Tools they could add besides DPS meters... (For endgame)

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Originally Posted by Colt47

I just think that having more tools that actively assist in learning mechanics would be beneficial and avoid encouraging the elitism that kind of plagued WoW. DPS meters do have a place, but it's actually kind of narrow in the grand scheme of things.

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The problem with elitists and tryhards is that they are quite entitled and unironically expect everyone to perform on X level(Still remember seeing a tryhard whine about zurvan extreme p1 pools not being perfect, no, nobody died or had a problem, it simply wasnt his static level of coordination) and love to use DPS meters to blame people when in reality DPS is not even the problem but it is always the easy excuse, people who will focus on blaming dps when a dps check is failed or enrage happens often are quite wrong since the reason those things happened was because people failed mechanics therefore people werent alive to dps and/or had the rez debuff, those were the real reasons the dps check failed, not someone not being l33t optimal at all times.

It is really rare for everyone to do the mechanics well yet still fail the dps check when the game is so generous on its DPS requirements since there is quite a big gap between best performance and performance required to clear, even though certain tryhards expect 90 parses for content that requires 40 but that is also done because if you pretend the requirements is that high your achievement must be that high too right? This is completely a psychological problem with people whose self esteem depends on video games.

the idea that parser would promote toxicity is moot; the (extremely strict btw) ToS regarding bullying people over their damage wouldn't magically disappear.

in fact, in the case of an official SE damage meter, i'd imagine the ToS would be more strictly enforced lol. there wouldn't be anymore people bullying over damage more than there currently is (very few people are that dumb), and even then, those people would get bonked very fast.

it also shatters the illusion that XIV has a nice playerbase too; if FFXIV is truly all sugar and rainbows, why can't we have damage meters? it's almost like we're awful just like every other gaming community lol

There aren't really tools they can add that would teach you concepts for how you should play, because once they do they impede the development of their own hard content. They want us to have some difficulty learning the fights, because that's what makes them last. It's also what leads us to have satisfaction when we overcome/learn the mechanic.

A lot of raiders will never admit to it when called out like it's a bad thing, but they use third party tools beyond parsers to hold their hand like this in fights. The rationalization for it usually comes down to, "This mechanic would be unreasonable for me to perceive, so it's OK to use something that tells me when and where it's happening. It's not any different than human callouts." Neverminding the fact that human callouts are subject to time constraints and human error.

Anywho, more on track with the idea proposed in the OP: The idea of a death clip camera wouldn't be able to reliably tell you why you died. Even things like the ACT parser on FFLogs can't reliably do that. It's up to you to read the log and figure out the chain of events. Of course, having an entire time map of second by second, play by play of the fight also helps immensely.

As it stands, in the modern age, most computers and all of the consoles have the ability for you to record your gameplay. On PS4 you can record before you start or record up to the past hour after the fact. You just have to set it up, by default it's the last 15 minutes. Even if you don't upload it somewhere, you still have the ability to go watch the recording whenever you want.

Also, since this kinda thing eats up time, it would be something people have to do of their own initiative after the fight is over, because while there are times where you sit dead for a while, fights go on and people try to raise you. Even if people wanted to review their death, they'd then have to contend with the possibility of missing a raise and causing a wipe anyway.

Also, as far as Hall of the Advanced or Hall of Heroes or whatever nice sounding idea about high end Hall of the Novice goes... they won't ever make it mandatory. Hall of the Novice's only mandatory thing is going there to let them strong suggest that you learn from them.

For boss mechanics and how they work..good old dungeon guide listing the boss mechanics with explanation on what they do. WoW has it for dungeon and raid bosses its worked pretty well gives you a heads up on abilities.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

it also shatters the illusion that XIV has a nice playerbase too; if FFXIV is truly all sugar and rainbows, why can't we have damage meters? it's almost like we're awful just like every other gaming community lol

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The real reason why we don't have damage meters is because more than half of the community would rely on them to judge a player skill level.
Easy exemple, imagine 2 healers in savage, one is glare-mage and the other is a scholar praying for his dear life to keep the group alive. Obviously the glare mage would have higher DPS but that wouldn't qualify them as a better player.
Another, a Samurai is missing 1k but never dies from mechanics, perfect consistency and is not a cause of failure for others. On the other side you have a MNK with near-perfect DPS on every clear but that makes a clearing group wipe for hours.

In both cases, the better player isn't the one that deals higher damage.
When I started the game, I was like this aswell. But at a point, you have to realize it's a 8 people content.
Casuals will solely rely on damage meters and it will create toxicity, because it's the only feedback about performance they'll get.

Sometimes I wish they'd make clearing the target dummy for a particular fight required to actually queue for it...except tune the dummies so that they're actually doable in the minimum gear level because they've historically been overtuned.

It's not perfect (Especially for healers who need to balance their healing with damage while still resolving mechanics) but I think it would be better then nothing.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Then why are you replying to a thread about tools that can provide learning assistance?

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Colt just check there comment history. That will save you alot of trouble of understanding them. Trust me when i say that

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

The real reason why we don't have damage meters is because more than half of the community would rely on them to judge a player skill level.

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Pretty much, the problem is players, especially westerners that it seems dont really understand or care to understand what a damage meter actually says and instead use it as "let me check who is lowest so I can blame them" and "Omg they dont do as much dps as me, they are the problem" since they have that baffling expectation that everyone should be on their level in a random pug or even worse inflate the requirements similarly to how tryhards in WoW demand 226 ilvl for content that needs 200ilvl and rewards 213 gear.

Actually come to think of it, there would be a form of damage meter that could be helpful and would be disliked by those people, a damage meter without numbers but with colors

Let's say the boss is at 60% health, that means 40% of its health is missing(let's say that number is 400), we have 4 DPS, 2 tanks and 2 healers, now let's say in a balanced team for example 20% of that damage done would be expected to come from a dps so that would be 80, if the dps has achieved more than 80 dps at that time then "dps meter" would show a green symbol next to their name meaning they passed the minimum required dps, if not a red one but more importantly if that person died and its below 80 it would be grey instead showing that the issue was a mechanic failure instead of personal DPS, and mechanic failures are far more complex of an issue since it could have not even been their fault at times if someone else killed them, thus grey would remind everyone that mechanical performance is the main problem, not "dps". (Obviously you would need to add a projection for time and max boss health so in case someone is carrying a lot in dps he doesnt cause people to go into red with the above math)

This kind of dps meter would absolutely destroy the delusion many tryhards have over dps checks and enrages because it would show that dps is not really what is causing problems, it is people failing mechanics, which is far more common especially in the western uptime obsessed strats since I hear the Japanese raiding scene is better because they focus on doing the encounter well rather than parse.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

The problem with elitists and tryhards is that they are quite entitled and unironically expect everyone to perform on X level(Still remember seeing a tryhard whine about zurvan extreme p1 pools not being perfect, no, nobody died or had a problem, it simply wasnt his static level of coordination) and love to use DPS meters to blame people when in reality DPS is not even the problem but it is always the easy excuse, people who will focus on blaming dps when a dps check is failed or enrage happens often are quite wrong since the reason those things happened was because people failed mechanics therefore people werent alive to dps and/or had the rez debuff, those were the real reasons the dps check failed, not someone not being l33t optimal at all times.

It is really rare for everyone to do the mechanics well yet still fail the dps check when the game is so generous on its DPS requirements since there is quite a big gap between best performance and performance required to clear, even though certain tryhards expect 90 parses for content that requires 40 but that is also done because if you pretend the requirements is that high your achievement must be that high too right? This is completely a psychological problem with people whose self esteem depends on video games.

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The whole reason "Skip Soar or disband" became a meme is basically it was laughably easy to skip. It literally required a basic opener because Zurvan does nothing. There aren't any mechanics to worry about by that point in the fight. If you understood the basic functions of your job, you'd skip Soar. Therefore, groups unable to skip weren't able to perform at that minimal a level. It isn't elitism to expect reasonable levels of damage in harder content. And no, barely meeting enrage isn't "reasonable" unless its the first week or learning party that only just reached said enrage.

You keep citing "tryhards" and "elitists" yet seemingly disregard players like a BLM dealing 15k in E11S. But it's okay because the group can still clear, right? Even if upwards seven other players have to perform at a higher level simply to compensate for someone who doesn't know what they're doing. That is what frustrates players. People rarely expect top tier numbers in pugs unless its a parse run. They do, however, hope for decent numbers like I mentioned above. Not only because it leads to faster kills but also potentially removes added risk.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

it would show that dps is not really what is causing problems, it is people failing mechanics

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I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I had to see and learn that some people are not consistent enough and failing a mechanic either results in death or a damage down.
You can't make other people be more consistent in how they resolve mechanics, but you can try to accomodate by pushing your own dps higher.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The whole reason "Skip Soar or disband" became a meme is basically it was laughably east to skip. It literally required a basic opener because Zurvan does nothing. There aren't any mechanics to worry about by that point in the fight. If you understood the basic functions of your job, you'd skip Soar. Therefore, groups unable to skip weren't able to perform at that minimal a level. It isn't elitism to expect reasonable levels of damage in harder content.

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Reasonable*=See inflated

I wasnt talking about soar, I was talking about flare star which is why I mentioned p1, that phase that literally lasts for less than a minute, I was in a group with a tryhard who unironically complained about the placement as if he was in some static tryhard group, it was a pug and it was not something that caused anyone problem and there was more than enough safe space to move to, he just complained because it wanst that perfectly stacked flare star IN A PUG.

So no it wasnt about a dps check, it was just a delusional tryhard who for some reason expects people to have done the fight in some l33t group a million times before and follows their l33t strat at all times cuz of course everyone must have done that fight when it was current.

And you show your elitism by literally what you said, the devs did not intend for soar to always be skipped else it wouldnt exist, it is a mechanic that exists to be done, by saying everyone should skip it or disband, it means you expect everyone to have performance above what the encounter actually requires which is chosen by the devs, therefore you have falsely inflated the requirements for that content which results in elitism and gatekeeping.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

But it's okay because the group can still clear, right?

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Yes, when the content has generous checks and even allows for mistakes so you can still clear after that then it is okay, the world didnt end, someone just didnt play well, instead of being offended by the fact not everyone is a tryhard maybe you should have felt better for yourself for having above average performance to get everyone through, I am starting to think this western mentality that seems to be repulsed by anyone underperfoming comes for the delusional "pull yourself up from your bootstraps" meme since it is the same thing but for irl.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That is what frustrates players.

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Maybe players shouldnt be playing a game if they cant have fun without expecting people to be on their already INFLATED level, this is a video game, not a job, not something you do to please others and definitely not something that your self worth should depend on.
If you are frustrated cuz someone is learning or is new, you are the problem for having severely unrealistic and false expectations and that is on you, if you treated this like a video game you wouldnt be having such problems.

I love how in these discussions it's never okay to expect basic competence but completely fine to put additional pressure on the rest of the party.
If someone is barely performing at the required level, then happens to "just not play well" and drop even lower, requiring the rest of the party to make up for it that's completely fine, world didn't end, so what, don't be elitist and mention it.
If someone had to play at a much higher level to make up for the above mentioned, they better keep quiet and don't they dare feel frustrated by it. Damn elitist. Just feel blessed that you had the opportunity to carry others. Give yourself a silent pat on the back but keep your head down.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

I love how in these discussions it's never okay to expect basic competency but completely fine to put additional pressure on the rest of the party.
If someone is barely performing at the required level, then happens to "just not play well" and drop even lower, requiring the rest of the party to make up for it that's completely fine, world didn't end, so what, don't be elitist and mention it.
If someone had to play at a much higher level to make up for the above mentioned, they better keep quiet and don't they dare feel frustrated by it. Damn elitist. Just feel blessed that you had the opportunity to carry others. Give yourself a silent pat on the back but keep your head down.

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I sense a certain level of sarcasm with this post.

People have largely had an overinflated sense of competency requirements for the fight they're completing, so yes, that is not ok. If someone is not performing, or barely performing at the minimum requirement that the duty expects then that is a different matter entirely. Equally, people seem to be under the impression that someone playing subpar puts other players where they're in a position that they can show indecent behavior in reaction to the matter- Is silently kicking a player, leaving the party, and/or linking a discord resource for people to look at really that challenging for a lot of players before sliding out? Nobody likes the player that interjects with counterproductive nonsense with no other purpose than to disparage, as much as they do players failing to meet some arbitrary competencies.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

I love how in these discussions it's never okay to expect basic competency but completely fine to put additional pressure on the rest of the party.

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What I would define as basic competency is the minimum required performance by everyone to beat an encounter which is often quite forgiving and this is chosen by the devs, not the inflated requirements players choose to spout to both inflate their egos and also get easier runs, and as proven by the previous poster I replied to they dont expect basic competency, they expect above basic competency so they can skip mechanics and have an easy roflstomp because god forbid they have to do the encounter normally or wipe because someone is learning, that is the worst thing evah, everything should be a roflstomp xD

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Just feel blessed that you had the opportunity to carry others. Give yourself a silent pat on the back but keep your head down.

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Exactly because people who dont suffer from self esteem issues know where they stand and they dont require the game or others to congratulate and reward them to make them feel special and "elite". You helped someone and you should be satisfied with that.

I think a little of column A and a little of column B. Whilst you can set certain requirements and expectations in a PUG, you'll likely always have to account for varying levels of understanding & experience. There's a level of rolling the dice. But I do think it'd uncool if say a PF said "must be able to do 'x'" or "must be up to 'y'" and you join despite not meeting that requirement, because there are varying levels of progression and some groups are further along than others and people might be going for certain strats.

But of course there is a disadvantage to using PF and forming PUG's, you have less quality control, and I think it's better to accept than fight it (maybe help people improve rather than disparage and maybe they'll pay it forward), because hey, those people want to clear content too and they're using the right tools to do it and some legitimately want to get better at it. There is a bit of a jump in difficulty between normal content and EX or Savage. Case in point, I played AST like a pseudo-WHM or pseudo-SCH until I took it into Misera and found I wasn't playing AST correctly, because it had been fine until that point, so my heals and damage output was low until I corrected it. Prior to that, I had only used SCH or DNC.



Expecting a tighter ship however, this I feel is more the benefit of a static, because you have the consistency of players for a start and also you can vet a little more and you can run it to the standard you like. I know a friend's static will run savage content with potential recruits to see how well they work together and that they can keep up with what the need, which was especially important for when they did Ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

it also shatters the illusion that XIV has a nice playerbase too; if FFXIV is truly all sugar and rainbows, why can't we have damage meters? it's almost like we're awful just like every other gaming community lol

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You're confusing the player base/community with the people. Rules, regulations, and limitations (and enforcement of them) help to foster a "nice" player base/community even with "not nice" people being part of it (or rather because of them being part of it).

An icon or sound queue on training dummies (at least) showing if you are hitting positionals.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Was thinking on this after running it multiple times.

1) Personal replay system to understand what happened when you died. Like snapshot the last 5-10 seconds before you were killed, and have the ability to replay that. Also, show hidden target areas of the attacks when doing the replay. It will help a lot.

2) A checkbox progress meter based on key mechanics the boss does. This is more of a personal record so you know what specific mechanic you've survived past. It's not perfect, but I'd love to be able to know how many more checkboxes there are before the enrage hits on each fight. They could even have ??? next to the ones you haven't seen yet.

Was trying to think of other things but those two would be "nice to haves". Not sure what else would be missing.

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I really don't miss a public DPS meter in the game, but it would be so nice to have some sort of a performance meter that wouldn't give a number but maybe a color (red/yellow/dark green /bright green) just to let you know how well you're doing in the run. Sometimes it's hard to have a perception on that, especially if you're playing a job that is not gated behind a strict rotation.

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Originally Posted by Vaern

I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I had to see and learn that some people are not consistent enough and failing a mechanic either results in death or a damage down.
You can't make other people be more consistent in how they resolve mechanics, but you can try to accommodate by pushing your own dps higher.

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Here is a thing, what if mechanic are done correctly ,no one died, and no one have a damage down? I remember when I did A12 normal back in heavenward and I was on the ps4. We hit enraged twice we cleared it on the third try with 3 seconds left on enrage. Then what then? I remember we had a mnk in the group didn't use there kit correctly such as using form shift in the beginning to set up and just went in and started punching it and was not using positional.

Don't get me wrong a meter is not needed to see if dps low. You can do a fight an notice how fast a boss is dying. Basic understanding of your class is all is needed and reading your tool tips.

Truth be told, I wouldn't mind having a meter for my personal use. For my eyes only.

Before I forget, please don't say I have a WOW mentality. I never played it.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

And you show your elitism by literally what you said, the devs did not intend for soar to always be skipped else it wouldnt exist, it is a mechanic that exists to be done, by saying everyone should skip it or disband, it means you expect everyone to have performance above what the encounter actually requires which is chosen by the devs, therefore you have falsely inflated the requirements for that content which results in elitism and gatekeeping..

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In truth that encounter was also designed by the same developers who designed the mechanics to accomodate 2 tanks.
With that in mind you can't really label it elitism when everyone was running a 1 tank set up specifically for the purpose of bringing some extra dps to skip that mechanic.

It wasnt expecting the 4 damage dealers to step up there game and perform above and beyond the minimum required of them.
It was taking a 5th damage dealer in place of a second tank to do the extra damage required to skip that mechanic.
That being said taking 5 damage dealers and throwing criticism when they only do the damage of 4 damage dealers isn't elitism it's fair critisism.

Even the average Joes were throwing up party finders with a 1 tank set up, it wasn't just the top tier players. The laughable thing about that fight is because every PF group was running 1 tank setups and as such there were a ton of tanks who weren't able to get groups, Which then led to parties of 6 tanks and 2 healers skipping soar mechanics when parties of 5 dps jobs couldn't... That's why its such a meme...

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

It is really rare for everyone to do the mechanics well yet still fail the dps check when the game is so generous on its DPS requirements since there is quite a big gap between best performance and performance required to clear, even though certain tryhards expect 90 parses for content that requires 40 but that is also done because if you pretend the requirements is that high your achievement must be that high too right? This is completely a psychological problem with people whose self esteem depends on video games.

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Ironically it's usually the "bad" (insert better choice of word) players whose self esteem often depends on video games. This is where the sentiment of escapism stems from. People who are lazy, depressed, lonely or feel they can't accomplish anything in there life often escape to video games as a means of finding self esteem.. This is why they often complain about elitism, gatekepping, tryhards.. and a bunch of other terms.

In comparison a lot of the better players (again terrible word choice) play video games to supplement life not escape from it. They hold jobs, families, lives, and still make time to take on the various challenges video games throw at them...

Where as the players who use games as escapism are often the entitled ones. who whine when they can't get that shiny that someone else has so cry for it to be made easier and handed to them on a silver platter. They complain about gate keeping and other such stuff when in reality the only one blocking there path is themselves. No-one is blocking you from entering a piece of content and getting that reward because they dont want you to have it, so there is no gatekeeping or elitism.. Hell they'd probably pat you on the back and say good job if you did take it on and smash it instead of saying "NO you can't have this..."

This is what kills a lot of the content in the game. The way all the rewards and trophies lose all there value and significance because people feel entitled to the same rewards but with none of the effort... It's not about how many people have x trophy or x item. Its about what it represents generally.

I'm far from a top end player these days so iIm definitly not an elitist. I smashed Coil In ARR, dabbled with Alexander in HW. by SB my raiding was basically slot filler for a couple of friends so I have a few clears but sporadic. Omega 1 2, 6, 7, 10 I think? and I've never set foot in eden savage because there's just no real motivation to do so when they keep nerfing everything...

In my mind it's like busting ya ass off in the 500m to win a gold medal. and then find everyone got one at the finish line... You could have walked and still got one (kinda destroys the significance or value.)

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Originally Posted by Vaern

What's actually funny is that in my experience it's not uncommon in Party Finder groups extremes or savage for people to ask logs sometimes. Hell I even saw people directly posting the link to the logs in chat in response. I couldn't care less as it wasn't harming anyone in any way. But it's not something I'd do myself because I know the policy around it and I don't want any trouble.

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I wouldn't really care either unless I see it being used to attack others, then I will report it even if I'm not the target.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

cry for it to be made easier and handed to them on a silver platter. they complain about gatekeeping and other suchstuff when the only one blocking there path is themselves. noone is blocking you from entering a piece of content and getting that reward because they dont want you to have it so there is no gatekeeping or elitism..

this is what kills a lot of the content in the game the way all the rewards and trophies lose all there value and significance because people feel entitled to the same rewards but with none of the effort.

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Like i said earlier, if you are a decent player you dont need to be told that by the game via achievements and by getting showered with unique rewards, you either know that or you are extremely insecure and need outside entities to congratulate you to feel validated, this system actually leads to extreme elitism and can be seen in WoW where literally you see posts like "You havent done X high end content so your opinion doesnt matter" because in an extremely elitist and tryhard community like that all that matters is doing high end content and showing off achievements/rewards you might not even like how they look. (Oh and this "nobody is stopping" you excuse doesnt work on someone who has played WoW and can see how such communities work, good luck making groups or joining groups with a non meta class in the extremely toxic, elitist and metaslave pug community that is WoW, or are you the kind that tells everyone how easy it is to find good friends or jump from fc to fc until you find a decent one, yeah when you have to go through this much social trouble, it is gatekeeping because this is a VIDEO GAME, NOT A JOB YOU HATE but have to go through because of the reward)

I was in the minority of people whose ego doesnt depend on video game achievements in that game so I would have absolutely zero problems with bringing back old mage tower/unique appearances so new players can get them nor would I have an issue if people who just did casual solo content had a path to mythic gear since I would still get it faster, but the elitists who want to keep everyone down and want to delude themselves that they achieved something in life are extremely attached to all those "elite rewards" so they dont want to share it with others because "omg I wont get to feel special anymore :("

Content is meant to be done because it is fun and you enjoy it, not purely because of the rewards and the delusion of "prestige" to help with your self esteem issues, sadly gamers often have self esteem issues and get hooked into the feeling of "I got this special reward cuz I did this elite thing" which leads to incredibly obnoxious people that turn the community toxic.

So absolutely NO, rewards should be available to all and people should get them cuz they like them, not for the reasons I mentioned.

Integrate a personal Grade system, Based on uptime and stats,
Avoid all AOE rank F D C B A S S++
S is using cool down to mitigate 50% fight wide effect. S++ mitigating every fight wide Effect and avoid ever AOE
Uptime Rank F D C B A S S++
% of your uptime when you were using cooldowns.
if 3rd party website and figure out 100% usage of tools SE should be able to do it too.
Special Roll Rank F D C B A S S++
IE
TANK, Mitigate tank busters, keep hate, collecting adds,
Healer, Overheals, DPS regen or sheilds.
Range DPS (only really play BRD and DNC) Song up time, effect of ticks Dot %, dancing every 30 seconds and 1 min. % of time at 100% when you are wasting dps.
Melee DPS doing positions correctly, Cool down...
magic DPS NO CLUE I HATE MAGIC DPS THEY CAN ALL JUST DO THERE OWN THING... I've Tried to level BLM and RDM and they both suck.. But that just me and how I play. I know some great BLM DPS I Just don't like them... someone that plays them can come up with ideas.

end of a boss,
Report card
Uptime Rank B your best A
Avoidable dmg, Rank A your best A
Job Rank S your best S

Special rewards for getting S++ on fights.

It would give people an idea of direct feedback as to what they are doing wrong vs the community calling them out or using 3rd party tools.
Turn on or off feedback.


That accept there are 3rd party tools people already use to improve themselves but you shame them for using them. There is a seedy underbelly everyone who really cares uses fflogs + xivanalysis. but some like myself refuse because of the small chance of ban hammer who are at a disadvantage. My hubby sucks at the game. He can learn but just doesn't care to do better. I tell him how to play better and he improves every expansion toss out 1/2 of what he learned and because he plays different jobs than me I am not the best teacher but I get to do Savage and he doesn't because he isn't told where he is messing up. So I end up not doing Savage because he wants but he isn't good enough / care enough to improve to the point where he can do it.

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

if 3rd party website and figure out 100% usage of tools SE should be able to do it too.

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From what I've seen it's less about 'being able to figure it out' and far more about 'SE chooses not to cater in that direction because they have no desire to'.

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

Integrate a personal Grade system, Based on uptime and stats,
Avoid all AOE rank F D C B A S S++
S is using cool down to mitigate 50% fight wide effect. S++ mitigating every fight wide Effect and avoid ever AOE
Uptime Rank F D C B A S S++
% of your uptime when you were using cooldowns.
if 3rd party website and figure out 100% usage of tools SE should be able to do it too.
Special Roll Rank F D C B A S S++
IE
TANK, Mitigate tank busters, keep hate, collecting adds,
Healer, Overheals, DPS regen or sheilds.
Range DPS (only really play BRD and DNC) Song up time, effect of ticks Dot %, dancing every 30 seconds and 1 min. % of time at 100% when you are wasting dps.
Melee DPS doing positions correctly, Cool down...
magic DPS NO CLUE I HATE MAGIC DPS THEY CAN ALL JUST DO THERE OWN THING... I've Tried to level BLM and RDM and they both suck.. But that just me and how I play. I know some great BLM DPS I Just don't like them... someone that plays them can come up with ideas.

end of a boss,
Report card
Uptime Rank B
Avoidable dmg, Rank A
Job Rank S

It would give people an idea of direct feedback as to what they are doing wrong vs the community calling them out or using 3rd party tools.
Turn on or off feedback.

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I'd find all of this good and informative even outside of endgame content.. under the express condition that only you can see all this for yourself and others cannot ask/demand that you show it to them.. so pretty much similar to the 'others can't harass/bother you with their parser readouts'. I legit would have found it helpful in all my roles if the game had consistently kept track of how I've been doing throughout my journey from ARR to ShB with statistics such as what you show above.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Content is meant to be done because it is fun and you enjoy it, not purely because of the rewards and the delusion of "prestige" to help with your self esteem issues, sadly gamers often have self esteem issues and get hooked into the feeling of "I got this special reward cuz I did this elite thing" which leads to incredibly obnoxious people that turn the community toxic.

So absolutely NO, rewards should be available to all and people should get them cuz they like them, not for the reasons I mentioned.

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You're going into the realm of Intrisinc vs Extrinsic motivation here, and seem to have the opinion that extrinsic motivation is not fun. In so much as hating your day job I may agree.

But extrinsic motivators can and more often are a lot of fun and enjoyment for many people. This is true with many hobbies or pattimes.. You can play soccer.. Intrinsicly just have a bit of a kick around with your friends in the local park for a laugh. Or extrinsicly form a team for a local league or tournament with the aim to win that cup or trophy. Doesnt suddenly mean its not fun to take part in.

Arguably with the age of the internet extrinsic motivators are a bigger driving force than ever. With many people seeking fame or other forms of recognition for everything they do.. From how many likes your recent facebook selfie got. to how many followers you have on twitch or subscribers on youtube etc etc.

I personally have a hobbie of flying model helicopters and airplanes and while I often fly them just for fun. I also push myself to be better at it because I sometimes enter flying competions win a few trophies or even get hired to do arial photography, and there's a great deal of fun and satisfaction in winning a trophy or taking that perfect photo..

Video games are no different. Extrinsic motivators are often a great deal of fun and incredibly satisfying...

Intrinsic fun is often pretty shallow and short lived by comparison. In a way you can see this in xiv with the way in which it makes everything ridiculously easy to obtain.. a new player today might go and get the pony mount from ifrit today and have fun riding it around today... tomorrow though it'll probably be forgotten about and never used again.... already bored of it because theres no extrinsic value associated to it.

Another example Mobile gaming.. Mobile games are often designed to be simple and heavily intrinsic. but the result of that is they come and go very very quickly.. download it today play it on the train home.. uninstall it 2 or 3 days later already bored of it... Which is why many are so in your face with microtransactions because if they dont get your money in the first 48 hours they never will.

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

end of a boss,
Report card
Uptime Rank B your best A
Avoidable dmg, Rank A your best A
Job Rank S your best S

Special rewards for getting S++ on fights.

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And then people start trolling by intentionally dropping AoEs in the wrong place, not healing, etc. There goes your S rank!

You can't do personal scoring in group content like that. It's fine in solo content (Masked Carnivale already does it) but in a group any score would have to be collective.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

arguably with the age of the internet extrinsic motivators are a bigger driving force than ever. with many people seeking fame or other forms of recognition for everything they do.. from how many likes your recent facebook selfie got. to how many followers you have on twitch or subscribers on youtube etc etc.

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All of them being quite dangerous, unhealthy and lead to formation of delusions which are kind of a bad thing that should be avoided which that leads to the topic of companies deluding people and making them feel better by telling them how great they are for achieving basic tasks which they assist the player via visual clues he often is not even aware in exchange for money which once again leads to delusions which are a bad thing but hey to company made their money which is their true goal. You see fun is not as subjective as some like to believe, the reason you are enjoying something can be ascertained and judged whenever it is healthy or good, as well as the consequences of said "fun" has to people around them.
I am sure a person with self esteem issues loves playing a broken class that can 2-3 shot other players in pvp though that is wrong because 1) he doesnt deserve the feeling of victory because he is abusing a broken class and thus his feeling of "fun" shouldnt justifiably happen yet it still happens no matter how wrong that is, 2) this hurts the people around him which in turn makes a community worse.

This game is far superior to WoW in my eyes exactly because it doesnt force people into things they dont like for the rewards, it doesnt rush people, it doesnt force them to deal with an incredibly toxic, elitist and tryhard community, and considering it is doing really well sub wise I am feeling the game has the right direction, because we have WoW to see what happens when the systems you suggest are embraced. (Though I will agree that the predatory, manipulative, elite achievement focused game like WoW is far more profitable because it pushes people to buy tokens for carries and keeps people with self esteem issues hooked to the feeling of being "elite", but like everyone should know by now very well, profitable=/=good game)

So yeah, I think if people want an achievement focused elitist mess, they should absolutely try out WoW, if they want a fun video game that exists to be enjoyed as a whole world rather than hook you via manipulative practices, FF14 should be their choice.

And based on recent mmo population data, FF14 has only been increasing in sub numbers consistently so this casual approach seems to also be pretty successful, especially with many people probably coming from WoW's ultimate tryhard xpac that is shadowlands where they doubled down in the achievement focused gameplay you seem to be fond of.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

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Why are you constantly saying that people who want to be rewarded for their efforts, or who don't want to play with people not as good as them, are elitists with their ego solely tied to video games? Did an elitist hurt you in the past?

Do you understand that for some people, outdoing themselves and having something to show for it is FUN?

Besides what's the shame in feeling good for having something to show that you're doing better than the rest?

Why are people elitist for not wanting to drag dead weights to the finish line? Why would people incapable of achieving something be entitled to the rewards of said thing?

You can say "it's a video game and video games are supposed to be fun" all you want, do you think about the fun of the people doing the carrying when you say that?

There is no shame in not having the level for savage and ultimate content, but people who don't want to take the time to learn how to play better are not entitled to the same rewards as people who studied their jobs and encounters (yes studying these can be fun) and I hope it stays that way.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

or who don't want to play with people not as good as them, are elitists

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That itself is the very definition of elitist, but that doesn't automatically make them a jerk. It's all about the personality of the person. What some don't understand is that someone can be an elitist without being a horrible person. The rest of the post...eh, debatable I guess. But on this they are not wrong.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

That itself is the very definition of elitist, but that doesn't automatically make them a jerk. It's all about the personality of the person. What some don't understand is that someone can be an elitist without being a horrible person. The rest of the post...eh, debatable I guess. But on this they are not wrong.

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Subjective... It's also about both people not just the good one dubbed the elitist but the bad one too.

If a good player doesn't want to play with a bad one You can't just dub them elitist or toxic. or anyother buzz word..

I'm not the best player in the world. but if I'm in a duty with someone whos a dead weight and playing badly and I try and offer help and advice and get that thrown right back in my face.. how am I the toxic one or the elitist if I then decide I don't want to waste my time and play with them?

Many would argue its the other player whos the deadweight and the toxic one as there attitude and behaviour is detrimental to the whole party and dragging everyone else down with there you dont pay my sub mentallity... that is toxicity.

It's a fairly common thing if you read around good players often try and offer worse players help and advice only to either be ignored or have it thrown in there face. you can't then fault them for leaving or not wanting to play with those people

These definitely don't sound like they'd make the cut due to the baggage involved.

1) Score Cards or scoring systems. They did have something like it for deep dungeons, but putting it in savage is asking for trouble. It's better just to keep victory binary.
2) Systems that track Efficiency. Basically, it falls into the same realm as the DPS meters.

Stuff they most certainly could add

1) Better systems to facilitate learning a fight. I'm talking giving people actual information on the mechanic in the game and spelling it out for them, because this is one headache that isn't going to go away. Even if it only happens upon dying to the mechanic, it would greatly reduce the requirement on seeing videos before the fight, which means less prep time and more time playing the game.

2) A better progress tracker. They got progress trackers for when you do dungeons and things so I don't know why they can't be used for savage mechanics.

So I've been reading through all of this and have a few opinions to throw in.
First (and most on topic), I think that it would be nice if there was some sort of soft indicator that would tell you as a DPS player if you were dealing enough damage to not be holding your team members back in whatever content you are playing. A simple indicator that only you can see somewhere (maybe a dot beside your party panel or whatnot). It would change colour as the encounter progresses to keep you informed.

Green: You are doing well. If you keep doing what you are doing, you will be able to make up for personal mistakes or even mistakes of others.
Yellow: You are still pulling your weight but you are making enough mistakes that one or two more big ones or if you start being even messier on your rotation you could start causing the group trouble.
Red: You are currently performing at a level where someone else is needing to perform higher than normal in order for the encounter to be beaten.

If everyone has a yellow dot, the encounter will still be completed. In fights without an enrage mechanic, the dot will never turn red. The reason I would like this is because if you are playing as a tank or healer... you know if you are playing well enough to beat an encounter. The party either dies or it doesn't. But when I play DPS I find it hard to tell sometimes if I am being a productive team member.

As for the other things discussed in this topic about elitism and gatekeeping and such... Here are my two cents.
Different game modes are targeted at different people. If you want to play the hard content, the content specifically made for people that enjoy challenge at a level where you need to optimize your play in order to be successful, then you need to make sure that you are playing at the same level as those you are playing with. The fun from THAT content comes from overcoming a difficult task with expert execution and tactics. You unfairly ruin other players' fun by not improving and playing at their expected level of competence.

HOWEVER that is not the only content in the game. A player should not be locked out of experiencing a piece of content entirely because of their ability to perform at the highest levels. They should still be able to play every raid/dungeon/whatever at a lower difficulty which requires only basic competency to complete, and all statistical and cosmetic item rewards should be the same across all difficulties. Drop rates can vary (reasonably, like 2-3x higher not 20-30x) but the availability of the rewards should not. Exclusive rewards for higher difficulties should be things like titles. An exclusive reward is important for a feeling of satisfaction, but the reward does not need to be something that excludes another player from advancement. Someone playing this content should be able to do the content without feeling anxious or feeling pressure from other players.

There shouldn't even be a discussion on performance in the game. There are people that swear by dps being in a good spot and yet they are the busiest, most over burdened jobs in the game. Rotations are way better in other games compared to this one when it comes to damage dealers and end game. A lot of people who are not playing very well on dps in this game are probably just fine in any other one.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

What I would define as basic competency is the minimum required performance by everyone to beat an encounter which is often quite forgiving and this is chosen by the devs,...

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I am interested on your opinion on a simple scenario I will list below.

If we go by an encounter has a minimum required performance set out by the devs, then that means the fight will be cleared if everyone performs to this minimum standard. However, what about when you have a group that can still clear the encounter, there are no deaths, however, one of the DPS is performing at under 10% of their potential. This means the other players are having to make up for the DPS deficit of this one player.

My question is, despite, as a group, the party as a whole is meeting the 'minimum required level', one player is massively underperforming. Would it be fair to say this player is NOT performing to the minimum required performance which means the others have to perform to a higher standard? If so, why is it fine for that one player to put less work into clearing the fight than the rest of the party? They could replace that member with someone else and clear the boss quicker, which means less time for mistakes to happen, less time for resources to drain etc.

Basically, what this boils down to, SE has a set expectation, a minimum performance level that needs to be met. So, how do you measure it? If you keep hitting enrage with no mechanic failures and no deaths, however everyone in your group thinks they are doing fine for their rotation, how can you find where your weak spot is. You cannot just say, play better, they already think they are playing at their best and this is where the issue lies with alot of people.

People go into content that they are not ready for, however there is no way ingame to tell if someone is ready or not, this is why people then turn to parsers. Even with a new fight, an experienced player can still output a respectable level of DPS, so if you have someone who is clearly underperforming from the get go, you can either say they need to get better or you replace them.

Even if you do a personal one, you still fail a check and someone asks how everyone done. Are you going to be the one who says, yup, the game tells me I'm the one who is doing badly, or are you going to stay silent or lie?

Again it comes down to the minimum expectation and the game does not give any feedback to say yes, you are good enough or no, you need to get better. A minimum performance line has been set, however, you don't know if you have crossed it yet.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

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That is why I like my idea of a coloured dot. It is simple, it tells you if you are performing within, below, or on the border of what the developers have set as the minimum needed, it is private, and it is non-comparable (you cannot ever go "my green dot is more green than yours"). The bar for a green dot in normal content would be VERY low.

LUL this is far too much effort just allow for meters to be used and just follow the protocol if someone harasses someone over numbers and they get reported GM's take action.

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Originally Posted by Awha

LUL this is far too much effort just allow for meters to be used and just follow the protocol if someone harasses someone over numbers and they get reported GM's take action.

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At the very least I think it could implemented seamlessly into the Stone, Sky, Sea mode instead of just telling players "Here's a dummy. Kill it fast. Good luck have fun" and leaving it at that. If there's a good place for a meter I think it could be there. Or maybe have it pop up when a player attacks a regular training dummy. Out of sight and out of mind until needed, and it could give players a decent idea of what they could be doing. Then they can work it into whatever mechanics they need to deal with. Not having to see their names publicly displayed with 3/7/23 others might also take some pressure off anyone who's a little uneasy in a party setting.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I am interested on your opinion on a simple scenario I will list below.

If we go by an encounter has a minimum required performance set out by the devs, then that means the fight will be cleared if everyone performs to this minimum standard. However, what about when you have a group that can still clear the encounter, there are no deaths, however, one of the DPS is performing at under 10% of their potential. This means the other players are having to make up for the DPS deficit of this one player.

My question is, despite, as a group, the party as a whole is meeting the 'minimum required level', one player is massively underperforming.

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And my opinion is very simple, if you need to invent some extremely rare scenario to justify your design preferences then something is amiss, a far more realistic scenario is that you will often have a few overperformers along with many average people and a small number of underperformers meaning you are well above the minimum requirements together, actually the more overperformers you have the bigger the room of error for the rest which further lowers the actual requirements to beat an encounter.

Now if you want to talk about a ridiculous scenario where everyone somehow ends up being exactly on the minimum requirements and you found a player that somehow afks most of the fight to reach that 10% of their potential number of yours, I would say you need to be more honest with yourself.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Why are you constantly saying that people who want to be rewarded for their efforts, or who don't want to play with people not as good as them, are elitists with their ego solely tied to video games? Did an elitist hurt you in the past?

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You should read what I wrote in the previous better then, I wrote specifically why certain design ideas and personal feelings are wrong and shouldnt be promoted because they are both unhealthy, lead to delusions of elitism and hurt the community, a pretty decent list of important reasons to avoid.

And to be honest I was merely explaining, we have a perfect representation of what happens when you pander to the tryhard/elitist crowd in the form of WoW, a game who has chosen to focus on high end content and achievement driven rewards at the expense of everything else.

And I would not want to see this great game be turned into the elitist tryhard mess that is WoW, especially now that we are seeing FF14 numbers consistently increase which shows it is a far healthier mmo than WoW, which btw droves of casuals are abandoning since the latest expansion doubled down on your "reward for their efforts" design mentality.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Reasonable*=See inflated

I wasnt talking about soar, I was talking about flare star which is why I mentioned p1, that phase that literally lasts for less than a minute, I was in a group with a tryhard who unironically complained about the placement as if he was in some static tryhard group, it was a pug and it was not something that caused anyone problem and there was more than enough safe space to move to, he just complained because it wanst that perfectly stacked flare star IN A PUG.

So no it wasnt about a dps check, it was just a delusional tryhard who for some reason expects people to have done the fight in some l33t group a million times before and follows their l33t strat at all times cuz of course everyone must have done that fight when it was current.

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So a basic opener is inflated in an Extreme Trial fight? That's literally the barest of minimum expectations to have of anyone.

Could they have been a Black Mage, Bard or Machinist per chance, all of which had cast times in Heavensward, and in the case of Black Mage, very minimal movement tools? If so, they were likely upset someone baited a Flare Star AoE near them, which focused excessive movement. While not something to rage over, it's certainly annoying, and yes, worthy of being brought up. Perhaps instead of defaulting to calling someone a tryhard if they show even the slightest interest in maintaining their damage, you might notice these things. Granted, they could have threw a gasket, though based on your responses in this thread alone. I suspect it's you making them out to be the bad guy far more if only because in less than a paragraph, you've insulted them several times.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

And you show your elitism by literally what you said, the devs did not intend for soar to always be skipped else it wouldnt exist, it is a mechanic that exists to be done, by saying everyone should skip it or disband, it means you expect everyone to have performance above what the encounter actually requires which is chosen by the devs, therefore you have falsely inflated the requirements for that content which results in elitism and gatekeeping.

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And now we see you throwing "elitism" around for even the slightest disagreement. Not everyone wants to perform at the barest minimum and just "get by". If a party advertises "Skipping Soar," then by joining their party you're agreeing to such a prerequisite. If you aren't capable of doing so, you have no business joining. That isn't elitism but simple courtesy. If there aren't any parties available tailored towards your preference, make your own. If it doesn't fill quickly, then the community has spoken.

Speaking of which, what the devs intended is, frankly, irrelevant. The community decisions what standards exists. A prime example is healer DPS. The dev team never intended for healers to contribute large amounts of DPS. In fact, Yoshida infamously claimed they don't calculate healer DPS at all despite releasing Gordias and Mids, which were downright impossible without. That statement has since but walked back to claim they don't calculate healer DPS outside of early week prog, or at least not heavily. Regardless, the community has more or less thrown out that entire philosophy be it due to equal contribution arguments, lackluster healing design both mechanical and encounter wise or simply adapting to the systems given.

That last statement is important as I can flip your argument and say if they didn't want players setting higher expectations like Skip Soar. They shouldn't have put it at a HP threshold low enough players can easily skip if they're reasonably competent at their job. Expectations don't arise out of thin air but from adaptation within the game rules.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Yes, when the content has generous checks and even allows for mistakes so you can still clear after that then it is okay, the world didnt end, someone just didnt play well, instead of being offended by the fact not everyone is a tryhard maybe you should have felt better for yourself for having above average performance to get everyone through, I am starting to think this western mentality that seems to be repulsed by anyone underperfoming comes for the delusional "pull yourself up from your bootstraps" meme since it is the same thing but for irl.

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My issue with this mentality is that hypothetical Black Mage only cleared on the backs of better players putting in a greater effort then they were willing to. If everyone shared their mentality, they wouldn't meet the DPS check, no matter how generous. Therefore, why is it okay for players to essentially leech—queuing into content woefully above their skill level—yet players criticising them for doing so are "elitists"?

Put another way. We all started off bad and/inexperienced at some point. Except some of us opted to learn how to improve. Why can't others if they want to attempt harder content?

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Maybe players shouldnt be playing a game if they cant have fun without expecting people to be on their already INFLATED level, this is a video game, not a job, not something you do to please others and definitely not something that your self worth should depend on.
If you are frustrated cuz someone is learning or is new, you are the problem for having severely unrealistic and false expectations and that is on you, if you treated this like a video game you wouldnt be having such problems.

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Your definition of fun isn't the holy grail. I'm not particularly keen having someone like the aforementioned Black Mage waste my time in Savage level content because they can't be bothered to put in any effort beyond the barest of minimums. It's disrespectful to upwards of seven other people who are attempting to clear say, E10S, but now have to deal with more mechanics they may otherwise have skipped or risk things like damage downs or repeated wipes due to someone having no idea what they're doing.

And your now shifting the goal posts. We aren't talking about new players and you know it. People weren't demanding Skip Soar and whatnot in learning parties. Most people are far more accommodating in a learning party, provided you're there to learn the actual fight and not your job. It's when players who don't know their job join clear/farm/two chest players that upset people as they have business doing so.

Scenarios like Mikey_R are not "extremely rare" if you frequent PF whatsoever. They are, in fact, quire common. Hence why it's been a continuous talking point for several years. Hell, I only just saw someone on stream who when told to upgrade their i500 weapon (last tier BiS), they promptly responded with "Why? Who cares?" This was in E11S, by the way. And with your logic, since they cleared they're above criticism despite using outdated gear.

While it's definitely tempting to add such systems, especially if you're knee-deep into the endgame aspects... parsers and other performance-related tools do represent a slippery slope for player behaviours.

Just from my own experience playing WoW, it's evident that these led to the game pretty much becoming dominated by a performance-obsessed mindset that put optimization and efficiency above all else -- including actually enjoying your time playing the game. To make matters even worse, it bled into ALL levels of content; new players were not spared from the demands for optimization and efficiency, basically making that game unapproachable.

The current "detente" between FFXIV and parsers where a blind eye is turned to them if they aren't causing a problem despite being against the rules is probably the best situation that I can think of. Making it more widespread might make it easier for those who are concerned with a good performance, but it will be to the detriment of everyone else; the snowball effect couldn't be stopped.

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I recall reading/hearing that the developers for FFXIV actually did consider implementing these tools at one point (may have been during one of the Live Letters)... but promptly stopped working on it when they saw it was affecting their own behaviour, namely making them more unpleasant to be around because of the strong competitive aspect they invariably start playing up. And again, from my own experience with WoW, I can actually attest to this. It was pretty much inevitable that I tried out using a damage meter... and I found myself being more and more of a jerk, and I wasn't liking it. I stopped using it pretty quickly after this realization, and I suspect Yoshi-P saw the exact same thing happening when his own team got a hold of them for FFXIV.

Needless to say, it's likely why he's dead-set against implementing them... they affect player behaviours and cause social problems.
Competition isn't always a good thing, especially when you're trying to work together.