Even people in Discord who succeeded in making one said it was down to them just getting extremely lucky. Its coming down to abusing Hasty Touch and Tricks of the Trade again.Quote:
Originally Posted by tdb
-
03-10-2020, 10:32 PMRyaz
-
03-10-2020, 10:39 PMtdbYeah I figured that much, given how I was running out of CP. It seems like it's necessary to use Byregot's Blessing two times to get good collecability ratings, and that's not exactly cheap on CP or durability. Possibly spamming touch actions at 11 inner quiet stacks before Byregot's could be enough to reach the first collectability threshold. It just needs finding the right balance between CP use and durability. I'm sure I can come up with a working rotation if I put my mind to it, but that (and upgrading my melds) requires time which I'm woefully short of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryaz
-
03-11-2020, 02:15 AMLiam_Harper
I got a few at the base 4500 on the practice mats without food. Could have been lucky and getting max seems a fair challenge. That's good, this is our "endgame", we shouldn't be figuring this out day one, so the more challenging the better. I like the concept behind it, adjusting your rotation as you go and being rewarded for smart decisions is a step in the right direction.
The things I'm not impressed with so far:
-Rng. You rely on getting enough good procs at good times.
-The Success Rate proc is not worth it. It only applies 25% to a handful of 50-60% abilities. One miss can wreck a craft. Again, even more rng. They could replace that or buff it.
-Older abilities weren't updated for the new procs. No making smart use of Intensive Synth, Tricks, Precise. Missed opportunity there.
But there's room to tweak and improve it and it's still early days, so I'll mess around before forming a solid opinion there.
The rewards and leader-board on the other hand are unfortunately exactly what I expected.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but currently I can't even find what the rewards are for ranking top on the 10-day leaderboard or how high a "high ranking" must be to be eligible. There are accumulated score prizes or achievement rewards that we can grind out in our own time, but that's a once-off.
As far as Skybuilder Scrips go, you get 60 for the regular grade 2 turn in and 76 for a near-perfect Expert turn in. Both give a kupo Stamp. So if you're grinding scrips, regular turn-ins with 3150 collectibility are miles easier.
Leaderboards are also quantity based, no real limits. Even if you don't max collectibility, you'll probably top if you play all day and spam enough. So more a time investment than skill.
Basically if you aren't interested in spamming collectibles for 10 days all day non-stop to rank on the leaderboard, Expert recipes aren't very useful except the one-time rewards. Our "endgame" is indeed a small piece of side content and now Master Recipes have been drastically simplified, that's it. We got put aside in a corner and told to spam collectibles all day for a vague leaderboard to keep us quiet. -
03-11-2020, 07:33 AMEspritduo
Looking at this I think I'm just gonna pass on it all until the next season. SE screwed me over HARD by pushing this to 5.21 when I planned on making time for it on 5.20. I'm sitting here looking at these grindy achievements (I want the pteranodon mount gimme) and the expert recipes and I am chomping at the bit to sit down, hit a red bull and go nuts on them. But I can't, cuz I have to WORK like a normal, decent human being. Only having like 4 hours a day of free time basically means all this content is off limits to me except for the lightest of playing around with it for funsies. I already went into the patch with 40,000 Skybuilder scrips so I've already bought everything there, and now its just spamming Diadem, which I have already seen everything there is to see there within half an hour of hanging around.
And you know the kicker? I bet when I take my two weeks vacation for 5.31 restoration, SE will release it with the 5.30 patch content. Really aggravating.
Oh and the rewards for ranking are a (non-class specific) achievement title for ranking 1-12th, and another one for ranking 1-100. And that's as it should be. They shouldn't be putting crazy amounts of crazy rewards behind something experimental when they have NO idea how it is all going to shake out and how it's going to be abused or received by the playerbase (I'm looking at you Ocean Fishing). They can add more rewards for expert recipes and ranking later when they have a better handle on how the players are going to do the content.
I will say that I do like how it IS something I can basically put off until I feel like doing it. Besides the ranking thing which as long as SE doesn't go back on their word, will still be there next season and presumably the season after that with the same rewards and less botting/no-lifing competition, I have all the time in the world to do this content. It is all solo, with no party-based annoyances, which means no stressful rush to get the content done before the critical mass of participation fades. Imma go back to ocean fishing for now and just keep trying to get the 5-star fish while I finish reading The Sandman series. (read it, it's really freakin good) -
03-11-2020, 09:32 AMKageTokage
The expert recipes being as difficult as they are at least makes it extremely unlikely anyone will be able to make a functioning bot for them.
Though it's a pity the same can't be said for the DoL classes... -
03-11-2020, 10:48 PMRyaz
So, looking at the ranking for just crp, 3rd place is at 4926 points... 1st place is at 50212.
Something tells me 1st place is cheating. That gap is just too wide to not be and its basically what I was afraid of when they introduced this. -
03-12-2020, 12:18 AMRath
The 5k is like 4 synths. The 50k is 40. It is just time.
-
03-12-2020, 12:49 AMJojoyaIf you play with the math, that 50k+ score ends up perfectly reasonable if the player was spending many hours crafting yesterday. At the mid tier reward, that's only about 140 turn ins and getting a decent percentage of 6k items reduces the number needed even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryaz
-
03-12-2020, 01:03 AMMN_14
These crafts aren't particularly difficult. I got over 60k while just messing around with them for a few hours yesterday.
Somebody doing them over many hours throughout the week will easily score upwards of a million points. -
03-12-2020, 01:30 AMRyaz
Hit my first max quality... Followed by 55k and another max quality. I'm getting there.
-
03-12-2020, 04:08 AMCaimie_Tsukino
I think these Expert Recipes are pretty good. I'm quite happy with the difficulty that it's currently at. It's true that you do depend on the RNG-driven conditions to do them, but that's the primary idea of how a harder recipe should be.
Most of the times, we need Pliants which greatly saves our CP for durab restoration. But if it doesn't appear early, you can still work around it until it appear later -- you just need to know how to handle a late Pliant! The total number of steps are quite long, so it's only natural that you'll encounter a few Pliants eventually. In the case that you really just got 1 or 2, then maybe really bad luck, and the craft will fail. But otherwise, there's a lot of time/steps for buffering.
The same goes for the all-hated Hasty Touches. Unlike ARR, which 3 to 4 failed Hasty would screw you up completely, here we can fail a bunch of Hasty and it'll still be fine. So even though we always say "actions that do not succeed 100% is a bad idea", it still somewhat works out here since there's a lot of buffering for the failed touches. -
03-12-2020, 10:18 AMNandrolone
Honestly, this whole expert recipes backlash just proves how spoiled the community is when it comes to accessibility and simplification. Most of the players are so used to Yoshida just handing them things on a silver platter with no rng, no difficulty, no locking, etc.
Then, when he does it once...on content that is optional, no less....people just want to cry “HW is back! omg! End of the world!” If HW was back, things on the market would cost at least 1.2 million gil a piece. Don’t see that? Then I believe you are NOT in heavensward anymore. Come on, guys...let’s not take one step forward and two steps back. -
03-12-2020, 10:41 AMCaimie_Tsukino
If there is an immediate problem here, it's the reward system. If one has to do these Expert Recipes to get a good rank, and if getting a good rank is required to actually get a reward (and we still don't know what will be given yet, do we?), then it's a really stressful thing to do while fighting the leaderboard. The idea is to be REWARD-driven, not STRESS-driven... Imagine how you feel when you suddenly get kicked below top 10 on the very last day!
I don't think rewarding the Top 10 or 20 is as important as the idea of rewarding whoever getting pass a certain score. I mean, it's OK to reward the Top 10 as well, such as given a title. But we do need a MUCH better reward for players who get pass certain scores with Expert Recipes! That will provide an attractive force for people to do these Expert Recipes. -
03-12-2020, 11:18 AMJojoyaThe achievements are the reward driven content. Leaderboards are always competitive and therefore a source of stress if you're not the type of person driven by competition (I know I'm not).Quote:
Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino
I'm not going to worry about my ranking this first time around. Let all the competitive people push to be in the top 12. I plan to enjoy the content for now and get my rewards in a later ranking period. -
03-12-2020, 11:31 AMStabby-Chan
Hello,
Grinding DOES NOT EQUAL better, thrilling, and challenging.
Remember when we had to level all 8 to cap then set cross-class skills so they all operated the same? ...just to grind out tools (not really skill) in ARR/HW?
Remember Maker's Mark and Flawless Synthesis? Remember those cute 64 stacks under 6377 difficulty for Stormblood 2 star craft/gatherer gear? That also was annihilated by macros later.
Remember when it was a thing to use Steady Hand II + Great Strides + Ingenuity II + Innovation + Byregot's Miracle + Great Strides + Byregot's Brow?
and back then brow had a 100% success rate under specialization?
Difficulty? Whats that!?
We had Steady Hand II and Reclaim back then, Stealing the Chance out of Chance Macros.
I used to do
Muscle Memory + Inner Quiet + Steady Hand II + Piece by Piece + Prudent Touch x 2 + Patient Touch x 2.
This had a 64% chance of working.
If it did, I was already over 50% in progress and at 11 IQ Stacks.
If it failed, I would just use Reclaim and Botch the craft to have a 90% chance of reclaiming materials.
So 1/10th chance to lose my materials on a 36% chance of failure....
where upon success I know I will go from 0 - 100% on light melds with food....
How do you think I went from nothing to fully pentemelded in a week after getting Goddess of the Hand in SB? Then I went to safer macros.....
Today, Chance Macros has a MUCH HIGHER chance of failure.
Reflect + Patient Touch x 2 has a 75% Chance of failure and no Reclaim to fall back on.
Expert-Recipes are more pliant-RNG dependent.
I wish there could be a Savage-Level version of crafting that gave us our own soulbound savage-iLvL gear once a week for crafters to show we really are a big deal, but that would take making Crafting more non-linear and making people actually THINK and not beat everything with macros. :) -
03-13-2020, 06:59 AMNanaWilohI am not doing the expert recipes but I did have fun watching the hardcore crafters on my crafting discord go nuts. Patch notes dropped and they started slamming the teamcraft sim despite it not being updated with the new procs. Didnt take long for some results to come back showing how far experts can be pushed without proc's. Best 2 hours I have spent in a discord just watching people slam away at something :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Nandrolone
-
03-24-2020, 11:41 PMFate_TestarossaMounts for every crafter? Easy.
Here's a very easy way to create a mount for every crafter:
Make a carriage as a base mount. Now attach different items to it depending on the crafter.
BSM? Attach some existing weapon sprites to the carriage/cart.
ARM? Attach some Armors/Armor parts to the carriage/cart.
And so on and so on. They could basically make one base model, and then just add already existing objects to it. That way they can basically create 8 mounts with little effort and I'm sure people would still be excited over it.
I'd really love to have a little Carriage for my BSM with some weapons attached to it. -
09-13-2020, 09:24 AMTrenDeca
It’s sad to see such an amazing and well thought out thread be buried like this. :(
-
09-13-2020, 11:09 AMHeulGDariansorry sorry im late im late. What did i miss? The op message was awesome and im pretty sure i have to thank him for the expert rlts and all the crafter mounts , as well as the equivalent of crafter astrope in the form of pteranodon.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrenDeca
Did the forums went pepega again? -
09-14-2020, 05:29 AMNixxeI'm not really sure what you expect. That's how forums work. No matter how popular a thread is, it eventually falls by the wayside.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrenDeca
-
09-15-2020, 12:45 AMpanderin
Caimie as always fantastic ideas, just wanted to comment to give it a bump and hope the powers that be see it!
-
09-15-2020, 06:06 AMNanaWilohYou have to see the post that gave birth too this one. Both of them are amazing and really show that hardcore crafters and causal can work togather when they think of eachother. That post though sadly like this one was, is still burried some where on the forum. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by panderin
Once again thanks for doing this post Camie. -
11-13-2020, 05:20 AMGranyala
Well I still understand the wish for challenge.
https://i.imgur.com/X6Aa14J.png
Let me just say, that the current system is not challenging at all. Time consuming, yes. Frustrating, yes. Challenging in terms of skill: hell no.
What I like about it: every craft is different, no set rotation, no braindead macro mashing while watching Stargate.
What I dislike about it: RNG basically dictates quality related outcome, no way to predict/pre plan, no way for a crafters skill to shine at all. You can gamble, you can try to delay costly actions in hopes of a pliant but it all boils down to a simple priority list.
You can do everything right and RNG still screws you in round about 15%-20% of the crafts. YMMV due to sample size but 800+ crafts is quite a bit, so I feel confident in my assessment.
Most important subjective question: Is expert crafting fun?
No. Getting trolled by RNG is not fun in the slightest. Especially when it happens near the end and you waste minutes on a craft that doesn't make minimum collectible value. -
01-18-2021, 05:13 AMMachaYum
Maybe the things you stated in this thread will actually happen in 6.0 but I really doubt it. The dev team seem to be completely different people than they were in 2.0 - 3.0. 4.0 - Now, they seem to value casual type crafting and not allowing harder recipes to be sold on the market like in the past.
-
01-18-2021, 05:58 PMCaimie_TsukinoWell, we were not asking for harder recipe products to be sold on market though. They responded us with Expert Recipes, and that's ok. The problem is the reward being extremely crappy at the moment. Look at that flying dino mount. It's not worth 500K on every class at all. It's probably just worth 50K on every class. We got no shiny tools that shines when unsheathed. We got no class-specific mounts nor minions. We need motivation!Quote:
Originally Posted by MachaYum
-
01-19-2021, 11:12 AMJojoyaThat's going to be the problem - finding something that will motivate the majority of crafters looking for a greater challenge. We've seen a lot of different responses over the months on what crafters feel would be properly rewarding, including some saying they actually do want exclusive crafts that could be sold on the MB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino
I don't know what feedback SE has been getting on desired rewards from other places. I imagine they'll also be checking to see what percentage of players end up making serious efforts toward getting the Skyward Point achievements. If there's not enough participation, they may not feel it's worth repeating next expansion if they can't come up with new ways to motivate players into doing it. -
01-20-2021, 04:07 AMSqwallThe soul reason that I craft is to make GIL and make my own gear to SAVE MY GIL. The challenge really falls to time management for me. Which is a piss-poor challenge for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
Like the OP said... ARR master books were a PAIN to get, and a REAL challenge. The endgame crafting was difficult, layered, and complex. Much like a savage raid for a disciple of war/magic. Either weren't necessary to at all, but a choice none the less if I were to take on those challenges.
The OP is 100% correct that crafting is simply a joke now, and the only challenge avail at this point is the ishgard restoration titles if that's your thing. Fine. Grinding out RNG recipes for a title doesn't get my motor running honestly. Sure it's fun to participate in a community driven timed event, but that's about it. I would rather sit on a flagpole in a snowstorm then go back into the diadem to farm mats. NO!
Every crafting class being EXACTLY the same is just wrong also. ARR to Stormblood did it right for crafting. Each class is unique and varied. This made being a good crafter meant dabbling in every class. Now all you need is 12 hours to max out EVERY class, and nobody can deny the amount of omnicrafters-gathers that were minted this expansion.
This leads me to believe that SE is planning to change the crafting game in 6.0 with a completely level playing field with each class respectively. With each class literally identical with skills we can speculate on what is going to show up in 6.0.
They did it with gatherers collectibles, and I prefer the new method now. Good bye node jumping, hello simplified interface. Gathering scrips actually has some varied RNG now vs. getting a discerning eye proc being your main focus. Crafting collectables will probably see the same treatment with a whole new interface, where you NEED to pay attention to maximize your rotation. Can't just macro through scrips anymore will probably be the new crafting meta.
I for one have made a stupid amount of GIL this expansion, but have nothing to spend it on unless it's cosmetic. That's just backwards thinking for crafting and the soul reason to make gear is to make your character better. Not look like Goku.... which is fine... but just strange that glamour is the crafting end game for MAX GIL gain. You know your in trouble when BiS is cheaper then sought after glamour items. Messed up. -
02-09-2021, 10:13 AMCaimie_Tsukino
So our requests in this thread (since Feb 2021) are now partially granted... Apart from "Expert Recipes" that are the "harder recipes", we now have Skybuilders' Tools, which are shiny tools that shine when unsheathed. However, these tools are (1) NOT huge, (2) NOT carried on our backs, and (3) Undyeable (funny enough, the Skysung upgrade step was dyeable, but the final Skybuilders' upgrade made it shiny yet undyeable).
https://s2.gifyu.com/images/Untitled...n_finished.jpg -
02-10-2021, 12:41 AMMachaYumI think it’s safe to say they will never answer our suggestions when it comes to crafting, especially.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino
-
02-10-2021, 12:35 PMNanaWilohIf they add the wings that double as a mount in endwalkers and make them hard to craft like we discussed. I will fall out of my chair and roll across the room. I am not hardcore but Ill push the envolope for a set of useable wings in a heart beat. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino
-
02-10-2021, 01:42 PMCaimie_TsukinoThey do answer. They just don't answer in full... We ask for a double-cheese burger with ketchup, and they give us a cheese burger with mayo...Quote:
Originally Posted by MachaYum
Sounds like something to die for!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by NanaWiloh
-
02-11-2021, 05:52 PMNanaWiloh
Friend of mine was asking for hq 510 set for healing and fending. Mentioned Youtuber zane had a method for crafting hq 510 with saint gear and offered to do it for them. While getting the saint tools for the classes I was going to use. Wvr,alch and arm...A thought occured to me, with my current melds, specialist and saint tools could I reach the craft,control and cp zane showed.
Slapped the tools on my wvr who has specialist. To my surprise I was above what zane was showing for his saint setup. Cant say how happy I am, I have no interest in using crafted 510 battle gear myself or selling it. But the fact I can help a friend out thrills me to no end :D To note my control and cp where already well above what Zane was showing I was just short on Craftsmenship. Needed like another 40 or so to reach the mark didnt feel like Penta melding more, watching materia blow up is not fun. I am not flooded with gil and I am stock piling materia for Endwalker. So the fact the tool swap gave me the extra craftmenship is a blessing to me. -
02-16-2021, 05:37 AMSqwallI can agree with this as I have helped at least 5 of my FC members in attaining Facet level gear and ashestes level gear to help their crafting game. It feels good when you help out another FC member by allowing them to make their own gear. I even had ALL the facet mats needed to help them out and I asked for nothing, but they offered tips. I have made MANY ashetes pieces to help others round out their set. My FC comes to me all the time to ask how to get scrips fast, attain mats quicker, mass crafting parties to flood a market to make gil for the FC. It feels good to be able to make some of the best gear to help my FC get up to required ilevel for raiding.Quote:
Originally Posted by NanaWiloh
The challenge I find constantly is dividing my time equally to help as many as I can. While also trying to make GIL in the process. Recently I have found a lot of fun in making NQ gear items at the 80 mark, 500ilevel mark, and 490ilevel mark. Most people that are GIL conscious are more likely to spend 50k for a NQ, when the HQ is 100k asking price. They sell often and generally have almost NO price adjustments. Not everyone needs HQ, or don't want to pay for HQ. -
02-19-2021, 07:46 AMNabril
When over-melding is a thing, I can't see crafting ever being difficult.