Dear Healers

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

Unfortunately the attitude this expac seems to be 'you're not the leader anymore, just a meatshield for bosses and for whatever we bring to you.' And while I have no patience for the entitled attitudes of the past where tanks were concerned, this is just as bad if not worse.

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Well if you have this mind set "tank is the leader" I'm grateful that you're no longer tanking. I prefer to have an average tank over an egocentric tank anyday.

Thanks for not tanking. o7

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Originally Posted by Iscah

"Healers, please look after your tank while they tank the tank."

The joys of language.

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Cleric, pray watcheth over thy Champion whilst they engage the enemy.

I don't chase people around to heal them. keeping track of 7 children can be more trouble then its worth. In the case of adds I focus on the tank(player) since the co-healer can babysit the other 5 since they're not supposed to take damage past basic raid aoe. In the event the other healer wants the tank I've no qualms doing the other.

As a healer that tries to generally position in a central spot to reach everyone if you're outside of my range its your fault. On spread out adds I just do what I can, but peeps gotta remember there's no heal that's the size of the entire arena so be mindful.

I was healing a dungeon on my WHM (can't remember which one >< ) and the tank actually thanked me for healing. I was like .. wut? Apparently they have come across so many healers who focus DPS over heals that it made the DFs not fun. That is such a shame.

I mean, the tank is my beefy meatshield I hide behind! We gotsta protect them!

Tanking Goliath...as WAR. Not solo but majority (including 6 of my pt member) go to other tank.

30% mit + nascent on first laser and raid wide with 2 chaos punts.

Rampart + reprise then EQ for second laser and raidwide.

Holmgang the third and my buddy got killed. No way to nascent my way out.
Popped thrill.

Then they finished up the other tank, other pts tank voke from me, get the laser and point it at my healers (and most of the alliance)

I appear to be the opposite of quite a few healers here in that I will adjust my position if I need to in order to heal team members. It is my primary job, after all, so if I saw a tank rapidly losing health, I’d shimmy right on over there to heal them if I am able to. Admittedly, being scholar means I can leave eos to babysit the rest of the team!

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Originally Posted by RubixCube

I appear to be the opposite of quite a few healers here in that I will adjust my position if I need to in order to heal team members. It is my primary job, after all, so if I saw a tank rapidly losing health, I’d shimmy right on over there to heal them if I am able to. Admittedly, being scholar means I can leave eos to babysit the rest of the team!

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Most healers will do that in the cases of adds needing to be kept apart or aoes to be un-stacked.

For my statement at least I'm referring to general things like dungeons and raids that don't require players to be very spread out due to adds or such. There's no reason for say a bard or a black mage to be on the edge of the arena out of aoe healing range if no movement dependent mechanic is happening.

Chasing people who are grossly out of position around can easily take quite a few gcds that would've ideally been used on dps instead.

The morale of the story: Be mindful of your position in relation to your teammates. Everyone has a shared responsibility to reposition as needed, not just tanks and healers.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

I don't chase people around to heal them. keeping track of 7 children can be more trouble then its worth. In the case of adds I focus on the tank(player) since the co-healer can babysit the other 5 since they're not supposed to take damage past basic raid aoe. In the event the other healer wants the tank I've no qualms doing the other.

As a healer that tries to generally position in a central spot to reach everyone if you're outside of my range its your fault. On spread out adds I just do what I can, but peeps gotta remember there's no heal that's the size of the entire arena so be mindful.

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I only heal sometimes and I NEVER had a Co-Healer that did anything. Q.Q

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

Most healers will do that in the cases of adds needing to be kept apart or aoes to be un-stacked.

For my statement at least I'm referring to general things like dungeons and raids that don't require players to be very spread out due to adds or such. There's no reason for say a bard or a black mage to be on the edge of the arena out of aoe healing range if no movement dependent mechanic is happening.

Chasing people who are grossly out of position around can easily take quite a few gcds that would've ideally been used on dps instead.

The morale of the story: Be mindful of your position in relation to your teammates. Everyone has a shared responsibility to reposition as needed, not just tanks and healers.

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I love when range will be 60 miles in Kentucky while I'm trying to heal them. It's so annoying!
Have you ever played with full ranges? The horror...
That said, I love when you put down Scared Soil or Asylum and they move to it. Does my heart good.
:eek:

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

I don't chase people around to heal them. keeping track of 7 children can be more trouble then its worth. In the case of adds I focus on the tank(player) since the co-healer can babysit the other 5 since they're not supposed to take damage past basic raid aoe. In the event the other healer wants the tank I've no qualms doing the other.

As a healer that tries to generally position in a central spot to reach everyone if you're outside of my range its your fault. On spread out adds I just do what I can, but peeps gotta remember there's no heal that's the size of the entire arena so be mindful.

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I only heal sometimes and I NEVER had a Co-Healer that did anything. Q.Q

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Originally Posted by Greyhawk

This isn't a tanking problem, or a healing problem - this is a stupidity issue within the raid. All it takes is the raid to work together for a change rather than against the mechanics. You can literally join near the center boss and attack either both tanks from behind each of them as a raid while the goliaths are faced away and AoE heal just fine. If one of your tanks is pointing the goliaths to the center of the platform, they should be slapped on the face and told to wake up.

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I wouldn't go as far as assuming everyone is what you say they are in the raid. Maybe a suggestion but hostility gets you nowhere.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

I wouldn't go as far as assuming everyone is what you say they are in the raid. Maybe a suggestion but hostility gets you nowhere.

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It's not hostility - it's a fact of functionality within a group of people working towards a common goal. Team-building exercises are no different. You work together to accomplish a common goal with little to no exertion of effort. This makes it easier for those with different roles within the group.

If you have a group of people making it difficult for a core necessity part of the group to accomplish the goal, they are offered the choice to make it more simple for the entire group rather than themselves, which is most of the time the problem that is within the group. Selfishness, not selflessness.

It's a raid of random people, if people don't know how to adjust to fix these situations on a personal level this is what happens.

Example: Knowing dps and tank split up often times on this fight because there's no "left or right first for alliance X"

Either adjust by telling your alliance to start on one tank, watch which one the dps go to, moan and groan at healers to heal you better, or play a tank with better invuln/personal healing(cough paladin) in this raid.

Those are the only likely ways to fix anything, if you can't trust others then work around them.

And of course, tanks aren't born leaders... just because they initiate a fight.

Havn't seen this happening in the nier raid. I always get heals while tanking whether im main tank or not.

I stay in the center and can usually heal both the tank and the dps who go to the other Goliath. Just gotta shimmy around the AoEs from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Greyhawk

It's not hostility - it's a fact of functionality within a group of people working towards a common goal. Team-building exercises are no different. You work together to accomplish a common goal with little to no exertion of effort. This makes it easier for those with different roles within the group.

If you have a group of people making it difficult for a core necessity part of the group to accomplish the goal, they are offered the choice to make it more simple for the entire group rather than themselves, which is most of the time the problem that is within the group. Selfishness, not selflessness.

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Team building exercises do not include degrading other people in your team. Complete opposite effect.

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

This kind of response boggles my mind. Probably because I've seen this sort of thing in action unfortunately, and what usually ends up happening is that the Goliath then turns around to the next highest in threat which is a Melee DPS. Then, because the tanks are positioned the way they are the next tank buster blast is aimed at every single melee dps, healers, and the tank handling the other goliath. If this doesn't wipe the raid at best you are looking at finishing that part with a lot of dead people, to include healers. All because Two healers decided their dps members were more important than the guy keeping the death beam pointed away.

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I've never had a raid wipe in Copied Factory under my healing supervision. I keep alive whoever's necessary to be kept alive. Simple as it sounds, the tank is not always crucial to the raids survival. Meanwhile the time that the tank is likely to die at that point is from those beams, so I have plenty of time to raise the tank and for them to get enmity back.

Not to mention there's 3 player tanks, and 2 enemy tanks. 1 is expendable here.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

the same could be said about you the tank who isn't with his party and attacking the wrong goliath tank XD

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Hold up.

Last boss, "Engage Goliath Tank Support" fires, dropping two tanks on the field. Both tanks will tank buster multiple times. Kill both. Boss picks one at random to explode, where the raid has to run to the opposite corner to hide behind the corpse of the other tank, wait for the explosion, and then run back out to avoid the explosion of the corpse they just used as cover.

There are two tanks being engaged simultaneously - not three... Not the adds phases of the bosses in this zone where A B and C separate, but two corners of the field.

If one of my healers told me I was on the wrong tank for that specific part, where there is no set or accepted placement of A B and C (at least from what I have seen, and I think I've ran this as a tank now moire times than I care to admit to), then that screams to me the healer is just trying to cover their own mistakes.

Healers INTENTIONALLY not staying in range of their tank, for whatever reason, is bad form and bad play. Just like it's bad form to AFK through a Labryrinth alliance run cause you know they won't get a vote off before the 5 minute window, and the loot will protect you the rest of the time.

Typically, but not always, and at least on Aether.... Whoever is tanking the boss stays in the middle. When the goliath tanks are dropping, the other two tanks generally tank stance up and grab them. Not always, though, and sometimes the MT will try to grab all three for no reason at all. But that's not concrete.

Now if A's tank role was at C's spot in an ABC adds phase, that's different. That's when saying something about wrong spot, over here, ac "Rescue" or something comes into play.

Goliath tanks... is this the part where two add tanks spawn on opposite corners and we split between them?

I've noticed many times that I get 3 tanks on one and 0 on the other... or my whole group goes to one marked for it... except for our tank... who goes to the other one...

I notice things like that on several ad spawns in there... even when we put down the A, B, C marks - either a healer or a tank goes with the wrong group. In the chaos I've done it a few times myself... so it's more when it becomes a pattern that it gets annoying.

I need to try tanking that place... except my GNB didn't need any of the gear and my SCH was the least geared 80 I had when it came out... I wonder how many other people are using it for that - gearing their alt jobs. we've had gear at or better than it for so long now even people like me that are NOT doing savage raids generally don't need the gear from it for our main jobs. For people actually in savage the Alliance raid is a waste of time except for on that 'alt job' they rarely use otherwise... So there's kinda bound to be some confusion...

Just glad I never been in any these raid parties ones is talking about. All Nier raids I have ran other than first week have all gone really smooth.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

Goliath tanks... is this the part where two add tanks spawn on opposite corners and we split between them?

I've noticed many times that I get 3 tanks on one and 0 on the other... or my whole group goes to one marked for it... except for our tank... who goes to the other one...

I notice things like that on several ad spawns in there... even when we put down the A, B, C marks - either a healer or a tank goes with the wrong group. In the chaos I've done it a few times myself... so it's more when it becomes a pattern that it gets annoying.

I need to try tanking that place... except my GNB didn't need any of the gear and my SCH was the least geared 80 I had when it came out... I wonder how many other people are using it for that - gearing their alt jobs. we've had gear at or better than it for so long now even people like me that are NOT doing savage raids generally don't need the gear from it for our main jobs. For people actually in savage the Alliance raid is a waste of time except for on that 'alt job' they rarely use otherwise... So there's kinda bound to be some confusion...

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Yes, that fight has two phases of adds - one of the 2 tanks in opposing corners, the other with the mini versions of boss 1 in ABC setup.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

I need to try tanking that place... except my GNB didn't need any of the gear and my SCH was the least geared 80 I had when it came out... I wonder how many other people are using it for that - gearing their alt jobs. we've had gear at or better than it for so long now even people like me that are NOT doing savage raids generally don't need the gear from it for our main jobs. For people actually in savage the Alliance raid is a waste of time except for on that 'alt job' they rarely use otherwise... So there's kinda bound to be some confusion...

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I feel like this phase when loot is restricted is the best time to be gearing for alt jobs, because there's far less chance that people will be rolling Need on pieces they're entitled to when they can only choose one piece per week. It's the best opportunity for acquiring tank/healer gear, or any role you're not keen on actually taking into the raid, that might simply be abandoned otherwise.

lmao what a nice piece of a fanart to summarize all of this
https://i.redd.it/p27kvrv9hw141.png

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Originally Posted by Freyt

lmao what a nice piece of a fanart to summarize all of this
https://i.redd.it/p27kvrv9hw141.png

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So next time, as a tank, stay in the middle in that healing zone, and let the tank adds frontal the entire raid and wipe everyone.

Gotcha.

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Originally Posted by JBee

So next time, as a tank, stay in the middle in that healing zone, and let the tank adds frontal the entire raid and wipe everyone.

Gotcha.

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That whooshing sound? That's you missing the point. The point of that comic is how his entire group is spread all over to Timbuktu, the other healer is dead, and people are wondering why they don't get healed. His tank is INSIDE his healing range. I'd imagine it's a DPS complaining about no healing.

Regardless, in that instance, I'm going where the tank goes and if no one else follows: If they die, they die.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

That whooshing sound? That's you missing the point. The point of that comic is how his entire group is spread all over to Timbuktu, the other healer is dead, and people are wondering why they don't get healed. His tank is INSIDE his healing range. I'd imagine it's a DPS complaining about no healing.

Regardless, in that instance, I'm going where the tank goes and if no one else follows: If they die, they die.

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I'm sorry, you must be mistaken. No whooshing sound here. You should perhaps go back to the original post and see how they are talking about this moment in this fight... Unless you want the tanks to cleave the raid, they better well not be standing in the middle. That comic is very much representing how they can't be everywhere at once, and a lot of people are out of their range....

But fact is, you can't be a healer standing in the middle of that area in that part of the fight and expect anything else. It's like lighting your clothes on fire and complaining you're warm. I like this artist's comics - seen them for quite some time. But in this case, no, they are just showing their lack of knowledge of the fight or their stubbornness.

Granted, it's a strange part of the fight. 3 groups, 2 mobs to fight. No real accepted way to deal with it. If there were, or if there were three tanks instead of two, something, wouldn't be an issue.

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Originally Posted by JBee

I'm sorry, you must be mistaken. No whooshing sound here. You should perhaps go back to the original post and see how they are talking about this moment in this fight... Unless you want the tanks to cleave the raid, they better well not be standing in the middle. That comic is very much representing how they can't be everywhere at once, and a lot of people are out of their range....

But fact is, you can't be a healer standing in the middle of that area in that part of the fight and expect anything else. It's like lighting your clothes on fire and complaining you're warm. I like this artist's comics - seen them for quite some time. But in this case, no, they are just showing their lack of knowledge of the fight or their stubbornness.

Granted, it's a strange part of the fight. 3 groups, 2 mobs to fight. No real accepted way to deal with it. If there were, or if there were three tanks instead of two, something, wouldn't be an issue.

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Or you know they were using visual metaphor to explain the limits of the healer's range and the fact that their party was spread out. It looks less like an endorsement of 'I'm staying in the middle, get cleaved losers' and more 'I have to run between these two points because my party is incapable of watching where our resident tank has gone and I'm getting blamed for their outright stupidity'. Which, frankly, is fair. It's why almost every healer who runs that instance has to adopt a mentality of 'if they die, they die' to any DPS who decides to attack the opposite add of the party tank. Could they have gotten that across more clearly? Certainly. However I really don't at any point get the sense that the artist is endorsing staying in the middle, more the futility of the entire situation.

Dear healers.

Thank you for trying your best.
Love you, even when things go south.

The few times I grabbed a Goliath Tank, my healers healed me.

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Originally Posted by JBee

I'm sorry, you must be mistaken. No whooshing sound here. You should perhaps go back to the original post and see how they are talking about this moment in this fight... Unless you want the tanks to cleave the raid, they better well not be standing in the middle. That comic is very much representing how they can't be everywhere at once, and a lot of people are out of their range....

But fact is, you can't be a healer standing in the middle of that area in that part of the fight and expect anything else. .

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The comic doesn't say anything about where the tank should stand.

The clear message I'm seeing is "please make sure the entire party stands around one tank so the healer can move to a position where everyone is within healing range at once."

The healer is clearly trying to position themselves at the midpoint of where all the other party members are standing - which is the ineffective middle of the arena because the others are too spread out, not because they chose it.

It's like this in PvP too, I try to be where most of my party members are, but there will always be those too far away and scattered that I cannot save, and then they complain about no heals.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

It's like this in PvP too, I try to be where most of my party members are, but there will always be those too far away and scattered that I cannot save, and then they complain about no heals.

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I've noticed this a lot myself. I try not to jump deep into an enemy group as a healer, because of course I'll get swarmed and killed. So when a DPS decides that something way in the back absolutely must die... they kinda have to accept I won't be healing them for their nonsense.

you can always communicate with the healer instead of just running around and hoping. As a healer, alot of times I get pulled around by dps getting damaged when EVERYONE in the group is too spread out for group heals. I never look badly on a tank to speaks about problems he/she sees occurring.