Question for those who didn't pick up AST til 5.0 or after.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

In general, yes. For balance, yes.
In this case it's not relevant.
Just because you enjoyed the first version of this class doesn't mean you're entitled to love every version of the class or SQEX is being bad. You don't get some higher say in what's fun just because you dug the prototype. Hence my comment about how (in this case of people whining about the RNG) your "seniority" with the class doesn't elevate your perspective. SQEX wanted to change the job. They changed it to something someone doesn't like. That's unfortunate. But I'm as tired of people whining about ShB AST as they are tired of people whining about the RNG. I don't know what it is about that comment in particular that caused me to flip, but their "pick a different job if you don't like it" really got under my skin. I didnt like it in Stormblood, so I did play something else. I rocked SCH. I'm sorry we both can't have fun now but if you don't like it now, don't make yourself miserable and consider taking your own advice.

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Yes, you do. At least to an extent. The whole point of offering feedback is veteran players have the perspective to make comparisons. Long time Astros can reference what the job used to be like; why they enjoyed it and how current decisions have hurt or completely ruined the enjoyment they once had. If you're only just starting out on the job, or didn't invest much time into it. You can still offer your thoughts on why you disliked it, but your opinion shouldn't be weighed as heavily. Frankly, this has been one of the major issues of Shadowbringer's job design, in my opinion. The dev team prioritized accessibility and attracting new players to each job instead of focusing what made the job enjoyable to its current playerbase. Such is why we've seen such enormous backlash towards healers since launch, and why a job like Bard went from arguably the most popular DPS to the second least.

Many people did follow their own advice. Which is why Monk saw immediate panic buffs and a subsequent overhaul, Bard has seen changes nearly every patch and Astro remains divisive. Basically, the devs had to/still are fixing mistakes due to the fact their changes turned away more players than it brought in. In another words, you may like current Astro's card system. A lot more don't.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Yes, you do. At least to an extent. The whole point of offering feedback is veteran players have the perspective to make comparisons. Long time Astros can reference what the job used to be like; why they enjoyed it and how current decisions have hurt or completely ruined the enjoyment they once had. If you're only just starting out on the job, or didn't invest much time into it. You can still offer your thoughts on why you disliked it, but your opinion shouldn't be weighed as heavily.

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I'm sorry but i believe no player has a larger say in "what's fun" than another.
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
If you really wanna have that discussion, I'd argue that having a history with the job, if anything, might blind you somewhat to what it's really like now, as your baggage can prevent you from seeing it AS IS as opposed to someone who sees this version of the job without the past coloring their perspective. They've still had a whole expac of time with the job and if that's not enough then nothing can be.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Frankly, this has been one of the major issues of Shadowbringer's job design, in my opinion. The dev team prioritized accessibility and attracting new players to each job instead of focusing what made the job enjoyable to its current playerbase. Such is why we've seen such enormous backlash towards healers since launch, and why a job like Bard went from arguably the most popular DPS to the second least.

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Additionally you might just be shouting into the wind as far as SQEX is concerned. They don't care who is a vet of what job either, they're a business. If they design B will ultimately please more customers han design A... they're going with design B.
Not that this is right... but to expect different is to court disappointment.

It is not the same. I HAD a job that was my favourite, and now it is no more.. so i lost something, maybe you were playing some other job before shb?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

While I get the whole reversal purpose of a statement like this (and it does work in a lot of instances), I find the argument a bit flawed here as it’s coming from someone who didn’t enjoy a job that effectively existed the same for 4 years, but now does after it was radically changed. How is it really fair to tell original AST mains—mains that played the original iteration of the job, either from HW or SB—to “just go play something else” because (general) you now find it fun after it was drastically altered? Seems a bit unfair to the original ASTs that enjoyed the job as it was originally designed, and even more so that stuck with it through the dark days of early HW where literally no one wanted AST in their parties.

I have the same sentiment towards ShB BRD lovers that completely disregard old BRD mains that stuck through the job all through every overhaul and condemn criticisms of the latest iteration, and basically tell them to bugger off and go play DNC or something else so that these newer BRDs can enjoy a job that is a bard in name only. I don’t know. Seems like a flawed argument to me.

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Exactly this. thanks

There is one thing that i have to concede.. maybe i came a bit ADAMANT in my first post.. I don't want to disregard whoever loves Ast now, and i know a lot of people that love it now, in my guild too.. but i REALLY suffered the lost of my FAVOURITE job since HW, it is not the same anymore.. but whatever.. at least i now love RED so i am red mage main now.

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Originally Posted by Garten

i now love RED so i am red mage main now.

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: )

I apologize for being so adamant as well.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

But I think the developers should listen more to those who actively play the jobs rather than the ones who don’t, or who just play it on occasion. And this is for more than just AST; it’s for all jobs in general.

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Agreed.

I like the current AST, but honestly I'm a WhM main and the class shouldn't be designed for me. I've been rather against Enix's mentality this expansion of ripping classes, features and content away from players who really loved those things and trying to hand them over to people who didn't really have much interest in them. The whole point of multiple classes is to offer a variety of different playstyles so there's something for everyone. Watering them all down and trying to cater to the same vague majority doesn't actually please a wider target audience. It's flawed logic because you're only covering that one playstyle.

If there really were people who enjoyed the old AST, they should be working with them rather than tossing them aside. The vague casual majority doesn't need every class and feature in the game.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Agreed.

I like the current AST, but honestly I'm a WhM main and the class shouldn't be designed for me. I've been rather against Enix's mentality this expansion of ripping classes, features and content away from players who really loved those things and trying to hand them over to people who didn't really have much interest in them. The whole point of multiple classes is to offer a variety of different playstyles so there's something for everyone. Watering them all down and trying to cater to the same vague majority doesn't actually please a wider target audience. It's flawed logic because you're only covering that one playstyle.

If there really were people who enjoyed the old AST, they should be working with them rather than tossing them aside. The vague casual majority doesn't need every class and feature in the game.

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It wasn't really about catering to a certain playstyle though, it was about balance.
They realised that Bole and Ewer didn't belong in an RNG system, we all knew something needed to be done about Spire (and they ended up removing TP altogether so you cant blame that one on AST playstyle). In addition, they generally removed crit buffs anyway (MNK and BRD both had their crit procs removed) not just on AST, so there was clearly an overall balancing job being done. Most likely because of the way crit scales throughout an expansion, and how speed buffs are either loved or despised depending on the job.

Ultimately, changing the effects of cards isn't something that drastically affects the playstyle of the job. Cards still do the same thing, you draw a card at random, you have to make a conscious choice as to where that card goes, and then you put it there. The choices have changed to be much simpler, but the action has not.
AST is still the healer with the shortest cast times, the largest weaving windows, the most APM, it still does both shields and regens (better) so the playstyle is largely the same.
The complaint about the card effects falls more into the realm of job fantasy, flavour and lore.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I'm sorry but i believe no player has a larger say in "what's fun" than another.
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
If you really wanna have that discussion, I'd argue that having a history with the job, if anything, might blind you somewhat to what it's really like now, as your baggage can prevent you from seeing it AS IS as opposed to someone who sees this version of the job without the past coloring their perspective. They've still had a whole expac of time with the job and if that's not enough then nothing can be.

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That argument posits that veteran players of any job cannot be objective in their criticism and only hate change for change's sake. While there are certainly people like that, you can typically parse their arguments pretty easily. Either way, yes, we shall have to agree to disagree because I think priority on job appeasement should go towards the core audience job first before trying to attract a hopeful new crop of players. That isn't to say you can't do both, but the focus shouldn't be on "how can we get more players to try Astro?" but rather "How can we improve Astro for those who enjoy it while also attracting new players to the job?" If, for whatever reason, you aren't able to do both. Priority should be on retaining core players because you risk driving them away—which is exactly what happened this expansion.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Additionally you might just be shouting into the wind as far as SQEX is concerned. They don't care who is a vet of what job either, they're a business. If they design B will ultimately please more customers han design A... they're going with design B.
Not that this is right... but to expect different is to court disappointment.

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While, yes. That was more or less my point. The irony is the devs didn't follow that philosophy. Take Bard, for example. Not only was it arguably the most popular DPS in the entire game, it was near universally praised as the best iteration of the job. So... why change it at all? There's literally zero incentive to gut the job except some odd belief only one Physical Range can be support focused. What makes their decision worse is they already tried overhauling Bard once before: the dreaded Bowman. Which was loathed to the point they had to completely overhaul the job again come Stormblood. It should have been obvious taking away Bard's support and utility aspects wouldn't "please more customers" yet they did it anyway. And have since spent most of Shadowbringers either giving it back in small amounts or buffing Bard's overall potency due to the once immensely popular job being the second least desired DPS outside Monk.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That argument posits that veteran players of any job cannot be objective in their criticism and only hate change for change's sake.

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... what??
The argument posits that if two groups are trying to measure a job, the one with a colored perspective will have a skewed perspective, and the one without can potentially be more objective based on what is being measured.
I have no idea where you got that stuff about hating change.
I'm also just addressing this to correct the record. The initial comment was tangential to the main issue, which I believe you touch on best here:

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I think priority on job appeasement should go towards the core audience job first before trying to attract a hopeful new crop of players.

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I agree.
100%
The problem is the question is literally "do you enjoy it." One person having played through more versions of AST doesn't make their opinion weigh more when the question is "do you enjoy it."
Saying seniors opinions have more weight is not only inappropriate to the topic, it's especially inappropriate in a thread asking those who didn't pick up AST til 5.0 or after what they think of the job.

On that note, I would like to apologize for pretty thoroughly derailing this thread.

I just frigging love how the POINT of this thread was to bring some positivity from people who only picked it up now and are enjoying, to make a difference from all the complainer veterans threads. And then complainer veterans come here and not only complain, they even tell people that they should find something else to play. For real? Can't you stick t your whine threads?

I mained WHM, they ruined it for me already in SB and even more in ShB, I first only found peace switching to dps jobs and abandoning healing and now I finally find enjoyment again in healing with ShB version of AST. So what, did I go tell people off who enjoyed the class? No, I just found other ones.
I liked BRD is ARR, hated it in SB so I had to drop it, I'm enjoying it again with the ShB version.
I really liked MNK in ARR, didn't like how it was changed, I still don't like it anymore even with the current changes, whatever.
On the other hand I disliked tanking pre-ShB and like the current one.

And so on. When you play through expansions, jobs change completely all the time, it's normal that you'll like a job some expansions and don't like it some others. Thanks Chthulu we can play all classes on one character and easily change main. If there's no class you like out of so many we have....maybe it's not the game for you? You can't expect everything to stay the same over the years, and there's nothing wrong in adapting and changing your main class.
I'm sure there are people who enjoy classes more after the changes that make me hate them and drop them, good for them! The fact that I played the class longer or earlier doesn't make me entitled to anything. I would just sound like one of those complaining about "people nowadays are not what they used to be, in my tiiiiimes..."

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

When you play through expansions, jobs change completely all the time, it's normal that you'll like a job some expansions and don't like it some others. Thanks Chthulu we can play all classes on one character and easily change main. If there's no class you like out of so many we have....maybe it's not the game for you?

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That's a really shitty way to design the game though. It's taking away things people like and "forcing" them to adapt another playstyle/job when the devs want it, rather than when the player themselves is tired of what they've been playing and not giving them an option to return. In many cases players who's preferred playstyle has been completely killed off don't have any job to go to and while yes, one can just quit the game, people quitting is beneficial to neither SE(less money) nor the remaining players(lower population, game eventually dying out). While the effects may not be largely apparent just yet, intentionally designing the job system so that some people will inevitably quit due to said design, is an insanely stupid business decision.

On the other hand, you can have a large set of jobs, all with very varied playstyles and strongly defined gameplay identity, each catering very well to its specific niche of players and make all changes and fixes with said niche in mind. This way people can main what they really like instead of constantly jumping from job to job and just sorta enjoying them.
When a player feels things are getting stale they can just switch and try something else on their own terms and come back to their fave once they feel like it again. It's also easier to switch to something when you know exactly what you're getting into because the job design is consistent, instead of trying everything out and hoping something sticks.

However it's not like all jobs are constantly changing like you say. BLM has been kept pretty much on the same track from the beginning, with very strong gameplay identity and any changes made to it were in the direction of strengthening and improving it's existing playstyle, rather than flipping it on its head every expansion.
Interestingly, BLM is also consistently a very niche job, with pretty low content participation, but also high level of player satisfaction among those who play it and is largely regarded as a very well-designed job. By SE's usual logic of changing anything that's "unpopular" to make it more widely-appealing, BLM should've been revamped already, but for some reason they treat it differently. Perhaps it may be because it is Yoshida's job of choice, so they definitely have somebody to give feedback on it "in the house", rather than just going off vague statistics like content participation.
In any case, BLM's consistent state is evidence that really catering to a niche rather than constantly trying to make all jobs "one-size-fits-all" works.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

That's a really shitty way to design the game though.

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That's pretty much how MMOs are, though. Overall this doesn't even change much, there are some which basically become completely different games through expansions.
Fact is, devs look at numbers and see what most people want in that moment, in theory (I say in theory because some decisions are just weird and seem to be dislike by almost everybody). Which will never be what everybody wants. With changes, there will always be something people like and people dislike. The same thing can be considered an improvement by someone and ruining the game by someone else.
Fact about veterans of a class I imagine is the same way as they regard veterans of the game, aka they have the same interest in retaining veterans as in attracting new people, both to the game and to the specific job. They can't just keep one of the two sides in mind, espcially from a business point of view.

As for BLM, I don't know, I feel instead that it changed a lot over the expansions. It went from a mindless turret to a very complex and more mobile class. Sure, the second part fits more with the current game design needing more mobility, but the first seems more a class design change to me. And I remember a thread here that asked people which class they like better at lower level, and most people answered BLM, and current low level BLM is more similar to the old one so it means a lot of people liked the class much better before.

Thing is, they have to change the jobs up with each expansion. Just as many would complain that they haven't added anything new to the jobs as those who complain that things were changed, you're essentially buying a new game, you want something new for your money. And they can't just add new abilities to the existing skill sets or we'd get an unmanageable number of skills to use. So some skills have to be cut to make way for new ones, which means reworking the job.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

so the playstyle is largely the same.

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No, the changes made to cards and the removal of Time Abilities and other changes have deeply altered the playstyle.
It has been told many times by old AST (who played and cared a lot).

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

That's pretty much how MMOs are, though. Overall this doesn't even change much, there are some which basically become completely different games through expansions.
Fact is, devs look at numbers and see what most people want in that moment, in theory (I say in theory because some decisions are just weird and seem to be dislike by almost everybody). Which will never be what everybody wants. With changes, there will always be something people like and people dislike. The same thing can be considered an improvement by someone and ruining the game by someone else.
Fact about veterans of a class I imagine is the same way as they regard veterans of the game, aka they have the same interest in retaining veterans as in attracting new people, both to the game and to the specific job. They can't just keep one of the two sides in mind, espcially from a business point of view.

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That's what you would assume. It often seems however like SE looks at what people don't like, or rather what jobs are least played, and without trying to look deeper as to why they're not played (arguably higher skill floor & ceiling or just not a job that many people want to play, like tanks) they decide that it needs to be changed. It is fact that most people just prefer to play DPS, no amount of "accessibility changes" to tanks or healers is going to change that.

It's that eternal mystical "wider audience", something all mmos are chasing but rarely ever catch.
"Not enough people are playing job X and a lot of people are playing job Y, so we just need to make it more like job Y and people are totally gonna love it."
Making sweeping changes to a playstyle might work, no doubt about that. But it might also get some people interested for a short time only and then they go back to their original job, because job Y already existed. Except now all the people who previously enjoyed job X have also left.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

No, the changes made to cards and the removal of Time Abilities and other changes have deeply altered the playstyle.
It has been told many times by old AST (who played and cared a lot).

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I played AST in SB.
I stand by what I said. Maybe read it again and try to understand it instead of having an emotional kneejerk reaction.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Thing is, they have to change the jobs up with each expansion. Just as many would complain that they haven't added anything new to the jobs as those who complain that things were changed, you're essentially buying a new game, you want something new for your money. And they can't just add new abilities to the existing skill sets or we'd get an unmanageable number of skills to use. So some skills have to be cut to make way for new ones, which means reworking the job.

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You can add to a job without completely destroying its identity. That’s the complaint a lot of ASTs have: the developers removed the time aspects of the job (which was part of its identity in this game since its introduction in 3.0), and they neutered the card system to the point where they had to invent an entire mechanic to keep the six cards aspect relevant (seals—without seals, you could have just kept 2 cards: one for ranged, and one for melee). As with BRD: the developers removed all of the support aspects from the job due to the misconception that there couldn’t be two pseudo-support jobs in one game. Even with the drastic overhaul from HW BRD to SB BRD, the job never lost its core identity of being the closest thing to a support DPS this game could have. Now it’s a Ranger more than anything else, despite the level 80 quest continuing to emphasize how much BRDs sing to support their fellow people (lol).

They could have worked with the original card system without altering it so drastically; they could have also left in the time aspects. And they could have done both without making the job feel stale. It was basically the same from HW going into SB with a few new healy things (Star) and card mechanics (Sleeve Draw), but you didn’t really hear about ASTs complaining about how it was “the same ol’, same ol’ boring AST that we’ve been playing for 2 years already”.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You can add to a job without completely destroying its identity. That’s the complaint a lot of ASTs have: the developers removed the time aspects of the job (which was part of its identity in this game since its introduction in 3.0), and they neutered the card system to the point where they had to invent an entire mechanic to keep the six cards aspect relevant (seals—without seals, you could have just kept 2 cards: one for ranged, and one for melee). As with BRD: the developers removed all of the support aspects from the job due to the misconception that there couldn’t be two pseudo-support jobs in one game. Even with the drastic overhaul from HW BRD to SB BRD, the job never lost its core identity of being the closest thing to a support DPS this game could have. Now it’s a Ranger more than anything else, despite the level 80 quest continuing to emphasize how much BRDs sing to support their fellow people (lol).

They could have worked with the original card system without altering it so drastically; they could have also left in the time aspects. And they could have done both without making the job feel stale. It was basically the same from HW going into SB with a few new healy things (Star) and card mechanics (Sleeve Draw), but you didn’t really hear about ASTs complaining about how it was “the same ol’, same ol’ boring AST that we’ve been playing for 2 years already”.

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Well as we all know when they take elements away from a job, in this case the time aspect, they usually add it back as a new skill or give it to another job (Or maybe they wanted to nerf ast idk, it feels pretty op to me currently compared to the other healers). And they noticed that people went for balance anyways since it was the one that boosted damage since "you cant take damage if you kill the thing faster :D".

Playing old and new ast cards i prefer the new ones better since now i only have to contend with luck when it comes to seals and let me tell you my luck is still shit when it comes to seals :D. I believe personally they got rid of time dilation to nerf ast potential compared to the other healers. I don't understand why they got rid of the stun on opposition though, the extend effect i can understand but why the stun.

Off topic: I never understand why people keep saying bards lost all support aspects when they still have them for both their songs and their natural abilities. Yea it's to a lesser effect than SB but if they kept it the same as SB then people would just be like "Why bring dnc who can only buff the whole party for 20 seconds when we can have bard who buffs the party the entire fight."

@Rymi64 — Re: BRD

BRD does not have the support it had in SB. Passive song buffs aside (which they are really not that impressive), they lost an active buff that required management and timing (Foe’s); their mitigation buff has been shared with the other two physical ranged, thereby no longer unique to them (Troubadour—even if the reliance on song has been removed, it’s not a unique utility anymore); Minne working for oGCDs is nice, but Curing Waltz has a shorter CD and, when stacked, heals the entire party versus single target healing buff on one person; BV is not that impressive of a support tool when compared to others; and Refresh is no longer a thing (and with it, Foe’s management). Oh, and Paeon is useless in most content over level 50, but that was the case in SB, too. BRD absolutely does not have the support it used to have in SB.

DNC’s buffs crap all over BRD’s song buffs. You are severely underestimating Technical Finish, and even Devilment/Standard Finish, to say BRD’s buffing the entire party is better.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Thing is, they have to change the jobs up with each expansion. Just as many would complain that they haven't added anything new to the jobs as those who complain that things were changed, you're essentially buying a new game, you want something new for your money. And they can't just add new abilities to the existing skill sets or we'd get an unmanageable number of skills to use. So some skills have to be cut to make way for new ones, which means reworking the job.

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That sounds like monk for almost all expansions .Hw ogcd mantras that don’t refresh if you don’t press the button and Tornado “ I’m gonna lose my stacks anyway” kick. Stormblood whas the best version of mnk hands down. Double tornado kick, a lot of ogcd uses and a high skill ceiling too bad you didn’t had slashing or piercing debuff. And then they derped it again for shadow bringer first removing ogcd buttons so you fall actually asleep playing monk and then killing anatma opener and making form shift early lvl anatma. And then increasing chakra gain so mnk Mains actually made a trigger that tells you how many of them you lost over a fight when you even spam the button. Also nerfing his dps only to make him a bit bedder in a group that doesn’t play 3 meele and 1 physical range. and too top it all of next theny make a raid tier were there is sorry downtime except e12s phase 2 in one mechanic. Like bravo

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Originally Posted by Rymi64

I believe personally they got rid of time dilation to nerf ast potential compared to the other healers. I don't understand why they got rid of the stun on opposition though, the extend effect i can understand but why the stun.

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The old time extention gave AST a very unique gameplay aspect due to the various interactions it had with it's own healing kit, now it's been reduced to "press oGCD when damage". They traded a very interesting mechanic for more boring oGCD healing instead of giving WHM something that can compete with it.

Hey Absurdity,

I can not agree with you here. The change to play around the stances was a great idea. The time aspect has to be gone for balance resone. To extend hots,mana reg, cards was in every too strong. So it was rly hard to balance for dev. Team. Remember all changes on the Stances to balance the hole system. There were to much multiplyer to handel with. The AST is the healer with stackable hot and shilds. The new CO is (since 5.1!) great for both stances. I would like the time aspect more for a healer that works in main time with hots. #Timemagehealerpls. The AST feels great and is special because in both stances the skill make the same but Master the Healing (Diu) or Mitigation (Noc).

Its just ok, the cards are more interesting then the lilies or fae of WHM and SCH but that's not saying much. AST suffers from the same problem as all the healers, too much downtime and not enough to do, even when AST needs to think more about what they're doing with their cards to make sure they line up with burst phases that's still not that much

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

That's pretty much how MMOs are, though. Overall this doesn't even change much, there are some which basically become completely different games through expansions.
Fact is, devs look at numbers and see what most people want in that moment, in theory (I say in theory because some decisions are just weird and seem to be dislike by almost everybody). Which will never be what everybody wants. With changes, there will always be something people like and people dislike. The same thing can be considered an improvement by someone and ruining the game by someone else.
Fact about veterans of a class I imagine is the same way as they regard veterans of the game, aka they have the same interest in retaining veterans as in attracting new people, both to the game and to the specific job. They can't just keep one of the two sides in mind, espcially from a business point of view.

As for BLM, I don't know, I feel instead that it changed a lot over the expansions. It went from a mindless turret to a very complex and more mobile class. Sure, the second part fits more with the current game design needing more mobility, but the first seems more a class design change to me. And I remember a thread here that asked people which class they like better at lower level, and most people answered BLM, and current low level BLM is more similar to the old one so it means a lot of people liked the class much better before.

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Interesting points, I would disagree with a few points:
1-Stating that "this is how most MMOs work" - this is how some MMOs work. Unfortunately, this can really turn off their customers because they can result in FOTM jobs and/or extremely poor class/job balance during an expansion, with ensuing poor QOL for some players.
2- Stating that devs look at what players want "in that moment" - OK, maybe a junior dev not a game designer - they don't just listen to whomever screams the loudest, or look at short-term returns. They need to look at the impact of design decisions, and the longer-term impacts, plus many other impacts such as the impact to the community, which you did touch on - such as veteran and new players.

Now, I am not against change, but I am not for change just for change's sake. If the dev team gets good feedback from the community, and the job continues to fit the game design - why change it?

However, if it gets bad feedback, or if the game paradigm changes, those could be good reasons to make changes. Not because as Seraphor is saying - someone sees "new expansion- must change the job". Not unless it has issues. Otherwise I get my money's worth by new story content or other expansion features.

So I do not want every job to be overhauled at each expansion. Jobs may end up with some changes second or third expansion and that's fine by me. In the interim, in minor patches the dev team may however need to put in minor tweaks to a specific job to adjust it.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Now, I am not against change, but I am not for change just for change's sake. If the dev team gets good feedback from the community, and the job continues to fit the game design - why change it?

However, if it gets bad feedback, or if the game paradigm changes, those could be good reasons to make changes. Not because as Seraphor is saying - someone sees "new expansion- must change the job". Not unless it has issues. Otherwise I get my money's worth by new story content or other expansion features.

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In AST case it did get negative feedback though. True, some AST mains were enjoying it, but on the other end of the spectrum people were also always complaining on how too complicated and rng cards are, at least, if not at more.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

In AST case it did get negative feedback though. True, some AST mains were enjoying it, but on the other end of the spectrum people were also always complaining on how too complicated and rng cards are, at least, if not at more.

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Uh... no they weren't. At least not on here or reddit. The occasional mention of Balance being too good came up but this forum was completely dominated with complaints over how awful WHM was. There was hardly any mention of Astro except it being OP.

I leveled AST and WHM at the same time right after the change to sleeve draw (from 3 cards to 1). I felt like early on I enjoyed AST more since the card system gave me stuff to do and was really fun. Around 60 or so, they were about the same for me, and once I hit ShB I liked WHM a little bit more.

I enjoyed AST though, didn't really see many problems with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wolfsbane706

Do you enjoy it? That's the question. Do you have fun playing AST? Speaking as someone who didn't get a chance to play AST til Shadowbringers released (and we were well into 5.1 anyway) I do have a lot of fun playing AST. I feel like I always have something to do when I'm playing the class and I like the new abilities it got in 5.0.

I just want to express some positivity for the job given all the dislike for its 5.0 incarnation that gets thrown around.

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this is... a hard question to answer. I first started playing Astrologian in 5.x, but I found it still a little boring, albeit a lot more interesting than the other two... I was disappointed in Astrologian, to put it simply. The cards were boring and dull, despite all of the things being said in cutscenes, while I was looking forward to Lv50 since Lv30, as Nocturnal Sect seemed to like where the fun starts, as the only appeal that I found in Astrologian, with its cards being boring and dull, was this sect thing and the ability to switch between Regen and barriers.
...then I learned about old Astrologian, my disappointment deepened, and I got a feeling of "the grass must have been greener on the other side..."
...then the EndWalker reveal happened, and the only appeal to Astrologian for me, its sects and the ability to switch between Regen and Barrier, is being removed... now I plan to ditch Astrologian, while I still have no attachment to it, since I see none of what I would refer to as improvement coming, and only a change that I do not like.
I may or may not go back, if 6.0 Astrologian looks of interest, but other than that.. I am going to walk away before it hurts to walk away, for now.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Thing is, they have to change the jobs up with each expansion. Just as many would complain that they haven't added anything new to the jobs as those who complain that things were changed, you're essentially buying a new game, you want something new for your money. And they can't just add new abilities to the existing skill sets or we'd get an unmanageable number of skills to use. So some skills have to be cut to make way for new ones, which means reworking the job.

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Just this alone feels to me like, and I often refer to it as, one of the most serious problems with FFIXV... A far better thing to do with a large amount of actions, too many for a player to work with all of the actions, is to create in-class diversity. I find it mind-blowing stupid that FFXIV never did this, and has always done this delete actions BS, instead.

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Originally Posted by Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai

Just this alone feels to me like, and I often refer to it as, one of the most serious problems with FFIXV... A far better thing to do with a large amount of actions, too many for a player to work with all of the actions, is to create in-class diversity. I find it mind-blowing stupid that FFXIV never did this, and has always done this delete actions BS, instead.

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As a fan of BLU, I would be totally down for this, but this seems to run way too close to the connection old SCH/SMN had that they hate.

I start this game on stormblood days so I had the experience of ast 4.0 but certainly not the 3.0 which would be heavens ward. Ast seem overwhelming at first but as time passes I slowly learn to get it.

In early sbh tension started kicking me when they first had the nerves to nerf our potencies on our heals and had to fix it some time during the first set of eden raids. Healing was a pain as ast.

Stormblood card systems most cards people claim was not needed or useless or too rng heavy overall but for me every card cept spire when they remove tp became useless. you can either up a pot of another card, increase dura or aoe it for a party effect and extend it furthur with old celestial Op. I had a use for bole because in light party trash pulls simply putting a bole+aspected noct shield felt like a good solid min to help dps, I found arrow is nice for a whm/sch/blm or even myself since it reduced weapon auto, spell/skill speed by 20%. My friends who play blm loved this card because at that point they felt they did not need to waste their ley lines and can use it in real emergency situations. Ewer my personal fav card was good for if I died and already had used lucid I could use this for some mp recovery specially if I had enhance its potency or duration of keeping it. bards/monk love that nice +10 crit damage which ast at the point was the only one who had a way of giving a crit buff ofc this becomes 5% for everyone if aoe, more crit = more burst heal/dps. Balance I use this as normal but dont only target that one card, last spire was the one i will usually just burn it to make other cards aoe when needed , spire was only nice for ninja when tp was around, I heard ninja skills use to use up tp so they find a need for this. (note losing ewer was the start of ast biggest night mare only having lucid to restore mp).

Now I hate repeating myself but again this mess shb card system, first I confess when it happen I was really stubborn and at one point was not using the cards as I was getting use to the new added skills of sb. I felt so useless with this new card system, it has no utility and is water to just single target, you have a tank + 2 melee dps, makes 3 cards only half effective, or you can draw the right card but guess what? You have the seal for that card and at the point may minor it or redraw to get your seals. There is too much to do for this divination system and is such little award and is more annoying on a rng bases to me vs stormblood card system rng and lord have mercy this lame water down sleeve draw sure you get the seal you are missing at 100% but overall old sleeve draw was better, I could give my tank+dps the necessary card slap on divination and if my team mate is a ninja and ta the boss, oh the glory of seeing hp go from 100% to 70 60% and since I have another bonus lord or lady ready as soon as that card comes off w.e dps I throw it on em in a few seconds now meh cant do that. Also carding a player too early before server ticks and register a battle makes the seal dont even count :rolleyes: I tolerate at least the short cast times and better regen and shields but it aint cool I confess that we took over whm/sch jobs and get our power in our cards strip which is now having us memed as copied better whms or schs. So still love ast its tolerable but not as fun as its stormblood counter part on the card system aspect at least.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

(snipe)

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Hey Ice Blue Ninja,

I made a Idea and I want to hear you view of Point about my Idea:

My idea to find a compromise to the cards of the AST
Maybe you like this way to play the cards

I mainly play SMN and have only played a very little pre-ShB AST. Currently it may be my favorite job in the game between the aesthetics and mechanics, I've even considered making it my main though I don't particularly like the idea of being a healer main without a static group to play with.

I love the healing cds, I only wish I had more use for them (haven't done any difficult content with it). I love the short cast times making it easier to move around and weave in cards. Being able to plan ahead but not be completely punished if you plan a little late is very nice. And it's sooooo pretty.

There are pros and cons to both card systems, I do very much miss having all the choices and the cards having more individual meaning but it was also kind of a mess tbh. A very cool and intriguing mess. The current system is a bit dull but at least it's something to do and there is a tiny bit of planning and potential variance involved. There is a lot to be said for a nice, clean system even if it lacks in flavor or depth. That's probably one of the more difficult points of game design when you have to choose between what's cool and flavorful vs what's fun and not frustrating. I think they've done a good job.

It also really hurts to lose the Sects as being able to switch modes was one of my favorite aspects of AST (especially since I only ever pug) but if I had to choose I prefer regen over shields anyway. I just hope SE gives back a bit after what they've taken away. One can only hope.