Is it just me or is WHM suffering?

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Sometimes it's hard to sympathise because of ideas like this. A lot of us liked the complexity healers had in 2.x/3.x, but the crybabies had to get them dumbed down to what we have now. And yet you still want to further simplify things. SE may have gone too far, but this is practically what the playerbase asked for.

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Accuracy did not add any kind of complexity at all. You either melded as much as you could until you hit the caster cap, or you just missed over and over. Piety is no different. You either need it or you don't. It does absolutely nothing if you don't need it, whereas Det/Crit/DH/Spd always provide some "benefit" regardless of how much you have, even if it's not optimal (esp in the case of spd).

MP management in this game is a joke, because you don't actually get to make any decisions about how you go about it. You press Lucid on cooldown and you use your other abilities that provide additional mana either when they come up (eg Assize) or whenever you need to spend them without overcapping (eg Aetherflow, Addersgall spenders, Thin Air). You can't choose to generate/conserve mana in any way other than not doing anything at all. The fact that casters are the only ones that have to "manage" a resource like this is sort of hilarious. When physical classes would run dry on TP they just whined until it was removed. Can't see any of them clamouring for the "good old days" of "TP management". For added hilarity, what casters are left with is essentially TP 2.0.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

What really chaffs my everything about piety is how detrimentally it can effect you when synced. Gear bloated with piety? Welp! Shall meld the other stats then! Oh wait materia is disabled when synced and 99% of content is done synced so now I have gcd of slow, no crit, and useless MP regen in content that barely requires any healing to begin with. Brilliant!

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I hate a lot of things about how syncing works and this is definitely one of them. I love having my stats invalidated instead of just squished to the ilevel sync caps!

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

You can't choose to generate/conserve mana in any way other than not doing anything at all.

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This is where cure 1 should normaly come into play, but the issue is simply that its healing is too weak and wastes a lot of potential damage output.

The current 15% chance means you would need about 6 cure 1 casts for 1 free cure 2, and even that is not reliable, thats simply not worth the potency cost, even if that would have saved you several thousands of MP, because at that point you are saving up too much MP. But that is also somewhat unbalanced, since you arent supposed to use it 6 times in a row anyway, just weave in a few cure 1's between the cure 2, and you save up some mana, with an occasional free cast.

Cure 1 even in the late game, is an MP saving healing ability, and its very niche on that, but it exists for the purpose of saving MP. MP regeneration is at that time faster than what cure 1 consumes. Its just that its too niche and weak in most cases, to a point where healers simply decide its not worth having. And then when it goes wrong, they obviously complain about running out of MP.

But to fix it i would adjust 1 thing:
Instead of a 15% chance, it should be a 100% chance of reducing the cure 2 cost (just make it 400mp then), to make it worth it: 2x 800 potency at a 1600MP cost, or 500+800 potency at a 800MP cost. In which a single cure 1 cast allows a quite big save on MP and only cost 300 potency (its still a 20% reduction, but a fair enough one).
This however makes it more reliable in usage (and therefor adding a lot of convenience), and although some will still think its too weak. If they run out of MP, its their own fault for not understanding MP management.

Just because cure 1 has a lower healing value, doesnt instantly mean its useless. Because when out of MP, this little bit of healing suddenly becomes infinitely more than not healing at all (and only 40% weaker than cure 2 spamming).

Alternatively you could play a healer that has a ludicrous number of off-GCD heals and bring your target back up instantly, for free, costing you zero MP and never once interrupting your damage for it.

Instead of playing the healer with design trapped in ARR, bothering with spells like Cure so you can waste time on the thrill of "MP management". While the other healers have gimmicks that actually bring positive contributions to the group, instead of being focused on minimizing how much your class is gimping your group.

You clearly show that you have no idea how class variety and balancing can work, because there are a LOT of ways to achieve similar results.

Resource management is a very common thing in many games, and depending on the class/job it can be a variety of resources. MP is just like HP, GCD time, stamina (not the HP type, but the type FPS games often have to prevent spamming) a resource that in some cases needs management. A good example is the medic in tf2 in healing time, sure, he can overheal the heavy constantly, but that outputs only 50% of the healing compared to just making sure the heavy doesnt hit 0, and keeps him slightly below 300hp. This is resource management dedicated towards just 1 class (to compare, the engineer and heavy are very ammo oriented, and the spy is cloak time oriented, there are plenty of resource management classes there). Thats why making WHM like the other healers not rely on GCD a bad fix. Resource management is a feature that can make a class interesting.

The real fix is making sure that WHM isnt losing out, and this can (for example) be done by making the GCD damage more potent. But obviously, this should be situational, so maybe instead of a static value, its boosted by healing others. Lets say each cure cast adds 100 potency, and suddenly it doesnt matter you only cast it a few times, because each cast is significantly stronger. This is a completely diffirent approach while preserving most of the MP management aspects. And even adds a new one that can be managed (as in this case it behaves more like the FPS type of stamina).

Giving lots of oGCD healing abilities is just a cheap fix that realy doesnt create any dynamic interactions within the class itself. And while you might not like MP management, some do. Its a bad thing to make all classes suit to most players, because then those players will always just go for the strongest... a meta. If the classes vary a lot, then this becomes almost impossible to do. And yes, some classes might be generaly too hard, but its usualy those classes that also end up being the strongest (because they are generaly made a bit OP to compensate for difficulty). Variety is important. Dont make every class the same.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

You clearly show that you have no idea how class variety and balancing can work, because there are a LOT of ways to achieve similar results.

Resource management is a very common thing in many games, and depending on the class/job it can be a variety of resources. MP is just like HP, GCD time, stamina (not the HP type, but the type FPS games often have to prevent spamming) a resource that in some cases needs management. A good example is the medic in tf2 in healing time, sure, he can overheal the heavy constantly, but that outputs only 50% of the healing compared to just making sure the heavy doesnt hit 0, and keeps him slightly below 300hp. This is resource management dedicated towards just 1 class (to compare, the engineer and heavy are very ammo oriented, and the spy is cloak time oriented, there are plenty of resource management classes there). Thats why making WHM like the other healers not rely on GCD a bad fix. Resource management is a feature that can make a class interesting.

The real fix is making sure that WHM isnt losing out, and this can (for example) be done by making the GCD damage more potent. But obviously, this should be situational, so maybe instead of a static value, its boosted by healing others. Lets say each cure cast adds 100 potency, and suddenly it doesnt matter you only cast it a few times, because each cast is significantly stronger. This is a completely diffirent approach while preserving most of the MP management aspects. And even adds a new one that can be managed (as in this case it behaves more like the FPS type of stamina).

Giving lots of oGCD healing abilities is just a cheap fix that realy doesnt create any dynamic interactions within the class itself. And while you might not like MP management, some do. Its a bad thing to make all classes suit to most players, because then those players will always just go for the strongest... a meta. If the classes vary a lot, then this becomes almost impossible to do. And yes, some classes might be generaly too hard, but its usualy those classes that also end up being the strongest (because they are generaly made a bit OP to compensate for difficulty). Variety is important. Dont make every class the same.

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Are we talking about ARR content? Because it sure seems like you do.
A Cure cast adds 100 potency of what and to what exactly? 100 Cure potency to the next Cure cast?
If it's that, Cure would become slightly better in low level content but will be insignificant once again come HW. Unless, of course, you plan to delete Lilies and all oGCDs.

A Cure cast is still a full GCD lost to wet noodle healing with zero damage return. Even if this 100 potency buff would be a stacking, permanent buff until current fight ends you'd need 4 casts for it to be on par with Cure II below 85 and 5 at 85+. With your fix, WHM is losing out even more, especially if it would need to rely on it. It would lose out on damage.
I think you underestimate that FFXIV always has been a highly dps and uptime focused game - yes, starting as early as ARR. It's not a new thing. There's no "pure healer" fantasy to go back to, we never had one to begin with.
If you want MP management, tacking 100 potencyon consecutive freaking Cure casts of all things isn't going to cut it. If that is WHM's form of MP management, I'd never touch it again. Ever. And I barely touch it as it is.

There are a myriad of ways to design classes that are balanced but varied and with synergies. You want some good ideas? Look at the WHM change video someone posted here. Now that's what I call class identity and interaction. And I'm sure if asked, he'd be able to come up with some really neat ideas for MP management aswell.
Cure I isn't a MP management tool, it's crap. And no amount of mental gymnastics will change it, least of all a measly additional 100 potency.

And if it adds another 100 potency to the next nuke cast, it's still a gigantic dps loss.
Bigger than Toxikon and that mechanic is the only thing about Sage that is constantly criticised.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Giving lots of oGCD healing abilities is just a cheap fix that realy doesnt create any dynamic interactions within the class itself.

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oGCD's are management in that they're limited by a cooldown. You can't blindly spam them or waste several of them on a small scratch or you'll run out when actual damage happens.

To be honest the cheap fix in this game is MP. You can use it to blindly spam the same 2-3 heals over and over. It rewards you the worse your cast uptime is or if you refuse to dps, because you'll lose less of it. If you still don't have enough, you can shove a ton of piety on your gear to further fuel bad habits. There's no "skill" in mana in this game.

Giving Cure a 100% proc does nothing. Nobody uses Cure II at endgame except in dire emergencies once or twice a month. It has nothing to do with WHM mana issues.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Are we talking about ARR content? Because it sure seems like you do.

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Actualy stormblood. And there i do notice that i mostly use lilies for healing and start using my GCD mostly for dealing damage. And i am aware this only gets worse later on.

And with cure i ment any direct healing ability (lilies included).

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

A Cure cast is still a full GCD lost to wet noodle healing with zero damage return

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With my 100 potency idea (which was just a random value, as i would definitely make that value a percentage instead). You can do 1 GCD heal, and then 1 stone/glare cast. And by alternating you essentialy would still lose no damage. Because of combo effects.
And this is exactly what i mean with going for alternative solutions. Giving combo based boosts can do quite a bit. It can even be taken in such way it would exceed the base damage. You can also add multiple stacks to the effect if damage needs to be stalled more.
Another way is that after each stone/glare cast, you unlock a diffirent ability to be used that has even higher damage, yet still is GCD (gunbreaker style).

This allows a lot of abilities to remain on the GCD, and still allow occasional heals to be placed inbetween. Especialy if those heals boost other abilities to double the damage values. We could also take it the other way, the more you cast stone/glare, the more healing the next GCD ability will do.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

There are a myriad of ways to design classes that are balanced but varied and with synergies.

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If you are forced to spam cure 2 to keep a target alive, you are very quickly going to run into mana issues. Cure 1 can catch that moment, and thats also its only moment (yes, i agree its crap. but its still a tool).
And maybe it could instead be a GCD reduction based on the ability that was used (for example a cure 2 cast causes the GCD to be reduced by 20% for 5 casts). It still keeps the GCD, but adds more room for additional casts

But the real issue simply lies at the way GCD scales with newer abilities (it simply doesnt). So no matter how many abilities you get, you will always be capped by the GCD. A normal way would be to grant damage increases by trait. But even this becomes limited (and actualy is quite dull). And because of all those extra abilities, you simply wont be using all of them (you just go for the strongest). But as the gunbreaker shows, it can be managed! It would make the WHM a lot more complex towards newer players, and require a big rework, but beyond level 60 that simply shouldnt matter anymore.

And i can understand why oGCD abilities take preference in that. It simply works. The issue with putting too much off the GCD is that it will too quickly become the default way to go around the issue. Because its too easy to apply. But i agree, changes are needed.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

You clearly show that you have no idea how class variety and balancing can work, because there are a LOT of ways to achieve similar results.

Resource management is a very common thing in many games, and depending on the class/job it can be a variety of resources. MP is just like HP, GCD time, stamina (not the HP type, but the type FPS games often have to prevent spamming) a resource that in some cases needs management. A good example is the medic in tf2 in healing time, sure, he can overheal the heavy constantly, but that outputs only 50% of the healing compared to just making sure the heavy doesnt hit 0, and keeps him slightly below 300hp. This is resource management dedicated towards just 1 class (to compare, the engineer and heavy are very ammo oriented, and the spy is cloak time oriented, there are plenty of resource management classes there). Thats why making WHM like the other healers not rely on GCD a bad fix. Resource management is a feature that can make a class interesting.

The real fix is making sure that WHM isnt losing out, and this can (for example) be done by making the GCD damage more potent. But obviously, this should be situational, so maybe instead of a static value, its boosted by healing others. Lets say each cure cast adds 100 potency, and suddenly it doesnt matter you only cast it a few times, because each cast is significantly stronger. This is a completely diffirent approach while preserving most of the MP management aspects. And even adds a new one that can be managed (as in this case it behaves more like the FPS type of stamina).

Giving lots of oGCD healing abilities is just a cheap fix that realy doesnt create any dynamic interactions within the class itself. And while you might not like MP management, some do. Its a bad thing to make all classes suit to most players, because then those players will always just go for the strongest... a meta. If the classes vary a lot, then this becomes almost impossible to do. And yes, some classes might be generaly too hard, but its usualy those classes that also end up being the strongest (because they are generaly made a bit OP to compensate for difficulty). Variety is important. Dont make every class the same.

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I actually have a ton of experience with varied classes, and have played RPGs for most of my life. The problem with making small tweaks to WHM is that the other healers are just...well, I'd hesitate to call them "better designed", because we're all riding the 11111111111 design train to hell, but I'll call them designed in a way that's more suited to how FFXIV's combat system works. FFXIV, for better or worse, is a massively damage-fixated game. There is no instance in this game (outside wacky phase pushing in unsynced content that makes boss mechanics do weird things) where higher damage output isn't a good thing. This is further compromised by how infrequent and unthreatening incoming damage is in nearly all content. WHM being "the MP management healer" all by itself doesn't work unless you want to curse it with being permanently the weakest, worst healer. The unfortunate thing is, the other three healers don't manage MP because they don't need to. Their kits shift most of their healing power into oGCDs- abilities which trade spammability for being instant and free. Since this game hardly rewards healing being spammable, this "trade off" is anything but. It adds a ton of strength while attaching a meaningless weakness. It means their healing abilities are designed in a way that works WITH how the combat system is designed. Furthermore, they have mechanics like cards, like Chain Strategem, like Kardia, that enable them to push even more damage, which again is the thing that FFXIV's combat system rewards.

WHM's kit does the opposite. It forces you into GCD healing earlier so you lose damage more quickly. It makes you lose even more damage from that GCD healing because you have no buffs or extra DoTs to mitigate dropping into GCD healing- you drop a Glare and that damage is just gone. It punishes you by draining your MP faster than all the other healers. It "rewards" you for using your job gauge with a damage loss. WHM is the weakest healer because its entire kit theme is based around picking the least bad option instead of providing you rewards for choosing good ones. WHM needs a lot of things, but adding yet another cumbersome system that punishes them for playing poorly ain't it.

I'm not against the concept of MP management as a whole, but A) you'd need to redesign a helluva lot to make it an actual thing in this game, because meaningful choice doesn't exist in the kits as currently designed and isn't achievable via a tweak or two, and B) if you're going to add a skill-based system that only punishes you for failure (rather than rewarding you for success), I'd hardly consider the healer already bursting with punishment mechanics to be the prime candidate for it.

" It will mean the opposite, because good healers heal less."

If you heal less it doesn't mean you're a good healer. It's mean your party experienced or you're lazy.

A copium delirium is yours. Because you still think whm has to dps not heal. This is the problem with using DPS as a metric for healers.

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Originally Posted by FujikoN

A copium delirium is yours. Because you still think whm has to dps not heal. This is the problem with using DPS as a metric for healers.

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And whats a better metric? HPS?
Unless you can heal a boss to death DPS will always be the go-to stat for all Jobs & Roles.

I don't mind WHM. It's my second go to healer after Sage. However, their level 90 skill is garbage. They need to change that ASAP to either proc every 2 seconds for the duration, or proc every time anyone in the party takes damage.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I don't mind WHM. It's my second go to healer after Sage. However, their level 90 skill is garbage. They need to change that ASAP to either proc every 2 seconds for the duration, or proc every time anyone in the party takes damage.

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Or make us proc it manually by pressing the button again.

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Originally Posted by FujikoN

" It will mean the opposite, because good healers heal less."

If you heal less it doesn't mean you're a good healer. It's mean your party experienced or you're lazy.

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Originally Posted by FujikoN

A copium delirium is yours. Because you still think whm has to dps not heal. This is the problem with using DPS as a metric for healers.

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Right.
Because observing and learning damage patterns, coming up with a good mapping that minimizes dps loss while healing on point and using the entire toolkit instead of reactively spamming noodle heals and idling is clearly laziness.

Keeping close to 100% GCD uptime for dps while taking care of all the necessary healing with no or minimal dps loss is the sign of a good healer. Not mindless GCD spam because "healers are supposed to heal <3~".
DPS isn't the perfect metric for healers, you always have to consider comp and other stats. If one healer carried the healing while being forced to constantly GCD heal, a good parse from the other doesn't mean anything.
If both healers were able to work in tandem and neither lost GCDs, it's completely fine for one healer (especially AST & SGE) to heal signifcantly more than their co heal because for them, it's all free.
HPS is a poor metric because you don't get brownie points for sniping your co heal or overhealing.

All healers have to dps because you will never need to spend 100% of your time actively healing, not even in the most difficult endgame content. You will inevitably have downtime. maximizing downtime by healing well and using your entire toolkit is the goal for anyone who wants to be a good healer. And this downtime should be spend on dpsing, not idling.

Let's create a weird game for a moment:

We'll have one team of 8 people and one lone player pitted against one another. The team of 8 each has a glass filled with water, while the lone player has a kiddie pool filled with water. Everyone has a straw. The team of 8's job is to use their straws to syphon water from the kiddie pool and spit it out while the lone player has to syphon water from each of the 8 glasses of water and spit it out. Anyone who's glass is completely emptied is "out." 2 players on the team of 8 are also allowed to grab a pitcher to fill their team's glass before it empties, but doing so means they obviously can't be syphoning water from the opponent's kiddie pool.

Stacy is one of the players in charge of keeping her team's glass filled with water. She decides to hold onto a pitcher and wait for whenever the lone player syphons water from her teammate's glass.

Margaret is the other player who's in charge of keeping her teams' glass filled. She is actively syphoning water from the lone player's kiddie pool, but runs to grab the pitcher for a quick refill anytime someone's glass gets low.

Who is contributing more to the team, Stacy or Margaret?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

boop

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This was fricken amazing, many thanks!

Also why does every healer thread devolve into "Healers only heal reeeeee"

For the poster I am quoting can improve slightly! Instead of one pitcher, Stacy and Margret are actually carrying seven fire hoses all attached to a reservoir that self fills every minute and the person with the kiddy pool has a hole in their straw.

Edit; Wait wait, wait! We can go even further beyond because now the tanks also carry a fire hose and some of the deeps also brought pitchers.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Who is contributing more to the team, Stacy or Margaret?

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Stacey's probably more like: "HAVE MORE WATER GUYS, YOU MIGHT GET LOW!"

https://www.rebootwithjoe.com/wp-con...Much-Water.jpg

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Who is contributing more to the team, Stacy or Margaret?

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https://i.imgflip.com/3obkla.png

this is Margaret but way cooler >.>

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Originally Posted by FujikoN

" It will mean the opposite, because good healers heal less."

If you heal less it doesn't mean you're a good healer. It's mean your party experienced or you're lazy.

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If you're keeping the party alive with fewer heals that's called being efficient. This is what happens when you improve as a healer.

This is because a good healer knows how to manage their oGCD heals and how to use them efficiently. An inexperienced healer will not, so they will tend to depend more on their GCD healers, which are less efficient but they are safe in that they have a near unlimited resource but oGCD's don't.

If you use your oGCD's well, then yes, you will use fewer heals in a fight or dungeon.

Some healing spells benefit in efficiency if you less people's health drop as well. AST is a good example for that:

Essential dignity is a 900 potency spell if you let health drop to 30%. It's minimum potency is 400. So if you know that damage is incoming anyway but not fatal, it'd be more efficient if you let it happen first and then use it. So you've used 1 charge of Essential Dignity instead of 2 or avoided an unnecessary GCD because you weaved an oGCD. Ergo, you're healing less because you're more efficient.

The same applies to Earthly Star, it's 540 potency versus 400 from Helios

And Celestial Opposition offers chunky enough of an AoE HoT for you to set & forget because by the time there's more incoming damage, people's health is back up. You weave that as an oGCD too.

And I would trust the former more than the latter, because I know the former will be able to help carry the party in the event s*** hits the fan. The former might make people a little nervous when everything is going great, but that's because in a PUG it's harder to differentiate from a healer who isn't healing enough and a healer who heals efficiently...but it soon becomes obvious because one will be capable of keeping the party alive and the other will not be.

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Originally Posted by FujikoN

A copium delirium is yours. Because you still think whm has to dps not heal. This is the problem with using DPS as a metric for healers.

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It's down to how the game is designed. When you boil it all down, the 'true' metric for performance is your party's overall DPS. Even healing contributes to this, because a dead DPS is a DPS loss, so a healer that doesn't keep people alive, then the party suffers. But if the healer is in a position to DPS, then the one who does is outperforming that one who doesn't. But don't worry, I'm not going to judge the one who doesn't for the vast majority of content, because a dungeon being 4 minutes slower is not really a problem but 1% wipes are. And it'd be question of are they avoiding it because they'd struggle or because they can't be bothered.

The reason for this is that the objective of any fight is to get the enemy's HP to 0. So performance is based on how quickly the party can contribute to getting it to 0. Then there are added incentives/requirements for people to meet that performance, because of DPS checks and enrage timers. But you can also avoid mechanics repeating or avoid mechanics altogether if your party hits a certain DPS. And for things like roulettes, people prefer to get them done quickly, because they're a daily task.

When it comes to HPS, this is capped based on how much incoming damage there is. In this game, the majority of the time that cap is fairly low. And when you hit that cap, there isn't anything else to do healing-wise. There are some healer checks where you are challenged that's when people might start to worry about HPS, but there aren't many out there and that's a measure of performance for that specific mechanic and not the overall fight.

It's not just the case with FFXIV, because it's pretty much true for any RPG, especially any Final Fantasy because healer characters/jobs still have responsibilities outside of healing. When a person is healed enough, they're not contributing, so you want that character to do something else. It's the same in DnD, it's the same in WoW, in SWTOR, in GW2 (they don't have healer classes, but they have specs), in Final Fantasy VII: Remake (Aerith heals and does damage), in FFXI, in anything I can think of that has anything dedicated to healing.

WHM aren't suffering. WHM are -causing- suffering. I just ran a dungeon with one that blew afflatus stacks for their dumb lily. If I wasn't warrior, there surely would've been some problems on pulls. Stuff went down a little faster, but I was also doing the same. This needs to stop.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

WHM aren't suffering. WHM are -causing- suffering. I just ran a dungeon with one that blew afflatus stacks for their dumb lily. If I wasn't warrior, there surely would've been some problems on pulls. Stuff went down a little faster, but I was also doing the same. This needs to stop.

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Maybe they did that BECAUSE you were a WAR? I mean, you said it yourself, if you weren't a WAR, there might have been some problems but since you were and there was no problems, I fail to see why you're complaining.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

WHM aren't suffering. WHM are -causing- suffering. I just ran a dungeon with one that blew afflatus stacks for their dumb lily. If I wasn't warrior, there surely would've been some problems on pulls. Stuff went down a little faster, but I was also doing the same. This needs to stop.

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Are you for real? That was sarcasm, right. Right ...?

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Maybe they did that BECAUSE you were a WAR? I mean, you said it yourself, if you weren't a WAR, there might have been some problems but since you were and there was no problems, I fail to see why you're complaining.

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Nah. They did what they did because DH melds are apparently the way to go and Holy is the be all end all of spells. There were problems. It was stressful. I'm just good enough / geared enough to weather the storm. I feel for anyone else that has to put up with that.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Are you for real? That was sarcasm, right. Right ...?

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I am very much for real. Are you suggesting this person was melded right and playing the class right for dungeons? I can see pushing the dps in a raid situation, but this is vastly different.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I am very much for real. Are you suggesting this person was melded right and playing the class right for dungeons? I can see pushing the dps in a raid situation, but this is vastly different.

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Are you suggesting materia is needed to clear dungeons at all? It's not. You feeling stressed out is not a valid argument. By your logic, healers should be complaining that Tanks aren't melding Tenacity on their gear because it makes them more tanky. Something else you're failing to consider is, what if their gear was already capped on Crit/Det? Piety is useless and SpS is only advised up to specific threshold so what other option is there?

Bad players exist. Arbitrarily blaming their melds does not change that. Get over it

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Nah. They did what they did because DH melds are apparently the way to go and Holy is the be all end all of spells. There were problems. It was stressful. I'm just good enough / geared enough to weather the storm. I feel for anyone else that has to put up with that.

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Get over yourself already. People dont even bring a healer to their dungeon runs when playing with a Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Boogeyman

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Boogeyman 2.0.

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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha no

The one that has to stop are those non-WAR tanks and bad healers: stop crying for being bad and even better, start actually improving. :rolleyes:

EDIT: For real though, you got some sort of vendetta against DH melders or something?

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha no

The one that has to stop are those non-WAR tanks and bad healers: stop crying for being bad and even better, start actually improving. :rolleyes:

EDIT: For real though, you got some sort of vendetta against DH melders or something?

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I mean WAR has no use for DH, therefore, DH is bad.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I am very much for real. Are you suggesting this person was melded right and playing the class right for dungeons?

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Yes, because you said yourself there weren't problems and it went a bit faster. It's really not complicated to understand. Tank didn't die. Mobs died faster. Good run.

In the JP forum, someone is arguing that WHM is the stronger single target healer compared to AST so it doesn't need buffs, and their comments received plenty of upvotes. It's also not an isolated incident. Every time the topic of buffing WHM comes up, a bunch of AST/SCH players would chime in and say a bunch of crap like "benediction is OP, so WHM doesn't need buffs" or "WHM was OP before, so it deserves to be weak now". Madness.

Considering how SE seems to value feedback from Japanese players more, I'm not very optimistic about future patches.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ironthorne

W H A T

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I know you're not the one saying it but, suuuure it is...

On what copium are these guys?

Tetra: 700 Potency
Essential Dignity: 2 stacks, Starts on 400 potency but: Potency increases up to 900 as the target's HP decreases, reaching its maximum value when the target has 30% HP or less.
Afflatus Solace: 800 Potency i guess?

Regen: 250 potency for 18 seconds
ABenefic: Initial 250 potency, 250 potency for 15 seconds

Are also used for single target heal:
Assize: 400 potency
Earthly 750 potency

Benison: 2 charges, 500 potency SHIELD
Exaltation: 10% defense buff, 500 potency

Aquaveil: 15% defense buff
Celestial Intersection: : 2 charges 200 Potency, Additional Sect Effect: Erects a magicked barrier which nullifies damage equaling 200% of the amount of HP restored

Freebie: Lady: 400 potency

Like... every heal whm has is weaker than the ones Ast has because ast has multiple effects.

Are... are they... never letting anybody fall below 30% for essential?

Whm struggles way more in all sorts of healing, since ast also has these handy things like
Horoscope, Neutral sect, the bubble...
All on way shorter cooldowns than whatever whm has, which only have 1, max 2 (WHOO MORE HEALING) effects....

I--- i fear for healers even more if jp really things like that

Whm is absolutely struggling but i guess it's really just: Big numbers= better, even tho whm can use the big numbers more rarely than "slightly smaller number but not really" than the other healers...
And thats just comparing the "pure healers", sch also has plenty tools, too...

As... as we know

The currently most active WHM thread's full of posts claiming WHM isn't the problem and it's just P3S that needs to be adjusted, as if that was what folks had issues with, though even in there a ton of folks seem to agree Liturgy is bad.

The big WHM suggestion thread on the other hand talks about stuff that sounds a lot like the things discussed here, like the DPS loss from lilies, Assize being used largely for dps and not healing, the Thin Air nerf, increasing the range on Asylum, the bad MP economy, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

On what copium are these guys?

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The brand that starts with Dunning then ends with Kruger.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

Are... are they... never letting anybody fall below 30% for essential?

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The type of healer that believes White Mage is in good place is also type of healer that will not optimize. Unsure why Square listens to this group but they do for sake of accessibility. Because they are not testing healers they neglect to realize that White Mage can actually be most difficult healer to play within more difficult content. When the party makes mistakes, you feel it more than any other healer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

And thats just comparing the "pure healers", sch also has plenty tools, too...

As... as we know

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Barrier healers fricken style all over "pure healers" at nearly every level during leveling process. They have more ogcd pure healing tools then the pure healers and can outright ignore certain tpk situations by deploying shields. Heck even Astro has this capability but not White Mage.

Nothing shall change for White Mage until Square ditches idea that gcd healing at higher levels is viable or fun and stops listening to troglodytes. Maybe perhaps just maybe plays the fricken healers themselves? Would love to see Yoshi struggle buss through any extreme or Savage fight on White Mage. It would be glorious! Live stream it, I would pay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Yes.

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Every healer is a barrier healer except whm.

Having benison is nice, i will never say it isn't.
I also like aquaveil a lot because it's SOMETHING else than healing.

It's crazy to see that people REALLY say Expedient isn't good on sch because sch has enough damage reduction already.
It can never be more, sch has a nice concept of it not being the best "panic healer" same with sage, in some ways. They are the ones preventing the damage.

I like reactive healing more and in shb, whm felt nicer to do because lillies were your only weaving tool. Other than Dia. So you got something out of it with using your lillies well because misery was like... at least more dps-neutral if used good.

I legit have less fun with whm now that the cast time is 1,5 seconds and i wish it wasnt. Would that make whm more clunky? Yes, but whm doesnt have much "must haves" to weave anyways, i'd rather clip than having a weave tool i can barely use.
Just a me thing tho, i know clipping is what people hate.

It's just sad to see that whm does nothing better than other healers, but it has a big number attached to some heals, so they are on an ultra cooldown. While other healers can do the same too.

You dont need big numbers if you can mitigate 10+% damage.