A certain someone isn't coming back [Spoilers]

I never thought I'd say this, as Zenos presented as a rather large pain in the posterior for a great deal of the story and I was certainly no fan of his. He seemed like a trope, the ‘bored manchild’ personality was rather weak, and his single-minded obsession quickly got on my nerves.

However, I must acknowledge that he did finally receive some character development in Endwalker – albeit very Zenos-esq character development. I mean, its difficult to ignore the fact that, regardless of why he did it, he acknowledged that the WoL was too busy engaging in heroics to fight him and later on, once he was done assisting us against Endsinger, he waited patiently for us to finish talking with Meteion before addressing us and offered to let us walk away if we wanted to. And whilst it was, unfortunately, not an option anyway (which was a little irritating) I actually think that he probably would’ve let us go.

What we saw was that Zenos had learned, in his own unique way, what it means to care for someone. His demands of “I WILL have my contest!") changed to sincerely offering the WoL to share in the only form of happiness he understood. And he was finally able to see WoL as their own person. The way he referred to the WoL as “Adventurer” demonstrated that he understood there is a part of WoL that's difficult for them to express in the midst of all the heroics that were, more often than not, forced upon them.

So yeah – hate to say it, but after that interesting slice of (very specific to the character) development it IS a shame that his story ended there. Although on saying that, he certainly went out the way he wished to.

I'm honestly curious about what's going to happen to the souls from other stars, as it's noted that the Ragnarok did essentially link Ultima Thule to Etheriys due to the immense trail of aether it left behind.

Do they just inherently try to return to whence they came, or would they be drawn in whatever flow happens to be most readily available...?


As far as Zenos goes, he got about as much development as I was expecting him to so while I wasn't terribly intrigued by him past his initial departure in SB, he at least went out on a high note in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm honestly about what's going to happen to the souls from other stars, as it's noted that the Ragnarok did essentially link Ultima Thule to Etheriys due to the immense trail of aether it left behind.

Do they just inherently try to return to whence they came, or would they be drawn in whatever flow happens to be most readily available...?

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The current understanding is souls will return to the "strongest" version of the Lifestream in the near vicinity. I headcanon a caveat that "near" might not mean physical proximity, but rather some other aetheric measurement, since the big Dead Star soul cluster was collected from all over the universe, regardless of distance. But the general implication is that every planet with life has either its own Lifestream, or is "near" another bigger Lifestream that might serve several planets.

However, I also agree that the linking of the Ragnarok between Ultima Thule and Etheirys might change the proximity calculations here. It would be interesting if the aether trail would turn into a sort of "river of souls" funneling into Etheirys. Do the other Lifestreams that Meteion had sucked all the souls from even exist anymore?

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Originally Posted by Jemachu

Honestly I'm pretty bothered by this being it. Not because I want him to live or come back, but because his purpose in the narrative beyond StB that I was hoping would have some sort of payoff down the road a la the Ascians, never came to fruition.

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I'll throw some bait you might be able to keep holding out for. Also, Tinfoil hats, everyone, it's time for a quick lesson on the Void:

1) We don't know how Voidsent are created, specifically. If they are Dark-element creatures like Sineaters (which should be overflowing with Dark Energy), or Dynamis based creatures (and Aether Starved). The lore suggests they are eternally Aether starved.... so there is support in a connection between Voidsent and Dynamis-based creatures (like Blasphemies)

2) The lore is contradictory, but we are led to believe a person can become a voidsent. Lady Amandine of Haukke Manor is an example, although there is the possibility she is merely possessed. In Haukke Hard Mode, we see more of this, although it is Woodwailers becoming possessed and "changed" into voidsent against their will.

3) Also some contradictory stuff, but seems Voidsent don't really "die-die", but are sent back to the Void upon destruction. This is not unlike extra demons/devils in many fantasy settings such as Forgotten Realms.

In our experience, we have fought -and killed- both Diabolos and Feridad more than once. There are examples in lore about the voidsent having vessels allowing them into our world, or possessing bodies, but it's not clear.




QED: It is entirely possibly Zenos has become a voidsent before or during our fight, and entirely possible he is now in the 13th shard.

...I still think he's dead-dead personally, just putting it out there.

Good.
He was beyond annoying.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

After we found out about that I assumed those souls were missing because they got slurped up into the cage. I guess with Meteion gone they'll be free to leave now, but probably won't end up back in Etheirys particular lifestream.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm honestly curious about what's going to happen to the souls from other stars, as it's noted that the Ragnarok did essentially link Ultima Thule to Etheriys due to the immense trail of aether it left behind.

Do they just inherently try to return to whence they came, or would they be drawn in whatever flow happens to be most readily available...?

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We could pull Hades' and Hyth's souls all the way from Etheirys, so presumably they can get back there.

I actually wondered if Etheirys might be the central point for the Lifestream of the whole universe, as an explanation for its richness in aether.

Voidsent were noted as not being able to truly die unless they've crossed over to the Source completely as all but the weakest of them simply use host bodies as proxies while they operate there, and if "killed" their souls simply return to their original body back in the void. The ones who do bring their bodies with them however, are implied to simply die as any other being of Etheriys would with their souls returning to the Lifestream.

It's also been noted that the strength of a voidsent's vessel is a limiting factor, so I'm a little unsettled by the thought of what could come to inhabit a body with supposedly "limitless potential" as Elidibus put it...

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Originally Posted by Iscah

We could pull Hades' and Hyth's souls all the way from Etheirys, so presumably they can get back there.

I actually wondered if Etheirys might be the central point for the Lifestream of the whole universe, as an explanation for its richness in aether.

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We had just flown there from Etheirys though, creating an aether trail thick enough for Zenos to swim along (mostly) unaided.

I was basing my 'probably not Etheirys' idea on a line about souls migrating to other nearby stars if theirs dies. Thinking about it though, depending on just how thoroughly the Meteia scoured the Universe of life, Etheirys might indeed be host to the closest available lifestream.

Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, Totally unfinished story line goes unfulfilled in FF14?!?! M8 plz.

-1: Why is Zenos so strong? (What is "Big hot tacos" and why does it play for him at the end of EW?)

-2: What happened to Exarch-Timeline Zenos? Did he die to black rose? If not, to what lengths would he go to find the WoL again.
*2.5: Zenos became Shinry by absorbing his aether completely. What's to say he can't absorb Alexander and use the power of time. For him, something like this would be no less than expected.

-3: Just because Zeno's body dies doesn't mean he's dead. As seen after STB. Not just that, but just because the body is dead doesn't me he can't use it.

-4: How did the Exarch-Timeline Umbral Calamity happen if Zenos Killed Varis to stop the black rose? Did this happen differently in the new timeline?
*4.5: The flood of light in the first wasn't responsible for Black Rose existing. It only increased the potency. But the Black Rose ended up not being used at all in our timeline. Why/How/What changed?

*2.5+4.5: Did Zenos come back to the past from the Exarch-Timeline to stop the Black Rose from killing WoL?
**Couldn't our Timeline Zenos do the exact same thing in reverse as G'raha Tia did with his past and future self?
***Is Zenos just going to fade away in the land of Dynamis and nothing comes of it?

I mean, at the very least, given his new mental disposition at the end of EW he could at the very least become a reoccurring or even theme based boss fight. Given his ability to become a primal, he could even become a replacement for the "Unreal" trial duties.

Tbh i kind of hope they don’t have a Void expansion revolve around him. He’s had 3 straight expansions now, and none of them made him particularly interesting to me, and his presence came at the cost of many other more well written and interesting characters, i’d really rather not have to sit through another expansion of voidsent zenos sitting on a throne, preaching about things to come that just won’t even occur in the expansion, aka what happened with his ShB monologues, very little actually came true in EW.

The fact that they specifically went and said "Yes, he's really dead" comes across to me as them specifically wanting to shut down speculation and quell any hopes/fears from his fans/haters...though that's evidently been only partially successful.

Pffft, Yoshida isn't the boss of me. I will hang out with my bestie. I will challenge him to Triple Triad and chocobo racing. I will listen to Luke Allen-Gale shout "HAVE YOU THE ACCELERATION, MY FRIEND?" as he pops Super Sprint in the last leg of the race.

(In seriousness, I thought EW was a fantastic arc and ending for Zenos, but I still think it would have been hysterically funny and entertaining, now that he's basically been trained on how to be a proper Friend to the WoL, to have him tag along on dumb fetch quests and mini-games. I shall indeed be waiting for you upon the Island Sanctuary, my friend...)

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Originally Posted by Belzarr

-1: (What is "Big hot tacos" and why does it play for him at the end of EW?)

-2: What happened to Exarch-Timeline Zenos? Did he die to black rose? If not, to what lengths would he go to find the WoL again.
*2.5: Zenos became Shinry by absorbing his aether completely. What's to say he can't absorb Alexander and use the power of time. For him, something like this would be no less than expected.

-4: How did the Exarch-Timeline Umbral Calamity happen if Zenos Killed Varis to stop the black rose? Did this happen differently in the new timeline?
*4.5: The flood of light in the first wasn't responsible for Black Rose existing. It only increased the potency. But the Black Rose ended up not being used at all in our timeline. Why/How/What changed?

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1 -The lyric is is "Beat the Heart of Sabik", from the Primals version of the Ultima Weapon theme. It plays there because the Final Day's phase 1 music is a medley of all the final boss themes across every expansion and doesn't have much to do with Zenos himself.

2/4 - It's implied from the SHB intro cinematic that in the original timeline we beat Elidibus in Zenos's body at Ghimlyt, whereas in our timeline the Exarch's summoning attempts caused us to lose and need rescuing. This is also likely why the Black Rose wasn't deployed. In the Original timeline we kept pushing the Garleans back to the point of desperation, in the new timeline we and the Scions were away on the First and couldn't press the Garleans as heavily, meaning Varis never got pushed to that point before he died. Essentially the Exarch's interference managed to remove both causes for the 8th Umbral Calamity by both preventing the First being primed for a rejoining and unintentionally removing the impetus for the Black Rose to be deployed so widely in the first place.

What happened to Zenos in this case isn't ever explicitly spelled out but given the light enhanced Rose's effect on Aether he probably wouldn't have been able to keep body hopping if he did get hit with it. Again his wereabouts in that timeline are unstated but it can be inferred that Zenos did not kill Varis in that timeline. He might have died/never regained his body/regained his body at Ghimlyt without the opportunity to return to Garlemald before the Rose was deployed or any number of other things. It's defintiely never been implied that the Zenos we deal with is from the other timeline and we have rough continuity on his movements from his first death through to regaining his body so that seems very unlikely all things considered.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

(In seriousness, I thought EW was a fantastic arc and ending for Zenos, but I still think it would have been hysterically funny and entertaining, now that he's basically been trained on how to be a proper Friend to the WoL, to have him tag along on dumb fetch quests and mini-games. I shall indeed be waiting for you upon the Island Sanctuary, my friend...)

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As much as I am (A) sick of him and (B) not particularly wanting to see him redeemed, I have to ponder that outcome too. After he's spent all this time stomping after us going "we're both the same! So bloodthirsty! We both just love killing things, right?!" and yet I think this is actually the first time he's seen how we deal with a defeated enemy who isn't still trying to fight us, and that we show compassion to Meteion rather than pursuing her to the death.

Some part of me would like for that to have made an impression on him, and perhaps in a bizarre slightly-comic AU, he might hit a sort of is this the true source of strength?! revelation and start clumsily trying to be nice to people to work out where we're coming from.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The fact that they specifically went and said "Yes, he's really dead" comes across to me as them specifically wanting to shut down speculation and quell any hopes/fears from his fans/haters...though that's evidently been only partially successful.

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Agreed. I hope it’s honestly just put to bed.

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The fact that they specifically went and said "Yes, he's really dead" comes across to me as them specifically wanting to shut down speculation and quell any hopes/fears from his fans/haters...though that's evidently been only partially successful.

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But we know he can come back from death though? That's what has been tripping me up so much between this interview and the recent Q&A, that they focus so much on saying "See, he physically died, he's gone" like we didn't watch him slit his own throat at the end of Stormblood lmao.

He is for sure coming back, otherwise they would have said that he had burned up his corporeal and spiritual aether in the fight against the WoL. They gave that answer to explain that Hydaelyn was gone for good, but didn't use it on the one character that we would need that level of being "actually for reals dead this time".

Plus his avatar is a dangling thread that Yoshi-P said to focus on that never got resolved. He's coming back (or at least his body is anyway).

They came out and said that seemingly because people didn't get the impression from the Q&A that he was actually dead, so they needed to spell it out even more plainly...though at this point I don't think everyone will believe it unless we run into him in the Lifestream or something.

He literally said he wanted to die, and that was proof enough for me that he was actually gone, since it quite frankly would've been idiotic to defy his stated intent again after he had already cheated death once to get what he wanted.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

They came out and said that seemingly because people didn't get the impression from the Q&A that he was actually dead, so they needed to spell it out even more plainly...though at this point I don't think everyone will believe it unless we run into him in the Lifestream or something.

He literally said he wanted to die, and that was proof enough for me that he was actually gone, since it quite frankly would've been idiotic to defy his stated intent again after he had already cheated death once to get what he wanted.

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Am I reading the same interview? None of the answers say that his role in the narrative is complete. There's a bunch of "He died" replies but again, that doesn't matter, we know he can come back from physical death. They could clear this up in an instant by saying that he consumed his spiritual aether in the battle, and that he's gone for real like they did with Hydaelyn. The fact that they keep insisting that he's gone because he died physically is probably the biggest hint that he's coming back lmao

That being said, I think we're mostly just gonna see his body down the road (controlled by his avatar) with Zenos himself showing up very rarely, perhaps only at the end.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I'd definitely put Emet in the field of 'dark and edgy pretty men'. Even if he's more than just 'dark and edgy pretty man' by story, it really can't be discounted that a big part of his appeal really was that he's a charismatic villain with something resembling a point, who is also by objective measures an uber-war-criminal, and wizard of darkness, whose true name is from the god of the underworld. If you're into Zenos because of the 'dark and edgy factor', you're into Emet-Selch for the same reasons, even if there's other appeals there too.

For the record, my gut-vibe of characters competing with Zenos in the field of 'dark and edgy pretty man'...

-Estinien (the diet variant)
-Emet-Selch
-Gaius, but only post-Stormblood
-Elidibus (not dark palette-wise, but definitely tonally, and edgy enough to compensate)
-Mitron if you're into a fixer-upper job
-Fandaniel, in two different flavors
-Hesperos

And let's be honest, if you want to flex into headcanon, the only Ascians that can't fit into this are the ones that are canonically women (Igeyorhm, Loghrif, Emmerololth). Even then, there's an angle you can work.

But in Stormblood when Zenos was current, none of them were really a thing. Estinien existed, sure, but wasn't really a major player (or known as hot). Dark and edgy women were putting up good numbers at the time (Fordola, Yotsuyu, Ysayle was still semi-recent), but I think we all have to admit that they serve different fanbases without as massive an overlap as you might first think; Zenos and Yotsuyu appeal to different crowds. Zenos was the only 'edgy man' game in town around Stormblood; it's just that over time that market split.

Thank you for reading (or more likely skipping over) my pointless and semi-serious deliberation on FFXIV shipping/character-focused fanbases. I have put too much thought into this. I could do a whole presentation on this, but I don't really have much in the way of a thesis statement, and also nobody cares.

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I'm sorry for jumping back to this (as I only just noticed your reply to me Cleretic) but, you're fine! I actually liked your deliberation! (And it wasn't pointless at all! :D)

My comment about Zenos being an edgy prettyboy was more just about his physical appearence (read: hair) that gave that stereotype than anything else as far as I was concerned (Emet after all had short hair, well, as his young Solus form - it was a little longer but still just above the shoulders shortish in his original form), I admit though, I guess that was more just because of my own preferences, as I'm not really into long-haired men, I tend to prefer mine more shorter haired and more intelligent (like Cid ;)), and unfortunately Zenos never really struck me as being intelligent (no, I'm not going to make blonde jokes here), he was just a bored, spoiled princeling whose entire existence was pure hedonism. Which probably did not help his descent into sociopathy.

Irony is, Emet (as Solus) probably did not help things either with his constant bellitlement of Zenos and his father for having "inferior bodies", not even understanding the context why Emet was like that.

I do agree Emet in hindsight did have a certain edgyness to him, but he tended to keep it cleverly concealled under his constant one-liners and monologuing, but you did see some of it slip out in the Capitol just before the Amaurot dungeon, and definetely after that (witness his outright rage when Alphinaud dared compare his suffering of losing the Ancient civilization to the suffering of the Sundered, it was like Alphy had not just pressed his buttons but outright smashed them). So I conceded on that too in hindsight.

And as for Emet apparently getting a pass for all the despicable acts he perpetuated over the years, he doesn't for me - I hate him with every fibre of my being for everything he did, every war-mongering empire he created from the Allag to Eulmore, and especially his own sociapathic manipulation of the WoL throughout ShB (culminating in the clearly sadistic pleasure he took seeing the WoL succumb to the corrupted light and the almost unabashed glee and anticipation of them turning into a sineater), he was an utter monster of the highest order.

And yet, unlike Zenos, who simply pursued the WoL for a single-minded purpose of just trying to regain that single moment he finally felt something, Emet redeemed himself by finally accepting he was wrong, finally allowing himself to rest, and, saving the WoL on several occassions (from Elidibus in the Seat of Sacrifice, and of course, the big climax in Ultima Thule), and for that, and his zany antics and one liners indeared him to me in a way Zenos never could. (Where as Zenos was never funny).

Ah well, I don't know, I guess Zenos was just a villian that was, by Yoshi's own addmitance, to be a hate sink, and thus doomed to always meant to be hated and well, they well and truely succeeded on that level as far as I'm concerned. I'm just glad he's now gone, as he just well and truely outstayed his welcome.

I think it would be really cool if Zenos came back, but in a specific way;

We think hes dead but his avatar possesses his body the moment we teleport out and heals it, 'locking' his soul into the back-seat of said body. The voidsent then is fully in control. Could have for an interesting villain.

In the end we kill said villain, giving bestie his body back, but hes like completely changed because hes been in a prison effectively watching atrocities and we are the ones who free'd him.

He then becomes our rival like in Pokemon, occasionally battling us, sometimes helping us. LOL

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

My comment about Zenos being an edgy prettyboy was more just about his physical appearence (read: hair) that gave that stereotype than anything else as far as I was concerned (Emet after all had short hair, well, as his young Solus form - it was a little longer but still just above the shoulders shortish in his original form), I admit though, I guess that was more just because of my own preferences, as I'm not really into long-haired men, I tend to prefer mine more shorter haired and more intelligent (like Cid ;)), and unfortunately Zenos never really struck me as being intelligent (no, I'm not going to make blonde jokes here), he was just a bored, spoiled princeling whose entire existence was pure hedonism. Which probably did not help his descent into sociopathy.

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There's an interesting point to be observed that while we're told that Zenos is smart, the public image of him is essentially 'dumb as bricks', because he's never put in a position where that intelligence is used. Which come to think of it is sort of a general blind spot of the game's villain roster; most of them just don't get to seem smart through actual feats. The only ones that really get to flaunt intelligence in the MSQ have been Thordan and Fandaniel, and I don't think we'd put 'smart guy' anywhere near the top of Fandaniel's character traits.

Zenos was never really a character designed for people to like, though, they were definitely angling for 'love to hate' with him--which I personally think they got to in Endwalker, but he was a real slog until then. All the villains have an angle of 'love to hate', but there's a pronounced element with most where you're at least meant to be able to genuinely like them as a person (consider 'like Emet as a smug git you want to punch in the face' versus 'like Emet as a tragic figure'). But with Zenos there really isn't anything but that 'love to hate', which it turns out a lot of this game's fanbase needs to genuinely get into a villain.

Zenos does have his share of intelligent dialogue, though. He absolutely demolishes Jullus in a philosophical battle of words. It's just not the focal point of his character.

He's polarizing, but that probably has more to do with his introduction in Stormblood than anything else. Even the initial interviews that first discussed Zenos' character were very focused around 'Check out the CE statue of our new long haired katana wielding ultimate villain, who is totally not Sephiroth! <wink> You're gonna love to hate him!' But that's a recurring problem with Stormblood's writing as a whole - it by and large treats the MSQ as just a set of fond, nostalgic references to other, better stories in the series rather than putting in effort to you feel invested in this one.

Shadowbringers onwards does an excellent job of rewriting him into a more interesting character, if you're able to move past your initial impressions of him. I think the turning point for me was when he intimidated Elidibus out of his own body by literally just staring him down, ended the Ascian plot to kill millions with the Black Rose, and took Gaius and Estinien on in a 2v1 just for funsies without harming either of them, all in the span of a single cutscene. He spent a lot of screentime unnecessarily brooding or obsessing, but he did have his moments. I think that the job change was a smart idea as well - it moved him away from that Sephiroth expy association and more towards becoming his own character.

I've already said my piece, but honestly - support from friends is one thing, but when an enemy sails the stars, breaks reality, scoffs at the apocalypse and then basically tells you you are better than whatever the hell that thing is....

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

I am now curious what several of the people in this thread and this thread will think of this, especially after accusing the rest of us of being somehow blind to the "obvious" return of that character.

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Well I am glad you are so curious and that you only see posting here as a contest.

I was first captivated by Zenos when he was compared to Fandaniel. They seemed like unlikely allies. Both nihilistic. But Fandaniel was obviously the brains and Zenos the brawn. Fandaniel's attitude and inability to understand Zenos' motivations was a convincing dynamic.

Part of them not agreeing on the means to the end (annihilation) was then expounded upon in Elpis when we met Hermes. Hermes suffered from the effects of dynamis, became preoccupied and spent time alone and marinating in dynamis as he awaited the meteia's answers, and also learned to harness the power of dynamis for cruelty (to Zenos' disdain) as Amon in his recollection of Allag and his return as Fandaniel-In-Asahi's-Body. Fandaniel taking Asahi's body suddenly made sense later when you realize Asahi's sycophancy as a result of dynamis.

Both wanted to die. Both seemed really overpowered and we weren't sure in the patches leading up to Endwalker who would be the biggest bad dude between the two of them. But the interaction between the two really made clear they were operating on different wavelengths. And that was made literal within the story.

Zenos was confusingly paralleled with Venat, portrayed walking through Amaurot (not sure why and would like to know if he was really dreaming or time traveling or what). Asking us if our journey was worthwhile. Challenging us to a duel to the death while embodying a primal and casting primal spells.

Then, like Fandaniel, appropriating a primal for his own ends to kill himself, he became Shinryu and followed us to the only place he could conceivably die as a practical ascian, away from other mortals and the lifestream and at the hand of someone who gave his life meaning. That was why the end of the universe was significant to him. Not because that was where a huge egg of all the despair of the universe was being stored.

And it was a place Fandaniel's actions (both unintentionally and intentionally) created. A decaying place he might actually understand and feel at home in after accepting his realized self--Amon (in the lifestream).

(Ctd.)
Zenos is a dude I consider almost immune to dynamis. He is a sociopath. He was always a sociopath. And somehow they were able to make this person into the biggest hype man I have ever seen. It was absurd and such a relief after the scene with Meteion asking if we can be friends. I don't know if he was meant to represent that primal part of us that despite angst and despair keeps us going...or if like Meteion this was his attempt at communicating through the only means he had (if Meteion wasn't taught to walk, well, here is a guy who was...A TEST OF YOUR REFLEXES!!!), or what the intent was. But he was important to me because of what he showed about other characters and their relation to dynamis.

People on this forum who have never touched a philosophy book in their life and go on that Hydaelyn committed genocide, that it is always a clear-cut battle of good versus evil, people who cannot tolerate nuance, may actually find their own parallels between Zenos and Venat in their general absurdist philosophy about life and their commitment to their goals (both being portrayed as radicals shunned by their societies for pretty dramatic actions that universally destroyed their societies). They both died at the hands of the person who gave their life meaning. They met satisfying ends in the same manner.

I never understood the community's focus on the importance of his voidsent. I still don't understand the reaper significance besides a)Garlemald and b)the reaper coming to end the tale of the star and be slain by the hero of the new day, letting hope live on.

I really love what they did with Zenos. I have faith that whatever they do with his story will be interesting but I also love the existing opportunities to compare him with other characters and found those moments and events to be meaningful and open to interpretation.

I really wish people focused more on what they got out of the story instead of on generalized complaints. Reading reactions to these divisive characters is enlightening. Upvotes really do nothing to show which posts are valuable contributions here. They usually reflect the hivemind and emotional reaction to inflammatory phrasing in the first couple sentences.

Wild to me that people in this thread think that they were struggling to figure out how to make Zenos in Endwalker rather than them doubling down on everything they made him be. They clearly had 0 regrets with Zenos' role in Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by KingEli

Wild to me that people in this thread think that they were struggling to figure out how to make Zenos in Endwalker rather than them doubling down on everything they made him be. They clearly had 0 regrets with Zenos' role in Endwalker.

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I mean, YoshiP himself basically said they didn't really know what to do with him in EW so they kind of just stuck him in there because they had to.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

I mean, YoshiP himself basically said they didn't really know what to do with him in EW so they kind of just stuck him in there because they had to.

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That's not what he said, he said "They were worried about how to handle Zenos. He is the only one who sees the WoL as an adventurer and not just a hero, so the fight is more of an extra than a final boss". It's pretty clear that it wasn't about them not knowing what to do and more how precisely they wanted to get him across, especially with his dialogue in Endwalker, everything is very deliberate and to think otherwise just feels like cope tbh.

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Originally Posted by KingEli

That's not what he said, he said "They were worried about how to handle Zenos. He is the only one who sees the WoL as an adventurer and not just a hero, so the fight is more of an extra than a final boss". It's pretty clear that it wasn't about them not knowing what to do and more how precisely they wanted to get him across, especially with his dialogue in Endwalker, everything is very deliberate and to think otherwise just feels like cope tbh.

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I mean most of the build up for him in ShB just didn’t come true in EW. His whole major speech at the end of ShB of us coming to him full of rage didn’t really happen. He didn’t really do anything to warrant it either…which is either they copped out of having him do something drastic and major to us or our allies or they forgot about it.

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Originally Posted by kyzy

I think it would be really cool if Zenos came back, but in a specific way;

We think hes dead but his avatar possesses his body the moment we teleport out and heals it, 'locking' his soul into the back-seat of said body. The voidsent then is fully in control. Could have for an interesting villain.

In the end we kill said villain, giving bestie his body back, but hes like completely changed because hes been in a prison effectively watching atrocities and we are the ones who free'd him.

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soooo..... transformers prime megatron?

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Originally Posted by KingEli

That's not what he said, he said "They were worried about how to handle Zenos. He is the only one who sees the WoL as an adventurer and not just a hero, so the fight is more of an extra than a final boss". It's pretty clear that it wasn't about them not knowing what to do and more how precisely they wanted to get him across, especially with his dialogue in Endwalker, everything is very deliberate and to think otherwise just feels like cope tbh.

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Exactly. You can interpret what he meant how you want to interpret it. I'm not saying what they did with him wasn't deliberate, but it was very clear he was just an extra piece in the story and they just forced him in because he didn't fit. If you took what YoshiP said as how you describe it then that's fine, but I'm basing it on how Zenos actually came across in EW. Copium indeed

Judging from the no-context scene of some Ascians (?) attempting to summon voidsent in the 6.1 trailer (Which seems to be a flashback due to the filter), I'm having a stronger hunch then ever that Zenos' avatar is going to end up being a problem...moreso with that ominous voice saying "Ah, I am returned at last"...

I cannot make out what the insanely distorted voice accompanying the aforementioned scene is saying, though.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

They came out and said that seemingly because people didn't get the impression from the Q&A that he was actually dead, so they needed to spell it out even more plainly...though at this point I don't think everyone will believe it unless we run into him in the Lifestream or something.

He literally said he wanted to die, and that was proof enough for me that he was actually gone, since it quite frankly would've been idiotic to defy his stated intent again after he had already cheated death once to get what he wanted.

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This interview was conducted before the PLL actually, on Feb 8th, so what was said here and the suspicions that were aroused from the PLL aren't really matching up and, to be frank, are somewhat inconsistent in tone. I think they had the opportunity to squash any speculation during the PLL but they didn't for some reason. They went with this "see how you feel" business which doesn't really present a conclusive answer since everyone interprets whether Zenos "died" or "died died" very differently.

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Originally Posted by OGChocolateThunder

This interview was conducted before the PLL actually, on Feb 8th, so what was said here and the suspicions that were aroused from the PLL aren't really matching up and, to be frank, are somewhat inconsistent in tone. I think they had the opportunity to squash any speculation during the PLL but they didn't for some reason. They went with this "see how you feel" business which doesn't really present a conclusive answer since everyone interprets whether Zenos "died" or "died died" very differently.

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Yet in the same interview you have Oda-san wondering if they should have put some sort of "He's dead Jim" subtitle during that part.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Yet in the same interview you have Oda-san wondering if they should have put some sort of "He's dead Jim" subtitle during that part.

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They did. They were straightforward regarding the fates of Venat, Zodiark, Emet, and Hythlodaeus, going so far to talk about what happened to their souls. With Zenos all they talk about is his body which, tbh, doesn't mean much. The "Will Zenos come back to life again?" question only needed a yes or no response, none of this "how do you feel" shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by OGChocolateThunder

They did. They were straightforward regarding the fates of Venat, Zodiark, Emet, and Hythlodaeus, going so far to talk about what happened to their souls. With Zenos all they talk about is his body which, tbh, doesn't mean much. The "Will Zenos come back to life again?" question only needed a yes or no response, none of this "how do you feel" shenanigans.

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True it didn't need the how do you feel bit. Yet Yoshida also told people to rewatch that cutscene and to think about what's being said and then what do you think that means? Along with well he stopped breathing, riiiiiiiight? So he must be dead. Course they could have avoided all of his EW bits if they had left him dead at the end of 4.0. But no they had him come back and make people wonder if the WoL could actually die if a person with a fake echo can just come back. He had such potential, but they went and had him sit around for a whole expansion and some change. While occasionally giving Fandaniel death glares at his "almost" harming the WoL a few times. I'm glad he's dead dead and really hope we don't see his body being dragged around by his reaper avatar. I do hope they do something with it though cause that's a waste of a unique model to barely show it.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I mean most of the build up for him in ShB just didn’t come true in EW. His whole major speech at the end of ShB of us coming to him full of rage didn’t really happen. He didn’t really do anything to warrant it either…which is either they copped out of having him do something drastic and major to us or our allies or they forgot about it.

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Do you not understand red herrings and how they work in writing? 5.5 was written while EW was almost done with development and in fact proves even more so that it was intentional. They didn't "forget" about anything, the full of rage was meant to be him controlling Zodiark to wreaking havoc but he wasn't able to nor was it Fandaniel's plan. It was a fake out, and the game is very aware of that

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Originally Posted by KingEli

Do you not understand red herrings and how they work in writing? 5.5 was written while EW was almost done with development and in fact proves even more so that it was intentional. They didn't "forget" about anything, the full of rage was meant to be him controlling Zodiark to wreaking havoc but he wasn't able to nor was it Fandaniel's plan. It was a fake out, and the game is very aware of that

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Yes, just like how everything in endwalker is a fakeout. The final days actually being a threat and causing worldwide havoc, the body snatch scene, the scions in ultima thule. Yes it’s all fakeouts, and that’s why it sucks lmao.

Also...we just recently learned there were rewrites...so uh it most likely wasnt intentional for that to not come to fruition.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes, just like how everything in endwalker is a fakeout. The final days actually being a threat and causing worldwide havoc, the body snatch scene, the scions in ultima thule. Yes it’s all fakeouts, and that’s why it sucks lmao.

Also...we just recently learned there were rewrites...so uh it most likely wasnt intentional for that to not come to fruition.

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Sure, there were rewrites, but we've generally learned from previous expansions that the final script for an expansion is being done around when the .4 patches are released, if not earlier. There just straight-up wasn't time for them to have rewritten something between 5.55 and 6.0.

Rewrites happened, but you can't declare rewrites to be the fault of everything you don't like or understand. Sometimes things don't play out as you personally expect or want them to, and that's just how it was always planned to be.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Sure, there were rewrites, but we've generally learned from previous expansions that the final script for an expansion is being done around when the .4 patches are released, if not earlier. There just straight-up wasn't time for them to have rewritten something between 5.55 and 6.0.

Rewrites happened, but you can't declare rewrites to be the fault of everything you don't like or understand. Sometimes things don't play out as you personally expect or want them to, and that's just how it was always planned to be.

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Generally is an understatement. The fact is we don’t entirely know, especially with all of the delays that EW brought. I never said they’re the fault of everything people don’t like or understand, but there’s very obvious signs of it like empty plot threads that lead to nothing or dropped plot threads entirely that make it incredibly obvious. Writers aren’t perfect, it’s time to start understanding that instead of worshipping everything.