Too much memorization, not enough RNG on raid fights

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Originally Posted by Reap00

I live on the east coast. The servers are on the west coast. I ran and cleared titan unreal with no problems whatsoever this week. That fight is infamous for "server tick" and "lag" problems.

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Yes...back when EU and NA servers were located in Canada and had 300+ms ping, please tell me more about how a problem doesn't exist because you haven't encountered it yet.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Yes...back when EU and NA servers were located in Canada and had 300+ms ping, please tell me more about how a problem doesn't exist because you haven't encountered it yet.

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We can bat this back and forth all day. You aren't going to change my opinion. You can keep trying if it makes you feel better though.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

We can bat this back and forth all day. You aren't going to change my opinion. You can keep trying if it makes you feel better though.

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I'm not trying to change your opinion because I already know from several previous posts that you think this game is perfect in every way and has no problems, obviously nothing anyone says is gonna change that.

I'm simply pointing out that your opinion doesn't outweigh reality.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

So in other words...World of Warcraft?

WoW does what I think you are saying. It rewards not just pattern memorization but also a person's ability to get themselves back into a fight. It's way more chaotic but rotations in WoW are a lot simpler to compensate.

I think a WoW style encounter with FFXIV rotations would give people migraines.

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But I've seen, at least in the last xpac, WoW over complexifying their boss mechanics design to the point that you're completely required to look up for a video beforehand to even grasp the basics, as the dungeon journal descriptions won't help a lot.

I agree with you, though, in the sense that if same boss mechanic complexity would be inserted into XIV's design it would be extremely difficult. But maybe - some - elements can be incorporated without tipping any scales.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

But I've seen, at least in the last xpac, WoW over complexifying their boss mechanics design to the point that you're completely required to look up for a video beforehand to even grasp the basics, as the dungeon journal descriptions won't help a lot.

I agree with you, though, in the sense that if same boss mechanic complexity would be inserted into XIV's design it would be extremely difficult. But maybe - some - elements can be incorporated without tipping any scales.

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I think maybe, yeah, some WoW design could be brought over to FFXIV but we'd need our rotations cleaned up a bit. This is actually something I strongly support. Buttons in this game need a trimming. A good place to start would be consolidating buttons for abilities that have no business being on separate buttons like summon/enkindle or fire iv/blizz iv. Being mutually exclusive you can't use one if you are able to use the other. No skill involved.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

In ARR titan. There are tons of videos of people being off the AOE markers far in advanced who then get thrown off the arena.
Anytime through the games history there are videos of fights where people are off aoes but still get clipped by them. Including in my group from last night fighting emerald ex.

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Just to clarify, are they solely using the AOE marker to judge whether they dodged the attack or did they watch the cast bar too?

The AOE marker shows you the area of effect of the attack, but it's the cast bar that signals the attack itself (if it has a cast bar). So you need to move out of the AOE marker before the cast bar (whether visible or invisible) finishes, and if people are not paying attention or try to keep uptime until the last seconds, that's not really a server tick issue.

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Originally Posted by Arngrim_Greyashe

Not true at all.

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No it is 100% true. Ask around to anyone who has been doing endgame since the start of this game about issue of getting hit outside aoe in this game.

So you and anyone else who claims other wise are 100% wrong.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

No it is 100% true. Ask around to anyone who has been doing endgame since the start of this game about issue of getting hit outside aoe in this game.

So you and anyone else who claims other wise are 100% wrong.

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Actually, you are 100% wrong. I've been playing XIV since 1.0 and have done end game content just fine while living within the US. Just because YOU are having problems doesn't mean the majority are. All of my friends haven't had issues and we all live in the US. Stop spreading misinformation.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

No it is 100% true. Ask around to anyone who has been doing endgame since the start of this game about issue of getting hit outside aoe in this game.

So you and anyone else who claims other wise are 100% wrong.

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Most people getting hit "outside" aoes don't get hit because server tick said so but because they moved out too late.
It's the castbar, wether visible or not, that determines wether your position gets registered as inside or not. Which is something that frequently gets 'abused' like on e4s during fast pattern when you moved into the bombs when the animation wasn't even finished or during e8s when the 2nd knockback mirror registered Surecast/ Arm's Lengths as still being up even though the animation and actual knockback came way after it ran out.
Corpses outside the actual aoe range is due to someone moving too late not due to server ticks.

While there have been issues with ARR Titan due to server location that was many, many years ago. They admitted it, they changed the server location and it was a lot better after that. If people still get hit nowadays it's because they greeded and moved too late, wether EU, US or JP.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

You don't have to memorize anything. You still react to the mechanics regardless of order.

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Not true. There’s about 4 current bosses that you have to remember a certain prompt and get close to them or they’ll knock you off the ledge and you’ll instantly die because you didn’t remember.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

That was what finally broke and destroyed my desire to raid in this game. It does not belong in a casual / story mode raid, its too complex, too fast, too unforgiving. I have a bad short term memory so that mechanic is just never going to click for me. After trying the encounter four separate times with an average death count of twelve per run, I just quit and walked away, destroyed, dejected and crushed. It was the most soul crushing experience I had in this game so far and I... I just don't want to feel that way again. The second half of the new trial also left me feeling battered and bruised so I don't have that as a refuge. So I have really nothing left to do... its sad and just breaks my heart thinking about it. I never wanted to be here but here I am and it just brings me to tears at times thinking about it.

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It’s a difficult balance but I do agree normal mode is becoming a bit too unforgiving with mechanics for some players. Perhaps they’d be better off just not having a normal mode, like they did with Bahamut originally or maybe just have it as a cinematic thing with dungeon boss difficulty.

But then they’d need to give other content to do. It really sucks that they held back Ishgard restoration and Bozja/blue mage so the WoW refugees can do their raiding.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

It’s a difficult balance but I do agree normal mode is becoming a bit too unforgiving with mechanics for some players.

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I have to ask...how? Just how? This most recent normal tier has been the easiest normal raid set in a long, long time. It is very forgiving. I would argue that it's too forgiving for just about every type of player. If this is how people feel about challenges...it's no surprise that we are at this point. I realize how this may come across...but this is how I feel, and I truly can't fathom the idea of Eden's Promise being "unforgiving" in any way, shape or form in any universe.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I have to ask...how? Just how? This most recent normal tier has been the easiest normal raid set in a long, long time. It is very forgiving. I would argue that it's too forgiving for just about every type of player. If this is how people feel about challenges...it's no surprise that we are at this point. I realize how this may come across...but this is how I feel, and I truly can't fathom the idea of Eden's Promise being "unforgiving" in any way, shape or form in any universe.

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Because if you don’t know a tactic you get one hit killed. It’s not uncommon to see most of the raid die to something like a knockback.

You seem to be one of the ex WoW elitists, but you have to remember that this game was never really built around that style.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Because if you don’t know a tactic you get one hit killed. It’s not uncommon to see most of the raid die to something like a knockback.

You seem to be one of the ex WoW elitists, but you have to remember that this game was never really built around that style.

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I disagree. This game gives plenty of res ability, and wiping on trials and raids simply mean starting straight at the boss or with shortcuts for alliance raids. It works with one-shot mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Because if you don’t know a tactic you get one hit killed. It’s not uncommon to see most of the raid die to something like a knockback.

You seem to be one of the ex WoW elitists, but you have to remember that this game was never really built around that style.

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So...learn the mechanics, and don't get one-shotted in the future. That's how most everyone learns. That isn't even a "WoW elitist" thing, which I am not by the way, though I have played WoW. That is just common sense. Obviously everyone learns at a different pace, so it might be somewhat difficult for some to catch on to, but it isn't an impossible task. I have seen many raids come back from a near wipe in this game, mostly because there is a lot of forgiveness in the design. Someone dies? Healers can get them back up. Got a RDM? They can resurrect 2 players in a matter of seconds. The normal modes in this game provide a lot of room for trial and error, even to the brink of a full wipe, but can still be recovered. Eden's Promise...even more so. Again, it's the easiest normal tier in recent and not so recent memory. But sure, I guess I'm an elitist because I view things objectively.

Memorization, welcome to every raid fight ever, where have you been?

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I have to ask...how? Just how? This most recent normal tier has been the easiest normal raid set in a long, long time. It is very forgiving. I would argue that it's too forgiving for just about every type of player. If this is how people feel about challenges...it's no surprise that we are at this point. I realize how this may come across...but this is how I feel, and I truly can't fathom the idea of Eden's Promise being "unforgiving" in any way, shape or form in any universe.

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It’s fricking normal mode, it’s supposed to be forgiving.

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Originally Posted by Ariel_Valmont

It’s fricking normal mode, it’s supposed to be forgiving.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/LV0m4BLmvL2oM/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I have noticed as of late, that a lot of the raid fights are requiring massive amounts of memorization and not enough RNG. While this is great for people with photographic memories, its terrible for people who do not memorize well but have good reflexes. I wish the devs would make more RNG fights that do not consist of a bunch of one shot mechanics if you make a mistake and less repetitive memorization. It would make things a lot more interesting, not to mention more fun... at least... for me.

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If they made it interesting then healers couldn't DPS and then no one could do Savage raids. With memorization, Healers are able to only heal when they're supposed to heal and then they must go back to supplying the much needed DPS or the boss won't go down.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Because if you don’t know a tactic you get one hit killed. It’s not uncommon to see most of the raid die to something like a knockback.

You seem to be one of the ex WoW elitists, but you have to remember that this game was never really built around that style.

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Then you die to it and know better next time. It's not so much knowing everything beforehand but rather paying attention during a fight and learning from it, wether it was you who died or someone else.
Nobody knows any tactics first week and you still clear the fight with a full party of first timers because normal raids are forgiving. It may take a wipe or two but that's not unreasonable for a normal raid where nobody never saw any of the mechanics happening.

You have (theoretically) unlimited resses from healers and may even be lucky and get a SMN or RdM who can help out aswell. Even stack mechanics don't require more than 3-4 people to be alive. And a lot of mechanics are getting reused countless times plus they get telegraphed. And the infamous "just follow someone who seems to know what they're doing" works almost everytime for current raid tier.
The only nasty trap mechanic was imo on e11 the fire burnished glory (?) right after you thought "oh, I got it, I need to stay close to the edge for this" after the lightning one and got knocked straight off instead. That one was an instant black screen on my first run because all 8 people were sent flying, laughed it off in chat and knew better next time.
The other e9-e12 mechanics gave you a stack, you took some damage but it's not "you fail, you die" in normal. And definitely not permanently like on ARR Titan either. As long as one person that can ress stays alive for long enough to ress someone else, you can muddle your way through.

Would be nice if they randomized dungeons for once.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

Would be nice if they randomized dungeons for once.

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Randomize?
How so?

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Too much memorization, not enough RNG on raid fights

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Is also one of the reasons why FFXIV streams are boring to watch.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I don't memorize fights, I just learn what I need to do for each mechanic. Basically the same thing as if fights were rng.

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This is still not RNG.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Randomize?
How so?

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Perhaps the DEVs can start creating dungeons that can be randomized with boss and add placements. Maybe add some randomized rooms that change to different elements or obstacles every time you queue. Maybe one time the room turned into a platform puzzle that rewards players extra loot when completed in time and opens up regardless of pass or fail. Perhaps something like the puppet bunker we got with the hallway being different each time.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

Perhaps the DEVs can start creating dungeons that can be randomized with boss and add placements. Maybe add some randomized rooms that change to different elements or obstacles every time you queue. Maybe one time the room turned into a platform puzzle that rewards players extra loot when completed in time and opens up regardless of pass or fail. Perhaps something like the puppet bunker we got with the hallway being different each time.

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Those are some spicy ideas.
I'm 100% in favor of non-standardized dungeon designs.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Those are some spicy ideas.
I'm 100% in favor of non-standardized dungeon designs.

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They could also add a nemesis system for each player. Where out of nowhere a personalized assassin that we can glamour from the empire targets a player in a dungeon for extra loot. Each time we kill him he grows in skill and level to unlock more customization in rank. Just gives us more to do other than ugh another dungeon run. Shoot let us bring our squad member that we can only see or something for leveling up. Give us more control from the enemies. Like raising a minion into as they tag along in dungeons. Let pets have some sort of effect in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

It would make things a lot more interesting, not to mention more fun... at least... for me.

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Adding layers of RNG is kind of a double-edged sword. Adding it to a fight can accidentally make it boring/repetitive i.e. Shiva (Unreal) using Staff Form exclusively in the second phase and never touching Sword Form. The devs have actually been pretty good with carefully adding in more RNG into the fights recently, though it's more noticeable in Savage mode. I think they've got a decent balance so far.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

So you and anyone else who claims other wise are 100% wrong.

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Don't think it has anything to do with server ticks or latency, and more so having the connection to the servers getting interrupted while attempting to dodge (e.g. packet loss). I've a friend that plays on NA from Asia, and although he's constantly lagging, his connection is pretty stable and he says he doesn't have much problem with dodging things. In the rare occasion he does get server ticked, we actually can see it happen live because either he's just teleporting all over the place or the knockback mechanic doesn't even push him until much much later lol.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Randomize?
How so?

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Different bosses, different available paths. different mobs. Dungeiosna re easier to mix up compared to boss fights by virtue of not beign a single fight aganst a single boss.

Think the Boss map dungeons like the recent added Shifting Obulettes as an example on how bosses in dungeios could be randomized.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

Perhaps the DEVs can start creating dungeons that can be randomized with boss and add placements. Maybe add some randomized rooms that change to different elements or obstacles every time you queue. Maybe one time the room turned into a platform puzzle that rewards players extra loot when completed in time and opens up regardless of pass or fail. Perhaps something like the puppet bunker we got with the hallway being different each time.

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Maybe even add in a story of like, X faction is controlling the area this week or something.

But randomization is good, but I prefer interactivity more. Player behaviors affecting boss responses. Something like UWU's woken mechanics is a good start (though, it became more rigid in the end than I would like) that I'd like to see expanded in less unforgiving/more casual content. My biggest problem with combat in this game is that it doesn't feel like I'm doing actual (videogamey) combat. I find myself playing this game more like a rhythm game at high levels, which is fun once and a while, it's not the experience I want out of my rpgs.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I have noticed as of late, that a lot of the raid fights are requiring massive amounts of memorization and not enough RNG. While this is great for people with photographic memories, its terrible for people who do not memorize well but have good reflexes. I wish the devs would make more RNG fights that do not consist of a bunch of one shot mechanics if you make a mistake and less repetitive memorization. It would make things a lot more interesting, not to mention more fun... at least... for me.

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No, Learn the mechanics or leave. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

No, Learn the mechanics or leave. Simple as that.

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There's a difference between "learn how mechanics work" and "memorize these 100+ places to stand over the course of a 10 minute fight" It's not hard, but it's also not that engaging if that's all you've been doing for 7 years.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

So...learn the mechanics, and don't get one-shotted in the future. That's how most everyone learns. That isn't even a "WoW elitist" thing, which I am not by the way, though I have played WoW. That is just common sense. Obviously everyone learns at a different pace, so it might be somewhat difficult for some to catch on to, but it isn't an impossible task. I have seen many raids come back from a near wipe in this game, mostly because there is a lot of forgiveness in the design. Someone dies? Healers can get them back up. Got a RDM? They can resurrect 2 players in a matter of seconds. The normal modes in this game provide a lot of room for trial and error, even to the brink of a full wipe, but can still be recovered. Eden's Promise...even more so. Again, it's the easiest normal tier in recent and not so recent memory. But sure, I guess I'm an elitist because I view things objectively.

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Your literal argument was ‘I don’t find this hard so it’s easy and everyone can do it’.

That’s a weak argument. I also played wow and raided at a high level weekly. I often die here because a boss will do a random knockback off a ledge which you simply don’t remember if you don’t do it regularly enough without fail.

There is no ‘getting better’ in FFXIV. Simply you just have to remember what mechanics happen and when. It’s why anyone who tries it enough can clear savage and most people who try a boss for the first time die. Too many silly mechanics.

However your argument has changed and you’re now talking about healers and RDM ressing. To which yeah I’d agree with you. There’s less wipes in this tier than in previous ones. Still too many cheap deaths though.

The issue of memorization vs reactive is something I've noticed since I started clearing savage in Stormblood.

Having to memorize a long sequence across 10-14 minutes is getting tiresome. Memorizing "the dance" for all the bosses and seeing the party execute it does provide it's own level of satisfaction and can be really fun to watch and see after hours of dying and mastering mechanics one by one.

That being said, I wouldn't mind a bit more reactive gameplay that tests my reflexes here and there.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Because if you don’t know a tactic you get one hit killed. It’s not uncommon to see most of the raid die to something like a knockback.

You seem to be one of the ex WoW elitists, but you have to remember that this game was never really built around that style.

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So you get raised or the group wipes and you try again, and this time you know what the mechanic does. Theres no real penalty for dying or wiping other than time lost in this game. Its not like this is FFXI where you lose exp or something.

Oh, no, you didn't immediately succeed on your first time trying a fight, what a nightmare.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

So you get raised or the group wipes and you try again, and this time you know what the mechanic does. Theres no real penalty for dying or wiping other than time lost in this game. Its not like this is FFXI where you lose exp or something.

Oh, no, you didn't immediately succeed on your first time trying a fight, what a nightmare.

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Missed the point entirely there sweety. I was simply saying it was not easy as the guy was making it out to be.

There’s a lot of elitists in this game and I really don’t understand why. Nothing you have achieved is special, it’s simple a case of remembering things that you watched in a YouTube video. Anyone with basic motor skills can clear savage given enough time. No real skill involved and no need for such superiority. You will get blown off the stage by the next boss too however pro you are.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Missed the point entirely there sweety. I was simply saying it was not easy as the guy was making it out to be.

There’s a lot of elitists in this game and I really don’t understand why. Nothing you have achieved is special, it’s simple a case of remembering things that you watched in a YouTube video. Anyone with basic motor skills can clear savage given enough time. No real skill involved and no need for such superiority. You will get blown off the stage by the next boss too however pro you are.

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That is kinda a bad statement to make as you can use it to dismiss everything in any game.

Dark souls is not hard you just have to learn the enemy patterns anyone can do it with enough time

DDR is not hard just gotta learn the rythmn anyone can do it with enough time

Animal crossing is not hard you just gotta sink a tonne of time into it to make the things you want, anyone can do it.

Given enough time and effort nothing is really hard to an individual in a video game look at speed runners, lv1 runners, challenge runs, they all probably had horrible performance when they started out but improved as time went on.

But your statement blanketed anything and everything as easy with enough time and quite frankly why shouldn't people feel good when they tackle and succeed against something that took them extra effort to do (savage in this case), the line I draw and where elitism is actually shown is when they gloat and demean others for not doing what they did the "Git Gud" crowd who gives zero advice on how.


As for the thread topic I refer to o10s as why savage raids would probably not be like Rathalos.

O10s had
-randomly designated tank busters, you can have 1 tank take all in the fight or you can have a 50/50 split
-random set of 4 patterns for his flip and spin combinations
-random exaflare patterns with a stack
-random nail positions for add phase

This fight is regarded as one of the worst savage fights by the community for the time it was released in because it was too random with its mechanics, it disrupted many jobs design flow.

The devs could make many 100% random fights but if they start breaking job design flow then there are going to be a lot more negativity towards that style(and there is in Rathalos-i like this fight but I'm a MHW player, o10s-a few people do like it but they are most certainly a minority of raiders from that time) which the devs will off weigh up and find if it is worth it to do.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Missed the point entirely there sweety. I was simply saying it was not easy as the guy was making it out to be.

There’s a lot of elitists in this game and I really don’t understand why. Nothing you have achieved is special, it’s simple a case of remembering things that you watched in a YouTube video. Anyone with basic motor skills can clear savage given enough time. No real skill involved and no need for such superiority. You will get blown off the stage by the next boss too however pro you are.

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Kinda funny how things have come full circle. You are now doing the same thing you accused me of, except this is the real thing. All you really took from my post was "lolthisguyisanelitist". Still not one, by the way. Maybe the word doesn't mean what you think it does. I also stated my OPINION that the latest Eden tier has been the easiest overall, on a mechanical level. I fully believe it though. But I stand by what I said, and that was to learn from your mistakes like everyone else does, among other things. Everyone is capable of this to varying degrees. I never said that would be easy. Just that it is doable. And yes, with enough time and practice even knockbacks are manageable.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Missed the point entirely there sweety. I was simply saying it was not easy as the guy was making it out to be.

There’s a lot of elitists in this game and I really don’t understand why. Nothing you have achieved is special, it’s simple a case of remembering things that you watched in a YouTube video. Anyone with basic motor skills can clear savage given enough time. No real skill involved and no need for such superiority. You will get blown off the stage by the next boss too however pro you are.

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The guy didn't say it was easy point blank. They said that it is easier and more forgiving than past normal modes, and they would be correct.

There are no enrages, no dps checks, most attacks do not one shot, AoE's are telegraphed and very clearly, etc. You can die dozens of times, the only limiting factors being the instance timer and your healers' and raisers' mana.

I really don't know where your talk of elitists and savage has come from, since you were the one who brought it up. They literally just said the normal modes are forgiving.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Kinda funny how things have come full circle. You are now doing the same thing you accused me of, except this is the real thing. All you really took from my post was "lolthisguyisanelitist". Still not one, by the way. Maybe the word doesn't mean what you think it does. I also stated my OPINION that the latest Eden tier has been the easiest overall, on a mechanical level. I fully believe it though. But I stand by what I said, and that was to learn from your mistakes like everyone else does, among other things. Everyone is capable of this to varying degrees. I never said that would be easy. Just that it is doable. And yes, with enough time and practice even knockbacks are manageable.

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Again if you’re saying it’s the easiest tier because it usually gets cleared then I do agree with you. Unless both healers fail at once it’s very easy to complete the raids.

However I wouldn’t say it’s the easiest tier for individual players. There seems to be far more individual deaths than in previous tiers, just less wipes.