're supposed to hit the mobs in front of you, and keep them there, even as non-WAR, so the additional surface area does not matter. Sure it's there, but it might as well not be. Hell, it probably shouldn't be, because it encourages lazy, and outright bad, tanking habits that will make your DRG cry.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

For the record: I wouldn't hate it.

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It would make other tank jobs finally enjoyable to play outside of single-target endgame content. WAR was the only tank that was even remotely enjoyable to play in dungeons, because setting up pulls effectively actually took some brain activity, and they just had to ruin it.

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Originally Posted by marelooke

You're supposed to hit the mobs in front of you, and keep them there, even as non-WAR, so the additional surface area does not matter.

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Oh come on, it makes no difference if you hit the pack ahead of you, behind you, or around you as you're making the pull. You hit the pack, sprint to the next pack and hit that, then move to the side to group them up. If you hit the second pack head on with old Overpower, you now have a pack behind you and a pack ahead of you, you have to move regardless of what shape AoE you used.

All I know is I used to do 5-7 dungeon rolos a day on WAR and thats probably going down to 0. Just played WAR in the new dunjin and I hate the change.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Because when you are making a pull, as in before the mobs are properly positioned, the larger the surface area is, the more mobs you can hit. That is not opinion, that is math.

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Yes but AFTER that FIRST initial hit, the cone literally doesn't matter. At all.

In fact due to mob AI and them positioning themselves so they don't overlap their shared space it is entirely possible to MISS mobs DUE to the cone where the circle would hit them.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Yes but AFTER that FIRST initial hit, the cone literally doesn't matter.

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My friend, I was talking about the circle, because the circle has the larger surface area (~78.5 circle vs 64 cone).

Just gonna say, I can tell this is actually a bad change bc the people asking to change it back have REASONS for wanting it back, and we're throwing up graphics and trying our darndest to explain how awful this is. Only arguments I've seen for keeping it basically boil down to "I don't really mind either way tbh lolz." This should be a no-brainer at this point, there are excellent reasons for a tank to have access to a basic tanking tool, and it's becoming increasing clear at this point the only people who are okay with losing it never understood the point in the first place. I'm not trying to bash on anyone for their level of understanding of ANYTHING, i just don't want to lose my basic bones tank tool. I wanna be able to keep tanking as gud as i do. If you wanna argue against this pls explain how i can do gud tanking w/o a cone bc i ain't seeing it. And I don't even see how the other tanks get by without it, so to me this has nothing to do with WAR job identity. All tanks should have this, be forced to learn how to use this, it's simply fundamental to tanking.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Oh come on, it makes no difference if you hit the pack ahead of you, behind you, or around you as you're making the pull. You hit the pack, sprint to the next pack and hit that, then move to the side to group them up. If you hit the second pack head on with old Overpower, you now have a pack behind you and a pack ahead of you, you have to move regardless of what shape AoE you used.

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It doesn't make a difference, except when it does. There's specific pulls where one or the other is just better. Obviously you can get by with the other, otherwise the three other tank jobs would be literally unplayable, but WAR had both.

Of course, based on comments on this change many people are allergic to actually learning something new. It's ironic that despite complaints of jobs being way too samey, and becoming increasingly more so many reject anything they actually do need to put even a minimal effort into learning, resulting in these things getting "streamlined" to the point everything is the same. It's not even like Overpower was that hard to use even without making use of its "advanced" features (using advanced very, very loosely here).

I wouldn't be bothered by people not "getting" Overpower's advantages as long as they wouldn't project their ignorance as shortcoming of the ability, which is, unfortunately what seems to have been happening and why we're now here.

When it comes to dungeons all the tanks are now pretty much identical, except that getting killed as a WAR takes some conscious effort, so guess there's no real point to any of the others anymore?

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Originally Posted by marelooke

It doesn't make a difference, except when it does. There's specific pulls where one or the other is just better. Obviously you can get by with the other, otherwise the three other tank jobs would be literally unplayable, but WAR had both.

Of course, based on comments on this change many people are allergic to actually learning something new. It's ironic that despite complaints of jobs being way too samey, and becoming increasingly more so many reject anything they actually do need to put even a minimal effort into learning, resulting in these things getting "streamlined" to the point everything is the same. It's not even like Overpower was that hard to use even without making use of its "advanced" features (using advanced very, very loosely here).

I wouldn't be bothered by people not "getting" Overpower's advantages as long as they wouldn't project their ignorance as shortcoming of the ability, which is, unfortunately what seems to have been happening and why we're now here.

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Yeah, I think that's a fair description. I don't know what prompted SE to change it exactly, whether it was actual new player complaints of the aforementioned trust AI issues, but here we are indeed. The actual pros and cons of one vs the other are quite minute, while the levels of hyperbole in this thread are really quite something.

It was honestly more like this, but instead of making the indication easier for people they just got ride of it entirely. Highly doubt this will change much for little Timmy whose rotation was shield lob-->total eclipse--> fast blade, but who am I to judge.

https://i.imgur.com/KKe0diD.png

Just a bit off, the cone centered where it is here would only reach 8/10y across, 10 being the diameter of the circle. The point is that AoE ideally should be moving to properly reposition a chaotic pack of mobs, and face them AWAY from the party, same as with a boss fight no? So if you tried that and your next GCD is a 5y circle, you're hitting half the pack or less, while your aoe range is also seeing over half unused space. Completely nonsensical for any tank to not have a cone to use there.

No reason for this even to be a WAR thing, this to me is a fundamental tank tool. You may as well make PLD the "shirk" tank and take it away from the other three, it would make literally as much sense as far as I can tell.

U know, id understand ur complaints if all the aoes warrior had were cone shaped. Well they r not.

Being able to hit stuff from further away for pulls is irrelevant, u r the one doing the pull. Run into the mobs do one circle aoe and keep sprinting to the next pack. There is literally no way for u to hit everything with old conal overpower when pulling since the mobs r spread out and it needs a target, therefore u need at the very least 2 GCDs to hit everything. TIME LOSS.

Id much rather that if im not tanking the warrior just stays put and deals more dmg w/o having to move. It was not a braincell issue, it was a bloody annoying that u had to do that issue. Thank god it is gone for good. Ull come around eventually, circle is the way, it is known.

My only guess is that you haven't been lucky enough to experience proper usage of the cone, because your reply in no way addresses my point. I've healed all the msq duties and can tell you first hand, the difference between a WAR who does and doesn't use it right is like night and day. The fact that other tanks don't even get the option just doesn't make any sense, and is probably the only reason even WARs fail to understand how it works.

I would love to have put an open invite out, to anyone on Primal (and soon NA), to come join my party and let me SHOW you what i'm talking about. It's 10,000% better for the healer, and basically all DPS except maybe ranged wouldn't mind either way.
But that's not even an option anymore. Now no one will ever even know how good it was. The devs have to fix this. I understand "no one cares bc dungeons are cazul kontent" but come on, what kind of reason is that? It's making the game worse, maybe only slightly so, but it got worse with no good reason for doing so.
in lieu of this, I went ahead and made a shitty mspaint guide to explain my point. I'd like to post it here, but alas I am actually r***'d and don't know how to do that. pending.....
I would love to hear some actual valid reasons for removing this from my tanking toolkit.

https://i.postimg.cc/C55cbvv6/CONE-A...K-TOOL-101.png

I'm bummed out after playing new warrior, it was great with a controller, now it is not so much. I will adjust as I always do with these changes, but it's just kind of meh. I don't like it, but what can you do but say it is horrible tell them it is horrible. No one really will listen about it because everyone's preferences are different. The ironic thing is we have 3 other tanks people having trouble could play. But someone who favored the other have none.

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Originally Posted by Kallis

But that's not even an option anymore. Now no one will ever even know how good it was.

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I will always remember T_T

What? Overpower was never cone. It was always a circle.

We got Cone truthers in here?

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Originally Posted by DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise

We got Cone truthers in here?

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well that didn't take long. You know Galileo was always an idol to me, and now I get to know how he felt lol. It's like the world trying to convince me the sun is revolving around us! Does it matter, well, I mean i guess not? But why are we even having this discussion in the first place, look for yourself and see! It's plain as day!

Just did a dungeon and this change is awful. It just felt like garbage. The circle gave me NOTHING positive. Killed the classes range.

Plus. WE HAD A CIRCLE > MYTHRIL TEMPEST. If people REALLY wanted to use a circle, let them just use that out of combo to pull. NOTHING STOPPED THEM.

I main warrior, and don't play any other classes seriously and this change just killed some of the identity and the fun of the class for me. Just feels bad.

Please let me know if there's a petition somewhere cuz This change is so bad, ill sign it.

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Originally Posted by DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise

What? Overpower was never cone. It was always a circle.

We got Cone truthers in here?

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Makes sense. If you stack two cones then you can make a squared circle.

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Originally Posted by mr_grey7491

Just did a dungeon and this change is awful. It just felt like garbage. The circle gave me NOTHING positive. Killed the classes range.

Plus. WE HAD A CIRCLE > MYTHRIL TEMPEST. If people REALLY wanted to use a circle, let them just use that out of combo to pull. NOTHING STOPPED THEM.

I main warrior, and don't play any other classes seriously and this change just killed some of the identity and the fun of the class for me. Just feels bad.

Please let me know if there's a petition somewhere cuz This change is so bad, ill sign it.

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i would sign it in a heart beat aswell.
talking about mythrill tempest. that was something i would do. heck in the posibility that i might have missed some with the cone or they werent targetable when is was walking to the mobs. i would just go circle.

the more i look at patch 6.1 the more i think that the people working at this dont play ff14 anymore. that means yoshida aswell. just because you purple with blm doesnt mean we can trust you with making other jobs just as good. the healer mains that cried in pain for years proved this. (been a leuker since shb, which is how i know the healer pain)

After running the new dungeon (so no problems with "established tanking patterns") I actually hate this change even more.

With no offense meant, but anyone who feels it's an "improvement", or that it "feels the same" must have just tried to tank on WAR as if it were any of the other three tank classes without actually attempting to play to its strengths.

This circle-shape really is only an improvement to those that want to level all jobs without really learning anything new, and if that's the basis on which jobs are being changed...

Man do I want the overpower back even more after running the new dungeon!! At one point you pull a mob and then theres some that spawn behind you, and overpower would have been the PERFECT tool for gathering everything up in a single gcd. Now you either remember the mechanic and just stay planted, or run forward and back

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Originally Posted by Dhaid

Man do I want the overpower back even more after running the new dungeon!! At one point you pull a mob and then theres some that spawn behind you, and overpower would have been the PERFECT tool for gathering everything up in a single gcd. Now you either remember the mechanic and just stay planted, or run forward and back

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Yes, those pulls are so perfect for pre-nerf Overpower. Makes it really sting some more...

WAR main here and after doing the latest dungeon twice and a few dungeons, I agree the change from cone to circle was completely unneeded. It felt like insult to injury when it wasn't even addressed in the Live Letter, just a "let's change it like it's minor in this patch". That cannot be further from the truth; I actually struggled immensely with picking up a number of mobs and left numerous stragglers, something that is rare for me playing this class. What makes it worse is it's not even a DRK ranged circle (actually nvm, it's the same range but DRK at least has Flood of Shadows), and that excels at picking up mobs. Echoing others, the cone allowed for more depth in the back and it was excellent at grabbing a lot of mobs from running at you to grouped up to a weird angle. It felt much more satisfying to angle yourself towards the mobs and not like standing around hurt you either because Warrior gets tons of recovery. The only times I really struggle with picking up mobs with the cone is if they do not become targetable until they spawn and target the party. But that can easily be fixed if they kept the cone but removed the need to target, a decent compromise I'd say.

When I leveled up SAM to 90, I deeply missed using the cone for the first part and when I saw it turn into a circle, I dreaded if this was to become of Warrior. Needless to say, that became true.

I am hoping this gets addressed soon. Warrior is the perfect job for me (love axes, was interested in tanking, etc) and it was a shame for the first time in 2 years I was actually frustrated playing it the last 2 days.

I already did like a dng run with new overpower and it already feels akward. Running up to enemies thinking that your overpower will reach them but just missing them by a hair.
Because old cone overpower was also a targetting you also get comformation when you are in range adding another benefit on having cone overpower.

Also the new special effect looks good. But it doesnt work how my character moves. Making the whole animatiom of old overpower shit.

Edit: can some explain to me what these medals are for underneath my name. Been more of lurker than a poster.

I have been using the new overpower and I hate it.
Please revert the change back to cone.

New overpower feels way worse than I expected. I hope by some miracle they actually revert it. Not sure if its the animation and ability to use it out of range; but the range also feels awful. It was way nicer to be able to run up to a pack and hit everything behind your target when reach it as well.

/ac "Overpower" <wait.1>
/ta <0>
/deny
/s <"Overpower"><"Really?">thanks i hate it <"No thanks."> <"I already have one.">
/targetenemy
/targetenemy
/targetenemy
/targetenemy
/targetenemy
/targetenemy
/targetenemy
/targetenemy
/targetenemy
/targetenemy
/micon "Overpower"

wow people will really complain about everything on these forums huh
Overpower as a circle is perfectly fine, even better than a cone.

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Originally Posted by Josebm

wow people will really complain about everything on these forums huh
Overpower as a circle is perfectly fine, even better than a cone.

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Circle VS cone has been a thing since ARR. My very first post was about overpower and just like then, some people hate it, some people love it. If you hated it, you just spammed flash like how you can just use mithril tempest today. The change is bad. Back to cone it must go.

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Originally Posted by Josebm

wow people will really complain about everything on these forums huh
Overpower as a circle is perfectly fine, even better than a cone.

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People have good reasons to complain about this tho. For one it's actually a big change for us who have been used to the cone and circle Overpower feels like a nerf (it's currently 5y around compared to 8y in front of you). Secondly, no one really asked for this change (from what I've seen at least) and there was little to no transparency at all, just ended up changing it without feedback. ngl, I ended up missing a lot more mobs with this new change, which is rare for me, and this is coming from someone who used all the tanks up to at least lvl 80 so I am familiar with the circle AoE. Thirdly, it doesn't make sense visually because how I see it is you slam an axe normally to the ground and get whatever in in the line of the axe, not it surrounding you, at least that's my thinking. Fourthly, I'm currently leveling BRD and been using RDM for dungeons and they got to keep their cone AoEs but somehow WAR cannot keep their cone. Finally, I've heard of the long time concern of homogenizing the roles and how jobs will be similar to each other with different flavour for simplicity, which can be a problem in the long run.

I'm glad you are liking the circle tho, I have heard some others like you do too but bear in mind not everyone has to agree, esp from those who put in the time to master their main class. I feel this change is catering towards people who use WAR once for leveling and not for us WAR mains, which is concerning imo. While I am planning on getting all classes to 90, I do want to learn how a certain class works when I'm using them, even if it's a one and done thing until next expansion.

Just my .02.

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Originally Posted by Josebm

wow people will really complain about everything on these forums huh
Overpower as a circle is perfectly fine, even better than a cone.

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There were already 3 tanks with circles for those that can't stand the cone, besides the advantages a cone provided as have been pointed out in these two threads numerous times by now.

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Originally Posted by fafrir

People have good reasons to complain about this tho. For one it's actually a big change for us who have been used to the cone and circle Overpower feels like a nerf (it's currently 5y around compared to 8y in front of you). Secondly, no one really asked for this change (from what I've seen at least) and there was little to no transparency at all, just ended up changing it without feedback. ngl, I ended up missing a lot more mobs with this new change, which is rare for me, and this is coming from someone who used all the tanks up to at least lvl 80 so I am familiar with the circle AoE. Thirdly, it doesn't make sense visually because how I see it is you slam an axe normally to the ground and get whatever in in the line of the axe, not it surrounding you, at least that's my thinking. Fourthly, I'm currently leveling BRD and been using RDM for dungeons and they got to keep their cone AoEs but somehow WAR cannot keep their cone. Finally, I've heard of the long time concern of homogenizing the roles and how jobs will be similar to each other with different flavour for simplicity, which can be a problem in the long run.

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As a former RDM I hadn't even realized the ridiculousness that they actually gave RDM a directional AoE with this expansion. It's not even that they got to keep it, they added it.

Really makes the change feel even worse, and even more arbitrary, too.

Were there too many tanks for dungeons maybe? Sucking the fun out of dungeon tanking was a good way for them to address the overabundance of tanks?
(/s and rhetorical question, it's been "tank in need" for most every roulette in my DC the past months, including, surprisingly, Alliance)

Guys, we lost.

Accept how it is now. It'll be easier... Hopefully T_T