So... Is Lahabrea REALLY dead-dead?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Gaia could have reincarnated multiple times in that period. Assuming that Ryne is a shard of Minfilia (as it is heavily implied), she reincarnated many times in that same span.

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I assume this didn't happen, because if it did he wouldn't have lost. He wants Loghrif back and was doing the whole 'fairy voice' thing to do it. The WoL and Ryne were the only real reason that failed, so we can reasonably assume that if he was able to try earlier than with Gaia, he could've awoken Loghrif way earlier and we wouldn't have even had a Gaia.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

This is irrelevant to the point I was making: That G'raha sees Minfilia and Ryne's shenanigans as fundamentally different from the WoL and Ardbert's.

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Strictly speaking, we have no way of knowing that. As he simply doesn't mention their situation. It may be he considers them in precisely the same camp.

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He thought Ryne was a reincarnation of the Oracle of Light. He is surprised at how poorly she's performed under that metric. What he's just learned about her needing to awaken the true Oracle made him reexamine her, and he discovered that Minfilia's soul is actually laying dormant inside of Ryne, rather than being Ryne's soul.

In other words: He was mistaken about Ryne being a reincarnation.

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That is one interpretation, but I find it lacking. Nowhere does Emet say he was mistaken or under a misconception, that must be inferred. Moreover as I noted earlier, we have no mechanism for one soul merging with another outside of being a rejoining. Not to mention the question of why in the world Minfilia would exclusively possess young girls from very early childhood or even from birth, when it would make far more sense to simply possess a fully-grown warrior. Years and years were wasted in the bodies of these girls as they aged, developed, and were found to be the next Minfilia. And they seemingly all shared Ryne's predicament of not having memories of their past lives and their powers transferred to them, really making Ryne not so underwhelming in comparison to that metric.

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There's also the little matter of Ryne explicitly having never heard Hydaelyn's voice, despite being present for every single star shower we've witnessed on the First. This shouldn't be the case if she were Minfilia's reincarnation or a shard of the same soul, since Minfilia explicitly had the Echo.

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We know the awakening of the Echo can be quite fickle. It may be not all shards share the same aptitude for it. It could easily be random chance that Minfilia awakened and Ryne didn't.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I assume this didn't happen, because if it did he wouldn't have lost. He wants Loghrif back and was doing the whole 'fairy voice' thing to do it. The WoL and Ryne were the only real reason that failed, so we can reasonably assume that if he was able to try earlier than with Gaia, he could've awoken Loghrif way earlier and we wouldn't have even had a Gaia.

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As I said, there are too many unknowns to simply conclude that he was always capable of it as he was at the time the game takes place. Hell, for all we know he did and several Gaia's walked off into the Empty to die of aether poisoning.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Minor reminder: Those probably can't be restored anymore. At least, not without immense difficulty. We trashed the soul crystals by throwing them into the First's Crystal Tower with Elidibus; whether that's salvageable or not is still an open question, but it's an open question that hasn't been asked in-universe, which leads me to assume we probably aren't meant to be asking it ourselves.

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Why shouldn't we be wondering? It's divisive enough to ask whether the originals are dead-dead. Wouldn't it be kind of weird if we got all those cryptic messages and didn't use them? They gave us vague insight into the thought process of each member, but all we really did with the stones was make baby Elidibus cry.

Maybe it will be our having read them that turns out to be more important than their ability to instill memories in the seat holders' minds. Hmm.

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Originally Posted by vormela

Why shouldn't we be wondering? It's divisive enough to ask whether the originals are dead-dead. Wouldn't it be kind of weird if we got all those cryptic messages and didn't use them? They gave us vague insight into the thought process of each member, but all we really did with the stones was make baby Elidibus cry.

Maybe it will be our having read them that turns out to be more important than their ability to instill memories in the seat holders' minds. Hmm.

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To clarify what I mean, the fact we disposed of Elidibus and the crystals has never been even off-handedly discussed as a thing that may not be permanent, and it's been two-and-a-half patches since then--all three of those patches including at least one Ascian in a starring role (5.4 including either two or three, depending on how you count Loghrif). They've had ample opportunity to discuss that subject, and they haven't--especially notable around Fandaniel, since a huge part of his current motivation is that everyone above him in the organization is dead. Which reads to me as 'that's done, let's move on'. Which is fine; it's not feasible to just keep leaving that stuff open.

I absolutely think the crystals will come up again, but not in a 'we got these back, it's Ascian Time again' way; you're right that the fact we know about and listened to them is more important than what they were capable of. After all, they want to close the book on the Ascians, bringing back the crystals after they were very plausibly disposed of is kinda just the writers making more work for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

To clarify what I mean, the fact we disposed of Elidibus and the crystals has never been even off-handedly discussed as a thing that may not be permanent, and it's been two-and-a-half patches since then--all three of those patches including at least one Ascian in a starring role (5.4 including either two or three, depending on how you count Loghrif). They've had ample opportunity to discuss that subject, and they haven't--especially notable around Fandaniel, since a huge part of his current motivation is that everyone above him in the organization is dead. Which reads to me as 'that's done, let's move on'. Which is fine; it's not feasible to just keep leaving that stuff open.

I absolutely think the crystals will come up again, but not in a 'we got these back, it's Ascian Time again' way; you're right that the fact we know about and listened to them is more important than what they were capable of. After all, they want to close the book on the Ascians, bringing back the crystals after they were very plausibly disposed of is kinda just the writers making more work for themselves.

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They brought Gaius back 13 patches later after presumably dying in the Praetorium explosions. I wouldn't consider something not being mentioned for a couple of patches as proof it's done.

To be honest, I'm expecting (meta-role quest spoiler)

the Crystal Tower on the First to end up playing a key role in the plans to save the Thirteenth. I highly doubt SE will neglect to continue that story. Memories contained within the stars could be useful in determining exactly what went wrong and how to correct it. It's doubtful the memories would be limited to pre-Sundering, they would be updated with the memories of the shards that died before being passed to the next shard raised to the Seat so they would be up to date on everything going on..

There's always the chance we could gain the cooperation of what Ascians are still left at the end of 6.0 but the stars in the Tower would be a very useful backup. Closing the book on the Ascians as an organization doesn't necessarily mean closing the book on its individual members.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

They brought Gaius back 13 patches later after presumably dying in the Praetorium explosions. I wouldn't consider something not being mentioned for a couple of patches as proof it's done.

To be honest, I'm expecting (meta-role quest spoiler)

the Crystal Tower on the First to end up playing a key role in the plans to save the Thirteenth. I highly doubt SE will neglect to continue that story. Memories contained within the stars could be useful in determining exactly what went wrong and how to correct it. It's doubtful the memories would be limited to pre-Sundering, they would be updated with the memories of the shards that died before being passed to the next shard raised to the Seat so they would be up to date on everything going on..

There's always the chance we could gain the cooperation of what Ascians are still left at the end of 6.0 but the stars in the Tower would be a very useful backup. Closing the book on the Ascians as an organization doesn't necessarily mean closing the book on its individual members.

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especially as several showed up for the post-2.0 Official Ascian Conference and were never heard from again. I can't imagine SE won't do something with at least a few of the unaccounted for Ascians.

Weeelll... The pandemonium raid was released in full, and we got our answer it seems.

As stated by multiple characters at the final cutscenes for Anabaseios... Yeah, Lahabrea is dead-dead. Undone, spread in the ethereal sea. Its metabolic processes are now history. He's off the twig, kicked the bucket, shuffled off his mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleeding choir invisible. That is indeed, an ex-Lahabrea...

Oh well. Can't lie and say I'm not disappointed by this conclusion to this age-old doubt of mine, so, but it is what it is. Oh well =\

Is that really the case? Then what was the glimmer Themis saw after Lahabrea passed? I thought it was supposed to be Lahabrea's soul or something.

That wasn't the real Lahabrea and Erichthonios. They were memory-copies taken from the crystal and given form.

If he's still out there for some reason, this has not negated it.

Right. But had Lahabrea's soul been in the aetherial sea or anywhere really, why didn't Athena do anything with it/about it if she was eager enough to use Themis' soul.

Either way it's weird that Lahabrea SPECIFICALLY would be super dead, an achievement only rewarded to Venat otherwise.

I'd say that the evidence for Lahabrea being dead is more metatextual, because it'd be really weird for them to bring him back after this works so well as a sendoff for him... but, uhm, I thought that about Elidibus back in 5.3., and then Anabeisos happened.

Lahabrea is obviously dead no question about it, but whether a soul remains of him to be reincarnated is another thing entirely because of the manner of his death. Pandemonium doesn't really shed light on that. I thought the glimmer that Themis sees in the aetherial sea right after Lahabrea's final departure was a sign that his soul exists in the afterlife, but who knows really.

EDIT: Actually, I think I'm understanding the topic wrong, for all these years I thought people thought Lahabrea was completely gone, soul evaporated and all, but in reality it was whether Lahabrea is actually alive in a way still because of his dubious '' death ''. I really need to learn to read better LMAO. (Though I suppose both discussions may be happening simultaneously).

Death in the XIV is such a hard topic.

Okay, since this has been rezzed (where is that filthy necromancer?!).....

If Bread is back once more, I only hope he's just vacationing on Costa del Sol or something. That's it, no more confrontations, cackling villainy, family woes or nothing else. Just a tan old shadow wizard in his trunks bathing his old bones in the sun. Maybe an Easter Egg whenever we deign to visit the Sol. Trunks!Bread, just laying there on the beach chair. He has nothing to say, can't be interacted with, he just lays there.

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

Right. But had Lahabrea's soul been in the aetherial sea or anywhere really, why didn't Athena do anything with it/about it if she was eager enough to use Themis' soul.

Either way it's weird that Lahabrea SPECIFICALLY would be super dead, an achievement only rewarded to Venat otherwise.

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I have the ugly feeling that Venat is not dead dead. Byregot said the first time we talked to him "In Hydaelyns absence, we are the Stars rightful rulers. It's will. That sounds like Venat will be back.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

That sounds like Venat will be back.

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In what way??

Venat is, by both admission from in-game sources and the developers themselves, dead. And she's not just dead, but more dead than anything else we've ever seen die, as apparently she's not reincarnating, either.

Which you can write a sympathetic and understandable explanation for, and I've seen several, but to my generally western mindset and outlook that still immediately read as 'wow, she got a REALLY raw deal'.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Venat is, by both admission from in-game sources and the developers themselves, dead. And she's not just dead, but more dead than anything else we've ever seen die, as apparently she's not reincarnating, either.

Which you can write a sympathetic and understandable explanation for, and I've seen several, but to my generally western mindset and outlook that still immediately read as 'wow, she got a REALLY raw deal'.

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It's why I'm torn on my Themis headcanons- having at least some of his soul survive to be reincarnated the second known Sahagin with the Echo amuses me and my sense of irony, but the elegant symmetry of his soul also being completely consumed by both primal aether consumption and then the Elpis time-teleport to the point that he shares the same more dead than dead completely free of the Wheel as his other elder primal counterpart pleases the part of me that likes balance. In that case, the light that he saw wasn't the light of rebirth but true oblivion (not the Endsinger's Egg) joining with Venat.

On the topic of reincarnation... If a soul reincarnates into twins does it split?

Depends on when the soul installation happens during the fertilization I guess.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

On the topic of reincarnation... If a soul reincarnates into twins does it split?

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Only if you want to go with a "twins are two people with a single soul" take, rather than simply making them two people.

Might be just me interpreting things but.. it seems Lahabrea is scarily aware of the type of person he will become later on, like he knows the Praetorium Lahabrea inside out. He almost talks like he seems to know the future in a sense, in that last cutscene we have with him in Elpis Pandaemonium. Then again he is wondering and specifically intrigued about himself and his future and even asks us out about this. Is he just coming to terms with the most likely outcome for him, which is duty above all even if things get dirty ? I think this was the aim of the developers here, but then again..

Yeah, he didn't inherit his Ascian memories, he's literally just very aware of the sorts of things he knows he would do, and doesn't try to deny it. We know what someone in that situation actually remembering their future-past actions would be like, that's Themis, and Lahabrea wasn't written like that.

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Originally Posted by SilversLyu

Might be just me interpreting things but.. it seems Lahabrea is scarily aware of the type of person he will become later on, like he knows the Praetorium Lahabrea inside out. He almost talks like he seems to know the future in a sense, in that last cutscene we have with him in Elpis Pandaemonium. Then again he is wondering and specifically intrigued about himself and his future and even asks us out about this. Is he just coming to terms with the most likely outcome for him, which is duty above all even if things get dirty ? I think this was the aim of the developers here, but then again..

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His past self's whole "we do not owe debts to one another" speil was odd, too, given the context that he's past!Lahabrea who doesn't know about his future actions and our future fight, far as we know. He was strangely hostile to us in that last convo in the past, imo. I can't decide if its just a consequence of him reabsorbing Hephaestus, or if its the writers forgetting that that Lahabrea doesn't know how much of a thorn in his side we're gonna be. Might be both. He definitely was meant to feel more dangerous in the end, imo.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yeah, he didn't inherit his Ascian memories, he's literally just very aware of the sorts of things he knows he would do, and doesn't try to deny it. We know what someone in that situation actually remembering their future-past actions would be like, that's Themis, and Lahabrea wasn't written like that.

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Reminded me of Emet finding out he ends up a megalomaniacal madman and his primary objection to it is our tone. Once he's given the circumstances, he can understand his actions and agrees with them. He just objects to our tone. its the fact that he may have "abandoned his duty" and wanted us to win in Amaurot that he ends up really bothered by. Lahabrea seems the same, but meaner.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Reminded me of Emet finding out he ends up a megalomaniacal madman and his primary objection to it is our tone. Once he's given the circumstances, he can understand his actions and agrees with them. He just objects to our tone. its the fact that he may have "abandoned his duty" and wanted us to win in Amaurot that he ends up really bothered by. Lahabrea seems the same, but meaner.

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I feel like Emet did that thing there where he wanted to argue with us, but just couldn't come up with anything. He either knows we're right, or (since at that point I think he's still thinking we're Azem's familiar) knowing that if we're lying we probably wouldn't have been made to know that.

But yeah, we see different levels of acceptance with the three people we tell; Emet's in some level of denial (probably mostly to himself), Venat recognizes that she'd do that if she had to but is in disbelief that things would come to that, and Lahabrea has no doubt in his mind.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I feel like Emet did that thing there where he wanted to argue with us, but just couldn't come up with anything. He either knows we're right, or (since at that point I think he's still thinking we're Azem's familiar) knowing that if we're lying we probably wouldn't have been made to know that.

But yeah, we see different levels of acceptance with the three people we tell; Emet's in some level of denial (probably mostly to himself), Venat recognizes that she'd do that if she had to but is in disbelief that things would come to that, and Lahabrea has no doubt in his mind.

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There's absolutely a reason that when the watcher asks me to pass judgement on Venat and the Ascians my response is "they were all monsters"