Such warning best suited when you check the duty than entering it, or else it is too late!
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Some of the problems no doubt comes from that, but I'd say the majority of the problem is that the requirements for becoming a mentor have little or nothing to do with who would be a good mentor.
The mentor requirements all basically boil down to playing a lot. Doing that does not suffice to make one a good mentor.
I'd say the whole mentor system is flawed from start to end, and no amount of tweaking can fix it. It would have to be scrapped and redone from scratch - and even then I wonder if it is even possible to create a good mentor system.
This right here. It's insane that the mentor roulette can spit you into Extremes. When you end up into an EX through duty finder you already know there's going to be trouble and probably more of it than it's worth. Being synced down is definitely an advantage but we are still talking about content that can take people more than a lock-out to properly learn. And now you are here with a bunch of dudes who probably don't know what they are getting into because if they did they'd be using PF to begin with, synced or not.
I should probably mention that I don't run mentor roulette before anyone starts judging me but if I did I'd be leaving extremes too. I guess they are the entryway into harder fights so in a way they do count as teaching sprouts but it's also the entryway to "gloves off" content where you really should get into the habit of doing your own research and pulling your own weight. It is endgame content, not exactly babys first steps. If you are looking for the easy clear then hey, do it unsync.
1) Not everyone can remember mechanics they knew very well from 5 years ago.
2) If you're in EX level content you should be doing a minimal amount of research. "Learn as you go" wastes everyone's time and generally leads to abandons.
3) A mentor isn't your EX teacher alone. They possess knowledge about the game in general. Skill rotations, class optimization etc, help with quests, MSQ etc
4) Personally I don't think EX content should be in the Mentor Roulette.
Maybe the Mentor roulette itself needs go away, and integrate into Leveling roulette the achievement and reward for doing it <n> times as a Mentor.
After all, Mentor is meant as guidance for the basics of the game, and extreme duties are quite far from that. It fits Leveling roulette.
Extremes being in the roulette is the reason I stopped trying to unlock it, and why I'm not fussed about becoming a mentor again at all. The only reason I can see is the mount, and it's just not worth it.
I stopped bothering to try to get the mount... though I keep my mentor status on to offer help when people ASK it of me. And I never even use the Mentor Roulette anymore because I am tired of being expected to CARRY people... because that's what it felt like, esp with a majority of people buying skips, not doing low content or the novice hall to learn, and just expecting to be hauled through things by higher players without complaint or listening to/doing what they're asked.
Honestly the largest problem with the mentor roulette is getting an ex duty with people who don't know the basics and refuse to learn like facing bosses away from the rest of the group to prevent cleaves.
I am not a Mentor but that would also be my advice for non-relavent content. Realistically you will be able to fill a party-finder faster if you're just trying to get through it than if you are attempting to do the synced battle. However quitting standard story mode stuff is deplorable. Extreme content from a year or more ago I can understand. That should definitely be unsynced unless your spell learning.
I'm not one to abandon duty when I find myself in an Extreme Primal for Mentor Roulette. I'll give it the ol' college try, and most of the time we'll pull off a win... eventually.
However, win or lose, I'll usually recommend to the players involved that they use Party Finder instead. There are generally two kinds of folks who queue up for an Extreme Primal using Duty Finder:
- Newbies who are unaware that you can run the content unsynced (and probably just want to complete the thing to finish a quest, or whatever)
- Players who do know you can unsync the content, but want to run it synced for the challenge
BOTH groups benefit more from using Party Finder. The former get their quick win, and the latter get like-minded individuals who are also in it for the challenge of it (and who may run other content with them in the future).
Duty Finder queues for Extreme Primals are OPPRESSIVELY bad, as well, even with Mentor Roulette to help out. If you're satisfied with unsynced, you can fill a party AND get the win in about ten minutes, using Party Finder. Challenge-seekers... well, they're in for a long wait either way, but at least in the end they'll get folks who actually want to be there, if they use Party Finder.
I don't endorse Mentors who abandon duty, no matter what duty they wind up in. However, I do not think that newbies should be using Duty Finder to complete Extreme Primals, and I tell them so. Most are actually grateful, as they were unaware of the unsync option and just want the clear.
The sad thing about mentor roulette is you have to be prepared to set aside 60-90 minutes of your time to 1 roulette due to extreme trials being in there. It only gets worse because extreme trials like Shinryu is in there now which pretty much makes it a 60 minute learning party with a very small chance to clear and worse part no rewards at the end for even trying as a mentor.
The best thing you can get in mentor roulette is a guildheist.
It's not that extremes are super hard content, they just require the level of preparation and coordination which a random Duty Finder group can't be expected to have. I did Shinryu extreme when it was released and I don't think I could complete it in one lockout with players who go in blind. Has anyone?
If players who get to Shinryu ex need a mentor to explain mechanics because they didn't look anything up in advance, they have underestimated what the content requires of them. People used to watch guides and do this in learning parties phase by phase or with a group who knows how to play together.
I can put aside an hour for something that will result in a clear, like a main scenario dungeon, but I won't do it for people who after one pull appear to be out of their depth with no chance of success. Telling them about the PF, unsync and player-made guides is helpful advice and that's where the responsibility of a mentor ends.
Before you can queue for.Quote:
there should also be a warning when entering your first extreme trial
I came to the conclusion a while ago that Astrope wasnt worth several hundred synced EX trials with people who dont care to learn mechanics, cant speak english, or just want a carry. I'd rather slam my head into a brick wall, same headache, fewer problems.
Theres 0 reason to do that stuff synced through dungeon finder. Synced EX's ends up being an unintentional trap party most of the time, because you cant yoloswag through them like you can with most everything else thats synced (well, you can with the 50's now that they lock at "dont push me here yet" %), and people have no idea theyre going to need to pay attention until they're several pulls in.
I am a licensed Trade Mentor (though I elect to not make my icon visible) so I specialize in helping sprouts with crafting and gathering, so I don't have this problem but I do sympathize with PvE mentors who unsurprisingly have this ongoing dilemma of handling incorrigible sprouts.
Access to a world chat has always been the only reason most people bother obtaining mentor status. SE should create a global chat or even just a regional chat to weed those people out of the NN.
Since we're on the topic of EX trials, might as well add more input.
If the EX Primal in Mentor Roulette is Bismarck, Ravana, Lakshmi, or Susano EX, then I'll stay and give some advice to clear it because their mechanics are more doable with pugs than most other EX trials. In addition, the outgearing of most players should help skip the more problematic mechanics with more damage done (e.g., not seeing Final Liberation from Ravana was the norm while it was synced since patch 3.3 of Heavensward.)
If the EX Primal is Garuda, Ifrit, or Leviathan EX, I might give a benefit of a doubt with their mechanics being reasonable as well, albeit slightly more difficult to the average player than the previous 4 I mentioned earlier.
As far as the other EX Primals goes, forget it. Especially if the trial in questions is Ramuh, Thordan, Sephirot, Nidhogg, Shinryu, or Tsukuyomi EX. 60 minutes might not even be enough to cover all the mechanics and actually get to them.
A lot of people seem to have an inflated view of what the mentor system is. It's existence is to fill spots in rare duties that aren't popular anymore and to keep the duty finder moving, period. SE understands this and that's why they put a long mount grind to go with it. That's how it fulfills it's purpose. People leave various duties for a variety of reasons all the time regardless of being a mentor or not. I would imagine everyone here has been in a duty that someone left at some point. The only reason you're feeling like it's only mentors leaving these ex trials is because without the mentor system these duties probably wouldn't even pop in the first place most of the time.
I'm in Elemental (Japanese DC) and it's pure despair when you get thrown into Ifrit or Ramuh or Moogle EX and you get like 5J speakers and 3E speakers and 6 sprouts or so. First you need to face the language barrier, even if you can speak both you'll need to explain in both languages which means double time (and pray that these people actually try to read chats). Then you need to explain the mechs for every job. What tanks need to do. What healers need to do. What not to do. And in worse case, you need to explain the basics. What provoke is. What enmity is. How to heal (idk why but new ppl don't seem to understand the difference between cure and regen idk why). And worst case, equipment problem. low IL. Why it is important to update your equipment before going into contents.
And then of course, you get ppl saying "oh please don't ruin our first time experience. no we don't need spoilers" "forcing your play-style to others is against ToS." "can you just shut up it's my game I decide what to do."
I'm not saying that quitting before even starting is good, but the game really needs to give better education to novices. Mentors can and will teach basics to ppl who want to learn, but it's not something done INSIDE any EX content. So far the Hall of Novice is too useless to even exist.
Most new players are probably confused with the wording of the quests you get from EX trials as well: "Use the Duty Finder to confront Ramuh at the Striking Tree (Extreme)" I imagine for a new player, it would easily be taken as I MUST use Duty Finder, even if they know about Party Finder and premades.
Girlfriend fell for that actually on an alt. She read it say "Use the Duty Finder" And thought she'd just queue for it because, well... The quest told her to.
Ah the pain having to in progress into an EX trying to just carry the party out of a disaster. (dps was low, OT refused to tank Garuda's add for a good 20 minutes. I'm internally screaming.)
Like imagine if I signed up to do that consistently. I got LUCKY it took only half an hour to get through that.
I'd personally recommend that if we have to continue keeping EX trials in fights that when unlocking EX's there is a disclaimer for new people/those using DF.
I have to agree that using the duty finder prompt is a misleading thing, especially as party finder is the norm for many of these fights. It could even be something in line with the world of XIV stating "Use party finder to make a party with a group of adventurers and fight!" instead of just simply using duty finder.
Many new players don't know party finder is a thing/ never consider using it, and do queue for content through DF no matter what it is. I'm sure for JP this is a normal practice but at least on NA PF is the norm since it lets you know what you're getting into.
I'm a person who will help EX trials when I can but many inexperienced people wind up wasting their time in DF for the group to disband since someone is not pulling their weight. There are bad mentors, who wear the burger king crown for points, but there are just as many good ones who want to help, but we can't play others charactes for them, so explaining and hoping for the best is all we can do.
A lot of mentors are part of the hardcore elite gaming crowd, so make it easier for casuals to become mentors, instead of the insane 1500 recommendations requirement (that means you need to a dungeon 1500 times)
It doesn't change at all the real issues of mentor system, but I prefer 1500 commendations instead of 300. It was such easier to become mentor before and sometimes (often), a lot of mentors were as bad as novices ... because of this facility. Make ten Guildhests in a row, it takes you 1/2 minutes per guildhest, free commendations for you.
I mean, there are a few of them who are still incompetent but we feel it less than before. This new restriction has cleaned up a lot of mentors ... good mentors, unfortunately. Disastrous mentors too.
I want to support topic starter. I have been playing for six months. Unfortunately, in 90% of cases, mentors showed complete disregard for game mechanics and rudeness, they bullying and trolling beginners.
Do you really think that the mentor has the right to say: "Better then you everyway"? Or something like:"You're stupid.". These are real quotes, by the way.
Every time when I see a mentor in a dungeon, I prepare for the worst. In most cases, my fears come true. These people do not teach anyone, they do not help, they demand "do not waste their time" at best, and at worst they simply insult you. And, of course, no greeting or a recommendation. And, of course, it’s an old players.
Yes, probably these people make more complex content. But since when has content complexity become a determining parameter for human relationships and ... politeness?
In fairness, I met good people who really helped me and explained the mechanics. But I can only remember maybe about 10 times or so in all over 2 000 dungeons.
I don’t think that only I am so unfortunate. The mentor's system clearly does not work "as intended". And, in truth, it would be better if it will be reworked or even abolished.
It does need reworking, but without active policing from GMs, it will always be flawed.
I've noticed new players are actually incredibly reluctant to ask for help unless you have that crown on. To which, once more, should be a watering can. When I had my Burger King crown, people listened. Lost it? Not so much.
I offer help to people going through ARR and want to understand the story and game features better, but when I say "It's ok I don't mind" I'm met with the common answer of "I don't want to be a bother."
New players who aren't jaded or knowledgeable on the community and much less the forums aren't going to see things the same way. I like the system in theory, but it needs a full on Bahamut treatment.
I wouldn't say so. It's not as if the system is essential for anything else in the game to work. SE could take it out tomorrow and basically nothing will change. They could just put the rewards elsewhere in the game and that would be it.
So, they can make it better. But SE so far are taking it really slowly. The commendation increase was very much needed but with enough time anyone can gain enough of them, and just because you do does not mean you are remotely suitable for the role of a mentor.
A very simple change that could be pretty effective is changing the icon from a crown to something much more mundane like a watering can (nurturing the sprout type of thing). A crown symbolises royalty, the ruling class, those born into wealth and influence, those with more privilege...it absolutely does not represent teaching anything. I have met a few lovely mentors who wanted the role just for the crown. Not that any random icon would entice them. They love that it is specifically a crown.
There should also be an advanced form of the Novice Hall that you must pass in order to become a mentor. It would need to be a place where you get synced to specific stats that guarantee that the combat would present some degree of challenge. It would test more advanced mechanics every mentor should know: stack markers, proximity aoe markers, bosses with animations for attacks but no telegraphs, using line of sight to avoid attacks, how to use all the role actions, and so on.
That wouldn't be too difficult to introduce considering it would be using game mechanics that already exist and it's expanding on an already existing feature.
I doubt that changing the icon would have much of an effect. The novelty of the crown has already worn off by this point for most players but the sort of player to pursue an icon just for the sake of having something 'unique' that not everybody has access to is going to pursue it no matter what the icon actually is.
I agree with some sort of mandatory synced test for key mechanics, though. Every combat mentor should, ideally, be familiar with concepts such as stack markers, knockbacks, 'look away' attacks and other common but key mechanics.
I am not a mentor, but if I have the opportunity to explain the mechanics, I do it. I have been playing different MMOs, including hard content, for over 12 years. And for these 12 years for the first time I see such a disgusting attitude towards to new players and players to each other. In this game, whose community is "very friendly".
I come to the game to relax and have fun. And what am I getting? Someone who forces others to serve his / her interests, just because this person has a "crown", has more recommendations, "better then me everyway" and grinding next set of BiS or dragons from actual EX more intensive. This is just absurd, really.
In my previous MMO, raiders and players who wanted to be the best, were very concerned about their reputation. They knew that they could be remembered and recognized and they helped beginners without crown or any other special signs. They just wanted to get through the content as efficiently as possible, and for this they had to explain the tactics.
The situation is completely opposite here. Mentors just grinding the roulettes. When you go into the dungeon, and someone says that it's first time, mentors always remain silent. if you fail, they abandon your group or begin to insult you.
My friend has been a mentor for a long time. He is very kind and helpful person with a lot of patience. Recently, he does not use the icon next to the character's name. Because the crown has become a symbol of in-game abuse. This is an example of how a good idea has become a means of in-game discrimination and "hazing". Now my friends and I calling this type of mentors "dementors", cause they does not helping, but can easily ruin your good mood and game expirience.
This is the case for most mentors, good players, raiders on EU. None of us uses the crown, because it doesn't represent any skill or knowledge at all.
Idk why you think Mentors are raiders, but let me tell you: they're not. Well, most of them are not. Since you are playing on Chaos as well, all I can say is that you met the wrong people and should not lump them all together. Most good players are really nice, kind and helpful people, the ones that are abusive and rude usually aren't good at what they're doing and have to compensate their lack of self-esteem. :/
Ofc you always have bad apples in a community, but overall most ppl are at least trying to be polite or silent. I guess one could say being silent is rude, but for example I usually don't talk/chat during content unless I'm directly approached or something has to be explained or sorted, but it's not bc I want to be rude or anything.
Usually I never see a lot of chat in dungeons on Chaos anyways and there isn't really a need to talk about stuff. If we wipe once on something, I usually don't speak up bc ppl often want to and should try to figure out and learn stuff on their own. Just if it happens multiple times I try to give hints or help, like, idk. Being a mentor doesn't mean to carry ppl or just hand everything to them imo, but rather helping them reach the goal themselves. :)
Unfortunately, this is statistics. Most players with a crown badge behaved disgustingly. Most of them were well equipped and cleaned hard content. This can be easily understood by examing their weapons and equipment. I am not saying that all players are bad. Not really. But, unfortunately, the mentoring system has outlived itself. It's became the reason for abuse in most cases. Moreover, this is considered normal. When you go through roulette, you are more likely to meet a "dementor" than an helpful and cooperative player.
If you have a different experience, I am sincerely happy for you. But, as my friend said: "If I get $ 1, every time I meet a bad mentor, I would be incredible rich".
It's more personal experience than stastics, because in my experience 80% of mentors (as in ppl wearing the crown) have never entered a savage raid in their live, nor cleared one.
I do agree 90% of ppl wearing the Burger King Crown are bad. This has nothing to do with being raiders or anything tho and I just want to have mentors and raiders strictly seperated, because it has nothing to do with each other. :)
But I'm having a hard time to believe Chaos DF and roulettes are as bad as you describe them. 99% of my Dungeons/Trials/whatever are just silent and ppl bother only about themselves, which is perfectly fine imo. You don't have to be overly nice and approaching to be considered a decent human being. Polite silence is ok, too.
Hate to be your exception, but ive cleared all this raid tier and am progging tea, and I do my mentor roullete regularly and run the crown, because I actually go in to help people, just assuming people are bad with the crown just sets up people to not listen when someone with it actually tries to help (inb4 "turn the crown off and help anyway", can't do the roullete that way)
Unfortunately, they exist, and I have repeatedly met them. I will pray to the God of randomness, so as not to meet them again. And, as I already said, their gear (obtained in raids and extreme trials) gives a fairly clear idea.
Do not get me wrong. I was a raider in another game, and I really know how it works. There are type of people, in any game, who take every opportunity to assert themselves. Be it a pixel weapon or the same pixel crown next to the character’s name.
What I'm trying to say is that the mentoring system does not work. At the moment, it is very toxic and needs more thoughtful processing than just increasing the number of recommendations. Really good people remain unnoticed, because selfish guys with a crown are the majority. Unfortunately, now mentoring system is another tool to show the prestige. There is nothing, or very little, from actual support and help.