Are classes needed? POLL

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

Just based on your posts, do neither of you see how great it is that there are multiple strategies for taking things down?

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actually my blm dies to hellfire if someone doesn't cast stoneskin on me, so I don't know what he's talking about <_>

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

Just based on your posts, do neither of you see how great it is that there are multiple strategies for taking things down?

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oh yes, that's why i am sure we both voted to keep the classes in. i was just pointing out that thm is not needed to complete it. it's one where there is a choice on which way people want to complete it. people just seem to think that sentinel is still needed for that fight and it is not the case at all.

that was the only reason for pointing out an alternative method.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

actually my blm dies to hellfire if someone doesn't cast stoneskin on me, so I don't know what he's talking about <_>

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if you take down all 4 nails you take around 650 damage from hellfire with sanguine rite only. after hellfire goes off use your second wind to recover almost 600 of that damage back. that takes you from full hp to around 60 hp from full after the ability.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

but when compared to blm you can take down all 4 nails easily and with sanguine rite + second wind you are still full health after hellfire even on blm. after hellfire on blm i am usually around 60 hp from completely full when i go back in to attack. that is using only blm skills and if doing the content that way with decent dps you have no need for the other defensive abilities.

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As a WHM, I can tell you, one of the DDs is going to die from stepping on a crack. It will be the BRD most likely. I'm sure as shit not leaving my little hidy-hole to come raise the dumbass "deeps" that couldn't think to move out of the way, that's a good way to cause a wipe. So who's going to raise when the BRD is dead or on Raise cooldown?

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Originally Posted by Zyph

As a WHM, I can tell you, one of the DDs is going to die from stepping on a crack. It will be the BRD most likely. I'm sure as shit not leaving my little hidy-hole to come raise the dumbass "deeps" that couldn't think to move out of the way, that's a good way to cause a wipe. So who's going to raise when the BRD is dead or on Raise cooldown?

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i didn't mention a brd being in the party at all actually.

what we usually do is the whm's do not raise unless it's after hellfire and during his triple dash. very rarely do we have anyone die to cracks anymore, but still may lose one every now and then. sanguine rite from a brd is useless for the mages though as it's defensive ability that comes from it only comes when using it as a thm or blm.

we just simply take down the nails and sanguine rite on ourselves before hellfire and if it's played correctly you will still have stoneskin and protect from the start of the fight. usually the fight from start to finish with blm's lasts less than 6-7 min total and hellfire is around 3 min in.

edit: i am not saying that the other way is wrong, but that it's not required. both options is completely acceptable and work just as well as the other. was just pointing out that alternative does work just as well.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

Just based on your posts, do neither of you see how great it is that there are multiple strategies for taking things down?

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Ffs 1000x this. Seriously. What is up with ppl hating anything that gives them more than one option. Are you all incapable of making good choices without someone telling you what the best choice is? Do you all lack the testicular fortitude and self-confidence to make a choice without being forced into one? Answer me dammit!

This job/class thing is stupid. And by stupid I mean the argument, not the fact that jobs/classes exist. The argument is stupid because it makes no damn sense. "Get rid of classes because...because because..." because why exactly? "Classes are redundant!" you say, but I vehemently disagree. Classes have access to a greater variety of abilities, thus they are different and fulfill different roles.

Jobs are specific. They can only do one thing. Now because jobs are in their infancy, they don't seem too different from classes, but they are quite different. GLA has access to diff abilities than PLD, arc than brd, war than mrd (not that this makes a big difference), and drg than lnc. Its self-sufficiency vs specialization. Jobs lock you in a really defined role, classes allow you to do your role while still remaining pretty flexible. The difference between these two concepts is huge, and you'd have to be a mentally challenged orc to not see it.


They coexist as a way to give us options. You now can choose how you want to play. If you never want to touch a job ever you do not have to. Screw playing BRD, you say, you want to do crazy dps with arc by spamming invigorate, keen flurries, etc etc. Screw PLD, you say, i'll keep GLA with all my taunts, provokes, prism cures, yadda yadda. In other words, jobs are not *derp* required. They are just an option. You never have to play a job ever, unless the group requires a really really specific role where you do one thing and nothing else. To make life easy on us, this is why SE did not force us to level jobs.


Now that we understand we can all stfu and stop this silly, nonsensical, ill-contrived, absurd argument.

What I think they need to do is just make classes be able to equip a variety of weapons that are semi-related to the class, and have WS's swap according to the variety of weapon.
Then all that's left is to keep Jobs strictly weapon-locked, for role fulfillment.
For example, a Gladiator un-equips his shield (which is currently pointless to do. D:), maybe gains an attack buff, loses all of his shield skills, and in replace gets DD focused WS's, or maybe equips a dagger and gains DPS WS's.
This would give variety to classes while opening up possibilities of new jobs, and also allowing jobs to be very different from classes.
All in all, classes have the ability to be very robust, and should stay solely because of the potential they could bring with a few changes. I often feel the reason classes are here is lost on some people, originally they where meant to be more of a "design your own class" feel, which is what they should expand upon. Make classes be almost limitless, able to overcome a variety of situations, yet hampered in terms of role definition, giving better stats to jobs for obvious reasons.

TL;DR: Classes should be more "Jack of all trades" with lower stats than Jobs.
Jobs should be tailored for a more structured play style.
Also, speaking of classes and jobs + polls, didn't yoshi say that the battle poll results would be revealed with the patch notes or am I mistaken?

I'd rather more dynamic and unique jobs, the class system is far more restricting than people seem to think it is. I personally think it stifles being creative with jobs due to the requirement that the jobs be tied to their origin classes.

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Originally Posted by RockVolnutt

What I think they need to do is just make classes be able to equip a variety of weapons that are semi-related to the class, and have WS's swap according to the variety of weapon.
Then all that's left is to keep Jobs strictly weapon-locked, for role fulfillment.
For example, a Gladiator un-equips his shield (which is currently pointless to do. D:), maybe gains an attack buff, loses all of his shield skills, and in replace gets DD focused WS's, or maybe equips a dagger and gains DPS WS's.
This would give variety to classes while opening up possibilities of new jobs, and also allowing jobs to be very different from classes.
All in all, classes have the ability to be very robust, and should stay solely because of the potential they could bring with a few changes. I often feel the reason classes are here is lost on some people, originally they where meant to be more of a "design your own class" feel, which is what they should expand upon. Make classes be almost limitless, able to overcome a variety of situations, yet hampered in terms of role definition, giving better stats to jobs for obvious reasons.

TL;DR: Classes should be more "Jack of all trades" with lower stats than Jobs.
Jobs should be tailored for a more structured play style.
Also, speaking of classes and jobs + polls, didn't yoshi say that the battle poll results would be revealed with the patch notes or am I mistaken?

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ya know this is what i originally thought classes and jobs would be.

thm for example would have been nuke/dot's and would have 2 jobs that were specializations of each. 1 nuking job and 1 dot job.

cnj could have been healer/enfeebles and would have 2 jobs that is specialized in.

so forth and so on. it was kind of suprising that they made the classes a base version of only 1 job at this point so it only had 1 way it could go off the base class. i understand it can be expanded upon in the future, but it just seems they limited the classes too far which kept them from having any usage outside of solo. if each class had 2 base versions where it could specialize 2 different ways the base versions may have been more sought after until they put the second jobs in for each class.

I'm sorry but I havn't needed to use a single class for any content since the advent of Jobs. I know they can be used for speed runs in Cutter's or Aurum Vale (however, only one or two people in the party need to be a class), which is a gimmick.

When I solo, I use either BLM (nuke/sleep combo) or Warrior (steel cyclone/rampage).....I absolutely see no compelling reason to have classes. It's a hassle carrying 17 sets of gear if you have all jobs to 50. The only reason people used Gladiators is because Paladins are lacking in tanking right now and can't kite as well. However, once pally gets adjusted (very soon) there's little to no reason to use Gladiators.

I know people like classes maybe for nostalgia sake, or variety sake... but there are no COMPELLING reasons to have them. The one in a million opportunities do not justify the headache of maintaining separate gear sets, separate macros, etc etc.

My 2 cents.

PS - I have no idea what the solution would be.

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Originally Posted by Zell

I'm sorry but I havn't needed to use a single class for any content since the advent of Jobs. I know they can be used for speed runs in Cutter's or Aurum Vale (however, only one or two people in the party need to be a class), which is a gimmick.

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Dear sir you seem confused, allow me to point you to wisdom

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

They coexist as a way to give us options. You now can choose how you want to play. If you never want to touch a job ever you do not have to. Screw playing BRD, you say, you want to do crazy dps with arc by spamming invigorate, keen flurries, etc etc. Screw PLD, you say, i'll keep GLA with all my taunts, provokes, prism cures, yadda yadda. In other words, jobs are not *derp* required. They are just an option. You never have to play a job ever, unless the group requires a really really specific role where you do one thing and nothing else. To make life easy on us, this is why SE did not force us to level jobs.

Now that we understand we can all stfu and stop this silly, nonsensical, ill-contrived, absurd argument.

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An option is an option. By the same token I can say I never felt like I had to use jobs either. So by your logic, to hell with classes! Let's get rid of jobs!! Don't need em, trash em!

You see how absurd this sounds right?

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Originally Posted by Zell

I'm sorry but I havn't needed to use a single class for any content since the advent of Jobs. I know they can be used for speed runs in Cutter's or Aurum Vale (however, only one or two people in the party need to be a class), which is a gimmick.

When I solo, I use either BLM (nuke/sleep combo) or Warrior (steel cyclone/rampage).....I absolutely see no compelling reason to have classes. It's a hassle carrying 17 sets of gear if you have all jobs to 50. The only reason people used Gladiators is because Paladins are lacking in tanking right now and can't kite as well. However, once pally gets adjusted (very soon) there's little to no reason to use Gladiators.

I know people like classes maybe for nostalgia sake, or variety sake... but there are no COMPELLING reasons to have them. The one in a million opportunities do not justify the headache of maintaining separate gear sets, separate macros, etc etc.

My 2 cents.

PS - I have no idea what the solution would be.

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it's the choice that people want and that's why keeping classes is almost 2-1 at this point. you prefer to solo with blm and i prefer to solo with my thm. i like my extra defensive abilities, buffs, and heals. it's not saying you are wrong for wanting to solo with blm, but we're not here saying remove blm. we're saying don't remove the choice of which to use.

i do agree with you war is better than mrd and whm is better than cnj for solo, but i think the majority are on the side that appreciates having the choice on which to use.

I voted against classes for one reason mainly. The whole class = weapon system is a little too restrictive. It means that if they want anything to use a new weapon, it must first be added in as a class. Not only that but then jobs, by extension, must use the weapon of their class. Sure they could make weapon types exclusive to jobs but with how the transition works it would be clunky at best. For example:

Let's say Warrior gets Greatswords (just for the sake of the example). Because Marauder cannot use them, equipping it would go as follows:

1. Equip Axe to switch to MRD.
2. Equip Job Stone to switch to Warrior.
3. Equip Greatsword once on Warrior.

Unless of course they made Greatsword a class and Warrior as one of its job options. That would open more options for the jobs themselves, being based off of different classes. It's just a bit of a mess honestly though.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

I voted against classes for one reason mainly. The whole class = weapon system is a little too restrictive. It means that if they want anything to use a new weapon, it must first be added in as a class. Not only that but then jobs, by extension, must use the weapon of their class. Sure they could make weapon types exclusive to jobs but with how the transition works it would be clunky at best. For example:

Let's say Warrior gets Greatswords (just for the sake of the example). Because Marauder cannot use them, equipping it would go as follows:

1. Equip Axe to switch to MRD.
2. Equip Job Stone to switch to Warrior.
3. Equip Greatsword once on Warrior.

Unless of course they made Greatsword a class and Warrior as one of its job options. That would open more options for the jobs themselves, being based off of different classes. It's just a bit of a mess honestly though.

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but on the same token doesn't that give room for the classes to advance and pick up an alternate set of skills and abilities by allowing them to equip multiple weapons. if you want to go that route then we may just get rid of jobs and keep classes as they are. just let the classes equip different weapons and they could change their specialty.

i'm not advocating them doing that, but it's the same concept. the jobs are a specialization of the class. that's how they were put in game and the way they were intended.

Yoshi-P pretty much flat out told us that he and his team were making major battle system changes once and then never again. So, for better or worse, this is what we got. Classes aren't going anywhere and a poll isn't going to change that.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

actually my blm dies to hellfire if someone doesn't cast stoneskin on me, so I don't know what he's talking about <_>

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Really, are you not using sanguine rite and facing ifrit then ?

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Let's say Warrior gets Greatswords (just for the sake of the example). Because Marauder cannot use them, equipping it would go as follows:

1. Equip Axe to switch to MRD.
2. Equip Job Stone to switch to Warrior.
3. Equip Greatsword once on Warrior.

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I don't see why people are so locked into the thinking that a class can only equip one type of weapon.
SE has the ability to make it so classes can equip different weapons that are related to the class, which can bring about different job tree branchings, as I stated earlier in the thread.

It's not too different from your idea, only reverse really.
(from the same idea that MRD will get a greatsword)
1. Equip Greatsword to switch to MRD (possible change in some weaponskills/stats/traits upon changing class related-weapons)
2. Equip Job Stone to switch to Dark Knight (or whatever uses a GS)

This way, classes are relevant (mixed skills, personal class building, adaptable to many situations).
Multiple jobs can branch from one class without overhauling the armory system or having to release new classes (which they still will, so don't worry).
Literally all they would have to do is have the Greatsword have a Req. of MRD and DRK, and some skill editing for MRD (or whatever class has a variety of weapons, I.E. GLD with daggers, etc)

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Yoshi-P pretty much flat out told us that he and his team were making major battle system changes once and then never again. So, for better or worse, this is what we got. Classes aren't going anywhere and a poll isn't going to change that.

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Dude the battle system is something else lol.

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Originally Posted by Roj

Dude the battle system is something else lol.

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No it's not. Classes and jobs are the very cornerstone of the battle system. What you smoking?

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Originally Posted by Wynn

No it's not. Classes and jobs are the very cornerstone of the battle system. What you smoking?

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I wouldn't say that, there is a small bit of variation but your role doesn't change much going from THM and BLM in Ifrit for example.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

No it's not. Classes and jobs are the very cornerstone of the battle system. What you smoking?

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Woo-hoo there is a maintenance let battle commence!
The battle system is the "combat system" that underwent serveral major changes. Not the armoury system that has only had one real change, jobs. :P

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I wouldn't say that, there is a small bit of variation but your role doesn't change much going from THM and BLM in Ifrit for example.

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That might be true, but what constitutes the battle system and how effective it is are two different discussions. :P

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Originally Posted by Wynn

That might be true, but constitutes the battle system and how effective it is are two different discussions. :P

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Dude its NOT the battle system your deffinitions are off lol

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I wouldn't say that, there is a small bit of variation but your role doesn't change much going from THM and BLM in Ifrit for example.

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Ask yourself, is this because THM *cant* fulfill a different role, or is it because ppl insist on playing THM within a certain role. How ppl choose to play it has nothing to do with the potential a class has to do something different. Ppl are just stupid and narrow-minded when they say a class can only fulfill one role.

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Originally Posted by Roj

Dude its NOT the battle system your deffinitions are off lol

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Jobs and classes are apart of the battle system, that's like saying materia in FF 7 wasn't apart of the battle system...

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Originally Posted by Firon

Jobs and classes are apart of the battle system, that's like saying materia in FF 7 wasn't apart of the battle system...

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While I do agree with you, I think what Roj is trying to say is that Wynn was talking about the Armoury System and not the Battle System.
Regardless, both have gone through multiple reforms and Yoshi has stated that they won't be doing that again, because he wants the game to progress from this point on, and not risk throwing things out.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

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Ask yourself, is this because THM *cant* fulfill a different role, or is it because ppl insist on playing THM within a certain role. How ppl choose to play it has nothing to do with the potential a class has to do something different. Ppl are just stupid and narrow-minded when they say a class can only fulfill one role.

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agreed. there's a few things thm's can do that a blm cannot do in a party. a thm can keep up buffs, off heal the dd's, raise fallen party members, and throw nukes at the targeted mob. the thing is people just looks at them as they are only a nuker because that's what it's primary skills lead them to, but once you look into the cross class abilities it does have multiple things it can accomplish.

we can discuss how effective they are at those extra roles or if it's worth the decrease in dps to do them, but cannot discount the fact that the option is there for them.

Oh Firon you looked so much more handsome with ginger hair :P

The only downside i see in having Classes and jobs and every expanding lists of them plus their skills is the same problem Guild wars 1 ran into. Balancing X skill from one group to X skill from another can sometimes be hard to balance across a spectrum of many many skills. So far FF14 seems to have done a good job of this on the surface. But at times you can see the conflict.

Few run anything without the protect spell when leveling. To counter that your average lets say, Battleleve must be tuned to take this into account. Skills with TP use are probably tuned with Invigorate in mind. since most anyone whom uses a class with TP use loads Invigorate.

I like the Class and job system alot myself. I like having a relative swiss army knife with the class i want to play. and the specialization of the JOB system for when i need it. What always worries me with any game that loads up on skills that can be used by many classes is that your skills available will be watered down and generally unable to have great effects due to cross class skill use.

But i should propose some sort of solution. Though its one i'm not generally fond of i think SE's new GC "Enchantment" system comming for patch 1.22 is a good step. And that is keeping very base effects on the skills and adding and augmenting the power and effects of those skills on the gear only that class can use.

Personally i'd rather have them as an addition to whatever armor you choose (Especially since i also greatly support things like appearance tabs and customizable appearance) That way they can tune skill bonuses to the class meant to have them while still keeping cross class and base class skills relevant.

Despite my concerns over watered down skills or broken comination of skills i fully support Classes AND jobs co-existing and flourishing.

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Originally Posted by Roj

Oh Firon you looked so much more handsome with ginger hair :P

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Ginger >_>? what lol?

I neva eva use classes anymore!

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Originally Posted by Firon

Ginger >_>? what lol?

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Oh I'm sorry "strawberry blonde" how insensitive of me!

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Originally Posted by Viritess

The only downside i see in having Classes and jobs and every expanding lists of them plus their skills is the same problem Guild wars 1 ran into. Balancing X skill from one group to X skill from another can sometimes be hard to balance across a spectrum of many many skills. So far FF14 seems to have done a good job of this on the surface. But at times you can see the conflict.

Few run anything without the protect spell when leveling. To counter that your average lets say, Battleleve must be tuned to take this into account. Skills with TP use are probably tuned with Invigorate in mind. since most anyone whom uses a class with TP use loads Invigorate.

I like the Class and job system alot myself. I like having a relative swiss army knife with the class i want to play. and the specialization of the JOB system for when i need it. What always worries me with any game that loads up on skills that can be used by many classes is that your skills available will be watered down and generally unable to have great effects due to cross class skill use.

But i should propose some sort of solution. Though its one i'm not generally fond of i think SE's new GC "Enchantment" system comming for patch 1.22 is a good step. And that is keeping very base effects on the skills and adding and augmenting the power and effects of those skills on the gear only that class can use.

Personally i'd rather have them as an addition to whatever armor you choose (Especially since i also greatly support things like appearance tabs and customizable appearance) That way they can tune skill bonuses to the class meant to have them while still keeping cross class and base class skills relevant.

Despite my concerns over watered down skills or broken comination of skills i fully support Classes AND jobs co-existing and flourishing.

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Good points like someone else said they could make class only skills also. I would certainly use Cnj if it had an quake spell that could only be used on CNJ, that would boost cnj's soloing skills.

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Originally Posted by Roj

Oh I'm sorry "strawberry blonde" how insensitive of me!

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I'm so confused right now @.@

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Originally Posted by Firon

I'm so confused right now @.@

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I think they are trying to imply we are the same person because we agreed with each other. /tinfoilhat

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I think they are trying to imply we are the same person because we agreed with each other. /tinfoilhat

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No you weren't there that moonlight night in Bibki Bay, or were you hiding behind a rock you perv? lol

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Originally Posted by Roj

No you weren't there that moonlight night in Bibki Bay, or were you hiding behind a rock you perv? lol

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maaaaaybeeeee...

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Originally Posted by Zyph

As a WHM, I can tell you, one of the DDs is going to die from stepping on a crack. It will be the BRD most likely. I'm sure as shit not leaving my little hidy-hole to come raise the dumbass "deeps" that couldn't think to move out of the way, that's a good way to cause a wipe. So who's going to raise when the BRD is dead or on Raise cooldown?

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Hop over to my server we did a 3 brd run last night with no issues

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Originally Posted by Roj

No you weren't there that moonlight night in Bibki Bay, or were you hiding behind a rock you perv? lol

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What the hell?

I just hate the inventory stress this dual system presents.

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Originally Posted by Marcellus_Cassius

I just hate the inventory stress this dual system presents.

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Well now that won't be so much of a problem since you'll be able to store job gear in the armoire.