Regarding Firmament Titles For 5.3

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I'm all for new titles and things to chase, DoH/L badly needs challenging endgame content. However, the current system isn't healthy, it's a test of hours spammed rather than player skill or knowledge and I'm amazed they didn't learn from it.

The ranking system should have been as follows:
-You get 30 sets of materials.
-The Expert collectibles have no collectibility cap or something like 999k.
-You can hand in 25 for the entire season. That's it. The 5 leeway is for very bad rng or dc's.
-Your scoring is based on collectibility rating.
-You can use the practice materials before you go for your final product.

With the above system they could easily allow continuous 10 day seasons throughout the patch, keeping Expert crafting alive. Spam crafting thousands of these in 10 days, never knowing whether someone will bump you down to 13th place at the last minute, is not healthy or enjoyable gameplay.

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I'm surprised they did it the way they did it honestly. I think your idea makes more sense. I did grind crafts out over days for my placement. It was NOT healthy but I thought "It's only this one time if I can get in the Top 12 - Yoshi said you get it you can't do it again" and that kept me going. I don't want to have to do that again.

Also as someone said earlier - there was a sense of camaraderie and good-nature competition. I remember the last night especially in the Firmament where everyone was busily crafting away to get those last ones done to turn in - seeing other crafters that you knew you were in the run with because you'd been watching your progress with theirs on the leader boards everyday - not knowing "Will I stay in the Top 12? Will I get bumped out?" But everyone was talking and laughing and then after the time ended to turn it all in - we all wished each other good luck.

I also have friends who couldn't do it at that time because of other obligations and some who said "I will do it the next season for that title" - because we had been told it would be the same. I really don't want SE to go back on this.

edit: typos

Please keep the same titles for all rounds of the ranking. Otherwise it's just another big punch in the face for most players from SE. And it is not the first time they did something like that.

But hey, most likely SE will say that we just missunderstood their initial statement. And then the statement that we don't need to grind again for the title makes sense, because we can't grind again for a title that isn't available anymore, when all rounds will have different titles. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Caerlona

I think a few things to keep in mind are:
It's okay for minds and plans to change.

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I don't know where you come from, but going back on one's word is NOT okay around here. People made choices based on yoshi-p's word, then, without explanation, he suddenly went back on his word completely when the time came to release the content and did the exact thing he said he wasn't going to do. That ain't cool, man, and it is what is really making all this so unfair.

How did they go back on their word when it was never said the titles would be the same or that people would not be able to rank again. all that was said is this will be the first season and the rankings will be tallied for 10 days.

Uh no, it was said that the titles wouldn't change and old participants wouldn't be able to compete in ranking again.

And if he didn't really mean it, he should have kept his big mouth shut and not said things that he wasn't sure would be the case.

Please show one place where you had seen that.

It was said in a live letter leading up to 5.2. Dozens of people wouldn't be complaining about him saying that if we were all making it up.

Ok please pull a time stamp or a quote. You will have a hard time finding something that was never said but was started by players.

lol okay. You seem to be the only one who doesn't remember yoshi-p's statement on the issue. I'm not spending hours sifting through live letter recaps for one person who doesn't remember something everyone else was keenly aware of.

I remember them very well it seems you do not.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I'm all for new titles and things to chase, DoH/L badly needs challenging endgame content. However, the current system isn't healthy, it's a test of hours spammed rather than player skill or knowledge and I'm amazed they didn't learn from it.

The ranking system should have been as follows:
-You get 30 sets of materials.
-The Expert collectibles have no collectibility cap or something like 999k.
-You can hand in 25 for the entire season. That's it. The 5 leeway is for very bad rng or dc's.
-Your scoring is based on collectibility rating.
-You can use the practice materials before you go for your final product.

With the above system they could easily allow continuous 10 day seasons throughout the patch, keeping Expert crafting alive. Spam crafting thousands of these in 10 days, never knowing whether someone will bump you down to 13th place at the last minute, is not healthy or enjoyable gameplay.



Great you enjoy it, but just wanted to point out that they very rarely ban player bots. They don't seem to be allowed to scan for third party software on individual accounts and unlike RMT sellers who basically announce they're engaging in RMT in open chat, player bots don't openly provide proof.

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25 lol, it takes about 1 hour to make those.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to create any hostile feelings.

You did nothing of the sort has far as i have seen.

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Originally Posted by Sunako_Nakahara

I remember them very well it seems you do not.

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Here, I dug out one of the interviews where he mentioned it. It's pretty clear what he said.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...w_with_yoship/

"Ishgard restoration

There will be a ranking system for the Ishgard restoration. He used the feast as an example and said there will be seasons for it. To avoid the same top tier players from dominating it every season, they designed it so you can graduate and be done with it after you are rewarded for being top** a single time. (note: Alts............)"

This reversal of how seasons work and how there will be 'new' titles and achievements feels like a huge betrayal. I had other things going on during the first season, and felt secure in making the choice to not compete - as we were told in no uncertain terms that future seasons would be the same.

Plus, wasn't the entire point of designing it that way in the first place was so that the same people don't dominate the boards each time, making it more accessible content and to entice more people to give it a shot as time went on?

I can't see who is even happy with this change! There seems no point other than the content equivalent of 'making a quick buck' in having everyone re-compete to be busy for another ten day period. Here's hoping they respond to feedback and keep it consistent with how it was originally pitched since as others have pointed out - many players have made long term decisions on leveling, learning, and competing in this content.

So you have given me a link to a third party saying that he had said this.
https://www.4gamer.net/games/199/G019924/20190614028/
seems to be the interview thats the reddit post pulls from. And the interview doesnt seem to give any information on Ishgardian restoration
beyond that there will be a title. and ranking system.
At the end of the first statement about The ranking he poses a question if he should stop people from ranking again.

I dunno. I'm generally of the opinion that those who want to work the hardest for it should get it. Though I recognize that given the state of botting when it comes to gathering and crafting these days, it's hardly what you would call a level playing field.

You started by saying you would do it one way, you should probably stick to it unless you can show us real good reason to change. Given all of the things going on in FFXIV right now, especially amidst a pandemic, I somehow doubt there's a majorly pressing need to change things up in the realm of firmament titles and achievos.

ランキングといっても長期間にわたるものではなく，フィーストのように，シーズン制に近い形で細かくやっていこうと考えています。 そうじゃないと，いわゆるガチ勢だけが毎回ランキングに入るということになってしまうため，一度でもランクインしたら卒業，という感じにしようかと。”
Though I say ranking, it's not something that extends over a long period of that, like the Feast, close to a Season system form, we are thinking let's do this attentively. Without that, for the reason of only the so-called "tend to do" energy types will become doing the thing of entering the rankings every day, if they do it once they graduate...let's go with that sort of feeling? we said."

Japanese learner here with N2 proficiency, having to delay the N1 due to the Illness. That was the original sentence that was translated, and I did my best literal translation. It does not sound like a promise or him giving his word. It does not seem like the end all be all. But a "let's try this thing to make it sort of like the feast?"

https://www.4gamer.net/games/199/G019924/20190614028/ This link was in the other link posted earlier where someone else did translations.

Just based on your own translation, it seems pretty clear his intent was what was quoted by me. He doesn't have to say "I do solemnly swear" when spouting information for the fans. He said it, we believed it, and now he is saying the opposite. End of story.

The OP in the Japanese thread about this seems to be saying the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

The OP in the Japanese thread about this seems to be saying the same thing.

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You're right, even the JP playerbase seem upset. I guess I just don't get that same feeling of "I thought I was done with this! >:(" because i'm the type of person who was looking forward to the next season anyway, even if I did it on an alt. I'll concede that this frustrates a lot of people and that much is obvious, but I do think there are plenty of people who are okay with this as well. But I guess no one will be completely happy with however it ends up happening ^^:;

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Originally Posted by Sunako_Nakahara

So you have given me a link to a third party saying that he had said this.
https://www.4gamer.net/games/199/G019924/20190614028/
seems to be the interview thats the reddit post pulls from. And the interview doesnt seem to give any information on Ishgardian restoration
beyond that there will be a title. and ranking system.
At the end of the first statement about The ranking he poses a question if he should stop people from ranking again.

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That is how Translation works friend. You get it from Third Party as it's not presented in English except for on screen. By all means. That gives you the Live Letter edition. Go back yourself and do your own research as you don't seem to think it's the case. But numerous people here and amidst the community have stated that's what was said.

Furthermore to those reading this thread up to this point. Please do Share if you agree with either option and make our voices heard. Hit the likes. Y'know, Youtube it lmfao


Edit: Side note. If he did not mean it the way it was taken (even by the JP playerbase it would seem) I don't think they would be looking out to the forums and us on feedback for this change they have made. Just an opinion but does seem to be what's going on

I believe Yoshi P did say that they haven't decided on this yet. If they indeed haven't then now is a good time to voice our concerns. If the JP side of the player base is unhappy about this then you know something went horribly wrong.

If they're not going to bother controlling the cheaters, then they really should not be adding new titles every season.

Keeping things as they originally said they would be means they'll gradually get weeded out as the seasons go on and they get their undeserved top 12 titles.

Sorry all.

To be honest, I don't really mind if we are getting a new title. I am happy either way.

New title? Yay I got to grind again!
No new title? Oh well, I can do other things.

But I feel for those who might feel that they have been wronged. Hopefully we can get a response from SE.

I'm another player who got both titles in 5.21.

I believe the dev team should keep to their original word. Retain the old leaderboard titles and achievements. Give players who didn't get the titles in 5.21 their chance to get them in the future as they were told they would have.

An explanation of why the dev team believes this change is necessary and good for the game would be nice as well. I can only see it causing harm as more players end up encouraged to turn to using bots to get what they want from the game since that will end up the only way to get into the top rankings.

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Originally Posted by Ryuler

A lot of people i have talked to on discord are for new titles me included because i think that the titles should remain exclusive i think their change of mind is great.
I'm happy if they went to a middleground like the titles remain the same but people who got them in x season also get a unique title.

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You can only speak for yourself, not for those you were speaking to in the Discord. If they think the same way as you, get them to come to this thread and share their opinion. Try to prove to SE that most players are in favor of new titles.

Fellow "Saint" here and I agree with the playerbase. I do remember the comparison with The Feast and if you get your Gold/Platinum/Diamond Wolf Title once you will keep it. You're free to do ranked games again, of course, but there isn't any difference between a Season and another.
People will grind in a way or in another because there will be new cosmetics and, anyway, new rankings. I think there should be room for new Saints.

Speaking for myself, I'm fine with the two options. I like new titles and I play in a low pop Server, so even though the first ranks were taken by hardcore players, the ranking wasn't overall so "insane". And I don't think the scenario will change dramatically during Phase 3. On the other hand, still speaking for myself, I do not . . embrace nor love the idea to grind again, assuming that in a way or in another (if the previous Saints are "allowed" or tempted to join again) the scores will be more prohibitive.

But if I look at the community and not at my pockets, I think it's unfair. In my Free Company there are a couple of Crafters who already planned to join the 2nd Season for the Saint title, they couldn't put so much effort back then for various reasons (reminder: 5.21 was released during the early stages of severe lockdowns in Europe. As for now, U.S and S.A countries are facing the very same scenario). So they are utterly disappointed and are dropping the idea to join the Rankings, with reason (i.e: "the very same crafters as before will dominate again and even more because they handle Master Recipes in a more efficient and faster way. I have no chance, even less than before"). It's unfair.

I read with the auto-translate the japanese thread, it's more or less the same as our one. There is a point underlined by the japanese community that I felt to . . share? A couple of players are worried about the "status of the restoration". Without the hardcore crafters, the Server won't be able to complete the Stages efficiently.
Now, I do not know how the Restoration works, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who had the feeling that the Restoration seems to make progress . . on its own lol. The contribution probably helps, I do not know, but my Server (one of the slowest ever, it's small) went from 30 to 38 in like one week, suddenly. Even if it's not true and it's just my impression, I think the biggest part of the "restoration efforts" comes from people who level up their crafters in Ishgard (afterall it's the main purpose of the area/content). This to say . . we shouldn't be worried about Firmament's progress per se.

Again, I give my feedback, stick to Saint :) (and add more hairstyles/leather glamours/parasols ;D)

Personally, as someone who spent several hours a day crafting expert recipes, after writing my own guidelines for how I do them, just to try and keep my spot in the top numbers, I feel that they should keep the titles the exact same. Many in this thread have already brought up the point that this feels like SE is going back on their word from the initial promise. I can already imagine that, on my server, all those lists will end up having the exact same people near the top.

I think to me if they want to add new titles it should be for an amount of score like the mounts were to keep interest after the "season" ends. I remember how quickly the efforts died out after the completion was over and I would love to see more things to work towards after it.

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Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

25 lol, it takes about 1 hour to make those.

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I thought you did Expert Crafts yourself? You're making 30 (the 5 leeway) and you'd never do one in 2 minutes. They don't work like that, generally an average of 4-5. Remember you're fine tuning your method with practice materials first before even starting and you only get those 30 tries so to hit top 12 you're being careful and making every craft count with 0 mistakes and max efficiency. No Patient/Rapid spam and toss the fails aside and go again.

Now 30 crafts is hardly a set number, I'm just tossing ideas out in the moment on the forums and a team of developers could fine tune something from it. But the point is there are far better ways of handling the ranked seasons.

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Originally Posted by Espritduo

I don't know where you come from, but going back on one's word is NOT okay around here. People made choices based on yoshi-p's word, then, without explanation, he suddenly went back on his word completely when the time came to release the content and did the exact thing he said he wasn't going to do. That ain't cool, man, and it is what is really making all this so unfair.

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Exactly. One could say that thinks change between planning and release but they have released the first part of it, have done the first season and never said that it would change. So after the release these things should stick otherwise its just unfair..and honestly I dont even see a good enough reason on why they would go back on their own words? What data and opinions did they get to decide that they would change it?

My main concern is that the system is very flawed and encourages unhealthy habits when playing. It's obvious that nobody is going to get a high score without investing a lot of time into mindlessly crafting or gathering. I wouldn't rule out people cheating which is another issue that complicates things.

I managed to get into the top hundred on Cerberus as a botanist, though only barely. It wasn't an enjoyable experience and I likely won't bother trying again - and when I saw what lengths the top twelve players were going to, I knew I wouldn't be able to keep up at all. I was, however, under the impression that a few days after the initial ranking ended a new one would begin.

That seems like the most sensible system to me. The content is temporary anyway, so does it really matter if a larger portion of players walk away with the titles and achievements? I think that'd allow for a healthier community overall.

I actually sat out the first round because we were told titles and achievements would be the same.. i took my time making my Facet gear and tools since I had planned to do round 2 when all the extreme crafter/gatherers were done.. but i guess that plan is toast now x.x

Please keep the titles the same. I pushed so hard on the first round of titles because then I thought I would just be done for the rest of the expansion. I figured I had a shot when people couldn't figure out expert crafting and the bots took a few days to figure out gathering. With so much coming out this patch, I really don't want to have to dedicate two weeks of spending every free moment in the firmament to win another title.

Agreed. Really mad to hear they were walking back on what they said. Keep the titles the same.

Keep the ranking titles the same please. I got my saint title, only by a very unhealthy playstyle, and I don't think it would be wise for me to do that again. If new ranking titles are introduced every time it will just be the same people going after them, locking out many that want to compete, not to mention the bots that will just make it unfair.

I don't have a problem with new achievements like the ones for turning in 100 experts recipes or the gathering equivalents. At least with those you don't really have to worry about bots and can go at your own pace.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Am I missing something here? The titles are the same. They're just adding a qualifier to show when you get the title (phase 2/phase 3).

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Originally Posted by Ryuler

Holy shit i would love for that to be the middleground solution that's good

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It's not exactly a middleground though. It wouldn't help achievement hunters who would still be after them.
SE could provide no tangible reward at all, no title, and people will still attempt to grind them out for a few achievement points.


If you wanted to showcase what phase you got it in, your lodestone profile shows the date it was earned.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

It's not exactly a middleground though. It wouldn't help achievement hunters who would still be after them.
SE could provide no tangible reward at all, no title, and people will still attempt to grind them out for a few achievement points.


If you wanted to showcase what phase you got it in, your lodestone profile shows the date it was earned.

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So what can they do to give extra rewards so people have reason to try for it again?
Right now if they keep to the original plan there is no reason for people to try get rank 100 again and that sucks since something like this is a good idea.

I'm hoping for some kind of middleground that will allow us to try again for different rewards that's my issue.
Either way i'm going to be going for top 100 again it will just suck if i get nothing out of it because i did last time if that makes sense.

But you do have a point with achievement hunters so why not give the people who rank top 100 more then once something else maybe glamour?

It's a mix of keeping it exclusive and wanting something from the next phase that keeps me from liking keeping the titles.

You have a reason to go back there, there will be new things purchasable with your skyscrips. And I like to think that there are more than 12 Crafters per World willing to rank up, season after season.
There's also a very huge difference between rank 1-100 and 1-12 too.
They could give something new for the 1-100 achievement. Both Beatus/Beata of the Firmament + Ascended, for example. Still being Saint for 1-12. So you could want to rank up a little bit again, hopefully giving room to new twelve Crafters for the top ranks.
Not to mention that another reason to keep doing it, only if you want of course, is the 500k achievement for example. Or the mount if you want to complete the series

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Originally Posted by Ryuler

So what can they do to give extra rewards so people have reason to try for it again?

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The original plan was for players to have no reason to try for the rankings again so they didn't feel stressed and burn out, and to give others a chance to get those titles.

If you wanted titles unique to the Phase, that's what the "Height of ..." achievements were for The New Nest phase. I'm sure SE will be adding another set specific to this next phase. There's 11 titles for you if you do the achievements for each class. I still need to finish up Height of Mining so I'll have them all done myself before it's time to work on the new achievements in 5.31.