People advertising they're running Parsers

I’ve played this game since launch and I’ve never seen anyone trashed for their dps , guess I’m runnin content with the right people. Parsers are not the problem.

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Originally Posted by xxmiamorecadenza

And yet this is done in a fashion that has nothing to do with the in-game chat.

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You are still missing the point :(

A lot of people, claiming to use this for themselves, really just use it to vent frustration accumulated somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Actually the TOS prohibits software that modifies the games code, so it isn't "legit." They just choose not to enforce it...for now.

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Last I checked its nothing more than a glorified packet sniffer. It's not modifying anything, but instead reading and parsing incoming data.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

You are still missing the point :(

A lot of people, claiming to use this for themselves, really just use it to vent frustration accumulated somewhere else.

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Yeah, I'm most definitely missing your point. As I don't see how them venting in an out of game setting is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Hammerhorn

I’ve played this game since launch and I’ve never seen anyone trashed for their dps , guess I’m runnin content with the right people. Parsers are not the problem.

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I've seen it. Had nothing to do with a parser either. "damn this trash is taking FOREVER to die wth" is usually it.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Dalamud is simple little program you download for FFXIV. It has dozens if not hundreds of addons that do various things for the game, by modifying its code. Some as simple as letting you get a quicker launcher. Many things, far more ominous that I wont post here.

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There's no need to be dramatic; none of the plugins do anything like bot or whatnot. Some of them would include a combo plugin that consolidates 1-2-3 combos to one button similar to pvp, timers, extended search info for RPers, Discord connections, one that lets you see which Orchestration rolls and minions you already have (really should be a default feature btw)

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Originally Posted by xxmiamorecadenza

And yet prominent streamers in the community have it displayed openly in front of audiences of hundreds to thousands. Y’all are fighting a losing battle.

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Yet those streamers don't call others out or put them on the spot, they use it for it's intended purpose. To Gauge their own performance

The ones that didn't, we know what happened, given the flames that engulfed the forums that day.

But I'm more likely to trust a streamer to use a Parser properly than random group that's already advertising in a passive aggressive manner anyway.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

It goes under datamining, because you get to see what the others is doing as well as it records to the same place all, combat logs should be private and SE can do something about that, so you can only see numbers of your own doing.

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Nope, they'll never be. Good raid groups that meet enrages in say the early weeks of savage/ultimate would like to know where they stand. Maybe the raid damage is just 100k short of killing the boss, and all the players are actually good. Knowing that piece of information could be the catalyst to make changes to doing certain mechanics, uptime, potions, etc.

There is also the aspect of knowing how much damage the boss(es) did to you, and how much were you or party members were (over)killed by. Did a healer forget to add barriers to survive a mechanic? Did you not have enough HP? What was debuffed at the time? Reprisal, addle? This kind of level of detail exists in the early weeks as well because you are undergeared.

When it comes to the ToS, there is no grey area. It's absurd that people think there's an actual grey area regarding legal text that utilize absolute words/terms. Literally any third party application [i.e. external tool] used in conjunction with the game is a violation of the ToS. Even with just using Discord or just a simple Excel spreadsheet to do things related to the game. Yoshi-P himself went over this on an old livestream. Source

It's the interpretation of those who take action that has any sense of a grey area. Legal text has no feelings or capability to understand, as it's just text obviously. This is the key factor here and why people need to understand that in many ways, most of us are, by habit, breaking ToS or at least walking that line. Using Discord, while literally suspect for violating ToS, is something that any GM would not hold against you due to its purpose (i.e. it isn't inherently being used for FFXIV nor could it be proven to be otherwise). ACT, while minor in impact to how it utilizes the games data, is a blatant violation by comparison. It's undeniable on that aspect. That said, people like Yoshi-P always stress they do understand the positive impact 3rd party apps can have. It's why he stresses people who do use it to not advertise it, especially if you're going to do so where people you don't know can see. You are factually violating ToS, so don't be stupid about it. Even something like GShade is a direct violation, just to point out lol.

Personally, anyone stupid enough to advertise they're violating ToS with whatever they're using, deserves a ban if it's coming to them. If you're stupid enough to risk it so unnecessarily, you suffer whatever consequences come your way. It's simple and straightforward. There is no need for arguing the middle ground when you understand the basic concept of what violates ToS. Ever heard of people who break the law or do something in violation of conduct, then advertise it on social media and suffer the consequences? I'd hope none of us feel sympathy for people so stupid.

I thought it wasn't about using but whether or not you are annoying others or abusing the system when it comes to addons. Logs are a great source of self improvement for those that enjoying raiding seriously with friends.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Correct. Many casual players feel threatened and uncomfortable with this. There’s nothing wrong with that. The developers have always made a point to cater to casual players. It was a founding goal of ARR. Whether someone has completed Savage yet is of no relevance, as the content is open to all who have a subscription. Better yet, it’s even open to those without one; FFXIV has only been able to grow by broadening the audience of who might play an MMO. Seeing one’s own damage might be beneficial, but the social phenomenon of logging is a legitimate concern to the community at large. Said phenomenon is no longer limited to a small group of insular raiders, but instead is publicized openly on Twitch and other places. FFXIV streamers have huge audiences now. The FFXIV population is exploding in America due to it and recent events concerning World of Warcraft, which has a similar logging culture. Thus, the increase in popularity for parsing and logging culture is new, even if said things existed in a smaller form in the past.

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If many casual players felt threatened by this they would have quit a long time ago. Parsing and FF logs have been around since ARR.
Now if SE would give us a useful UI that tells what stat values are worth rather than you have 2372 crit that would be nice. But until then we have to use parsers just to know what our % chance to crit is.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

The issue at hand isn’t just isolated incidents of harassment, it’s a culture that has taken root within the FFXIV community and occasionally bleeds over into the game proper as OP illustrated. The change in game culture is the root cause of what OP described. Square Enix only deals with the symptoms by addressing inappropriate expression in-game. Far worse behaviors exist outside of the game. People are doxxed and harassed just because of their parse. This happened in Japan to a prominent player, which caused Yoshida to take a firm stance against damage meters to say “just don’t do it”. FFlogs could take initiative against bad actors by making log uploads opt-in instead of opt-out. The webmaster could easily do this. The community could also crack down on harassment within its own Discords and forums, although this is harder. The easiest, albeit unpopular, solution would be for Square Enix to remove the battle log. Regardless, as OP illustrated, it’s a problem and a legitimate concern.

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I will be honest, some one picking on me because my DPS is low in a video game is not anything that concerns me. It would not affect my life inside or outside the game in any way. Picking on some one for there DPS is just petty. Who doxxes some one over there DPS in a game and who is actually going to care. Lets drive across country to egg that 3k dps ninja. Do you really read what you are typing this is absolutely stupid. This is not a problem, this is not a concern. Thank you for reminding me that this game makes me deal with dumb people as I forget that some times.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Actually the TOS prohibits software that modifies the games code, so it isn't "legit." They just choose not to enforce it...for now.

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The parser does not modify game code.

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Originally Posted by Imora

Last I checked its nothing more than a glorified packet sniffer. It's not modifying anything, but instead reading and parsing incoming data.

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It's really just a fancy calculator.

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

I thought it wasn't about using but whether or not you are annoying others or abusing the system when it comes to addons. Logs are a great source of self improvement for those that enjoying raiding seriously with friends.

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No it's actually against ToS. Your thoughts seem to be based on what other people or players have told you. So say you streamed a session and someone saw you with a parcer and reported you. Regardless if you were or were not pointing out to someone the lack of dps, you'd still would get a warning and mark on your account based on the ToS. Same with any third party software.

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Originally Posted by Arazehl

No it's actually against ToS. Your thoughts seem to be based on what other people or players have told you. So say you streamed a session and someone saw you with a parcer and reported you. Regardless if you were or were not pointing out to someone the lack of dps, you'd still would get a warning and mark on your account based on the ToS. Same with any third party software.

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This is why I always recommend people - as in my fellow raiders - to just silently kick instead of pointing out any issues you might have.

It's a solid solution. 'Difference in Playstyles' is a viable and SE-sanctioned option.

It is against ToS, Yoshida said it in a live letter. Talking about it in game, such as these people advertising 'Barsing' groups, you risk getting reported. If you do get reported, you get banned 100% sure.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

It is against ToS, Yoshida said it in a live letter. Talking about it in game, such as these people advertising 'Barsing' groups, you risk getting reported. If you do get reported, you get banned 100% sure.

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I've yet to run into anyone getting banned yet for parse-related activities. And 98% of my friends actively run parses - run parse parties - and so on. They just don't harass people with it.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

It is against ToS, Yoshida said it in a live letter. Talking about it in game, such as these people advertising 'Barsing' groups, you risk getting reported. If you do get reported, you get banned 100% sure.

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Here is the real question though. Does that parsing group affect your game play?

It's beautiful bulbous b[redacted] busting buddy barsing.

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

I thought it wasn't about using but whether or not you are annoying others or abusing the system when it comes to addons. Logs are a great source of self improvement for those that enjoying raiding seriously with friends.

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In practice, it isn't about whether or not you use it. By all means, go for it if you want to (I would if I cared to anymore). Just remember that it is still a violation and there are potentially (low risk) consequences. It's akin to a kindergarten teacher telling their students that they need to be careful to not play so rough with each other because they might get hurt. The kids are gonna do it anyway and punishment is going to be due to those who are caught, which is usually the most blatant offenders but there could be some unlucky ones too.

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Originally Posted by xxmiamorecadenza

I've yet to run into anyone getting banned yet for parse-related activities. And 98% of my friends actively run parses - run parse parties - and so on. They just don't harass people with it.

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And that's the point. The likelihood of being banned for just using a parser is next to none. It's what you carelessly do with it that's going to risk getting you in trouble. Even just freely advertising a parse in a party runs a risk that someone will report you for it. It's up to a GM at that point, which they'd be 100% in the right to issue a ban or warning for since it's a violation of the ToS to use any external tool or 3rd party app. There's no middle ground to what is and is not against ToS in this case.

Other than bitterness for some forsaken reason, what would the reasoning for reporting someone doing something that doesn't impact your gameplay? I mean, so far no one reported streamers for using chat bubbles and that is also against ToS or if they did, SE didn't see fit to perform any action.

And by third party softwares being bannable offenses, wouldn't that make using Discord for difficult content, something almost mandatory for savage/ultimate prog groups that don't want to stay in the same phase over and over against ToS?

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Here is the real question though. Does that parsing group affect your game play?

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The real answer "It depends, allowing a group to have a parcer only leads to others crying out to be allowed the same thing" There is always someone out there that is going to screw it up for the rest and misuse it. So SE is not going to favor the few, when they have to consider the whole.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

It is against ToS, Yoshida said it in a live letter. Talking about it in game, such as these people advertising 'Barsing' groups, you risk getting reported. If you do get reported, you get banned 100% sure.

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Where did the parser hurt you?

Seriously these are the same devs who say they don't account for healer DPS when designing content. Take what Yoshi P says with a heavy grain of salt and leave people alone.

Ultimately this boils down to casuals vs raiders aka us vs them.

Because I am a raider Ill inevitably side with my fellow raiders since they’re my chosen community. While casuals are likely to do the same - it’s why I only have only a meager handful of casual friends. Our perspectives are just different to the point where I genuinely feel like we dislike each other.

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Originally Posted by Arazehl

The real answer "It depends, allowing a group to have a parcer only leads to others crying out to be allowed the same thing" There is always someone out there that is going to screw it up for the rest and misuse it. So SE is not going to favor the few, when they have to consider the whole.

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But you don't have to join that group. If you want to do ex trials currently there is usually about 50 groups to choose from. If you want to learn the fight join a learn party, if you want to clear the fight join a clear party, if you want to farm the fight join a farm party, if you wanna try to just get high parses join a parse party. Having those different groups is actually a benefit rather than a hindrance and allows all players to play the way they choose.

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Originally Posted by xxmiamorecadenza

Ultimately this boils down to casuals vs raiders aka us vs them.

Because I am a raider Ill inevitably side with my fellow raiders since they’re my chosen community. While casuals are likely to do the same - it’s why I only have only a meager handful of casual friends. Our perspectives are just different to the point where I genuinely feel like we dislike each other.

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Uh I don't think so. I'm not a raider, and I really see zero reason to feel so affected by parsers to the point that you go into a witch-hunting and can't even endure people speaking about it. A lot of my other friends that are also casuals don't care, this boils down to wasting energy on pettiness. Just like calling out people you don't even know aggressively and haven't even asked for your opinions regarding how to improve in random PF parties is also another way of wasting energy in something that at the end of the day doesn't really matter or won't change the situation.

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

Other than bitterness for some forsaken reason, what would the reasoning for reporting someone doing something that doesn't impact your gameplay? I mean, so far no one reported streamers for using chat bubbles and that is also against ToS or if they did, SE didn't see fit to perform any action.

And by third party softwares being bannable offenses, wouldn't that make using Discord for difficult content, something almost mandatory for savage/ultimate prog groups that don't want to stay in the same phase over and over against ToS?

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That's pretty much all the reason someone would need. Bitter or not, reason doesn't have to exist for someone to report you for breaking ToS. Hence why the emphasis by everyone is to just not be stupid about using a parser (or even a bot in that community).

And yes, you are correct that Discord is, in fact, a potential violation of ToS. Yoshi-P himself addressed that before. Logically though, he did also go over how it's a grey area due to the fact that its primary use has nothing to do with the game. It's basically just VoiP software after all, utilized for all sorts of reasons unrelated to games. No different than opening Google Spreadsheet to manually calculate stuff, which is also a potential violation, as weird as that sounds. The legal wording for the ToS is all-encompassing because it protects them from outlier instances. It's their enforcement of it that is the only thing that is subjective on this specific matter. In other words, while Discord is a potential violation, they have no reasonable cause to ban you for using it since your exact purpose to use it is difficult to prove and just not worth the time as a result. Something like ACT on the otherhand, there is no doubt about it being used if you literally advertise you use it and provide evidence for it (e.g. sharing a parse).

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Originally Posted by Melorie

Uh I don't think so. I'm not a raider, and I really see zero reason to feel so affected by parsers to the point that you go into a witch-hunting and can't even endure people speaking about it. A lot of my other friends that are also casuals don't care, this boils down to wasting energy on pettiness. Just like calling out people you don't even know aggressively and haven't even asked for your opinions regarding how to improve in random PF parties is also another way of wasting energy in something that at the end of the day doesn't really matter or won't change the situation.

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You’re welcome to not think so. I’m basing my perspective on what I see on the general forums.

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Originally Posted by xxmiamorecadenza

Ultimately this boils down to casuals vs raiders aka us vs them.

Because I am a raider Ill inevitably side with my fellow raiders since they’re my chosen community. While casuals are likely to do the same - it’s why I only have only a meager handful of casual friends. Our perspectives are just different to the point where I genuinely feel like we dislike each other.

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Don't really raid in this game as I dont have a static but this tracks for me too. Anytime "meta" or "optimize" is brought up players that dont really do the content that would care about such things seem to be purely against it just because. I honestly think any game the has "put enemy hp to zero" as the primary win condition should just have a meter and be done with it. Ban idiots that tell people to kill themselves over lack of dps or something extreme like that and otherwise let it be.

I doubt people that still hardcast verthunder/aero into verthunder/aero because "the dmg is higher" while ignoring the cast time really care that much about their dps anyway.

There was a post last year or the year before where Yoshi P stated that parsers are fine as long as you don't use it against other players. He was fine with mods too as long as it's "don't flaunt it around" kind of thing. I believe he was even okay with the idea of bots doing stuff which caused backlash. I don't know the follow up to that part. But at the very least parsers have been approved as long as you don't use it against other players because the primary concern for any type of modding is how it affects other players. Personally, I don't use a parser but don't care if others do.

Official statement, haven't seen the vid in forever so what i said might be bad memory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_i6mjiGerU

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

But you don't have to join that group. If you want to do ex trials currently there is usually about 50 groups to choose from. If you want to learn the fight join a learn party, if you want to clear the fight join a clear party, if you want to farm the fight join a farm party, if you wanna try to just get high parses join a parse party. Having those different groups is actually a benefit rather than a hindrance and allows all players to play the way they choose.

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You make valid points, but again SE isn't going to give you the thumbs up for the simple fact this can lead into someone misusing it down the road who maybe part of some parsing group. It always happens. They have seen this abuse with parcers in the past and in other games. They won't allow it to happen in this game. What can be a good thing for one, turns into something to abuse for another. History proves that.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

That's pretty much all the reason someone would need. Bitter or not, reason doesn't have to exist for someone to report you for breaking ToS. Hence why the emphasis by everyone is to just not be stupid about using a parser (or even a bot in that community).

And yes, you are correct that Discord is, in fact, a potential violation of ToS. Yoshi-P himself addressed that before. Logically though, he did also go over how it's a grey area due to the fact that its primary use has nothing to do with the game. It's basically just VoiP software after all, utilized for all sorts of reasons unrelated to games. No different than opening Google Spreadsheet to manually calculate stuff, which is also a potential violation, as weird as that sounds. The legal wording for the ToS is all-encompassing because it protects them from outlier instances. It's their enforcement of it that is the only thing that is subjective on this specific matter. In other words, while Discord is a potential violation, they have no reasonable cause to ban you for using it since your exact purpose to use it is difficult to prove and just not worth the time as a result. Something like ACT on the otherhand, there is no doubt about it being used if you literally advertise you use it and provide evidence for it (e.g. sharing a parse).

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Thank you, I appreciate the explanation on that one.

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

Where did the parser hurt you?

Seriously these are the same devs who say they don't account for healer DPS when designing content. Take what Yoshi P says with a heavy grain of salt and leave people alone.

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Why are you switching to personal attacks?
I simply said it IS against ToS, even if you want people to accept it, if you advertise yourself using parses so openly you risk getting reported.

Did I say I report these or something? No, but there are a lot of people in game that feel the need to report every single offense. Use it all you want, but get caught and risk being banned, because it is agaisnt ToS.

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Originally Posted by Eriane_Elis

There was a post last year or the year before where Yoshi P stated that parsers are fine as long as you don't use it against other players. He was fine with mods too as long as it's "don't flaunt it around" kind of thing. I believe he was even okay with the idea of bots doing stuff which caused backlash. I don't know the follow up to that part. But at the very least parsers have been approved as long as you don't use it against other players because the primary concern for any type of modding is how it affects other players. Personally, I don't use a parser but don't care if others do.

Official statement, haven't seen the vid in forever so what i said might be bad memory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_i6mjiGerU

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If you watch the video at the 3:00 mark he says exactly why they don't approve third party tools. So no he didn't say it was okay. He explained why they choose not to approved them for FFXIV. Just because his personal views on parcers is somewhat laxed he explain why FFXIV game as a whole won't allow them and they remain against ToS. There is always those that will screw the whole thing up.

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Originally Posted by xxmiamorecadenza

Ultimately this boils down to casuals vs raiders aka us vs them.

Because I am a raider Ill inevitably side with my fellow raiders since they’re my chosen community. While casuals are likely to do the same - it’s why I only have only a meager handful of casual friends. Our perspectives are just different to the point where I genuinely feel like we dislike each other.

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Casuals and raiders have nothing to do with ToS violation. You imply that SE won't ban/warn you for sending out parses to random people that end up reporting you simply because you're either a "raider" or a "casual" lol. No group of players are above the ToS. Ultimately, the final say is the GMs (or the higher ups) who interpret the binding legal text of the ToS.

I think I get what you're trying to say though, which is that you're looking at it from a moral standing of subjective acceptance. That despite what the ToS says, you're not breaking any rules because you're not violating any self-imposed moral clause (i.e. not harassing anyone). Regardless of stance on that matter, that's not how an objective document like the ToS works though. It's akin to how some people wrongfully view pirating as 100% okay because of some weird moral standard they have regarding money or whatever else. If the binding document (e.g. ToS, public laws, etc) says something is bad, then it's bad. What someone chooses to do in spite of that is their own decision.

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

Thank you, I appreciate the explanation on that one.

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You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

You are still missing the point :(

A lot of people, claiming to use this for themselves, really just use it to vent frustration accumulated somewhere else.

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You say that like those need to be mutually exclusive. It's possible to use a parser for your own benefit, primarily for the purpose of self improvement, but also notice the reason your run is crawling at a snail's pace is because melee dps #2342 is doing less dps than your half-afk healer and it seems a little sus. Venting to friends is a far cry from harassing strangers, and doesn't make you a liar just for saying you're using a parser for yourself too.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

words

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I suppose you're right in that regard.

But, thankfully, parsers will remain steadfast in the raiding community as long as dps checks exist and the enjoyment of optimizing is present.

Which I'm very happy about.

Report anyone dumb enough to publicly state it and move on. For real, given that modding the game is against the rules, people who openly brag about how they mod the game - whether it's parsers or their big booby bunny mods - deserve what they get.

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. Yes, if someone mentions parse numbers then you can technically report them, but if it is an innocent mention does it really matter?

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Yes, it does matter. Parsers arent allowed. The rule of thumb is 'dont ask dont tell",. I dont mind you using one for your own performance.

Other than that: unless you want to get reported and banned.

Not. one. word.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

It goes under datamining, because you get to see what the others is doing as well as it records to the same place all, combat logs should be private and SE can do something about that, so you can only see numbers of your own doing.

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No, it’s not. It’s reading data you can find in the Battle Tab of your chat window. That anyone in the party can also read, since the battle log is shared amongst a group.