So how is whm doing?

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

Same old, same old.
If anything, I feel like I really have to keep an eye on my mana when spamming stone, which was never an issue before.

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I think this is low key what people miss when they say "But medica is cheaper now!"

The big MP consumer was stone/glare. At least personally, I used thin air with PoM and a bunch of glares when raiding to save MP.

New thin air might be great for raising, but, raising is situational and you can't do the above anymore....

Buff Misery to 930 pot upon learning Glare III, put 2 charges of Assize and reduce Lilybell CD (and its potency).
It should be a great start.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

the mp economy on whm is atrocious. dying once at any point is unrecoverable unless you have loads of piety melded



meanwhile, every other healer is mp positive without amy piety

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I had a WHM during the 1st level 90 dungeon that died during the last boss. The SMN rezzed them and you could tell they were struggling with MP, trying to salvage the run as best they could but the PLD pretty much had to play back-up healer from that point and it was just awful.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Buff Misery to 930 pot upon learning Glare III, put 2 charges of Assize and reduce Lilybell CD (and its potency).
It should be a great start.

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Lilybell is so underwhelming that it could be a 90s CD and still wouldn't help

At level 80, I was 1 shotting a lvl 50 mob in the open world with my dot before the squish.
Now at 90, I do less than half of it's hp.
"you will not feel a difference after the squish" they said in the live letter....
Thank you square enix. Thank you very much. /sarcasm

Never had mana issues or lacks of heal potency though.
If you have to heal A LOT (and therefor have mana issues), it means your party members suck at doing mechs. Not your fault.
Liturgy is OP if you know how to use it.

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Originally Posted by Synoptic

At level 80, I was 1 shotting a lvl 50 mob in the open world with my dot before the squish.
Now at 90, I do less than half of it's hp.
"you will not feel a difference after the squish" they said in the live letter....
Thank you square enix. Thank you very much. /sarcasm

Never had mana issues or lacks of heal potency though.
If you have to heal A LOT (and therefor have mana issues), it means your party members suck at doing mechs. Not your fault.
Liturgy is OP if you know how to use it.

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To be fair, if it's on WHM, that's not [entirely] because of the stat squish. Aero/Dia's initial damage was literally cut in half from 120 to 60 potency

While Ive had no trouble healing in dungeons as WHM at all through lvl 80-90 I will ask for some things:

Bring thin air back as it was. The two stacks are akward and spent on glares at this point and thin air was a saving grace if the WHM died to be able to get up and heal themself and others. Now if WHM die, we are basically screwed (unless we have a WAR lol)

The bell needs to have a shorter cooldown and be triggered by anyone in the party taking damage. For the lols yesterday I took it out in a dungeon run and STOOD IN AN AOE to trigger it....Its use is so niche and its cooldown so long that it becomes a pointless thing to use in anything but some few instances. It is pretty though, and the healwaves feel satisfying when triggered.

Buff misery, buff glare.

If you will not revert thin air then make assize give more mp back when used. It is ridic that as AST I can spam and spam and be full mp while WHM suddenly is at half mp during the same amount of time for simply using glare but OH LET ME USE MY TWO STACKS OF THIN AIR.....

honestly.....what the hell.

Having done both AST and WHM to 90 now there is absolutely nothing a WHM can bring now that an AST can't do better. Currently. Things could change - perhaps there will be a fight where everyone explodes if you don't cast Liturgy?

The only reason to play one now is muscle memory or you like the look of Holy over Gravity.

Liturgy needs a rework- mana needs looking at and Misery needs to be buffed through the roof.

I hope I'm missing something here - the sky may not be falling but it does kind of feel like it.

Not quite to 90 yet but I just took a look at Sage's toolkit and I think I might have found a new main. Which is crazy because I've been playing White Mage since the start of this game. At any rate WHM does seem like more of the same at this point though I'm only @85. I'd suggest everything lilly-related to come off the GCD and give us a dps option for lilly stacks. If we had that I might actually use them in combat instead of throwing them away inbetween pulls for Misery. And please give us back Aero 3. It is so boring to dps on WHM now. 2-3 expansions ago we had fluid aura, aero 3 and cleric stance. dps'ing as a WHM was like an elegant dance and those that could weave dps and healing were few and far between. Now all healer dps boils down to is throw up your DoT and spam your nuke. Oh, spam your AoE if > three mobs. Boring.

my feeling on whm, its stayed the same however it will be dead in raids if no mp management tool be buffed/added/changed to him.
your mp is barely sustainable if u rapidly heal so during progs whm will be the worse option to take especially since lucid dreaming available to every healer and once for farming you really wont need whm cause u have the other pure healer ast add additional stuff to the run such as buffs and including a stacked shield so you will only see whm in casual content but savage/ultimate whm wont see the light of day right now.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Having done both AST and WHM to 90 now there is absolutely nothing a WHM can bring now that an AST can't do better. Currently. Things could change - perhaps there will be a fight where everyone explodes if you don't cast Liturgy?

The only reason to play one now is muscle memory or you like the look of Holy over Gravity.

Liturgy needs a rework- mana needs looking at and Misery needs to be buffed through the roof.

I hope I'm missing something here - the sky may not be falling but it does kind of feel like it.

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Yeah I'm completely shocked that they buffed AST heals so much. WHM has longer cast times, cost more MP, and some of them heal less. This job also has less oGCDs overall so you'd think the GCD heals would be stronger, not weaker.

Given the amount of complaining regarding healers being too easy to play, I don't see why so many are calling for buffs to WHM, rather than nerfs to the others. Bring all the healers down to how WHM currently is..... let MP matter again.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Given the amount of complaining regarding healers being too easy to play, I don't see why so many are calling for buffs to WHM, rather than nerfs to the others. Bring all the healers down to how WHM currently is..... let MP matter again.

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Being MP negative from simple DPSing does not make for challenging healing.

I'm honestly not sure what kind of realistic advantage WHM is supposed to offer over any of the other healers, not just Astrologian. It's still pretty early and I haven't yet leveled all the healers, but just looking through it and knowing how WHM has been previously, I just don't see anything noteworthy.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Being MP negative from simple DPSing does not make for challenging healing.

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Are we playing the same game? Spamming glare is not making me run out of mana. I adjusted the way I heal slightly and haven't had any significant issues.
Every expansion SE chooses to buff jobs rather than nerf to obtain balance, and every time we just end up with over-tuned jobs for the content being made.

Oh right, buff Misery. It is time, devs. Make it satisfying to use.

Maybe i'm the only one crazy here but i never ran out of MP on WHM during Shadowbringers and i never used Thin air for anything but a emergency rez that happens directly after i was rezzed myself (and thus had too little MP to rez myself) which the new Thin air also achieves. During regular combat Lillies & the occasional OGCD's being free heals + Assize + Lucid dreaming was enough to keep me topped up. Knowing SE the best you guys can achieve with complaining about it is to revert Assize to restore 10% mp again.

The only thing i can agree on is that the Thin air change makes Cure III even more questionable as a tool to have.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Maybe i'm the only one crazy here but i never ran out of MP on WHM during Shadowbringers and i never used Thin air for anything but a emergency rez that happens directly after i was rezzed myself (and thus had too little MP to rez myself) which the new Thin air also achieves. During regular combat Lillies & the occasional OGCD's being free heals + Assize + Lucid dreaming was enough to keep me topped up. Knowing SE the best you guys can achieve with complaining about it is to revert Assize to restore 10% mp again.

The only thing i can agree on is that the Thin air change makes Cure III even more questionable as a tool to have.

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Question. After you were rezzed in ShB and used Thin Air for the emergency rez, did you just sit there doing nothing or where you casting something? I mean, Thin Air was going for at least 9s after the rez. You have yourself to heal up, the newly rezzed person and your remaining group. I'm sure you used Medica or Cure 2 since you lost your Lillies dying, to say nothing of Glare or Dia. How much MP would that be? Roughly 1400 assuming just 1 Medica/Cure2 + Glare/Dia in those 9s but be truthful, it was more than 1 Medica or Cure 2. It was probably a Medica 2 and a few Glares. So maybe closer to 2k MP.

2k MP is a lot to lose out on, especially after a rez.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Question. After you were rezzed in ShB and used Thin Air for the emergency rez, did you just sit there doing nothing or where you casting something?

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Counterquestion. Do you think other healers are unplayable because they have no Thin air to recover with from after death?

Ofc i cast something else but do you think the 1200 MP i save on Casting Glare & Dia (1600mp if it wasnt for that 1 rez i mentioned), while Bene, Tetra & assize heal the party, really make a difference considering pressing Lucid dreaming every 60s restores 3850mp and Lilly spells cost 0.
Previous Thin air only made sense if you were in dire need for 4 GCD heals. Which honestly never comes up and if it comes up... well we got liturgy of the Bell now. Thin Air was always a Rez button to me, but now the occasional medica 2 is also gonna be free. Instead of 4 free GCD heals we have 2 now and more flexible. I really don't see the problem.
Tl;dr start pressing Lucid. It's bad MP design but it works.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Counterquestion. Do you think other healers are unplayable because they have no Thin air to recover with from after death?

Ofc i cast something else but do you think the 1200 MP i save on Casting Glare & Dia (1600mp if it wasnt for that 1 rez i mentioned), while Bene, Tetra & assize heal the party, really make a difference considering pressing Lucid dreaming every 60s restores 3850mp and Lilly spells cost 0.
Previous Thin air only made sense if you were in dire need for 4 GCD heals. Which honestly never comes up and if it comes up... well we got liturgy of the Bell now. Thin Air was always a Rez button to me, but now the occasional medica 2 is also gonna be free. Instead of 4 free GCD heals we have 2 now and more flexible. I really don't see the problem.
Tl;dr start pressing Lucid. It's bad MP design but it works.

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it does make a difference. everyone else gets lucid, and every other healer is *mp positive* with no piety, while whm is mp negative.

i can die 3 times in a fight as astro and i can have mp for the rest of the fight. whm will run out of mp after some minutes, unless you just stop casting for a while

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Originally Posted by QooEr

it does make a difference. everyone else gets lucid, and every other healer is *mp positive* with no piety, while whm is mp negative.

i can die 3 times in a fight as astro and i can have mp for the rest of the fight. whm will run out of mp after some minutes, unless you just stop casting for a while

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Yeah But Astro is also hillariously overtuned rn, having an access to essentially 2 lucid dreams while restoring 5% MP with each draw is the funniest MP economy I've ever seen.

SCH & SGE recover 20%/21% MP every 60s and WHM can get 1 GCD heal for free every 60s now, for the sake of simplicity lets say medica 2 which costs 10% mp (but it can be a free Rez which is 24% MP) and Assize restores 5%. Hence why i said at best you'll get Assize back to 10% MP regeneration (or what I'd prefer, assize being on a 30s cooldown). They nerfed Thin air so that WHM's MP economy is in line with other healers. Though i have no clue what they were thinking with Astrologian.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Yeah But Astro is also hillariously overtuned rn, having an access to essentially 2 lucid dreams while restoring 5% MP with each draw is the funniest MP economy I've ever seen.

SCH & SGE recover 20%/21% MP every 60s and WHM can get 1 GCD heal for free every 60s now, for the sake of simplicity lets say medica 2 which costs 10% mp (but it can be a free Rez which is 24% MP) and Assize restores 5%. Hence why i said at best you'll get Assize back to 10% MP regeneration (or what I'd prefer, assize being on a 30s cooldown). They nerfed Thin air so that WHM's MP economy is in line with other healers. Though i have no clue what they were thinking with Astrologian.

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The problem with that though is that, unlike the other healers, WHM's oGCD toolkit is lacking considerably. While every other healer has a plethora of oGCD to offset the drain on their MP, WHM has all of 4 skills to try and do the same, the majority of which are on much longer CDs than anything that the other healers have to deal with. Thin Air countered this just by removing the MP cost of skills but now that it's limited to such an extent and no real additions to its oGCD toolkit (Lilybell on a 3 minute CD kills virtually any chance the skill had) WHM is much worse off than just a simple 5% MP economy

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

The problem with that though is that, unlike the other healers, WHM's oGCD toolkit is lacking considerably. While every other healer has a plethora of oGCD to offset the drain on their MP, WHM has all of 4 skills to try and so the same, the majority of which are on much longer CDs than anything that the other healers have to deal with. Thin Air countered this just by removing the MP cost of skills but now that it's limited to such an extent and no real additions to its oGCD toolkit (Lilybell on a 3 minute CD kills virtually any chance the skill had) WHM is much worse off than just a simple 5% MP economy

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What you say is true but again. I never had MP issues while ignoring Thin air and just using it for a free rez (which someone else already pointed out in this thread, usually doesnt come up often) so i really don't see the problem. Sorry.
I know we lose lilies on death but if you don't die WHM just doesn't have MP issues period. I'd be great if we kept lilies upon death. Losing Blood Lily is punishment enough.

They totally shafted WHM

We are rock bottom in term of everything mana regen, dips not sure , no shield, our pure heal isn’t good, why bring WHM when AST do everything and more not to mention our 90 skill is a joke

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

What you say is true but again. I never had MP issues while ignoring Thin air and just using it for a free rez (which someone else already pointed out in this thread, usually doesnt come up often) so i really don't see the problem. Sorry.

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When I saw the changes made to Thin Air, I was like, oh right, that's a thing. I honestly never used Thin Air the entire ShB xpac; literally forgot to put it on my hotbar and never used it the old way. I also rarely had mana problems, aside from dying with lucid on cooldown. I carry ether for those occasions. If I don't die, and i'm using lucid semi-regularly, not even on cooldown, I never really had issues. Starting using it for Endwalker, and its pretty handy.

Seems like half of the kit costs no mana at all now. Most, if not all, of the instant casts we've gotten from 51+ have been 0 mp with a cd. If you're running out of mana without dying, you might be neglecting your cooldowns, or your party is simply failing too many mechanics. If you didn't run out under those circumstances, then it'd be pointless to even have mana.

I'm still hoping that at some point WHM will get a more full identity. It's already the most GCD dependent healer and they can make that it's niche since many people seem to gravitate to it for that very reason. We've said it constantly on this forum but Presence of Mind would be a wonderful trait. It could be a constant passive or maybe something that requires 4 consecutive cast of any spell to activate, granting the WHM 15 seconds of PoM that can be stacked up to a 60 second duration with continued cast. Let Lilies take 20 seconds to acquire while under PoM and upgrade Assize via trait to give ten seconds of PoM for faster ramp up after down time. If Presence of Mind offered an MP reduction to spell cost it would be a kit that truly encouraged ABC (always be casting) with a faster but simple play style that rewarded both pure healers and those adept at multitasking with dps. The longer cast times and heavy mp cost on everything would finally make sense compared to Astro since it would have a simple buff to upkeep to offset the differences.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the thin air nerf prevent them from using any form of low piety build? I'm pretty sure everyone and their mother is going to be fiending for crit/det gear with crit/direct hit melds (provided that's how meld priority still works) and I'm not sure where spell speed will fit in due to attack spells being on a 1.5 gcd. But it seems like WHM is going to be the most reliant on piety now to me, what with its only MP restoration tools being Lucid Dreaming and Assize .

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Maybe i'm the only one crazy here but i never ran out of MP on WHM during Shadowbringers and i never used Thin air for anything but a emergency rez that happens directly after i was rezzed myself (and thus had too little MP to rez myself) which the new Thin air also achieves.

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You either had poor Uptime (if you're only casting 70% of the time instead of 95-100% for example, you're using less mana) or you had a lot of Piety and low Spell Speed.

On low Piety during ShB, WHM would mathematically empty on mana before the end of a raid fight just using Glare if they didn't use Thin Air.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

You either had poor Uptime (if you're only casting 70% of the time instead of 95-100% for example, you're using less mana) or you had a lot of Piety and low Spell Speed.

On low Piety during ShB, WHM would mathematically empty on mana before the end of a raid fight just using Glare if they didn't use Thin Air.

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I always melded DET & SPS, never melded Piety. Never had MP issues without using Thin air. During movement mechanicts id always spam Dia even if the DoT didnt need to be re-applied. Using Lucid and Lily spells is more than enough to keep WHM topped up. Again, the new thin air is effectively 10%-24% MP saved every 60s. I really dont get where you guys are coming from with WHM being unplayable without using Thin Air.

Also if we're really gonna use the new thin air exactly like the old one, meaning using both charges on glare every 120s and using 2 Lucids on cooldown to fit that 120s window.
ShB thin air saves 16% mana and Lucid restores 70%
ENW thin air saves 8% mana and Lucid restores 77%
Are you really gonna argue 1% mana deficite is enough to break WHM mp economy?

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I always melded DET & SPS, never melded Piety. Never had MP issues without using Thin air. During movement mechanicts id always spam Dia even if the DoT didnt need to be re-applied. Using Lucid and Lily spells is more than enough to keep WHM topped up. Again, the new thin air is effectively 10%-24% MP saved every 60s. I really dont get where you guys are coming from with WHM being unplayable without using Thin Air.

Also if we're really gonna use the new thin air exactly like the old one, meaning using both charges on glare every 120s and using 2 Lucids on cooldown to fit that 120s window.
ShB thin air saves 16% mana and Lucid restores 70%
ENW thin air saves 8% mana and Lucid restores 77%
Are you really gonna argue 1% mana deficite is enough to break WHM mp economy?

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First off, Thin Air is 12s. How where you only getting 4 casts in instead of 5? Even with low SpS, 5 casts every Thin Air was possible, even more so if you used PoM in conjunction with Thin Air.
Secondly, PoM was on a 150s CD in ShB vs the current 120s, meaning it's up more often and putting more strain on your MP.
Finally, Old Thin Air had a much higher saved MP potential than you're playing it out to be. On mechanics like Terminal Relativity, you would cast things like Medica 2 and Cure 3 as well as any Glares you could fit in as well, so in those instances, Thin Air was saving you much more than the current iteration could ever hope to match. Even if both charges are available to get rid of the costs of Medica 2 and Cure 3, the Glare casts are still coming out of your MP whereas before that wasn't the case.

So yes, that mana deficit is absolutely enough to break WHM's mp economy.

I think for me it was, with "old" thin air, I was barely using LD at all. Now with the thin air nerf, I have to use LD alot more, and since I can't count on thin air to keep me on high mp at all times, my lucid will be down if I die while progging, which makes it basically impossible to recover mp to a nice level for a long time, even with two "free casts". I feel the difference is massive even when old thin air only gave you a couple casts (which were more than 2 anyhow) . I would never drop below 80% before with constant casting and now I am easily down to 50% after a while of glarespamming if I dont watch my mp. I just dont get why they did it, when you compare to what they gave AST in terms of mp.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

First off, Thin Air is 12s. How where you only getting 4 casts in instead of 5? Even with low SpS, 5 casts every Thin Air was possible, even more so if you used PoM in conjunction with Thin Air.
Secondly, PoM was on a 150s CD in ShB vs the current 120s, meaning it's up more often and putting more strain on your MP.
Finally, Old Thin Air had a much higher saved MP potential than you're playing it out to be. On mechanics like Terminal Relativity, you would cast things like Medica 2 and Cure 3 as well as any Glares you could fit in as well, so in those instances, Thin Air was saving you much more than the current iteration could ever hope to match. Even if both charges are available to get rid of the costs of Medica 2 and Cure 3, the Glare casts are still coming out of your MP whereas before that wasn't the case.

So yes, that mana deficit is absolutely enough to break WHM's mp economy.

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The answer i was replying to was just about regular glare spamming. Im aware that in instances where multiple GCD heals are necesary the new thin air sucks but even if you consider glare 5th cast or more PoM uptime the difference is so tiny that it can be fixed by Assize restoring 5% more mana or being on a 30s cooldown.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

The answer i was replying to was just about regular glare spamming. Im aware that in instances where multiple GCD heals are necesary the new thin air sucks but even if you consider glare 5th cast or more PoM uptime the difference is so tiny that it can be fixed by Assize restoring 5% more mana or being on a 30s cooldown.

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Tiny in relation to our DPS spells. It's when you have to go into your Healing toolkit that it becomes a problem and while Lilies help alleviate some of that strain, they're slow to accumulate and only go so far.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

The answer i was replying to was just about regular glare spamming. Im aware that in instances where multiple GCD heals are necesary the new thin air sucks but even if you consider glare 5th cast or more PoM uptime the difference is so tiny that it can be fixed by Assize restoring 5% more mana or being on a 30s cooldown.

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It's not tiny. Your 1% difference math was off. That 5th Glare during the old thin Air or the new PoM resulting in extra Glares is 4% each time, almost an Assize worth. It's a delicate balance because it means the difference between going out of mana at 7 min 20 sec in an 8 min raid fight instead of at 8 min 30 sec.

It also doesn't help that Lilies are part of our mana economy, every lily cast is a GCD that cost 0 mana ...but we're punished with a dps tax for every lily we use.

This wouldn't be an issue if every healer was in the same boat and mana management, piety melds and dps tax considerations were a part of healing. But when AST and Sage have all the mana they want and tons of tax-free heals, WHM is suddenly far worse by comparison. There's also the fact that the old Thin Air was a perfectly fine ability and nerfing it was unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It also doesn't help that Lilies are part of our mana economy, every lily cast is a GCD that cost 0 mana ...but we're punished with a dps tax for every lily we use.

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I feel like this is the crux of the issue. You're so concerned with 300 potency (well, 340 potency now. thanks squeenix) that you'd rather go oom.

Personally i don't believe previous Thin Air was perfectly fine. Using it on Glare feels like a waste of a strong ability and situations where 3+ GCD heals are required, that aren't lilies are rare. New Thin air is weaker but more flexible.
You did made your point however that WHM needs more of a mana push than what i initially thought on and i'd prefer that over Thin air getting reverted to its previous form.
SGE & SCH recover 21/20% mp every 60s so a Assize with 30s cooldown and 2 charges restoring 10% MP each would be a better solution (and also give WHM more OGCD heals).

They could always add MP regen to Liturgy of the Bell. Present state, its a poor ability... especially for our lv90 ability.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I feel like this is the crux of the issue. You're so concerned with 300 potency (well, 340 potency now. thanks squeenix) that you'd rather go oom.

Personally i don't believe previous Thin Air was perfectly fine. Using it on Glare feels like a waste of a strong ability and situations where 3+ GCD heals are required, that aren't lilies are rare. New Thin air is weaker but more flexible.
You did made your point however that WHM needs more of a mana push than what i initially thought on and i'd prefer that over Thin air getting reverted to its previous form.
SGE & SCH recover 21/20% mp every 60s so a Assize with 30s cooldown and 2 charges restoring 10% MP each would be a better solution (and also give WHM more OGCD heals).

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It's not so much the crux of the issue so much that the issue is just exacerbated by it. Of all the healer resources, WHM's lilies are by far the worst. SCH+SGE pretty much start out with 3 of their resource points off the bat, and get 3 back every minute. WHM starts off with nothing and only gets 2 resources in the same span of time as SCH/SGE. On top of that, SCH and SGE have a means of getting more of their resources to use with Dissipation+Recitation for SCH and Rhizomata for SGE which, again, WHM has nothing to contend with. The only benefit to Lilies is that they refund some of their damage in the form of Misery but it's still at a potency loss of 340 potency, with the only close comparison on any of the other Healers would be SCH losing 100 potency per E.Drain missed and that's still much less than what is lost on WHM.

I'm fine with Assize getting buffed to a 10% MP restore but WHM needs more than just that. If, as well as buffing Assize, Lilies were also improved in some ways, such as allowing them to accumulate on a 20s timer rather than a 30s one, WHM's MP economy would be much better off.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

It's not so much the crux of the issue so much that the issue is just exacerbated by it. Of all the healer resources, WHM's lilies are by far the worst. SCH+SGE pretty much start out with 3 of their resource points off the bat, and get 3 back every minute. WHM starts off with nothing and only gets 2 resources in the same span of time as SCH/SGE. On top of that, SCH and SGE have a means of getting more of their resources to use with Dissipation+Recitation for SCH and Rhizomata for SGE which, again, WHM has nothing to contend with. The only benefit to Lilies is that they refund some of their damage in the form of Misery but it's still at a potency loss of 340 potency, with the only close comparison on any of the other Healers would be SCH losing 100 potency per E.Drain missed and that's still much less than what is lost on WHM.

I'm fine with Assize getting buffed to a 10% MP restore but WHM needs more than just that. If, as well as buffing Assize, Lilies were also improved in some ways, such as allowing them to accumulate on a 20s timer rather than a 30s one, WHM's MP economy would be much better off.

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It's really disappointing the Lily system wasn't expanded upon this expansion. I really liked it in Shadowbringers, even if it was 25% DPS drop (higher drop now). Just such a waste of opportunity (would also prefer if it wasn't backloaded like that, low level dungeons are a snoozefest).

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

It's really disappointing the Lily system wasn't expanded upon this expansion. I really liked it in Shadowbringers, even if it was 25% DPS drop (higher drop now). Just such a waste of opportunity (would also prefer if it wasn't backloaded like that, low level dungeons are a snoozefest).

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I'm of the mindset that WHM needs an overhaul much like BLM got, with some additions to the toolkit so that the leveling experience is an overall positive one while also expanding the Lily system as a whole. Wasted opportunity is all WHM ever gets.

Can they just delete thin air and make it a trait for raise to have two free cast charges?