I wish AST never had a DPS buff

I kinda wish AST didn't exist. A lot of today's issues with healers is a direct result of the devs trying to make AST fit in. I know that is a bold statement, but one that continues to ring in my ears as something I perceive to be true.

I don't think any healer should have the ability to increase DPS in anyway. Not even their own. That's just one of the issues though. I have to echo an earlier post I read, and mention that any utility that doesn't increase DPS is deemed as inferior. It's unquestionably true, but it is also something I strongly oppose. Due to content design, you either have to give all the healers the ability to increase rDPS, or none of them. This just won't sink in with the devs though, even though they are the ones that design the encounters.

First the AST is not the Problem Gemina. Evertime a new healer can be that Problem if you think in that way. So you can say pls let the WHM strong and dont make new healer Devs. So the WHM has his place than? I believe at the latest at the Fan Festival, where the fourth healer is expected to be presented. Nobody shares this opinion self-centered opinion The Whm has a great kit but in SB the community did not like it so SE looks how they can improf the kit of WHM. No Mana problems, Afflatus Misery ....

But look at the whm changes in ShB. Its okay that you have Afflatus Misery for 3 times GCD Healing? I don't think any healer should have the ability like Afflatus Misery in anyway. I know that is a bold statement, but one that continues to ring in my ears as something I perceive to be true. Due to content design, you either have to give all the healers a ability with so a high DMG-output, or none of them. This just won't sink in with the devs though, even though they are the ones that design the encounters. Its the same Problem and I see that SE try to make for all class a fantasy and playstill, which is different in the way of healing and support. And is you have play a glaremage than make DPS and push your dps. I do not understand the 150s CD for Presence of Mind I think 2min is okay.

With the lose of the old effect from "The Ewer" ASTs loses a mana reg and have to take more piet and the WHM has not this problem. Is that okay? In if you look in one Hand the AST playstil is so much busyer than in Stormblood and so the rng from the cards is away. A lot of the AST player switched to WHM, because its to hard to play.

All Healer have there own problem but only to look for benefics that from each playstil is not fair. You have to see what are the requerments for that benefis. So if you see a Problem change your playstill to fix it or try to live with that. If you see that your class has a high dmg out put ask the cohealer to open up glare window. Instand to ask here to remove AST, SCH, WHM and make only one healer and everyone, who wants to play heal take this only Job. In my opinion to community wants a balanced Jobfield and a different playstil. That task is hard to make it true. And if you say buffs are unfair that is output from a tank the same problem.

SE make a great Job in the way healing is at the moment. You can peer all three healer as a team and it do not feels harder to heal. I do not talk to Healer DPSing, I like it that the dps feels the same, but I know that the community do not like it. I look to the SCH.^^

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I have to echo an earlier post I read, and mention that any utility that doesn't increase DPS is deemed as inferior. It's unquestionably true, but it is also something I strongly oppose. Due to content design, you either have to give all the healers the ability to increase rDPS, or none of them. This just won't sink in with the devs though, even though they are the ones that design the encounters.

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That'a not the problem. At the end of the day, DPS is just damage, it doesn't matter how you do it as long as it's consistent and more or less equal to what other jobs bring. I mean, the emerging meta includes WHM and AST, so it's not a matter of dps utility. The problem in late HW and StB was that AST personal DPS was basically equal to WHM, while also bringing random but strong enough DPS buffs and having MUCH better oGCD heals than WHM in a game where optimal healing dictates that you minimize GCD healing, so even with very unlucky card draws, AST was still better than WHM.
At the end of the day, no matter what people say about how they enjoyed the RNG aspect of cards, they were very bad design from the beginning. First, because at all levels of play, healers should not and do not rely on RNG based defensive buffs because you can't just go "ops, didn't draw the right card, we're gonna wipe" (this is part of the reason why the old lily system sucked, it provided an rng way to slightly increase healing output). Second, because the probability of drawing the right card in the very niche scenario you may need a specific non-dps utility card was too low therefore making niche cards like the ewer, the spire or the bole close to useless and rr/minor arcana fodder. The argument that some people make that you could put those cards in your spread and use them when needed is laughable. No one used spread for things like ewer and spire, let's be real. The only way to make AST work without jeopardizing the healers' balance was by removing the rng. Sorry, but that's just how it is.

But anyway, the problem healers have now has nothing to do with AST. It has more to do with how the healing toolkits are designed, fight design, low healing requirements and this foolish tendency to simplify everything in the game because the devs hope that by making everything simple bad players will magically get good...and this is backfiring because bad players are getting even worse because they have no need to even try anymore.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I kinda wish AST didn't exist. A lot of today's issues with healers is a direct result of the devs trying to make AST fit in. I know that is a bold statement, but one that continues to ring in my ears as something I perceive to be true.
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100% agree.

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Originally Posted by Heilstos

First the AST is not the Problem Gemina.

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Except at it's core it is the issue, it has caused nothing but balance issues between it and the other two healers. Tanks were in a similar situation. They had 2 and then DRK came along and then it was a constant fight to buff and nerf to give each a time in the sun and get them in raids. Then GNB Came along and they decided to go with the dedicated MT/OT dichotomy.

Whenever there is only 2 slots available and 3 healers, there are going to be balance issues. There really isn't much debating that. Serious groups will take the best two and leave the lower performing one out.

There's a reason why when you look at savage parses, WHM was the top by a LARGE margin, SCH came in second, and at a DISTANT third was AST. No one was playing them because they were simply sub par.

IMHO, They need to get a 4th healer and make it either a Shield based or a regen base and force AST to go the opposite. Then you'll have 2 Regen based, and 2 shield based and you can interchange between them.

Except tanks aren't a strict OT/MT dichotomy, and that wasn't their intention anyway.
(If this dichotomy did exist, then PLD and WAR would be the OTs, which doesn't make much sense)
Having 2 strict Regen and 2 strict Shield healers would mess things up, as you'd be expected to have one of each available, otherwise you may as well go back to having just two healers and if the other one is a SCH then you're screwed if you're a SCH.
They need to go away from the Shield/Regen dichotomy, and have a fourth healer than can be proficient in either, just like AST.
That's why they've now given every healer a shield, every healer a regen, and allowed many AST/SCH shields to overlap.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I kinda wish AST didn't exist. A lot of today's issues with healers is a direct result of the devs trying to make AST fit in. I know that is a bold statement, but one that continues to ring in my ears as something I perceive to be true.

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No don't worry. As much as I love and loved AST, I always felt the same.
Or I would say, I would have prefer AST to stand on its own with its unique gameplay and not all this regen/shielder mess + copy paste of WHM based toolkit.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

No don't worry. As much as I love and loved AST, I always felt the same.
Or I would say, I would have prefer AST to stand on its own with its unique gameplay and not all this regen/shielder mess + copy paste of WHM based toolkit.

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I'd say the problem was having a Regen/Shield dichotomy to begin with, as it prohibited the existence of other unique healers.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I'd say the problem was having a Regen/Shield dichotomy to begin with, as it prohibited the existence of other unique healers.

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Of course. And it's stupid from the devs themselves to think this actually exists in the first place.
Look at scholar. He always had some regen despite being called the "shielder" healer. From the healer player and healer community, it has always been seen a very versatile healer (and he is). But from dev team point of view, it seemed like it was mostly if not completely a "shielder".

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Of course. And it's stupid from the devs themselves to think this actually exists in the first place.
Look at scholar. He always had some regen despite being called the "shielder" healer. From the healer player and healer community, it has always been seen a very versatile healer (and he is). But from dev team point of view, it seemed like it was mostly if not completely a "shielder".

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The real issue is that stacking shields can be really OP, hence why regens generally stack and shields generally don't. They've only been relaxing this for the sporadic shields, like Benison, Intersection and Catalyse, and of course Neutral Sect otherwise that would be gimped in AST/SCH.

But AST shielding is better now than it's ever been, which is why I think a fourth healer should mimic AST's versatility, just with a unique application of regen/shields.
Like here where I've suggested a Chemist that can apply either or at any time, basically throwing off the shackles of AST's sects and therefore requiring more thought as to which skills/rotation you use rather than just clicking on one sect or the other at the start of the fight.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ea-for-Chemist

This should work ok, because all the other healers announce what mode they use. WHM is regens, SCH is shields and AST has a display for the Sect they're in and doesn't change once the battle commences. But it would make it more of an 'advanced' healer. The problem might be if there's 2 of the new healer...

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The real issue is that stacking shields can be really OP, hence why regens generally stack and shields generally don't. They've only been relaxing this for the sporadic shields, like Benison, Intersection and Catalyse, and of course Neutral Sect otherwise that would be gimped in AST/SCH.

But AST shielding is better now than it's ever been, which is why I think a fourth healer should mimic AST's versatility, just with a unique application of regen/shields.

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Though, the issue with something like that, is that unless WHM and SCH are the best at Regen/Shields, you start to make it so that AST and the new healer are in an advantageous position because they can be either which is far better in DF.

It also limits how diverse the healer role can be, if every single one boils down to Regen and/or Shields. So every healer feels like a WHM/SCH clone.

It would be far more appealing if they managed to make WHM and SCH comparable in healing while being the "Regen" and "Shield" healers (Or having WHM being a direct heal style healer given that they have so many direct heals and would fit with the typical design many people see for WHM being the DD healer) while allowing other healers to have unique healing styles instead, but with comparable healing capacity.

For example,

- WHM as a direct healer. They have really high throughput direct healing. They also deal damage through direct damage spells like Quake, Flood and Holy.
- SCH as a Shield healer. They apply various shields (Also introducing semi-permeable shields that absorb only a percent of incoming damage so shields have less capacity to be broken by nullifying mechanics). While dealing damage via DoT skills (Bio, Miasma, Bane)
- AST as a delayed healer. They use a lot of triggered heals that they set up before damage is done (Things like Horoscope, Earthly Star and mechanics like Excog). They also deal damage in a delayed fashion, applying "DoT" effects that detonate on expiration for their damage (Can be detonated early for lower damage too)
- NEC (Necromancer) as a siphon healer. Draining aether/health away from enemies, themselves or summoned spirits to power up their healing skills. Dealing damage in a way that also provides healing to themselves/their party.
- CHE (Chemist) or FLI (Flintlock, if you want to have more distinction from Alchemist. Also, potential to have a Moogle teach you the job) as a HoT healer. Using their magic cannon to mix together salves that heal over time. Dealing damage with a variety of debuffs depending on mixed ingredients.

As opposed to WHM, SCH, WHM2.0, SCH2.0, WHM+SCH, WHM+SCH2.0

I feel like that would be taking a step backwards.
They've just gone and given WHM a shield, and allowed AST and SCH shields to stack. Plus removed all of SCH's additional DoTs.
WHM without any regens or Benison would be pretty dull, and SCH without the fairy and it's regen would be incredibly reliant on keeping a shield up at all times.
AST capitalising on delayed heals (there's only one so far) while eliminating its regens and shields would just be a direct healer under another name.

I'd much rather they spread regens and shields out across all healer jobs, and capitalised on differentiating them via job mechanics.
WHM has lilies and gains resources on using their proc'ed direct heals.
SCH uses ability amplification/spread via Tactics, and in the fairy (Eos/Selene to Seraph)
AST has cards and a couple of delayed skills.
So we come up with a fourth healer that uses unique mechanics to provide the same regens and shields that the other jobs do.

I really don't get this whole 'WHM/SCH clone' thing either. All healer jobs need to have basic heals, basic aoe heals, and their own modified versions for flavour.
AST pulls different parts of each WHM and SCH, and has it's own unique skills too. It's not a WHM clone. It's just that WHM is so basic, because they want to keep it as an entry level healer, that it shares so many parts of it's toolkit. That's like saying all melee DPS are just DRG clones because they have a 1-2-3 combo and a gap closer.
I can't see us ever getting a Necromancer or a 'siphon' healer either.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Plus removed all of SCH's additional DoTs

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Which every SCH is thrilled about.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

WHM without any regens or Benison would be pretty dull

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How so? How is putting up a HoT every so often that much more exciting than pushing out a big fat heal every so often?

WHM was interesting enough for 6 years without Benison.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

SCH without the fairy and it's regen would be incredibly reliant on keeping a shield up at all times.

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Who said to get rid of the fairy? Or to strip them of any and all healing?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

AST capitalising on delayed heals (there's only one so far) while eliminating its regens and shields would just be a direct healer under another name.

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I literally stated three that exist in the game, right now, in that post.

Also, it would not simply be "A direct healer under another name" as it would be pro-active like a Shield healer as opposed to reactive like a direct healer.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I'd much rather they spread regens and shields out across all healer jobs, and capitalised on differentiating them via job mechanics.

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But this stifles potential design and contributes to a level of homogenization that results in healers feeling the same just with different colour spells.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I really don't get this whole 'WHM/SCH clone' thing either. All healer jobs need to have basic heals, basic aoe heals, and their own modified versions for flavour.

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Not every healer needs to have Cure, Cure II, Regen, Medica and Medica II.

Just look at SCH. SCH doesn't have "Cure II" it has Adloquiem which combines "Regen". It doesn't have a Regen-alike instant heal with bonus (Like Aspected Benefic). It only has a Medica II-alike which it can use a Tactic to change into a Medica.

That's how AST is a WHM clone. Because it does run Cure, Cure II, Regen, Medica and Medica II. Called Benefic, Benefic II, Aspected Benefic, Helios and Aspected Helios. It even has a proc for Benefic II after using Benefic like the Cure II proc from Cure.

The only musts for a Healer is to have a ST and an AoE heal. However many variants they have of each and what extra effects they may or may not have doesn't really matter. Just so long as they have 1 heal that heals a single target and 1 heal that heals multiple people.

Beyond that, you have an endless expanse for design. Since nothing else is mandatory. You don't NEED a regen if you can simply cast a heal every 15-18s that heals the same amount or put up a shield that absorbs the same amount. You don't NEED a shield (Unless the game specifically designs for damage that would exceed 100% of players health, even then, a short term damage reduction buff would also work, i.e. if WHM got Shell/Protect to reduce the damage it would have the same functionality as using Benison to mitigate the damage)

These are only requirements if your goal is to make every healer be the same.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

That's like saying all melee DPS are just DRG clones because they have a 1-2-3 combo and a gap closer.

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Except, this analogy fails. Since DRG doesn't have a 123 combo. It has a 12345 combo. Which is not shared by literally any other melee DPS in the game.

Except Aspected Benefit is closer to Adloquium than Regen. So it doesn't have a Regen.
And you basically confirmed my point by saying Aspected Helios is a Medica II analogue. Why not call it a Succor analogue?
The only thing AST takes from WHM that is not also shared by SCH, is the fact that it has 2 tiers of basic heal, Benefic and Benefic II. And using Benefic is mostly pointless once you get II. I wouldn't complain if the spell was upgraded, and then you couldn't call it a WHM clone.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Except Aspected Benefit is closer to Adloquium than Regen. So it doesn't have a Regen.

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You mean, other than the fact that Aspected Benefic is instant cast? Provides a Regen much earlier than it provides a Shield? Is also alongside a Benefic II which is what Adloquium represents for SCH?

If you're saying that the heal upon application makes Aspected Benefic more like Adlo than Regen, consider the fact that it is literally just applying the tick of Regen that is lost in the difference from AB's Regen being 15s duration (So 5 ticks) vs Regen's 18s duration (So 6 ticks)

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

And you basically confirmed my point by saying Aspected Helios is a Medica II analogue. Why not call it a Succor analogue?

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Because Helios exists and is a Medica analogue.

There is no extra Succor skill that doesn't provide an extra effect. Such a skill can only be created via using Emergency Tactics on Succor.

Helios literally 1:1 equates to Medica.

Thus Aspected Helios 1:1 equates to Medica II which is "Helios/Medica but with an additional effect"

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The only thing AST takes from WHM that is not also shared by SCH, is the fact that it has 2 tiers of basic heal, Benefic and Benefic II.

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As well as 2 tiers of AoE heal, Helios and Aspected Helios. As well as an instant cast heal with lasting benefit in Aspected Benefic.

Literally, outside of oGCD's, AST and WHM's healing kits are identical. With the only difference being that AST can eventually use Nocturnal Sect to replace the HoTs with Shields.

Meanwhile, SCH is still sitting there with a different kit entirely. With the only shared aspect with WHM being the tier 1 heal having no additional effects (Physick and Cure I)

Adlo takes the place of Cure II and instead of being a big fat heal, rolls in an additional effect in the form of the shield.

Succor is SCH's only GCD AoE heal, which is taking the place of both Medica and Medica II as a result.

There is no single target instant cast heal for SCH. They instead have healing from their fairy to provide a similar effect or have to substitute for casting Adlo's for the shield.

AST could have been unique too.

It could have had Horoscope instead of Helios/Aspected Helios.
It could have had Excogitation instead of Aspected Benefic.
It could have had Benefic instantly proc (And consume) delayed effects on the target (Such as Excog) instead of having Benefic II.

Causing it to have, not only a unique way of healing through delayed effects, but a base healing kit that is structured differently to that of WHM/SCH (Even if the above does come across very SCH-esk there could have been further alterations, such as drawing cards using a mechanism that provides healing output)

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I really don't get this whole 'WHM/SCH clone' thing either.

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When AST was released :

Benefic = Cure (also proc, but different effect)
Benefic II = Cure II
Helios = Medica
Aspected Helios = Medica II
Aspected Benefic = Regen (with one less tick, but with one initial heal because how shield work in Nocturnal).
Lightspeed 150s = Presence of Mind, but with a different effect because it couldn't be the same, but the idea behind and the recast time are on the same line.
Essential Dignity = Tetra & Benediction combined. Potency scaled on remaining HP. Because you can't give more button to ast due to its card system.

Not clone 100%, but a lot of the heal given were definitly inspired from WHM gameplay (and you more or less played AST mostly the same as WHM, but with cards).
What was very unique from ast were card system, and time manipulation through Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition (gone)

But today, it's a lot different with every little heals on 60s.
Even if somehow, AST stil has some echo skills right now.

Celestial intersection could somehow be seen as Devine Benison.
Horoscope is an answer to Plenary Indulgence. (trigerring an additional heal upon using your gcd aoe heal).

But at the very base, that's where we've started from. And when I talk how AST was designed, I'm talking about when it was release and during 3.x series.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Except Aspected Benefit is closer to Adloquium than Regen. So it doesn't have a Regen.

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It's instant. It has the same cure potency. It only has one tick less that is actually applied directly, which make regen and Aspected Benefic the same.

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And you basically confirmed my point by saying Aspected Helios is a Medica II analogue. Why not call it a Succor analogue?

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Because Scholar only has Succor as a gcd aoe heal, while whm and ast both has one direct heal and one aoe heal + side effect.
Even though AH is basically a succor as well. But when looking at the whole kit, since it's very WHM inspired, and also the same potency, that's why its commonly seen as Medica II analogue.

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The only thing AST takes from WHM that is not also shared by SCH, is the fact that it has 2 tiers of basic heal, Benefic and Benefic II. And using Benefic is mostly pointless once you get II. I wouldn't complain if the spell was upgraded, and then you couldn't call it a WHM clone.

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See what I said above.

I just hope they bring back the card effects that isn't all pure DPS. Going through the AST storyline the first time in 5.1, I was so hyped because I was going to be able to get 6 cards each unique for their situation. Then I read the card effects and had a 'bruh really?' moment where basically all the card effects did the same thing. Royal road was a legend. ;-; I was very disappointed.

Rather a flat DPS buff on all cards - keep some of the old card effects and adjust them so there's still utility.

This is just an idea of what I think would probably help the job keep its uniqueness and card system. I hope I can at least see some ideas here being implemented because currently, AST's card system has no real flexibility at all for utility and is utterly boring to shuffle through.

Assuming the old cards were kept - Balance, Bole, Ewer, Spear, Arrow[?], Spire[??] - they would have to be adjusted accordingly. Ex: If Spear is kept, increase the percentage potency. Even if it isn't a flat Balance increase, your odds of getting something that can contribute to DPS is higher. After all, Crit can also be used for healing too so everyone can benefit from it situationally speaking. If that can't happen, allow the cards to also be placed and used as a debuff on enemies. Ex: Arrow essentially induces a slow effect on the enemy. This would allow AST a lot more solo potential as well in instances if that need be the case even if they can't excel at fighting with pure statistics. Plus, being able to slow a mechanic down would enable less healing time required and more breathing room. Optimizing this playstyle as an AST would ultimately require you to keep track of a lot more factors, but there is a guarantee that all your card effects can definitely impact the battle accordingly and be rewarding in the process.

As for spire, it could be either a Direct Hit Rate increase or a Limit Break gauge increase. Adjust percentages accordingly. That way people don't need to be compelled to constantly get Balance and every card can see effectiveness and be granted on any character.

Perhaps make it so when you draw, on the card gauge, you get to see the next 2-3 different cards you can draw (or redraw to remove clunky-ness and keep effectiveness), minor arcana improves the effect of the card by 1.5x to 2x without granting a seal, royal road changes the effect to AoE with reduced percentages. This way you can 'see into the future' and adapt. Of course you may not always have the best cards, but you can't always be dealt with the best hand. The choice now is how to use the cards - improve them individually or turn them into an AoE effect. This can also let your team communicate when your mana is running low and whether there is/isn't an Ewer in sight.

I would say to scrap the idea of getting 3 different seals for divination because this inherently makes people redraw for the max effect (card effects can only be the same in this situation to avoid losing max potential, which is equivalent to saying everything be dps), making each card have to lose its uniqueness and punishes the player for adapting by playing different cards for the situation.

There are a lot of fun and interesting ideas that could be used, but as long as people demand that everything be perfectly balanced with one another things will never change. The reason why most classes of every role feel so similar to each other is because nothing can have a true strength that another does not. I like a lot of the new stuff AST got in shadowbringers, but I wish the cards would have just been removed completely at this point. I liked that the old cards had tangible effects outside of "number get bigger" even if it was only minor. They're just not fun to use as they are.