Power Fantasy [[Spoilers]]

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

I very much want to go back to being "just an adventurer" rather than the Savior of All Life Everywhere (SALE). Yeah, we'll always be the SALE by virtue of past actions, but that doesn't mean we can't put that aside and take up a life of adventure for the sake of adventure.

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They're not mutually exclusive. You don't have to put aside any status to go on an adventure. What matters is the plot. The game even allows you to take on a raid quest and a mundane beast tribe daily quest at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Oh, it was a disservice. Even the man himself ask "why would I be stupid enough to jeopardize my mission by inviting my enemy to my hideout". If emet truly not sentimental, he would have kill the WoL at Mt gulg, or at least never tell us about Amaurot. He kept giving us chances in the name of "trial" and "test". He can easily kill the scions before ardbert joined us yet he didn't.

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That's irrelevant. Was Emet doing his best in the fight? I think he was, and that's what matters.

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And don't get me started at Azem crystal and elidibus. You might say "but emet help us during elidibus fight because it's mercy killing", you'll be right, but honestly it's dumb as fck. In order to make that narrative works, they made elidibus a half-ass person. This guy has led countless genocide over 12k years, they only need to rejoin one more world, and yet he refuse to remember because "remember things hurts me :(("

So yeah, we only win because emet is too sentimental and elidibus being half-ass. Oh, and plus plot armor.

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Again, we're talking about our character's fighting power. It doesn't matter what could've happened in the story. Our character could be beaten by being poisoned in our sleep, but that's irrelevant to the thread.

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

Is it me or did Endwalker lapse into power fantasy a bit too hard. I mean, I know this game tries to make out that you are the best thing in the whole word but the whole Azem thing is a little ridiculous and completely invalidates the point of making your own character.
Also, now the Hydalean is dead, we should have lost our power as we were "chosen" by her... so can we go back to being just a normal person now because the demi-god stuff is getting old.
This story just completely jumped the shark at the end and invalidated any emotional payoff at all. Do people not enjoy humility and just being a small part of a way larger world?

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Bail out by Blessing of Light is getting old to be honest.
It is good time to put an end on that as Hyadaelean arc has concluded.
Beside, we did gained a new power, the power of Azem Summon
Also, I believed Yoship said Emet's involvement is not over yet.
The interaction of Azem and Emet would generates a lot of chemistry effect

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Change of lead writing.
Ishikawa is very good at writing sympathetic antagonists and melodrama. But once she took over the power of friendship to do anything vibe definitely took over full force in Shadowbringers onwards.

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In my opinion I think she should stick with smaller parts. I enjoyed azim steppe and the drk questline, but not sure her style was the best for wrapping up approximately 10 years of lore. I'm definitely a fan of the low fantasy depiction in HW. Too bad they got rid of role quests because I'd love to continue the drk quest and maybe Ishikawa could work on other role quests. But looks like the devs have decided to get rid of the individual role quests for good.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

People really out here like they A) aren't following the story or B) not experienced with JRPGs.

It's hard to believe people come up with so uninformed opinions so...consistently.



Literally, you don't have the blessing of light anymore now that Hydaelyn is gone. Meaning while you may be at the very least be above average, you aren't necessarily a God.

If you ask me, the creation of those warding amulets is a narrating ploy to potentially cover the fact that the WoL is not auto protected from primal summonings anymore. You can put regular big bads again and narratively, it still makes sense. You can narratively power scale a character back which they have already done. They even reduced you contextually to the "traveler" or "adventurer". You aren't really considered the WoL either.

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1. HW dealt with not having Hydaelyn's protection in the blessing of light. We've always been a well above average human and after SHB we are the most rejoined human among the population pushing us that much higher.
2. We are still protected from tempering as it is the echo that protects us not the blessing of light. The amulets simply allows trusts to be able to encounter primals in dungeons such as the magus sisters and anima.
3. There has been no scaling back of power so far. The new raids literally still battling ancients and creatures that can bind and corrupt the ancients.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Yes, but that usually marks the end of the story. Problem is, this is an MMO with no endpoint.

We've killed all the Primals, the beast men version of gods

We've killed Z & H, the Ascians version of gods

And it's pretty much a given that the EW Alliance Raids will have us thrash The Twelve™, man's version of gods.

Where do you go?

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Zodiarc was in tatters and Hyadelin was spent when we fought them, we never even got to kill what is arguably the strongest primal followed by those two namely Alexander.

Also recently did E2 again... Apparently during that fight there is a quite massive hand off something from the thirteenth trying to grab us or the boss.

The world is still ripe with foes that are dangerous to us.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

"The arcane is mine to command!"

Pulls out the 357 magnum

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I see you .... opening!!!

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Also recently did E2 again... Apparently during that fight there is a quite massive hand off something from the thirteenth trying to grab us or the boss.

The world is still ripe with foes that are dangerous to us.

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That seems like a bit of a retcon with the eden story tbh. They had gaia controlling all those voidsent and this is literally never seen again with her fight or the story. Also the names of the creature with the hand and the heads she summoned are related to gaia in greek mythos i believe. They could still make an appearance i suppose but idk anymore after all of the retcons theyve done.

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

This story just completely jumped the shark at the end and invalidated any emotional payoff at all. Do people not enjoy humility and just being a small part of a way larger world?

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If I'm going to play a fantasy game then I want to be able to do great and fantastical things and be important to the story. I'm just a small insignificant part of the world in real life so why on earth should I want to be a nobody in a game when it's something I can do any day of my life?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That seems like a bit of a retcon with the eden story tbh. They had gaia controlling all those voidsent and this is literally never seen again with her fight or the story. Also the names of the creature with the hand and the heads she summoned are related to gaia in greek mythos i believe. They could still make an appearance i suppose but idk anymore after all of the retcons theyve done.

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Because something doesn't appear again, yet doesn't make it a retcon. What we can assume is that her Ascian powers were going out of hand until we knocked her out. One thing is certain though and that is that the thirteen is still a credible threat to the others shards.

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Originally Posted by linayar

They're not mutually exclusive. You don't have to put aside any status to go on an adventure. What matters is the plot. The game even allows you to take on a raid quest and a mundane beast tribe daily quest at the same time.

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That's true. What I was thinking is more of a Superman / Clark Kent type deal. Superman is always Superman even when he's going around as Clark Kent, but Clark Kent doesn't get the sort of attention Superman does. If we, as the SALE, travel around in our SALE outfit, people will treat us as such and we'll likely continue to get pulled into grand scale things. I'd like to "become Clark Kent", go to a place where people don't know who I am, and adventure as Clark Kent, helping the lady across the street and not fighting Lex Luthor for the fate of the world.

The SALE will always been the SALE, but I'd love for the sCale of our adventures to be reduced.

We've always been unrealistically powerful. Remember when we defeated Ifrit? Yeah he's like level 20 or whatever but in canon this is a divine being, a god that creatures put their faith into. Ifrit is nothing to sneeze at so I'm not sure why you think this was suddenly a thing in endwalker tbh :P

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Because something doesn't appear again, yet doesn't make it a retcon. What we can assume is that her Ascian powers were going out of hand until we knocked her out. One thing is certain though and that is that the thirteen is still a credible threat to the others shards.

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If it was her ascian powers going out of hand, then it shouldve been shown in e12 or e12s. We literally see 0 voidsent connection with her after that fight, even in her savage fight where she draws upon her true power. Tying that together with how both the things she summoned were supposed to be connected to the greek mythos gaia, its either a retcon, or its just there to be there for that fight. Thats like saying the yshtola life drain isnt a retcon when it very clearly is. It literally hasnt been mentioned after heavensward lol. With this logic retcons wouldnt exist because they could always eventually happen.

Endwalker is like disc 4 of a classic JRPG. The phase were we kill god or something like that.

I'm assuming next expansion will be a soft reset on power levels.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

People really out here like they A) aren't following the story or B) not experienced with JRPGs.

It's hard to believe people come up with so uninformed opinions so...consistently.



Literally, you don't have the blessing of light anymore now that Hydaelyn is gone. Meaning while you may be at the very least be above average, you aren't necessarily a God.

If you ask me, the creation of those warding amulets is a narrating ploy to potentially cover the fact that the WoL is not auto protected from primal summonings anymore. You can put regular big bads again and narratively, it still makes sense. You can narratively power scale a character back which they have already done. They even reduced you contextually to the "traveler" or "adventurer". You aren't really considered the WoL either.

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Ignoring the part of you sounding like a condescending ****.

No one cares how JRPGs work. If you nerf everyone's character in an MMO, many will quit. No one cares what JRPG fanboys think.

I disagree pretty hard. Since Shadowbringers the game has been toning back the power fantasy, imo, because the NPCs have been getting more and more competent - and not just as random deus-ex-machina style plot devices. But no longer does the Warrior of Light have to do literally everything for literally everyone. You can go off and do what matters while other characters can actually do things. The Warrior of Light is still, clearly, heads and shoulders above anyone else; but even mere expansions ago it was pretty much unthinkable for anyone else to ever venture into places like Dalamud's ruins, but hey look: now squads of NPCs managed to clear some bits of coil like we did years ago to help us. The scions are able to go off and deal with diplomatic tasks while we punch the villains; we don't have to punch the villains and then go talk to every world leader because the scions somehow managed to deadlock the conversation.

Back in ARR and even through to Stormblood it felt like the WoL was straight up the only character in the universe who could do anything, and almost any time other characters set out to something they'd somehow tie their own shoes together and trip up until you, personally, went there to untie those laces and give their ass a gentle pat. I don't think there's any question that the Warrior of Light is basically a god at this point - but the game has taken some efforts to show that we aren't good at everything anymore, we aren't an omniscient god. Just a powerful one.

I kinda-sorta agree, but I also think they wrote in plenty of ways to "scale things back down" without any sort of whiplash. And I completely agree, they SHOULD scale things back down!

I honestly like the "Azem" thing, I thought it was a super interesting twist. Having said that, I remember a theory that the Reaper's "wraith" or whatever it's called, might ACTUALLY be your reflection from the 13th reflection, which was consumed by void. I still think that's a super interesting theory. However, not ALL of Azem's "reflections" necessarily need to be "heroic". We don't really know much about Zenos; what if it turned out, Emet-Selch snatched him from another reflection, that he wasn't REALLY the Emperor's son, and was actually another reflection of Azem? (I'm personally hoping that if Zenos ever returns, he might be able to shift into more of an anti-hero role)

But yeah, I hope moving forward, the story becomes more about the WORLD and NATIONS of FFXIV, exploration and learning about cultures, moreso than "character drama". It's one of the reasons I think Stormblood was actually successful, even if the STORY was less involved than Heavensward's was, because it did a great job of world-building. And that's what I really want now; more world-building. I'm enjoying Endwalker and all, but after going SO far into cosmic territory, I'd love to scale things back for a while.

After the Final Days thingie, I would love to visit new unexplored places like New World, to see if these regions were lucky enough to be spared from the horror before the cosmic threat was put down. Who knows, maybe the New World where comes the Blue Mage tribe is no longer a ceruleum-rich lush land with Native American cultural inspiration, but a hellhole where denizens are struggling with the scar left by the Final Days, and you're there, helping them to restore and rebuild.

I wouldn't say it has jumped the shark.. yet. I do, however, feel it's setting up the ramps and fueling up the boat with the shark on the horizon.

I actually really enjoyed the overall ending of EW and feel it's left us in a pretty much perfect place to take a step back and get back to smaller scale stories and adventures. The setup is actually even there to reduce our relative power level. Of course we'll always be stronger than the mushrooms in the Shroud but narrative wise they could certainly use the removal of Hydaelyn as a convenient narrative way to step us back a little. Will they? I hope so and that does seem to at least be temporarily taking us less large scale adventures, but there's really no guarantee.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

I actually really enjoyed the overall ending of EW and feel it's left us in a pretty much perfect place to take a step back and get back to smaller scale stories and adventures.

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I actually didn't really like the ending considering the whole story felt like it tried to tell a story about letting go and enjoy the time you have only for the final act to go "lol, j/k. It's shonen time! Unpack that power of friendship, it's time to defy fate!... Again!" I have a fun game where I take a drink every time the game pulls an anime trope and I had to rewatch the ending since I was too smashed to remember it. :/

That said, I hope they take a page from FFXI and the next few expansions are just stories told in new areas and self contained. If they can pull a Treasures of Aht Urhgan then I will be be pleasantly suprised.

I like the power fantasy. Just wish they would let me off the leash and use it for my own goals.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

I like the power fantasy. Just wish they would let me off the leash and use it for my own goals.

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When can we eat the WoL's of the 13th?

I want to become whole!

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

That's true. What I was thinking is more of a Superman / Clark Kent type deal. Superman is always Superman even when he's going around as Clark Kent, but Clark Kent doesn't get the sort of attention Superman does. If we, as the SALE, travel around in our SALE outfit, people will treat us as such and we'll likely continue to get pulled into grand scale things. I'd like to "become Clark Kent", go to a place where people don't know who I am, and adventure as Clark Kent, helping the lady across the street and not fighting Lex Luthor for the fate of the world.

The SALE will always been the SALE, but I'd love for the sCale of our adventures to be reduced.

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We do that every expansion whenever we go to a new location. Only the people who've seen us know what we look like.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm inclined to agree. A large part of the appeal of FFXIV to me was that it didn't jump the shark in the same way as WoW did when it came to seeking the 'next big thrill'. I wouldn't say that the storytelling in this game was always perfect or free from bizarre twists though I appreciated the relative slow burn and sense of build up.

I'm not sure how the game is going to scale back things in a way that leads to humble adventuring again. I absolutely want that to happen but the constant hero worship wears thin for me and our character is now, unfortunately, the saviour of the entire universe.

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If Ishikawa is still the lead writer then, I don't expect them to put the "adventurer" feel right at all.
I rolled my eyes when they tried to attribute interest in entertaining Zenos' desire to "you're an adventurer therefore you're Goku from DBZ/Ryu from Street Fighter and deep down love fighting". Like, excuse me? When did this turn into Shounen Jump manga writing?

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

If Ishikawa is still the lead writer then, I don't expect them to put the "adventurer" feel right at all.
I rolled my eyes when they tried to attribute interest in entertaining Zenos' desire to "you're an adventurer therefore you're Goku from DBZ/Ryu from Street Fighter and deep down love fighting". Like, excuse me? When did this turn into Shounen Jump manga writing?

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Unfortunately Zenos appears to never have been anything more than a convenient excuse to dismantle Garlemald from within.

I remember seeing a lot of people on Reddit and Twitter claim that Zenos was a 'dark mirror' and that he loved to fight just like our character so I guess elements of the story are being tweaked to pander to social media users now.

Zenos having killed one of the Scions after he hijacked the Warrior of Light's body would have made for a genuinely unsettling and shocking story, though as with many things it was built up and then discarded.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Zenos having killed one of the Scions after he hijacked the Warrior of Light's body would have made for a genuinely unsettling and shocking story, though as with many things it was built up and then discarded.

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That's what should've rightfully happen. I love that we struggled to make it on time but that whole thing afterwards felt like Ishikawa wrote herself in a corner and Fandaniel was the get out of jail free card. I'm not one to say that somebody needs to die to make a story good but there was really nothing in that situation that prevented Zenos killing somebody, especially since he kept repeating how he had make the WoL seethe with hatred.

Truly unfortunate that we didn't get moral quandary arc of any duration. Would've made things very interesting.