The problem with Monk isn't positionals (opinion piece)

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I think MNK has a flow problem. Playing DRG or RPR or even my DNC everything tends to just flow together really nicely. MNK has so many buffs along with constantly gaining chakra on top of trying to figure out when the best time to Perfect Balance that the job doesn't flow very well.

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Hate to say it, but... practice?

DRG's GCDs "flow" as you describe because it's nigh impossible to mess up so long as you follow your 10-step combo ad nauseum. For RPR, the same, but 3-step with CD-GCDs.

The last thing MNK needs is to lose choice of Nadi banking or for Blitz to be an effortless mechanic. '3-of-same-from', '3-of-different-forms' is not hard.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I think MNK has a flow problem. Playing DRG or RPR or even my DNC everything tends to just flow together really nicely. MNK has so many buffs along with constantly gaining chakra on top of trying to figure out when the best time to Perfect Balance that the job doesn't flow very well.

I think they should either not tie Beast Chakra to Perfect Balance, or have it so that if you have no Nadi you get Elixer Field which gives Lunar, if you have Lunar you get Flint strike which then gives Solar, and then if you have both you get Tornado Kick. Raising Pheonix and Phantom rush respectively. Turn Celestial Revolution into an Upgrade to another move or something.

But that's just me I think.

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I agree to a degree. The need to time blitzes around twin snakes is something that other jobs don't really have to worry about with their extra skills. Dragoon doesn't have to worry about losing their buff upon using Nastrond, Ninjas have a massively long window on Huton and don't need to worry about losing it while performing ninjutsu, and reaper has the duration on its enshroud mode long enough that you can reapply death's design in that mode without losing any DPS.

A few seconds extension to the duration of twin snakes would make a world of difference to being able to enter perfect balance when it comes up, especially since you don't really want to use your three of the same form blitz on twin snakes and two true strikes. This is even further exacerbated when your twin snakes buff isn't tracked on the job gauge and is equally jarring that they changed its icon this expansion. I can't tell how many times I've attempted to reapply twin snakes thinking I didn't have the buff simply because the icon changed, and I was trying to quickly identify a pink buff instead of a yellow one.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I agree to a degree. The need to time blitzes around twin snakes is something that other jobs don't really have to worry about with their extra skills. Dragoon doesn't have to worry about losing their buff upon using Nastrond, Ninjas have a massively long window on Huton and don't need to worry about losing it while performing ninjutsu, and reaper has the duration on its enshroud mode long enough that you can reapply death's design in that mode without losing any DPS.

A few seconds extension to the duration of twin snakes would make a world of difference to being able to enter perfect balance when it comes up, especially since you don't really want to use your three of the same form blitz on twin snakes and two true strikes. This is even further exacerbated when your twin snakes buff isn't tracked on the job gauge and is equally jarring that they changed its icon this expansion. I can't tell how many times I've attempted to reapply twin snakes thinking I didn't have the buff simply because the icon changed, and I was trying to quickly identify a pink buff instead of a yellow one.

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I can´t follow you here. When are you going to use Blitz without TS? Or when do you actually have to use stuff like "TS, TS, TS"?

The standard rotation fits very well into anything. You just don´t use the 3rd PB directly into the 2nd standalone RoF. You delay it until TS and Demo got resetted, then you´re going to start with DK/BS/DK into TK under the last moment of RoF. If you continue you´ll be at a perfect moment for your full burst with TS and Demo again.

Of course some boss-mechanics or downtimes could cause issues with it, but it´s something ppl always had to get used to and we just need to adapt and / or delay our burstphase.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

I can´t follow you here. When are you going to use Blitz without TS? Or when do you actually have to use stuff like "TS, TS, TS"?

The standard rotation fits very well into anything. You just don´t use the 3rd PB directly into the 2nd standalone RoF. You delay it until TS and Demo got resetted, then you´re going to start with DK/BS/DK into TK under the last moment of RoF. If you continue you´ll be at a perfect moment for your full burst with TS and Demo again.

Of course some boss-mechanics or downtimes could cause issues with it, but it´s something ppl always had to get used to and we just need to adapt and / or delay our burstphase.

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My point is that with the buff's duration being short, and needing to watch a buff that's not on the job gauge to determine when it a smart time to use the skill feels, at least to me, like poor design, and it's very simple to fix. Moving the timer onto the job gauge so it's easier to watch can help immensely to knowing if it's not a good idea to enter that mode yet. And even with the addition of the new mechanic, they shortened the duration of the buff, so extending that back out to where it was can help if people make a mistake and start into the phase too early.

The other part was noticing that even the buff icon changed, and isn't even the same color as it once was, so if you're trying to quickly identify if you have your damage buff applied, what your'e looking for is very different than it was. Yes, this is just something you have to get used to, but I'm saying its made for a lot of mistakes for seemingly no reason when we went from that basic pink buff in our row of applied buffs representing the buff from twin snakes to a yellow one.

Additionally since you bring up the rotation, I'll say what I've said elsewhere that it feels like we as a community are being forced to do awkward things with the blitz mechanic just to make it work with raid buffs, even though the developers said explicitly they didn't want it to. Not saying it's bad to optimize like this, but it makes the flow of the job just feel awkward to me now, and a little like an older version of ninja. Very busy and lots to do during the 120 marks when Brotherhood is up, and relatively little to do inbetween. Ninja mains complained about the job being boring because of this, and now monk is basically that version of ninja, but with twice the time duration between those windows.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

My point is that with the buff's duration being short, and needing to watch a buff that's not on the job gauge to determine when it a smart time to use the skill feels, at least to me, like poor design.

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I like that there's a further context around which we have to optimize Blitz, but I'll admit I'd like it if the buff either had a fixed priority and therefore position on our status bar or a separate gauge element.

Side-note:

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Very busy and lots to do during the 120 marks when Brotherhood is up, and relatively little to do inbetween. Ninja mains complained about the job being boring because of this, and now monk is basically that version of ninja, but with twice the time duration between those windows.

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Ninja still only gets out its full burst every 120s, same as Monk. And it does only 2 Ninjutsu between its 60s bursts, one of which is just prep for the 60s. I can't honestly say Monk's 40s CD, Chakra APM, and its 90s CD are somehow giving it even less to do during downtime than NIN's (single non-burst-window related use of its) 20s and one further 60s CD.

(DRG, meanwhile, has three extra rotational oGCDs per minute, Geirskogul, (High) Jump, and Mirage Dive, but the last is just a part-two and all, together, don't give as much apm as even just TFC. That's not to say any sort of apm contributes equally to the feeling of business --having separate, to-be-tracked buttons to hit for that apm increases cognitive load, as does have a rotation that isn't merely some barely-differed variant of 1-2-3--but it's not as if Monk's action drops to nothing outside of the 120s bursts.)

tl;dr: Monk is overly dull in its downtime, yes, but not let's pretend its uniquely so or even the worst so among melee.

Ninja does a trick attack every 60 seconds, not every 120 is my point of comparison there, and saving blitzes for riddle of fire, while correct, feels just like a copy paste of saving ninjutsu for trick attack with neither job having very much to do inbetween those times. And even though for monks this isn't very much changed from before, the removal of off global cooldowns, and the removal to need to move as much to hit positional requirements has led me to feeling as though the job is a lot more boring to play now than it used to be, and a lot more chaotic in its burst windows. Which, again, feels too much like ninja, but at least ninja's additional attacks in ninjutsu don't feel so clunky to use as blitzes do, AND their Huton buff lasts WAY longer than our twin snakes buff, which is less for them to have to track when they are doing a burst.

It's hard to put my finger on exactly what needs to change, but it just seems to me if someone wanted to play ninja, they'd just already be playing ninja. Monk didn't need to be turned into ninja v2.0. There's very little at this point that feels different between the two jobs when it comes to playing them, and that is disappointing to me.

Why new MNK design is a slap to the face:
-Perfect Balance Button doesn't change to Beast Chakra finishers when they are up, necessitating two buttons.
-Too many yellowish buff icons on your buff bars; poor visual distinction.

/s

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Ninja does a trick attack every 60 seconds, not every 120 is my point of comparison there

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Monk likewise has its 60s bursts, though into which at least one Blitz must be fit. Remember, Meisui, Mug, and Ten Chi Jin are all likewise 120s CDs. Every other NIN burst phase will feel neutered.

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It's hard to put my finger on exactly what needs to change, but it just seems to me if someone wanted to play ninja, they'd just already be playing ninja. Monk didn't need to be turned into ninja v2.0. There's very little at this point that feels different between the two jobs when it comes to playing them, and that is disappointing to me.

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Arguably the same was true of even more true of ShB Monk, though. It slid in mindless free apm via Elixir Field and Shoulder Tackle (and later Tornado Kick) that just happened every third time to align with RoF, with no conscious effort required. Perfect Balance, likewise, was a 90s CD. Heck, the last time Monk really had busy mini-burst phases to look forward to and play around was 4.3.

That being said, all but Reaper still play fairly distinctly. It's not as if MNK was pushed into being able to hit any immediately available GCD outside of its 1-2-3 only at most twice per minute, as per NIN and RPR. It hasn't been stuffed into rigid 5/10 step rotations. It doesn't build a gauge to build a gauge to build a gauge. So I don't really get why you'd say MNK feels like playing NIN, let alone only as of now. (Arguably, HW MNK and HW NIN or 5.0 NIN and 4.3 MNK, or perhaps even HW DRG and 4.3 MNK, played a bit alike in what they were required to manage, but now?)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So I don't really get why you'd say MNK feels like playing NIN, let alone only as of now. (Arguably, HW MNK and HW NIN or 5.0 NIN and 4.3 MNK, or perhaps even HW DRG and 4.3 MNK, played a bit alike in what they were required to manage, but now?)

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For a long, long time, ninja was just stand behind the boss doing the spinning edge, gust slash, aeolian edge combo without moving or doing anything else. Maybe every 40ish seconds you move to the flank to do an armor crush and then nothing else again until you do a trick attack burst. It was incredibly boring to play. Monk, now with the removal to constantly be moving is basically the same. Sit on the flank, and every 18 seconds you move to the rear for one GCD to do demolish then just sit on the flank again, doing nothing until riddle of fire comes up. The movement for positional requirements on monk wasn't engaging according to some, but it kept you at least somewhat engaged in needing to move every 4-6 seconds.

The problem is more of the same as why I stopped playing it in the later part of Shadowbringers when greased lightning got removed and the job got reworked. Job feels hollow and boring now, and its current state simply isn't fun to play. Not sure why you're suddenly defending it..... unless you're just trying to be a contrarian? You've made the same basic assessment as I have in other threads.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

The problem is more of the same as why I stopped playing it in the later part of Shadowbringers

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Ahh, my mistake then. I thought you were treating this as a problem new to Endwalker (or, since it's previous gutting).

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unless you're just trying to be a contrarian?

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I'm just finding the whole "Monk rotates like a tank now" / "can be played with one brain cell" stuff that's been popping up all over threads these last few days unhelpfully hyperbolic.

Sorry for reading that vibe into your words when you instead had a far more specific meaning in mind. It was wrong of me.

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To clarify/recenter: Yes, we've had similar thoughts on Monk. I just do nonetheless think this version is slightly better than what we had in early Shadowbringers (though, I was not a fan of the Anatman opener, so that skews things a bit) and certainly better than late Shadowbringers. As such, it has solid B- tier gameplay to me, but I'd also put even NIN, probably the second best of the melee at the moment, imo, at barely a B. (SAM I'd put at an A or A-). My frustration with Monk is how easily it could be better and seems, just from the kit, to want just that little, fruitful bit more.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

My frustration with Monk is how easily it could be better and seems, just from the kit, to want just that little, fruitful bit more.

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This is exactly my feeling too. The job is SO close to being fun to play and just missed the mark, which is really frustrating for me. I do think that they can fix it, hopefully within the next couple patches.... it's just disappointing that they said they were gutting it in Shadowbringers to set a new foundation for the job, and then what they added on to that foundation just doesn't feel like it belongs. So perhaps my own reaction is also connected to the fact that we had several months to look forward to what new monk would be.

Also no hard feelings about the rest, can be hard to read intent over just text :)

As for me, so far reaper has been the more enjoyable melee since it's got the faster pace while still retaining the need to at least occasionally watch your positionals without having the issues I have with some of the others. Dragoon could be fun, but for me just has a major button bloat problem. I like to keep my single target rotation on a single hotbar, and that's simply not possible on dragoon. Samurai used to be fun for me, but when hagakure got nerfed, the need to more frequently use iajutsu started causing me to get major headaches and get physcially sick in the most extreme cases. Which just leaves ninja... which while I finished leveling, I haven't really dug too deeply into, preferring to spend more of my time on reaper and summoner.