How will Endwalker make crafting more of a brain dead activity like Shadowbringers?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I don't feel it's greedy to want to be able to make lots of gil if you put a lot of time, patience and effort into something. Very few people want to eliminate competition, but at the same time you can't give the entire playerbase a slice of a single pie. It's not a viable design. It has devalued many items to a point that I doubt even the devs intended.

---

The misconception here is you aren't making the gil. Someone else is. Crafting, outside Leves, doesn't make gil. It consolidates it.

So when someone says "I just want to make a lot of gil", it's literally "I want other players to buy this for what I deem is a lot of gil." It isn't as much an issue these days for two reasons - The removal of the heavy time gates that Crafting originally had, and the substantially higher system gil being introduced over the year, but I doubt anyone is pining for the days of eld.

As a reminder, it basically took them until around 3.4 to fix the heavy imbalance in 2.0 that existed between Crafter and Battle classes, heavily favoring crafter, and they still can't quite get Gathering their share of the pie other than hour-1 markets. There was only one time when Gatherers commanded any clout in this system, and boy howdy, did the crafters complain.

Also, I wouldn't try and dress up SE increasing accessibility to self sufficiency as a bad thing. "You can't give everyone a slice of the pie" is absolutely a greedy statement, because the implication is that when no one else has any pie, you can sell it to them at the price you and the rest decide.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Also, I wouldn't try and dress up SE increasing accessibility to self sufficiency as a bad thing. "You can't give everyone a slice of the pie" is absolutely a greedy statement, because the implication is that when no one else has any pie, you can sell it to them at the price you and the rest decide.

---

I would probably add that no one is being given the slice. No one is automatically being handed a level 80 crafter with a full set of gear.

They've been given the option to take a slice if they want. Not all do and there's still gil to be made from those players.

There's also gil to be made from the players who take the slice then don't really eat it. My FC is filling up with crafters who do nothing but spam Coffee Biscuits. They aren't selling things they craft on the MB at all but all the leve income has got them buying from it more than they used to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

There's also gil to be made from the players who take the slice then don't really eat it. My FC is filling up with crafters who do nothing but spam Coffee Biscuits. They aren't selling things they craft on the MB at all but all the leve income has got them buying from it more than they used to.

---

Who would have thought that the First's greatest contribution was coffee biscuits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It depends. High end crafters rarely wanted exclusivity which is why there were theorycraft threads and many put countless hours into making guides, sharing macros and answering questions. They wanted it to be an activity that was satisfying to reach the high end, but that anyone could join in if they liked crafting.

There are also benefits to having tiers of crafters, such as the maxed pentamelded crafters, the budget endgame crafters, the crafters who just hit 80, the crafters in the leveling process and so on because it creates different markets. Gear and furniture of all levels becomes useful and worth making. Currently a combination of crafting being so easy that everyone has a max geared lv80, and retainers churning out crafted items right up to and including current expansion, means there are far less viable markets while competition in those limited markets has skyrocketed. In past expansions even the little guy could make far more gil than nowadays.

I don't feel it's greedy to want to be able to make lots of gil if you put a lot of time, patience and effort into something. Very few people want to eliminate competition, but at the same time you can't give the entire playerbase a slice of a single pie. It's not a viable design. It has devalued many items to a point that I doubt even the devs intended.

---

No there is no dependability about it. Greed by definition is an intense and or selfish desire for wealth. If you desire wealth then by textbook definition you're greedy, just as the casual is just as greedy for wanting everything handed on a silver platter as a cost-cutting measure. There's no depends here. If you're going to call a casual wanting accessible crafting as being greedy, then be prepared to be called greedy yourself. simple as that, really. Regardless of the effort or lack thereof you put into it, it's still greed.


That being said I don't disagree with any of this, in the same vein I never really even called these points out. It's just a simple fact of the matter this has been the case since 4.05. The little guy can still make plenty of Gil if they put the effort in the endeavor, but the state from my experience was that this situation was just as bad in Stormblood with the only difference being how more widespread botting is now. But once again I chalk this up more to the simple fact of the matter that Square Enix's stance on the matter has been akin to simply letting them run amock consequences largely be damned. Bots are more developed now than they ever were, most likely. They can do expert, they certainly would have no issue whatsoever in doing the crafts incorporated in any other expansion.

Simplification of crafting aside, we're dealing with 2 entirely different situations. Teamcraft has become more widely adopted and wasn't present in the previous expansions. It didn't exist for Heavensward, at all, and in fact wasn't even adopted until around 4.1~ So we had a very limited scope of things that people could utilize and would often require verification from other people to validate the stats anyway since it wasn't accurate, not to mention stuff such as the in-game trial synthesis. so it is easier for anyone to create rotations with nigh on pinpoint accuracy now. So what is available to us now, and the significance of how accurate they are; play a significant part in the collaboration or lack thereof. There's just too much available to us now really requires any collaboration or significant theorycrafting. It's really apples and oranges regardless of the angle you take with comparing anything. Forums aside, I can at least tell you a significant amount of collaboration is still present on Balance discord.

It is still greed, really, at least by definition. The only difference is, is the effort you've put in or other people have done so, makes it as though it is your 'right' to have such things. Which sure, it is your right. But it's still greedy.

If we want to do the biggest favor to our system then they should be directing more attention into being more proactive with bots. It's quite clear given the lacking dimensions of crafting there's only a certain level you can approach with obfuscation. Given that it is apparent bots can more than likely do experts, it just stands to gain that this would be more of a detriment and deterrent to players. Bots don't care for difficulty or obfuscation, nor do they care for time and anything that comes as a product of that. Players however care for this. So you really ought to be directing all this towards the management of the botting situation as opposed to anything else. Then in time, they look towards the state of the system itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurhz

No there is no dependability about it. Greed by definition is an intense and or selfish desire for wealth. If you desire wealth then by textbook definition you're greedy, just as the casual is just as greedy for wanting everything handed on a silver platter as a cost-cutting measure.

---

In which case the majority of players in the game are greedy by definition? I mean, who doesn't want gil, currency, rare items, ect. I suppose that's a fair way of looking at it. This type of greed is different to a real life selfish hoarding of wealth though, given currency isn't limited, every player has the tools available to acquire that wealth and the wealthy are often willing to guide and help them. It's just that it's often thrown out as a negative quality against the wealthy players, while I feel the desire to acquire anything special, be it huge amounts of gil, accomplishments or rare items for personal satisfaction is quite natural in a MMO. Greed is viewed as a negative quality, but at the same time it would never work to just give everyone everything.

I agree with everything you said though. Bots are a major issue, perhaps the biggest issue nowadays. They've opened the floodgates and both made it accessible to build one to 80 fast and demonstrated they have no power over them. It's hard to know if they even can crack down on them. Teamcraft is also true, along with several discords, but Experts did prove there's still the potential for crafts that invite theorycraft and discussion.

For me personally, what I want is something worthwhile to do with crafting. I just liked that it took time in the past, yet was satisfying to reach your goals simply because it kept me occupied. Experts didn't scratch that itch, because spamming the same recipe hundreds, maybe thousands of times for a mediocre reward just wasn't fun or satisfying. At least leveling and max-gearing used to have a sort of journey to it, but nowadays I'm fully max pentamelded within the first 3 days of a new patch. After that it's just spam the same expert a thousand times or sell endgame gear for peanuts due to bots (yes, that is greed, but I'd be fine competing with regular players even at lowered prices as long as the time feels worth it, because all I'm looking for is something worthwhile to do with my geared crafter).

So I suppose the question should be. What could Enix do with crafting or how could they alter their current systems, that could keep crafters happily occupied long-term even at endgame? Interested to hear others thoughts.

Macro's: Crafting macro's existed into 2.0 for High end crafts. Just not as effective but effective enough they worth using.
Knowledge: Its all over the internet now,websites,discords,novice network,forums.

The latter is the Reaper of difficult crafting and you are powerless to kill it. I am on the balance discord one of the biggest if not the biggest crafting discord for FF14. Its like a holy grail for crafting information,stats,rotations,etc. Whats the point of making crafting harder when so many resources exist that help players spit,slap,stomp and laugh in the face of difficulty.As for rewards while I never did experts and barely touched skytools, I agree the rewards did not equal the effort put forth.

The crafting community is its own worst enemy when you think about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

snip

---

Sure we can go with that logic. I just took issue with you calling the greed card for a subset of players that want easier or more accessible crafting when the exact same can be attributed to someone that desires more difficult and prolonged crafting. It's just 2 sides of the same coin. Ultimately, I felt that it was just hypocritical and added nothing of little value to the discussion. There's a genuine reason for both, and it just seems like the powers that be decided that more accessible and easier crafting is healthier for the game.

I just take a serious issue with people that honestly think obfuscating the system, rotations, or abilities is actually going to just completely solve all their issues from rampant botting. When the fact remains that it would probably have very little impact. They can do experts, they don't tire from them, they have little concept of time or cost. Ultimately it's just something that would punish the players more than anything else. Unfortunately, bots just generally get more complex and sophisticated with time.

Yes, there is much more widespread communication. I would stand to argue that if such things of Teamcraft did not exist, or a centralized hub of resources such as Balance, then a lot more people would find crafting a hell of a lot more difficult. Even now. Ease of it is largely facilitated by how organized the community is, both from a communication and resource perspective. Anything that lends to uncertainty will also lead to an influx of communication and collaboration between players to solve the puzzle.

It's not a very widespread outlook mine. But you won't make crafting hard, all you will ever do is invite uncertainty/RNG to it. Beyond a certain point, it is just adding layers of RNG. Then at a certain point, your skill matters a whole lot less than the simple fact of RNG, and when you reach the point wherein RNG becomes a greater determining factor of your success than your actual skill then this is where issues come in. This is quite possibly the biggest flaw I find in crafting in this game; you reach that point very quickly. We could argue for something such as Experts with conditions and such that you need to handle the RNG. But even with experts. RNG leaning one way or another has a greater influence on your success than your skill itself. This really just takes into account that you have a rudimentary understanding of crafting itself.

Whether it's good or not though is entirely underpinned by how proactive you are within the system itself. If you avidly engage in it or not. The more you engage and the more knowledgeable you are within crafting, the easier you find it becomes. Conversely, you look at a new player, now you imagine each expansion being as difficult as either ARR or HW. Asking players do 80 levels before they even get to the endgame with each expansion being just as monotonous as the last. I guarantee you that the vast majority of players complaining about crafting, complaining about the simplicity, would very quickly turn their sights to the other side of the argument. Being up to snuff, and relevant is something far, far too many people take for granted. - When I speak I'm not trying to think of myself but rather newer players at large. I long conceded to the fact that Square Enix would never meet my expectations within crafting. For as renowned as it is for being its own separate flushed out and complex system, which sure, it is. But it's still very flat and 'one-dimensional'


If I were to personally look towards how I think they should solve it, I would say they should look more in the direction of trying to make stats something that has more meaning, or some scaling factor. Now I don't mean to say that this isn't already present, because it quite clearly is. But I think something that tied your stats to the success rate of your abilities would make for a nice change of direction I think. Especially when you consider it with respect to Experts, as it adds another layer of complexity beyond cap CP, then deck out control, for the most part.

I do have quite a bit more to say on the matter, but I won't quite yet unless you wish to read.

Make the crafter sets above the base max level one market prohibited. Make the final crafter set one where every piece is an expert-level craft, but with bonuses on expert recipes, and add a bunch of cool cosmetic stuff as expert recipes that are extremely hard without that gear, but fairly doable with it.

They don't have to make it a nightmare to level, but they can add exclusivity which is what is currently missing. Having something to strive for if you want to do crafting is what exclusivity provides. Everyone gets crafters to 80 and then they're like "ok, I'm done with that" because realistically, they are. Pentamelded gear doesn't really do anything for you unless you want to compete with bots and sell gear for ~50k a piece, and expert recipes are basically not worth doing at all.

They should also replace all the class quests with ones like SB.

I doubt they'll do anything like that though, if anything I suspect specialists will be removed and we'll get some new skills that will make end game crafting even easier to macro.

Macro= Runs a list of commands. <---This is all a macro does period.
You are under no obiligation to use macro's.
Macro's have been used on high end crafts since 2.0.

Things a macro does not do!!!
-Does not alter the difficulty of a craft
-Does not change how successful a rotation is.
-Does not promise or ensure %100 hq on every craft.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Plastics

Make the crafter sets above the base max level one market prohibited. Make the final crafter set one where every piece is an expert-level craft, but with bonuses on expert recipes, and add a bunch of cool cosmetic stuff as expert recipes that are extremely hard without that gear, but fairly doable with it.

They don't have to make it a nightmare to level, but they can add exclusivity which is what is currently missing. Having something to strive for if you want to do crafting is what exclusivity provides. Everyone gets crafters to 80 and then they're like "ok, I'm done with that" because realistically, they are. Pentamelded gear doesn't really do anything for you unless you want to compete with bots and sell gear for ~50k a piece, and expert recipes are basically not worth doing at all.

They should also replace all the class quests with ones like SB.

I doubt they'll do anything like that though, if anything I suspect specialists will be removed and we'll get some new skills that will make end game crafting even easier to macro.

---

Nothing you said would be difficult or extremely time consuming so I don't know what this would change. It really wouldn't change anything.

Step 1. Level to 80
Step 2. Complete Custom Deliveries and Leve Quests for Scrip Gear
Step 3. Craft a set of crafter gear and pentameld it
Step 4. Craft this final set that you mentioned that's market prohibited.

It would not be anymore difficult than that.

What you're describing seems a lot like the Skysteel tools which are already in the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nabril

Nothing you said would be difficult or extremely time consuming so I don't know what this would change. It really wouldn't change anything.

Step 1. Level to 80
Step 2. Complete Custom Deliveries and Leve Quests for Scrip Gear
Step 3. Craft a set of crafter gear and pentameld it
Step 4. Craft this final set that you mentioned that's market prohibited.

It would not be anymore difficult than that.

What you're describing seems a lot like the Skysteel tools which are already in the game.

---

Step 4 would be an obstacle for any crafter that relies on macros created by others since Plastics specified Expert. It would just need to be Resplendent Expert difficulty instead of Skybuilder.

Resplendent itself failed because they chose an excessively punishing grind and made the reward just another shiny tool we weren't going to use. The process wasn't fun, the reward was lackluster - who was going to bother unless all they wanted was bragging rights for something everyone else felt was a waste of time?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nabril

Nothing you said would be difficult or extremely time consuming so I don't know what this would change. It really wouldn't change anything.

Step 1. Level to 80
Step 2. Complete Custom Deliveries and Leve Quests for Scrip Gear
Step 3. Craft a set of crafter gear and pentameld it
Step 4. Craft this final set that you mentioned that's market prohibited.

It would not be anymore difficult than that.

What you're describing seems a lot like the Skysteel tools which are already in the game.

---

Every patch you'd need to craft your own gear which provides a barrier. Right now you can buy a set and do some basic melds and then start flooding the market. To make a comparison to combat content, few (if any?) people are going to clear savage in lightly melded crafted gear. People who level them up late in the expansion would have to use scrip gear as a catch up.

As for Skysteel, they provide no benefit. They're basically equivalent to Aesthete's, but much harder to make than Aesthete's. Same with Resplendent. That's the issue -- they're not worth doing, except as glam, and you can do that in a later expansion. That's why having crafts for things people want be hard experts that are made easier with the expert crafted set, in addition to glam, would provide an actual reason to do them. It would also be there for people who want to compete in whatever expert competition they're going to replace Ishgard with.

Hardcore crafter's: Screw Casual crafter's they deserve no end game
Casual crafter's: Screw hardcore crafter's they deserve no end game

This all I see from this community. Nothing but selfishness and greed driving everyone.

To hardcore:
Not everyone likes difficult crafts.
Not everyone is interested in making gil.
Not all end game crafting needs to a be a brain melting experience.

To Casual:
There are players who like difficult crafts.
There are players who like making millions of gil off crafting.
Not all end game crafting needs to be a snooze fest.

Tired of thinking this community can find any middle ground. Is the idea of both sides having a end game of their own that Scary and insulting to both sides?:confused:
Thread Cammie made a year ago it was put forth why not have master recipes aimed at the general player base with Experts recipes being hard and full of stuff people would want but would not really be need to be a successful crafter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

To hardcore:
Not everyone likes difficult crafts.
Not everyone is interested in making gil.
Not all end game crafting needs to a be a brain melting experience.

To Casual:
There are players who like difficult crafts.
There are players who like making millions of gil off crafting.
Not all end game crafting needs to be a snooze fest.

---

Well said! It would be great to see some nosebleed-high-end gear available via crafting that actually takes a lot of thought, consideration, and preparation. Something like the top 5.0% of recipes or such. The issue, I believe, is balance and value to the community as a whole; if the best or near-best PVE gear in the game at any given time is only available via crafting, that would upset the high-end PVErs. Having such high-end items requiring mats obtainable only in said super-high-end content would definitely provide challenge/prestige to those crafting them, but may still piss off the people who earned the materials since they don't get the shiny item right away. I can't blame them for this, as much as I wish it weren't the case.

Aside from that, let we casuals/dabblers have our mindless mass market material making macros. Sometimes it's fun to make some nice furniture without having to think about hitting the marks just right to get a full progress bar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

What made crafting fun to each of us in the first place?
What changes would make it fun again for those who no longer find it fun?
Are expectations unrealistic because the player base is growing in size? More players naturally leads to more getting into the content along with more competition.

---

1. Originally it was the ability to make and repair 100% of my own gear when leveling. After that it was making enough Gil to buy a house, then make everything I could to decorate it with buying as little as possible. After that it was realizing that I'm not an endgame raider and gathering/crafting is an enjoyable way to spend time after finishing story arcs.

Yes, making money was always part of that, without question. It's the rare individual that gets into gathering and/or crafting in a more than passing fashion without one of their goals being making money. By its nature, gathering and crafting are about providing products to people which normally means taking part of an economy.

2. What changes would make it fun again? I got tired of the whole timed-node thing in HW into early SB and took a break from the game because of it. I'm not sure if they've actually changed things or if it's just my perception, but whatever it is that they changed has made gathering and making Collectibles enjoyable again. Do I sometimes rue the fact that crafting is more accessible now than it once was? Sure, it's nice to be a part of a smaller community of suppliers that makes more money for our effort. I don't begrudge the people who've gotten into crafting because of the changes though, they're entitled to enjoying the game they pay for as much as the rest of us.

What I'd LOVE to see changed is retainers not bringing back random high-value items that used to be craftable only. This, more than anything, is what I believe to be the cause of declining market prices. With tens of players getting things from their retainers that have a material cost in the tens of thousands and selling them for thousands because their "free" has really imbalanced thing.

As you've said before, they need to add high-value and/or uncommon items that are, and always will be, obtainable *only through crafting*. Give us the ability to make more mounts, Triple Triad cards, pets, awesome furnishings, and UPGRADE RAID GEAR that require increasing levels of gear/melding and attention when crafting (aka, not macro-able) so we have skills that are valuable to every player at all levels of the game.

3. I don't think our collective expectations are unreasonable. We do have to adjust to the increased competition and dropping prices, but we'll always be able to have fun crafting and will usually make money off it. That may require gathering and processing our own materials rather than buying stuff of the MB, but so be it if that's the case.

As a new crafter to be, do we know anything yet about changes to be made to crafting in the three (or four) campaigns? I mean, I'm wondering now if I should wait to even get started crafting in ARR. Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starkman

As a new crafter to be, do we know anything yet about changes to be made to crafting in the three (or four) campaigns? I mean, I'm wondering now if I should wait to even get started crafting in ARR. Thanks.

---

They haven't given us specifics about crafting changes yet (those will be discussed in the November Live Letter) though they probably would have at least briefly mentioned any major changes in the last Live Letter if there were going to be any. I expect basic leveling and recipe acquisition to remain the same as it is now.

If you're hoping they're going to add crafting boost potions to Mogstation, or break up crafting up like WoW recently did, it's highly unlikely.

It's better to start now if you have the time available and plan to craft for profit. That way you'll have everything to 80 so you only have to worry about leveling 81-90 once Endwalker is released.

Hey, thanks for the reply. No, wasn't going for any boosts, just gp info. Thanks again.

Honestly, what i would prefer for my crafting endgame wishlist would be to remove RNG element on skills entirely (and make the cost something to match). Next would be to start introducing additional effects during crafting aside from the good/excellent/poor (and just remove the expert crafter's stuff, because that's a dumb style of RNG).

What i mean is, just as examples...
At white quality crafts.. keep it to just the good/excellent/poor
at green quality crafts.. introduce a status that makes touches and synthesis ignore any modifiers (like inner quiet and veneration,etc), and doesn't go away until you purge it with an action (and maybe prevents it for minimum 8 steps or something)
at higher quality crafts.. introduce a new status, but this one makes your CP costs double, and like the previous, doesn't go away until you purge it
at excellent quality crafts.. introduce a final one that makes your abilities cost double durability, and like the previous, needs to be purged.

Bottom line for me is, if there's going to be RNG, don't make it a necessity that i get the right RNG when i need it; but rather, give me RNG in the form of obstacles that i have to deal with to get past. It'd also make the macros start becoming untenable in the higher levels. Is it perfect? No, but nothing ever will be.. but i think it'd make higher end crafts more of a rarity on the market and increase the worth of the items that people do craft, but it wouldn't make crafting an impossible field for players to get into.