Something in 5.3 MSQ felt off to me (SPOILERS)

One of the conversations you can have with G'raha Tia post-MSQ touches on some of this when he's talking about his two identities having merged.

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G'RAHA TIA
You, of course, merged with Ardbert. And as similar as your souls may have been, the fact is you were different people. Thus did your soul gain in density.
How you were able to merge is another matter. Given what we know of the soul, that you possessed distinct memories should have rendered the process more complicated. Though I but theorize, perhaps your strong and shared desire to do so made it possible.

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Which of course doesn't answer what happened to Ardbert's memories after that. G'raha's seem to have simply overlapped each other and he seems to be both selves at once, but we don't seem to have taken on Ardbert's identity at all.

Perhaps we took on his soul but not his memories, and that makes it work more like whatever happens when worlds are rejoined by calamities? There must be something that happens with the soul fragments that get rejoined to us then - either they get stripped of their individual identity with the death of the person who previously possessed it, or they all arrive with some kind of identity attached.

Ardbert's soul is such an outlier because it's still conscious and in possession of his memories after death. We don't have anything to compare it to.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

One of the conversations you can have with G'raha Tia post-MSQ touches on some of this when he's talking about his two identities having merged.

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God, I really need to make sure I speak with everyone post 5.3

The entire conversation was really insightful. The way Graha spoke of how Shtola sees both our souls (both Graha and WoL's I mean) is by them simply being more dense yet "Normal besides that", not two entities existing within it. From that, it really makes me believe that Ardbert as an individual truly passed on, and that his crystal had yet a message left in it such as it happened with all his friends. Urianger finding the crystal then having us deliver it also makes me think so. I don't believe our soul would look "normal" to Shtola if he remained. Really makes me wish I could speak with her directly, but I can't seem to find her in the map! I do remember both her and Ryne describing the WoL's aether/soul as "restored" and "as it used to be" and not enhanced or combined. Had to double check the cutscene (right after fighting Hades) to see exactly what words they were using.

I suppose one can continue to ponder about what each dialogue line means. I have strong feelings about this topic, and I've tried my best to read everyone's thoughts, as I know not everyone agrees with me. I apologize if I ever came across as rude or something, as it was not mine intent! This game just means so much to me and I really wanted to share and read thoughts about the topic.

-Viv

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

God, I really need to make sure I speak with everyone post 5.3

The entire conversation was really insightful. The way Graha spoke of how Shtola sees both our souls (both Graha and WoL's I mean) is by them simply being more dense yet "Normal besides that", not two entities existing within it. From that, it really makes me believe that Ardbert as an individual truly passed on, and that his crystal had yet a message left in it such as it happened with all his friends. Urianger finding the crystal then having us deliver it also makes me think so. I don't believe our soul would look "normal" to Shtola if he remained. Really makes me wish I could speak with her directly, but I can't seem to find her in the map! I do remember both her and Ryne describing the WoL's aether/soul as "restored" and "as it used to be" and not enhanced or combined. Had to double check the cutscene (right after fighting Hades) to see exactly what words they were using.

I suppose one can continue to ponder about what each dialogue line means. I have strong feelings about this topic, and I've tried my best to read everyone's thoughts, as I know not everyone agrees with me. I apologize if I ever came across as rude or something, as it was not mine intent! This game just means so much to me and I really wanted to share and read thoughts about the topic.

-Viv

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Aether and soul aren't interchangeable but two Seperate things.

Feo Ul: look at what you've done to you're Aether its a mess (the nascent corruption from absorbing too much light) and your beautiful soul is full of cracks. (Not the exact wording she uses during the cutscene after we couldnt contain the light and begin changing into a lightwarden but pretty close).

Atleast thats the feeling I'm getting from it. We are expending our soul when we use our Aether either.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Aether and soul aren't interchangeable but two Seperate things.

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Yeah, you're right (loved the Feo quote!). Shtola mentions the WoL's aether being "as it was" and it was Ryne specifically who spoke of our soul getting "restored". I believe they're still somewhat intertwined, not just when coping with the light of the First, but for stuff related to the Echo. But yes: you're right that they're not the same thing. I did a poor job explaining myself, it was my bad.

^_^ sall good also I kinda still doubt it was the crystal. Remember, the Amaro were originally bred to be able to recognize the souls of their Masters. It was why when we first met him he recognized the same coloring with us and saw alot of ardbert within us. (In retrospect he was the first one to see it and kinda hint at who Ardbert was before Hythlodaeus confirmed it. Yes Ardbert and our character love seperate lives and on seperate shards but was ultimately the same soul. As someone pointed out a reincarnation thing. Also, with the crystals of his friends comrades, everyone could see the memories but they could never touch the memories, Giott ran right through Lamitt at the end of her memory because that's all it was a type of hologram and the memories were extremely faded. Its why I highly doubt that what happened was via the faded Crystal of Light.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

^_^ sall good also I kinda still doubt it was the crystal. Remember, the Amaro were originally bred to be able to recognize the souls of their Masters. It was why when we first met him he recognized the same coloring with us and saw alot of ardbert within us. (In retrospect he was the first one to see it and kinda hint at who Ardbert was before Hythlodaeus confirmed it. Yes Ardbert and our character love seperate lives and on seperate shards but was ultimately the same soul. As someone pointed out a reincarnation thing. Also, with the crystals of his friends comrades, everyone could see the memories but they could never touch the memories, Giott ran right through Lamitt at the end of her memory because that's all it was a type of hologram and the memories were extremely faded. Its why I highly doubt that what happened was via the faded Crystal of Light.

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I believe the conditions to Ardbert's crystal were much more circumstantial/specific than everyone else's. I truly don't think the scene would have happened without the crystal. I believe the crystal, combined with how senstive Amaro are to souls basically allowed the whole thing to happen.

Someone also pointed it out, that even Seto himself upon first meeting the WoL states "Strikingly similar, but you are you". If the soul was different/mixed post merging, I think all Ryne, Shtola and Feo would have pointed that out afterwards, but it is described simply as "More dense, yet normal. Restored".

I firmly believe that though Azem's soul was once whole, it can never be recreated as it once was, and thus each individual is their own. Even the WoL tells Elidibus right before he turns into his boss form one of two things: "Those who once relied upon you are no more" or "However hard you struggle, you will never bring back the Convocation", very much pointing that once souls are sundered, the original is gone. Elidibus is on a futile quest. Even Emet-Selch himself had a contingency plan, that if he should fail, he'd leave that last shard of himself around to help the WoL rid Elidibus of his pain and futile duty.

There's a bit more on the themes reincarnation and individuality within the Pixies Quests, but I don't want to spoil that if you haven't played them!

For reference, the entire conversation (and a bonus one):

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...e_post_5-3.jpg

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Really makes me wish I could speak with her directly, but I can't seem to find her in the map! I do remember both her and Ryne describing the WoL's aether/soul as "restored" and "as it used to be" and not enhanced or combined. Had to double check the cutscene (right after fighting Hades) to see exactly what words they were using.

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Y'shtola is in Dawn's Respite (now that we can use that door) and doesn't have anything to say about aether. She's just giving information on Seeker naming conventions that...well, contradicts the Naming Conventions. >_<

TL;DR: Male titles aren't actually about holding territory as she puts it, but even if they were, there's no reason why G'raha shouldn't be currently considered a tia since he's relinquished his role as Exarch. Y'shtola should be correcting Alphinaud on this, not perpetuating it.

At least it's confirmed my impression that the titles are handled more like part of their given name than a surname, in that it's not unusual to always include it when talking to or about them, but it's "not disrespectful" to leave it off either.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Aether and soul aren't interchangeable but two Seperate things.

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They're not interchangeable, no, but it's not "one or the other".

Aether makes up everything. Body, memories and soul are all formed of different types of aether, and evidently Y'shtola can see soul-aether to judge that.

(Which raises the question of why she didn't work out what was going on with Elidibus, or "Ardbert" before we confirmed it was Elidibus, but let's not stare too deep into that plothole...)

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

I believe the conditions to Ardbert's crystal were much more circumstantial/specific than everyone else's. I truly don't think the scene would have happened without the crystal. I believe the crystal, combined with how senstive Amaro are to souls basically allowed the whole thing to happen.

Someone also pointed it out, that even Seto himself upon first meeting the WoL states "Strikingly similar, but you are you". If the soul was different/mixed post merging, I think all Ryne, Shtola and Feo would have pointed that out afterwards, but it is "More dense, yet normal. Restored" somewhat grouping the descriptors we have so far.

I firmly believe that though Azem's soul was once whole, it can never be recreated as it once was, and thus each individual is their own. Even the WoL tells Elidibus right before he turns into his boss form something along the lines of... "Those you wanna bring back are long gone" referring to the Congregation, very much pointing that sundered souls once gone are gone (looking for the actual quote and will edit to the proper one once I find it). That's part of the futility of Elidibus' quest.

There's a bit more on the themes reincarnation and individuality within the Pixies Quests, but I don't want to spoil that if you haven't played them!

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I'm blood sworn with the pixies.. however one thing Ardbert states to seto was how big he had grown... we know that he had only said that to us while he was in spirit form and not when he in his body. Especially seeing as as soon as he was dead he was whisked away to the source then after coming back wandered for 100 years without even going to see Seto. That first time was when seto was talking to us was Walkendorf ( I know I spelled that completely wrong).

Also Iscah yes you are right with some of that though i see the aether more as energy while the soul is more of a jar containing it. I admit my thoughts on it may be a trifle weird lol.

Btw thanks for keeping me occupied while I'm at work both of you I appreciate it and enjoying this convo.


Edit: last edit for this... if I also remember correctly didnt Urianger point out that Ardberts Crystal of light was spent anyway? He originally had the Fire Crystal of light while we started with the opposite water Crystal. *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by Iscah

TL;DR: Male titles aren't actually about holding territory as she puts it, but even if they were, there's no reason why G'raha shouldn't be currently considered a tia since he's relinquished his role as Exarch. Y'shtola should be correcting Alphinaud on this, not perpetuating it.

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Oh God, the whole Tia/Nunh thing!! I was wondering if Graha would keep the Tia after being Exarch. It just didn't feel right to me. Also, gonna go tell Matoya where Shtola is. She should have visited by now.

Edit: Do you know where Ryne is?

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Originally Posted by Rannie

I'm blood sworn with the pixies.. however one thing Ardbert states to seto was how big he had grown... we know that he had only said that to us while he was in spirit form and not when he in his body. Especially seeing as as soon as he was dead he was whisked away to the source then after coming back wandered for 100 years without even going to see Seto. That first time was when seto was talking to us was Walkendorf ( I know I spelled that completely wrong).

Also Iscah yes you are right with some of that though i see the aether more as energy while the soul is more of a jar containing it. I admit my thoughts on it may be a trifle weird lol.

Btw thanks for keeping me occupied while I'm at work both of you I appreciate it and enjoying this convo.

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I too appreciate the conversation! I've realized we're probably not gonna see eye-to-eye with the whole Ardbert situation, but as I've stated before, I just needed to talk about the topic with more people. I couldn't hold it in, it was somewhat eating me. Now we're all sharing different theories!

About the pixies: You'll remember how it is very much clear that An Lad is the previous Titania's reincarnation, yet Tyr Beq very much states how they're thankful you "Set their departed friend free", much akin to how Seto spoke of Ardbert when he receives his crystal. Even though An Lad is the previous Titania, they're also their own new individual. That's why it's really sad how they continue to have all the pain of their old selves, while being now An Lad. Thankfully Tyr Beq, Ezel and the WoL befriend An Lad, but I think it speaks of this whole theme of "being your own self" that runs through all of ShB, with the Amaurotian's stories, the value that Emet couldn't see in sundered souls, Ryne and Minfilia's arc and finally Ardbert passing on through the merge with the WoL. I don't think Ardbert would want to exist as a "forced consciousness" within the WoL. I also feel it'd go against many of the themes in the game, and as for me: It feels horribly intrusive, and why I just won't accept it for my WoL.
(Now starting to repeat myself! > < should stop there)

Though like I said: it's fine if we don't end up agreeing on like "a single truth" or whatever. This has been a lot of fun! :)

Edit: We can see eye to eye on our pixie love tho!

-Viv

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

I too appreciate the conversation! I've realized we're probably not gonna see eye-to-eye with the whole Ardbert situation, but as I've stated before, I just needed to talk about the topic with more people. I couldn't hold it in, it was somewhat eating me. Now we're all sharing different theories!

About the pixies: You'll remember how it is very much clear that An Lad is the previous Titania's reincarnation, yet Tyr Beq very much states how they're thankful you "Set their departed friend free", much akin to how Seto spoke of Ardbert when he receives his crystal. Even though An Lad is the previous Titania, they're also their own new individual. That's why it's really sad how they continue to have all the pain of their old selves, while being now An Lad. Thankfully Tyr Beq, Ezel and the WoL befriend An Lad, but I think it speaks of this whole theme of "being your own self" that runs through all of ShB, with the Amaurotian's stories, the value that Emet couldn't see in sundered souls, Ryne and Minfilia's arc and finally Ardbert passing on through the merge with the WoL.

Though like I said, it's fine if we don't end up agreeing on like a single truth or whatever. This has been a lot of fun!

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lol yeah I remember it and yeah no hard feelings at all. I am enjoying this completely and while I don't agree it is very interesting. =) I definitely agree that the souls are all different no doubt about that, Ies pecially since the person who carried the soul was somewhat different than our PC. However, i saw that scene as very endearing and heart warming. As well as giving him one last chance to say goodbye to his Partner in Crime. But yeah, how can I put this... while there may have been a small possibility that the crystal helped with it, I sort of doubt that was likely.m, but thats still my opinion. Lol of course I end up losing my train of thought go figure

Edit: should we start a we want Feo Ul minion thread again?

Edit 2: so I re read what you said about forced souls.... yeah I absolutely don't think he's living as a forced soul inside of our body... maybe that is were the whole wires crossed... I'm thinking as in hes completely merged with our PC and has become one with us, however that doesn't mean that he in essence is truly gone. Nor does it also mean that we could call upon his likeness and voice whenever we pleased, best example was when we desperately wanted to talk to him but Elidibus showed up in said Ardbert's meat suit. I also don't think we magically called him forth but with our help and Seto's ability to see his Master's soul (and it being merged with ours) that we could help bring it more towards the front (so to speak) and give them the final farewell and closure. The Pc also acted more as an intermediary for the two while most of the speaking was going on via more of a Soul communion (via minds eye or third eye for Seto) and we just got to hug a giant amaro for it.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Edit: should we start a we want Feo Ul minion thread again?

Edit 2: so I re read what you said about forced souls.... yeah I absolutely don't think he's living as a forced soul inside of our body... maybe that is were the whole wires crossed... I'm thinking as in hes completely merged with our PC and has become one with us, however that doesn't mean that he in essence is truly gone. Nor does it also mean that we could call upon his likeness and voice whenever we pleased, best example was when we desperately wanted to talk to him but Elidibus showed up in said Ardbert's meat suit. I also don't think we magically called him forth but with our help and Seto's ability to see his Master's soul (and it being merged with ours) that we could help bring it more towards the front (so to speak) and give them the final farewell and closure. The Pc also acted more as an intermediary for the two while most of the speaking was going on via more of a Soul communion and we just got to hug a giant amaro for it.

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I really liked your second edit. Even if the crystal plays less of a role than what I give it credit for, Seto's unique skill would still make the situation very specific. This is probably one of the best interpretations I've read so far. It addresses both the scene and how Ardbert isn't really a conscious forced presence within the WoL. It may not be a full-agree with everything, but picture that: we actually share some kind of middle ground here, so that's something! :)

And YES I SO want a Feo Ul minion. Fuck, I'd do a whole set of quests with Feo about whatever just for the sake of having more of the character. I loved so much that one scene right before going to The Tempest for the first time where they are like "You know, I could just give you my crown. You could be in the castle and all of Il Mheg would rise to defend you from anything" or something like that. The plot is at a super low point, the WoL is pretty much a walking corpse, and here comes Feo with this beautiful and incredibly selfish solution that could actually work, and even though both the WoL and Feo know there's no way they're taking that solution, Feo bringing it up at all just put a smile on my face. Kinda made feel like... "Even if all goes to hell, this could still work" and like gave me this tiny bit of joy during a very dark time in the story.

So yeah: More Feo Ul Please!!
Edit: And more fae-themed glamour sets

-Viv

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Oh God, the whole Tia/Nunh thing!! I was wondering if Graha would keep the Tia after being Exarch. It just didn't feel right to me. Also, gonna go tell Matoya where Shtola is. She should have visited by now.

Edit: Do you know where Ryne is?

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I haven't seen Ryne, no. Maybe she's around the Eden areas?

The thing with the titles is that there are only two options, and tia is simply the default state of not being a nunh.

There are two ways of becoming a nunh: he either finds a tribe and defeats the current nunh to claim the title (in which case the ex-nunh becomes a tia again), or claims new territory and starts a split tribe.

Arguably the act of founding the Crystarium could be construed as claiming new territory for a tribe, with the slight technicality that there's nobody else in the tribe... but it would be entirely for his own amusement as he's a world away from anyone who would recognise the claim. And in any case he's all but abandoned that identity and doesn't expect to ever reclaim it.

And now? He's no longer leader of the Crystarium and doesn't hold that territory, so he's lost any claim he might have had. Thus he defaults back to tia.


That said, for a while after 5.0 I was referring to him as "G'raha Exarch" when differentiating between him and his younger self, since it fit the pattern and calling him "the" Exarch seemed a bit impersonal, but I think then once we got the patch quests it was clearly how the characters continued to refer to him in person so I stopped doing that.

I don’t see it as Ardbert speaking to Seto at all. In my opinion, since we asked Seto to close his eyes, I felt that it was me who did the speaking and asked Seto to “suspend disbelief a bit”, and me who wanted to provide Seto closure. Of course I knew a lot about Ardbert hence I would know the things I needed to say. In that way, Seto, missing Ardbert so greatly, was able to suspend disbelief, even purred uncontrollably when we petted him, and reconnect in a way with Ardbert, even though it was just me.

all in all crossed wires and me badly explaining myself was the issue LOL and YES FEO UL minion!!!

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Originally Posted by Iscah

For reference, the entire conversation (and a bonus one):

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...e_post_5-3.jpg

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Something about that conversation is really starting to bug me. His line about "being possessed of his younger body" suggests that we're talking to the Exarch, while his line about merging with himself identifies the Exarch as "the older me", implying we're talking to the younger G'raha Tia.

He possesses memories of being both people, of course. And he's lived from both perspectives. But with the way he talks, it seems less like one person with two people's memories and more like two separate people sharing the same body. Who have all the same memories, but still think from their own perspectives. And they don't even realize they're doing it, since they still see themselves as one person.

Between this, everyone and their mother treating Minfilia like she's completely gone and Ryne has fully inherited her powers, while Ryne herself seems to treat Minfilia as a distinct entity existing separately within her, and the Seto and Ardbert scene, where a man who apparently shouldn't exist anymore can hold an active conversation with his old friend...

All this soul merging stuff feels a little too convoluted for my liking at this point.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

All this soul merging stuff feels a little too convoluted for my liking at this point.

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Yes, so much yes to this.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

I don’t see it as Ardbert speaking to Seto at all. In my opinion, since we asked Seto to close his eyes, I felt that it was me who did the speaking and asked Seto to “suspend disbelief a bit”, and me who wanted to provide Seto closure. Of course I knew a lot about Ardbert hence I would know the things I needed to say. In that way, Seto, missing Ardbert so greatly, was able to suspend disbelief, even purred uncontrollably when we petted him, and reconnect in a way with Ardbert, even though it was just me.

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Oh! I like this one too! It's a much more simple and even elegant interpretation. Makes the scene it not so much about larger themes or plots in the story, but a much more simple compassionate moment for Seto. It's a very different take! Thank you so much for sharing it!

I'm really so glad I created this thread :D

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Originally Posted by Iscah

For a while after 5.0 I was referring to him as "G'raha Exarch" when differentiating between him and his younger self, since it fit the pattern and calling him "the" Exarch seemed a bit impersonal, but I think then once we got the patch quests it was clearly how the characters continued to refer to him in person so I stopped doing that.

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I've just been calling him "Graha" after 5.0 and I guess I never thought of the whole Tia/Nunh thing up until now. I suppose Shtola is right about using his full name till he says otherwise? I'm so glad he's staying for the long run! I was so sure he was gonna be a casualty of 5.3

Also, I couldn't find Ryne at the Crystarium (checked Ocular too), Eden itself (and the camp outside) or anywhere in Amh Araeng. Hopefully someone finds her soon. Wanna see what she has to say, and I must tell her Dadcred made it safely back to the Source.

-Viv

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Something about that conversation is really starting to bug me. His line about "being possessed of his younger body" suggests that we're talking to the Exarch, while his line about merging with himself identifies the Exarch as "the older me", implying we're talking to the younger G'raha Tia.

He possesses memories of being both people, of course. And he's lived from both perspectives. But with the way he talks, it seems less like one person with two people's memories and more like two separate people sharing the same body. Who have all the same memories, but still think from their own perspectives. And they don't even realize they're doing it, since they still see themselves as one person.

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I've definitely floated the possibility, though if it's the case then it's happening at a more subtle level than the ohter cases we've seen of two minds in one body: Estinien/Nidhogg and Soroban/Genbu, where both get their own named subtitles and switched camera angles as one and then the other speaks.

It alternately seems quite likely to me that even if he has completely merged then it's inevitable that he slips and slides between the two personalities or perspectives because they're both equally recent to him. He can simultaneously remember that a week ago he was at the Crystarium and a week ago (not counting his time asleep) he was preparing to venture into the World of Darkness with us.

We simply cannot comprehend what it would be like to wrap your mind around that experience because our mind and memory are inherently working from a single point in time. His mind would be in two places at once.

He's also most likely still getting used to everything as well. When we see him at the end its been only a few days after his waking.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

I've just been calling him "Graha" after 5.0 and I guess I never thought of the whole Tia/Nunh thing up until now. I suppose Shtola is right about using his full name till he says otherwise? I'm so glad he's staying for the long run! I was so sure he was gonna be a casualty of 5.3

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I was also expecting him to die, though I'm incredibly happy that he didn't. For all that it would have been narratively appropriate for that to happen, and it would have been a good (but sadder) ending regardless, they found a way to pull it off and still bring him back. And he is adorable and I can't wait to see more of him and go on adventures together.

And yeah, no reason to try calling him anything else until he says so - but do note the apostrophe in G'raha. You don't pronounce it but it's there. Or just call him Raha.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Maybe Minfilia's not actually dead. I mean, Ryne doesn't have the Echo—she wasn't able to hear Hydaelyn's voice during the starshower scene in 5.2. And Minfilia did have the Echo, so it stands to reason that despite the whole "Minfilia reincarnation" thing, Ryne and Minfilia's souls aren't fragments of the same original soul. And if that's the case, it leaves me wondering just how merged their souls really are.

But yeah, Ardbert just spontaneously manifesting himself through our body. It was heartwarming, to be sure, but definitely a little confusing.

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I just completed the crystal tower and 5.3 MSQ last week, and I don't remember any of this. I didn't skip any of the cutscenes, but then, I didn't find them very engaging either.

The Ryne bit is easily missed, as she only mentions not being able to hear Hydaelyn if you pick a specific dialogue option in the scene where Moren explains the origin of the Warrior of Light to (You), Alphinaud, Alisaie, and Ryne. If you don't remember it being said, you probably just picked a different dialogue option. But if you don't remember the scene itself, I don't know what to tell you—you can watch it right now at any Unending Journey book in the game.

EDIT: I have screenshots of her exact dialogue, in fact. I found them curious enough on my first viewing to do so, and have been wondering about them ever since.

https://i.imgur.com/ndmf5en.png
https://i.imgur.com/nK3ibQH.png

The bit with Ardbert is during the post-Trial quests wherein you go around the various Norvrandt zones. In Il Mheg, Urianger gives you Ardbert's Crystal of Light and bids you take it to Seto, Ardbert's old Amaro companion in Wolekdorf. And when you do, you ask him to close his eyes, and when he does, you get a fairly lengthy scene in which Ardbert replaces your character model and carries on an actual conversation with Seto.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Yes, so much yes to this.



Oh! I like this one too! It's a much more simple and even elegant interpretation. Makes the scene it not so much about larger themes or plots in the story, but a much more simple compassionate moment for Seto. It's a very different take! Thank you so much for sharing it!

I'm really so glad I created this thread :D


-Viv

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Yes, you should try select the second option “close your eyes”, and it feels more like what i stated here.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

Yes, you should try select the second option “close your eyes”, and it feels more like what i stated here.

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To quote the Level 80 DRK Quest:

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"Now comes your part,
To cloak yourself in the fiction,
To breathe life into the dead,
To give a voice to the voiceless..."

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I think I'm glad to prefer your take, and not just because I find the alternatives to be unsettling—it really does fall in line well with that quote.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

Yes, you should try select the second option “close your eyes”, and it feels more like what i stated here.

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Yes! But then I made the mistake of over-complicating my interpretation of the scene. I made such a mess in my own mind with so many wild and unsettling ideas. Yours is such a simple yet perfectly fitting interpretation. I feel like quoting Rosenstrauch word for word:

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I think I'm glad to prefer your take, and not just because I find the alternatives to be unsettling—it really does fall in line well with that (DRK quest) quote.

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I think that's exactly where I'm landing.

I never did the DRK quest (Always was happy with PLD then ended up leveling GNB as 2nd tank) but seeing that quote and knowing both ShB and the DRK story come from the same writer, suddenly all seems so simple! I really need to do the DRK quest line. :)

I'm feeling much better about the conclusions reached in the thread. I was so unsettled/uncomfortable after 5.3 wrapped up, but not anymore! I'm also glad to see that others have too been enjoying the conversation of the thread!

-Viv

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I never did the DRK quest (Always was happy with PLD then ended up leveling GNB as 2nd tank) but seeing that quote and knowing both ShB and the DRK story come from the same writer, suddenly all seems so simple! I really need to do the DRK quest line.

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Gonna drop my +1 here for the DRK quest line. It's easily my favorite among all of them.

Also just going to mention this; don't forget to keep an eye on the DRK quest journal entries as you do them. I won't elaborate any further on that, but still mentioning it because it's easy to overlook and the game never actually points you toward doing so.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Gonna drop my +1 here for the DRK quest line. It's easily my favorite among all of them.

Also just going to mention this; don't forget to keep an eye on the DRK quest journal entries as you do them. I won't elaborate any further on that, but still mentioning it because it's easy to overlook and the game never actually points you toward doing so.

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also gonna drop my +1 for the DRK questline: It absolutely is one of my favourites. It is the best storyline with how it ties in to what has happened to you during the story.

Well Ardbert speaking through the WoL's body is quite different to what we have seen the ascians do for the simple fact that it's clear the WoL allowed Ardbert to have that moment. The ascians don't give the owners of their bodies any choice.

I also don't think the scene with Seto was as literal as it looked. I think we saw Ardbert so we as players could better understand what was happening. I think the WoL told Seto to close his eyes so he would no longer be distracted by how the WoL looked and would be in a better position to hear Ardbert's soul. It may even have been a trick of the aether that made Seto hear his voice.

I look upon the whole WoL/Ardbert/Azem thing like a form of reincarnation. Yes each shard is a different person but so far we have seen that what made Azem stand apart from their fellow Amaurotians are the same things as what make Ardbert and the WoL stand apart from their people. The tireless sense of justice, wanting to help those in need, willing to traverse long distances to fulfill their duty, tackling their problems with the allies they picked up along the way, and of course the burning desire for adventure. They're all different people, but their values and desires link them together.

I understand why OP feels unsettled that the WoL may be suggested to not be their own person however I interpret it as these shards of the soul are pieces of a puzzle. Sure a complete puzzle does display only one picture, but you can still see the edges around all the individual pieces even when the puzzle is complete. Once the puzzle is cut into small pieces, it can never fully merge into a perfect singular item again. I feel it is the same for Azem. Even if the WoL were to rejoin with all the shards of their soul, the pieces while fitting together nicely would not merge into a smooth image. Like a puzzle we would see the image that is Azem, but also all the edges of the other souls combined to make them.

And it is for this reason that I believe the ascian's plan was doomed to fail from the beginning. Even if they rejoined all the souls none of them would be the same as they were before the sundering. We have the Echo from being an Amaurotian, but I think they too would have the Echo of their mortal lives. Once something is shattered it will never be the same again, even if you put every single piece back together. The ascians' success would have been met with the harsh reality that you cannot unbreak something back to perfection. You can merely glue it back together.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I interpret it as these shards of the soul are pieces of a puzzle. Sure a complete puzzle does display only one picture, but you can still see the edges around all the individual pieces even when the puzzle is complete. Once the puzzle is cut into small pieces, it can never fully merge into a perfect singular item again. I feel it is the same for Azem. Even if the WoL were to rejoin with all the shards of their soul, the pieces while fitting together nicely would not merge into a smooth image. Like a puzzle we would see the image that is Azem, but also all the edges of the other souls combined to make them.

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I can see what you're saying, and I can respect it, but I just can't agree with it. I don't think there's any puzzle to be built at all anymore. Every single soul is unique, and each one of them is their own person. No matter how similar or compatible two souls may be, the end result of something as volatile as a merging is the dominant soul just becoming more dense/strong with whatever's left of the other. Seto being able to see traces of Ardbert is the result of an incredibly specific and unique trait to himself. It's not the type of thing that people like Shtola, Ryne, Feo ul or even another Amaro that wasn't Seto could see. Such a unique trait would then let the WoL enact those previously quoted lines from the DRK story:

"Now comes your part,
To cloak yourself in the fiction,
To breathe life into the dead,
To give a voice to the voiceless..."

This is why the Ascians' plan is so unforgivable and why it is so important to stop them. They're willing to end million of individual existences for the sake of attempting to restore souls/people long gone. The cost is just inconceivably high. A dominant soul in a merging isn't even the original one either, but an entirely new individual. There's nothing left to reconstruct. Elidibus failed to see this.

Someone said it before, and I agreed with them: Not a fan of this whole "souls merging" thing. I hope future stories in the game can put the whole thing behind. It's too convoluted for its own good and for me to enjoy it really.

Thank you for your fully honest reply! It was an interesting read regardless of differences in opinions :)

-Viv

I don't like this aspect of the game as well. Why did they made it so that Ardbert kind of is "inside me"?

If it were so that because we a part of the same sundered soul, Ardbert's soul somehow manages to travel with you. But I hate that my character is speaking with his voice, and that he kind of controls my body or whatever to hug his Amaro.

But I also didn't like that aspect of the Dark Knight questline (except for the Sidurgu and Rielle arc, I really enjoyed that one). It was interesting and well written, sure, but I'm not seeing my character as a psychopath with multiple minds, not even remembering things they've done.

I'd prefer it if my character just were herself. Or having a personality disorder is optional, through the answers you can give. It's enough if I'm not exactly normal irl. ;D

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Originally Posted by Limonia

I don't like this aspect of the game as well. Why did they made it so that Ardbert kind of is "inside me"?

If it were so that because we a part of the same sundered soul, Ardbert's soul somehow manages to travel with you. But I hate that my character is speaking with his voice, and that he kind of controls my body or whatever to hug his Amaro.

But I also didn't like that aspect of the Dark Knight questline (except for the Sidurgu and Rielle arc, I really enjoyed that one). It was interesting and well written, sure, but I'm not seeing my character as a psychopath with multiple minds, not even remembering things they've done.

I'd prefer it if my character just were herself. Or having a personality disorder is optional, through the answers you can give. It's enough if I'm not exactly normal irl. ;D

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I know very well how you feel! Many ideas have been shared by everyone, and I really hope you may find something in the thread that can help you put your mind more at ease!

-Viv

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Originally Posted by Limonia

... and that he kind of controls my body or whatever to hug his Amaro.

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While I think the visual transformation was more of a metaphor of what Seto was perceiving, if Ardbert "had control" then it's because we mentally stepped aside and let him have it. Or channelled him through the crystal. Or something.

Whatever exactly happened, we chose to let Seto see Ardbert within us - otherwise we would have simply delivered the crystal and left.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

I can see what you're saying, and I can respect it, but I just can't agree with it. I don't think there's any puzzle to be built at all anymore. Every single soul is unique, and each one of them is their own person.

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This is precisely why I use the puzzle metaphor. Each piece is different. Even if you combine them all to make a single image it does not change that each piece is unique.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

No matter how similar or compatible two souls may be, the end result of something as volatile as a merging is the dominant soul just becoming more dense/strong with whatever's left of the other.

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I think the reason why the WoL is the dominant soul is because they still have their mortal body. We have seen it being said that Lahabrea's sanity began fraying at the edges because he body hopped too much, so we know it is a fact that the body a soul inhabits can have very real effects on it.

As for how the WoL can "summon" Ardbert, the WoL is in the unique position of being personally acquainted with one of the shards of the soul they're also part of. So they can search their soul for the Ardbert piece because they know exactly who Ardbert is. But they can't for the other parts of their soul because they never met them.

Another thing to point out is Ardbert's "rejoining" with the WoL was not performed like other rejoinings. All the other shards of souls that make up the WoL returned to the lifestream, were taken from their realm by Hydaelyn, and then placed into those with the matching souls. In the case of Ardbert he never returned to the lifestream because of ascian (and then later the Word of the Mother) intervention. Furthermore the WoL was in Ardbert's realm and he gave himself willingly instead of being merely collateral damage that Hydaelyn brought to The Source. This could be another reason why Ardbert can live within the WoL without completely losing his identity. His soul didn't return to the lifestream and he joined with another soul by choice in his own home.

So you could say that forcing souls to merge is volatile because neither party is given a choice, but the WoL and Ardbert didn't force each other into the situation. They willingly merged. Ardbert knew he was in good hands because he knew the WoL wouldn't abuse the power he gave. We have actually seen similar before with Shiva and Hraesvelgr, and their union inspired an age of peace.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

This is why the Ascians' plan is so unforgivable and why it is so important to stop them.

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I completely agree that their plan is unforgiveable but we must also understand that those people have been grieving for centuries while under the influence of a vastly powerful entity. They weren't evil, they were literally suffering from severe PTSD while being forced to tirelessly work towards an impossible goal. They had to be eliminated not only for our own good, but for theirs as well.

At least Emet Selch granted us a smile in the end, likely taking comfort that his friend was still continuing their duties and upholding their values from so long ago despite being a lesser version of what they once were. I think it gave him hope for the mortal races.

The 14th member of the congregation has been reincarnated over and over again across all of the reflections. We are the current incarnation on the source. Ardbert was the current incarnation on the first. Every time there was a calamity, and one of the reflections was rejoined to the source, so was a fragment of our soul returned to us.

The 8th umbral calamity was prevented, but Ardbert's soul still decided to rejoin with ours instead of reincarnating further.

A question somebody asked in this patch, was how we were able to even do so, because we each had our own separate memories and personalities, but that's left open ended.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

...Was that literal Ardbert speaking through me?

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Yes, and no.

You the WoL are the reincarnation of Azem.

Azem was sundered like most into 14 different souls.

there have been 7 rejoinings, meaning you as an ancient are nearly whole at the start of ARR. 8 souls rejoined. Ardbert is your 9th missing soul shard. 5 more soul shards and you are once again fully an ancient reborn.

quick insert theory the crystals you collected in ARR 6 of them, which became "hydaelyn blessing", these never had a physical representation in inventory or anything and from what I can tell they merge inside you when you don't have them out to show, what if these where actually just pieces of your soul, what if you are 100% whole now?

6 (Chrystal shards 1st chrystal is your awakening) + 1 (Ardbert) + 7 (rejoinings) = 14

ohhh!! back on topic...

... so you have now collected a lost piece of your soul, you have gained all his memories, experiences wants and desires, however going into this you were already nearly complete, so the stronger part of the whole. to make the old "Bird" happy, you show him Ardbert and use his memories and voice to talk to him, that was still you. You are now nearly fully complete, and more or less with training able to do anything an ascian can do. Literally the only reason the current batch of remaining ascians can do things you can't is training. Which if you pay attention Zeno is just like you.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This is precisely why I use the puzzle metaphor. Each piece is different. Even if you combine them all to make a single image it does not change that each piece is unique.

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A puzzle implies there's something left to rebuild. I can't agree with the pieces-to-a-puzzle metaphor, because there is no puzzle. A merging will only make the dominant soul stronger at the cost of the other's existence. Elidibus himself was trying to rebuild something that didn't even exist at all anymore.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

As for how the WoL can "summon" Ardbert

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The WoL can not summon Ardbert, or Elidibus would have never been able to get away by pretending to be him.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This could be another reason why Ardbert can live within the WoL without completely losing his identity.

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Ardbert does not literally live within the WoL, and he has very much lost his identity. What was left was is basic essence, and nobody other than specifically Seto was able to even notice a trace of him left in the WoL's soul. Everyone else who's sensitive to souls has called it "Restored" or "Normal, but denser". The WoL simply delivered a final message that almost word-for-word was very specifically said before by Ardbert. There was no new information because there is no more Ardbert to add up more of it. It was merely a gesture of compassion to give the Amaro closure.

Once again dear Penthea: I can see what you're saying, I can fully respect it, but I just fundamentally disagree with what you're saying. I don't think we have to agree with each other, but I least hope we can understand what the other is saying. I do understand what you're saying, I really do! It's a very interesting take regardless of how I feel about it! I just fear I'm not coming across clearly myself.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

Yes, and no.

You the WoL are the reincarnation of Azem.

Azem was sundered like most into 14 different souls.

there have been 7 rejoinings, meaning you as an ancient are nearly whole at the start of ARR. 8 souls rejoined. Ardbert is your 9th missing soul shard. 5 more soul shards and you are once again fully an ancient reborn.

ohhh!! back on topic...[/hb] ... so you have now collected a lost piece of your soul, you have gained all his memories, experiences wants and desires, however going into this you were already nearly complete, so the stronger part of the whole. to make the old "Bird" happy, you show him Ardbert and use his memories and voice to talk to him, that was still you. You are now nearly fully complete, and more or less with training able to do anything an ascian can do. Literally the only reason the current batch of remaining ascians can do things you can't is training. Which if you pay attention Zeno is just like you.

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Oh dear!

I've stated before in the thread in previous posts that I understand the WoL was once the basis for Azem, but that us, Ardbert or any other shard left of that original being became their own person and existence, and that there's no Azem left to rebuild. Emet himself understood this in the end, and left a contingency plan to help the WoL so that we could free Elidibus of his futile effort in rebuilding his lost comrades, which could never be done.

We may have merged with Ardbert through our similar desires, but we did not gain his memories, experiences or desires, only his basic essence to make our souls more dense. Even then, the WoL's soul, as is every other sundered soul is very much complete as they are. That was the whole thing Emet was not able to understand for such a long time. The Hades fight starts with him saying something along the lines of "Exposing our fragmented existence", which is the lie that consumed all of his life. Sundered souls are not incomplete or pieces of a bigger puzzle. They're as valuable and as complete as any unsundred soul. That's what Emet failed to see up until the very end when he finally sees the value in the individual souls left behind by the sundering.

As for Zenos, to me he's the most boring, uninteresting and annoying character to ever be put on XIV. If there's something you find relatable in him that's alright, but please don't compare me to him, though if that's not what you mean I apologize! I may have understood that part wrong!

I'm very sorry if I come across as a bit brash, but I feel very strongly about this topic. Thank you for taking the time to write your reply to the topic!

-Viv

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

There are no pieces-to-a-puzzle, because there is no puzzle. A merging will only make the dominant soul stronger at the cost of the other's existence. Elidibus himself was trying to rebuild something that didn't even exist at all anymore.

The WoL can not summon Ardbert, or Elidibus would have never been able to get away by pretending to be him.

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I think you're taking what I'm saying far too literally. Well I can't explain it any better than I already have. To attempt to do so would just result in me repeating myself.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Ardbert does not literally live within the WoL, and he has very much lost his identity. Nobody other than specifically Seto was able to even notice a trace of him left in the WoL's restored soul. Everyone else who's sensitive to souls has called it "Restored" or "Normal, but denser".

The WoL simply delivered a final message that almost word-for-word was very specifically said before by Ardbert. There was no new information because there is no more Ardbert to add up more of it. It was merely a gesture of compassion to give the Amaro closure.

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Just because they can't see something does not mean it's not there. And given the scene with Seto was without the other Scions, we can't say for sure if they still would have been unable to see anything of Ardbert when he spoke with Seto.

While you may dislike the idea that Ardbert is within the WoL, I dislike the idea that the WoL pretended to be someone they were not and essentially lied to Seto. I personally think it would have been very disrespectful to Seto to do that to him. Certainly the person I imagine the WoL to be would not pretend to be someone else at such a delicate and intimate moment.

I also wonder why you think their reunion needed new information to be authentic. They were saying goodbye in a very short-lived moment, not meeting up for a few beers. The WoL has said goodbye to many people by now, and when saying their farewells they did not always say something only they would know.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Once again dear Penthea: I can see what you're saying, I can fully respect it, but I just fundamentally disagree with what you're saying. I don't think we have to agree with each other, but I least hope we can understand what the other is saying. I do understand what you're saying, I really do. I just now fear I'm not coming across clearly myself.

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You're entitled to your opinions and theories, as I am entitled to mine :)

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Originally Posted by Penthea

While you may dislike the idea that Ardbert is within the WoL, I dislike the idea that the WoL pretended to be someone they were not and essentially lied to Seto. I personally think it would have been very disrespectful to Seto to do that to him. Certainly the person I imagine the WoL to be would not pretend to be someone else at such a delicate and intimate moment.

I also wonder why you think their reunion needed new information to be authentic. They were saying goodbye in a very short-lived moment, not meeting up for a few beers. The WoL has said goodbye to many people by now, and when saying their farewells they did not always say something only they would know.

You're entitled to your opinions and theories, as I am entitled to mine :)

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The conversation was pretty much word for word what Ardbert told the WoL after we returned from Il Mheg, which in retrospect fits with the idea of the WoL being the one speaking, "giving voice to the dead" or whatever, but it's not something pivotal for the scene and I think can be ignored if one chooses to.

And don't get me wrong: I don't like the idea of playing pretends for Seto either. It's just the only interpretation that doesn't drive me crazy or that makes me more angry at the devs for deciding to just puppeteer our character on the spot. The scene itself I really didn't care too much for. If you go over everyone's theories throughout the thread, seems every interpretation has like a hole to poke, which I think is a bit telling of how much of a mess the whole soul merging thing is.

I hope out conversation hasn't made you upset! Like me, I can tell you also have strong feelings about this, and I'm glad you were able to share them! The thread I feel has become a great resource for people to make sense of 5.3's epilogue. I've always believed one of XIV's strengths is allowing each WoL to craft a tell they see best fit for themselves within the bigger story, and as long as we can do that, I believe these conversations are all enriching the subject in a positive way! So again: Thank you very much for taking the time to read and write your answers! :)

-Viv

All I can say about the Ardbert/Seto thing is this:


https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-st...1971177-38.jpg