I hate to, but I think I put down healing for now. Please make it engaging again, SE.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

My main concern and why I'm more in the pro-DPS column is that to retroactively implement ways to make the current healing toolkit more engaging with existing content would be a lot of work I don't see SE doing. Great if they design future content around it, but it'd mean any content prior to this was still suck to heal. If Hade Ex is an example of this, great, I've yet to try healing it.

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I don't disagree with your points overall but just to address this in particular:

1. I agree with your pragmatic concerns about such a healing overhaul. I still think it's worth saying - maybe SE's developers will find an alternative road to the same end. Maybe a partial revert to old DPS kits is "good enough".
2. Hades EX - at least in my opinion - is not a challenge to heal. It's Neo-Exdeath easy mode, more or less. And even in Neo Exdeath, we still spent most of our time pushing those DPS buttons.

People really want a new healer in 6.0, so wouldn't it be fair to say that if they are going to "overhaul" healers that it will be balanced around that.
Like the tanks were rebalanced to allow GNB to have function, and Dancer pushed Machinist into a "Mostly" pure DPS role.

I've seen few hardcore healers leave the role since Shadowbringers launched, mainly Astrologians.
It's sad but with this many jobs it's always going to balance things perfectly.

Just give me a gorram rotation, that's all I want. They're not going to put in the effort to fix the other problems, so at the very least - do that.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

2. Hades EX - at least in my opinion - is not a challenge to heal. It's Neo-Exdeath easy mode, more or less. And even in Neo Exdeath, we still spent most of our time pushing those DPS buttons.

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I'm pointing it out more as an example of increased healing requirements, rather than a challenge. An example of increased healing requirements that have not made Hades Ex a big obstacle even for the more casual players.

At the end of the day, given enough experience, nothing is a challenge. It is more of a challenge to heal 7 people who have not seen Titan Normal before than it is to heal your static in Titan Savage.

Healers are unique in this way, because your party determines how much work you have to do. The only way to provide a healing challenge is by leveraging randomness in such a way that it requires you to make decisions on the fly. But I'm sure I don't need to tell you how much of an impact randomisation will make to difficulty.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

I'm pointing it out more as an example of increased healing requirements, rather than a challenge. An example of increased healing requirements that have not made Hades Ex a big obstacle even for the more casual players.

At the end of the day, given enough experience, nothing is a challenge. It is more of a challenge to heal 7 people who have not seen Titan Normal before than it is to heal your static in Titan Savage.

Healers are unique in this way, because your party determines how much work you have to do. The only way to provide a healing challenge is by leveraging randomness in such a way that it requires you to make decisions on the fly. But I'm sure I don't need to tell you how much of an impact randomisation will make to difficulty.

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This uniqueness I think it one thing that gives a fairer argument for giving us more to do in our downtime. As I've mentioned in other threads, the better you are at DPS the more you have to do, the better you are at tanking the more you have to do, the better you are at healing, the less you have to do.

IMO it is the fairest compromise. Content should determine how much you engage DPS now arbitrary removing DPS options, because now there is a hole to fill. And anybody who likes the way healers are can still play it exactly as they are now.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

At the end of the day, given enough experience, nothing is a challenge. It is more of a challenge to heal 7 people who have not seen Titan Normal before than it is to heal your static in Titan Savage.

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Hm, maybe. I'm not so sure the only way to make healing more used is to count on people messing up, though.

I can't say I liked AST's card system both pre and post ShB. Maybe the 4th healer will have some other auxiliary I find more fun, and I'll settle for that...

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Some of these have duplicates in other kits, some don't, but the point is - you have options when selecting a heal, each with benefits and drawbacks and resources to consider.

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You are the correct that the current design is much more engaging when you are actually under pressure. That said, you are vastly overstating the differences between each of the different buttons. When it comes down to it, Emergency Tactics > Succor, Indom, Seraph, Fey Blessing all exist for one express purpose: To be backup buttons for each other. Is one on cooldown? You use another. Is one lacking resources? You still good, you have a backup. Their differences begin to matter less when I need to throw them out in response to the same stimuli, for the same reasons.

They had healer design working at one point; It was in ARR. Scholar was an extremely tight design where every skill served a purpose and there were limitations that demanded I respond to mechanics differently than White Mage. It mattered that I was limited to Aetherflow stacks because if I mismanaged them I didn't have four different oGCD heals as backup. Likewise, Adlo and Succor were prohibitively expensive so I wanted to use them smartly and sparingly (and mostly predictively), rather than as my main GCD heals. And then when I needed to dps, I had a pretty neat DoT-based rotation to play with (and later, Shadowflare).

Currently, there's a fundamental misunderstand that simply having a lot of heals means healing will be more engaging. I'm of the opinion that limitations breeds creativity-- when every situation is a puzzle of how to use your limited moveset to approach a problem, healing becomes engaging. As it is, I have few limitations.

I think the best solution to boring healer gameplay is to lean into the "green DPS" stereotype. Changing encounter design to add sources of consistent, unavoidable, single-target damage would force healers to engage with the rest of their kit more often, but would bring gameplay into collision with the worst parts of the interface (constant retargeting and/or gimped macros). That's an underlying engine problem that would almost certainly require more dev resources to fix than adding (or re-adding) more DPS rotational complexity to healers.

And hey, as a healer player who came from WoW, it's kind of fresh to base my performance on damage output for a change. Healing the team is comically easy compared to WoW, but doing it with the minimum possible resources causes a meaningful DPS gain here. That's not a fundamentally bad system, I just wish there was more to the rotation that I'm doing the majority of the time.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

DPS skills were removed, which made room for more healing spells, but I think the old balance was fine and wouldn't be rocking the boat having that.

My main concern and why I'm more in the pro-DPS column is that to retroactively implement ways to make the current healing toolkit more engaging with existing content would be a lot of work I don't see SE doing. Great if they design future content around it, but it'd mean any content prior to this was still suck to heal. If Hade Ex is an example of this, great, I've yet to try healing it.

Maybe meeting the middle, don't remove heal spells, add more DPS spells, design future content so it engages your heals more so your reduced DPS usage comes from content mechanics and not from removing abilities.

It means in content where we have more downtime to DPS, we have something to fill it. And it doesn't have to be DPS either, other support skills too, like AST currently has (and is why AST is the least boring for me ATM).

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I suppose the one saving grace to this is SE has mentioned doing a stat crunch possibly in 6.0. Doing so would force a re-balance of every piece of content already. Thus, it wouldn't be unfeasible they could adjust old content around a hypothetical increase in healing over DPS.

I have played all roles periodically since 1.0, starting as dps, then dabbling in tanking and moved onto healing. I am not the best healer by ANY stretch of the imagination, but I enjoyed it and was excited to try each new one until I got my hands on AST. At first it felt like a WHM clone with cards, but there was something different about it that I couldn't quite put my finger on at the time. Over the Expacs I've come to truly love AST and was over the moon when it was, in my opinion, at it's peak in SB. The 5.0 iterations of the healers have seriously put a sour taste in my mouth. WHM is in a good place right now, but only because the other two just feel so... bland.

It has come to a point where, instead of enjoying my favorite class and doing the grind for gear and upping my stats, I have taken a step back from the game and only really play for pixies dailies and story. I have become so unmotivated to play, which isn't a bad thing, gives me time to catch up on other games which is fine with me. I know there are other jobs out there, and i've played with a couple, but the direction a lot of the jobs have gone in this expac haven't really made me want to dive in either lol.

My AST has become a glorified Ken Doll, fun to dress up but not really good for much else.

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Originally Posted by Verlyn

You are the correct that the current design is much more engaging when you are actually under pressure. That said, you are vastly overstating the differences between each of the different buttons. When it comes down to it, Emergency Tactics > Succor, Indom, Seraph, Fey Blessing all exist for one express purpose: To be backup buttons for each other. Is one on cooldown? You use another. Is one lacking resources? You still good, you have a backup. Their differences begin to matter less when I need to throw them out in response to the same stimuli, for the same reasons.

They had healer design working at one point; It was in ARR. Scholar was an extremely tight design where every skill served a purpose and there were limitations that demanded I respond to mechanics differently than White Mage. It mattered that I was limited to Aetherflow stacks because if I mismanaged them I didn't have four different oGCD heals as backup. Likewise, Adlo and Succor were prohibitively expensive so I wanted to use them smartly and sparingly (and mostly predictively), rather than as my main GCD heals. And then when I needed to dps, I had a pretty neat DoT-based rotation to play with (and later, Shadowflare).

Currently, there's a fundamental misunderstand that simply having a lot of heals means healing will be more engaging. I'm of the opinion that limitations breeds creativity-- when every situation is a puzzle of how to use your limited moveset to approach a problem, healing becomes engaging. As it is, I have few limitations.

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I think this is fair comment. 2.0 healer design was my favourite and for the reasons you've listed. And I never felt the 2.0 healing was inaccessible to new players, after all I started out as a SCH (it's one argument I keep on seeing for more simplicity is being accessible for new players) and I also coached some new SCH's too, and if anything I praised the game for how it eases you in. Rather than the job being accessible through simplicity, but more about how the game teaches you.

That's why stuff like Sastasha, TamTara and friends are good dungeons for the start of the game (heck guildhests were like dungeon training, but I suspect nobody does them anymore). They game eases you in, there's lots of room to make mistakes on any role and the difficulty gets gradual with the odd dungeon or fight acted as a check for your abilities. By the time you get to endgame, you've learned to play the job and role. And to add, if you wanted something more straight forward, you had WHM and if you wanted something where you're planning more, you had SCH.


I think healer design now (and maybe after potency tweaks) still has the potential to fulfill that niche, but it'd require designing encounters around it. But that'd be a considerable amount of work, arguably. This was my argument back in the media tour, the changes to healers would make healing boring unless they change encounter design...and they haven't.

I mentioned this in another post but I have all healers at 80 and the problem I have with it now is that it's boring. Not because it's 'easy' but because even though the healer kit has been expanded or changed, there's literally 3 dps spells per healer. A DoT, an AoE and a single-target damage spell and theres very little variation between them. No way to spread/layer DoT. And there's no more general healing buff (Largesse) that lets you layer a buffed HoT while you go to town. All the things that used to make the healers stand apart, to identify them now are just clunky or useless window dressing.

When I can heal high level casual content with a fourth of my SCH kit (using the pets for auto healing only--because I don't remember what all of the new actions are or do) why pick one over the other? Its literally easier to just take WHM for everything and not bother with the extraneous things that once defined the other jobs but now are just more things to divide your focus on.

Healer is just for fast que nowadays. I used to kind of enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

It is kind of interesting that you two bring this up. Currently, on the tank forums, there is a very heated discussion where a lot of tanks are rather angry that healers have comparable DPS to them. That their DPS rotations are 9~12 buttons is sometimes cited as a reason why tank DPS should be significantly higher than healers'.

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Not gonna lie I'm a little concerned that square will end up radically reducing healers dps output now. Main reason is it is a role other than healer that is complaining.

Edit- I don't mean that as a dig at tanks. I'm saying all other roles opinions matter more to square enix than healer.-End edit.

I believe a big contributing factor for Astros being reduced to walking balances was because of certain dpses all to "happy" to say thats all ast. did anyway.

Healing in FF has gone downhill since HW.
It went from a great synergy of both healers having to cover for each other and work together to heal, to now where every healer heals the same and the only difference is the way it's done.

Honestly imo, if they want to fix healing in FFXIV they need to nerf all the healers down by a lot. Not specifically potencies, but the amount of instant healing nukes we all have available. There's no reason to focus on healing when you can tap one button or put out one regen and everyone is fine.

Now they're at this stage where all the healing kits function the same and their utility is different, and it's even worse. Because at least HW and SB tried to make their healing unique. Now all that sets us apart is how much dps we can pump out.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Healing in FF has gone downhill since HW.
It went from a great synergy of both healers having to cover for each other and work together to heal, to now where every healer heals the same and the only difference is the way it's done.

Honestly imo, if they want to fix healing in FFXIV they need to nerf all the healers down by a lot. Not specifically potencies, but the amount of instant healing nukes we all have available. There's no reason to focus on healing when you can tap one button or put out one regen and everyone is fine.

Now they're at this stage where all the healing kits function the same and their utility is different, and it's even worse. Because at least HW and SB tried to make their healing unique. Now all that sets us apart is how much dps we can pump out.

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I have to agree with that. If you look at healer abilities in the levels 51 to 80, there's filler and dot upgrades (= zero gameplay changes) , and nothing but healing and support CDs. WHM is the only exception with the addition of Afflatus spells.
Heavensward actually gave us more dps abilities post 50 (Earthly star, Aero III, Assize), and then SB and ShB took everything away and gave us more and more unnecessary healing CDs.

And while I can think of a ton of dps abilities that were removed over time (all of our dots tiers, Shadowflare, Miasma II, Aero III, Lord of Crowns, Fluid Aura...) , I can't think of a single healing spell or CD that suffered the same fate. Every single healing source we ever got still lives to this day, and we even have other abilities getting converted into more healing buttons (Celestial Opposition).

At this point I'm wondering if we will ever get any new damage buttons, or if 6.0 will just give us 4 more healing CDs per class that will permanently make our spells obsolete.


I already know I won't preorder 6.0 and, if we just get a repeat of 5.0, I'll probably just not bother purchasing the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Healing in FF has gone downhill since HW.
It went from a great synergy of both healers having to cover for each other and work together to heal, to now where every healer heals the same and the only difference is the way it's done.

Honestly imo, if they want to fix healing in FFXIV they need to nerf all the healers down by a lot. Not specifically potencies, but the amount of instant healing nukes we all have available. There's no reason to focus on healing when you can tap one button or put out one regen and everyone is fine.

Now they're at this stage where all the healing kits function the same and their utility is different, and it's even worse. Because at least HW and SB tried to make their healing unique. Now all that sets us apart is how much dps we can pump out.

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Absolutely agreed.

I mean I can heal anyone from sub 20% health to full in a couple GCDs, maybe less. I know I'm a WHM and it's pure healing but that's ludicrous. I never have to worry about MP - back in ARR I had that as a constant on my shoulder 'Do I Holy? No, MP, big hit coming.' Sort of thing.

I also feel like the whole 'Class Fantasy' thing SE likes to go on about is absolutely lacking now as well.

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Originally Posted by vtndll

Not gonna lie I'm a little concerned that square will end up radically reducing healers dps output now. Main reason is it is a role other than healer that is complaining.

Edit- I don't mean that as a dig at tanks. I'm saying all other roles opinions matter more to square enix than healer.-End edit.

I believe a big contributing factor for Astros being reduced to walking balances was because of certain dpses all to "happy" to say thats all ast. did anyway.

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There will be a riot if SE does.

Doesn't necessarily mean they won't, though.

Just like many other MMOs, there is a lack of healers in FFXIV which is only natural. People are not as drawn to that role.
And I understand that devs want to eliminate the problems this causes with the logical conclusion being making healing in general more accessible. But by making it so monotonous they only succeeded in driving many dedicated healers away while barely reeling in new healers.
I know so many people, myself included, who quit healing sometime during ShB because improving just so you can be more bored hardly feels rewarding. However I only know one person who got somewhat into healing but he never touched them again after bringing them to 80.
Right now, FFXIV is the game where I enjoy healing the least.

I enjoyed it for many years. I enjoyed the clunky cleric stance dance, having to be really careful with holy because of it's insane MP costs, keeping up several dots, watching my aggro because dpsing while healing could easily tempt mobs to make a beeline for you, falling back to Cure I - freecure - Cure II healing if fights took long and MP became an issue, falling back to Break spam if I was close to drained but still wanted to dps and just generally having to manage my resources better because they were more scarce.
Basic healing was accessible enough. New healers could always fall back on relying on their basic hardcast toolkit and would've been fine.
Cleric Stance, managing dots, managing dpsing vs healing etc was a bonus you started utilizing after you got comfortable and not something you needed to get right frmo the start.

We have so many healing buttons and all we use them for is to free up more time to press one button.

Go heal TEA you'll be engaged again

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Originally Posted by Alynn

Go heal TEA you'll be engaged again

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True, but you should be able to have anything to do fr leveling dungeons to Ultimate. You should not have only a sparse amount of content where your only action is broil/malefic/glare. You should be able to be engaged no matter the content, and that's where this expansion has failed.

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Originally Posted by Alynn

Go heal TEA you'll be engaged again

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That's complete bullshit and sounds incredibly arrogant.
If a game is designed so you can only be engaged and have in the absolute highest endgame content, it's poorly designed indeed. Escpecially when it tries so hard to reel in players of all kinds, including casual and midcore.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Basic healing was accessible enough. New healers could always fall back on relying on their basic hardcast toolkit and would've been fine.
Cleric Stance, managing dots, managing dpsing vs healing etc was a bonus you started utilizing after you got comfortable and not something you needed to get right frmo the start.

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Thinking on the making healing more accessible and my earlier comments commending how the game by design teaches you, I get maybe since ARR it has not necessarily be the case, given my experience was with the original progression for the game.

So instead of making them accessible through making the jobs easier to play, instead offer new ways for people to learn and gain the confidence of playing a healer role.

Hall of the novice was a good kickstart, but an upgrade on that, particularly easing people into actual content with actual groups and situations to help teach the role might be a good approach. Even helping people realise they don't have to focus DPS, especially when learning and promote good practice and ways for people to practice.

Because they could start it simple, get the basics down require them to queue as a healer for a specific dungeon to put into practice what they've learned.

I realise it's a hand-holding approach, but I think it's a more meaningful way of making healing more approachable (and could be applied to other roles), and it's a way to clear misconceptions too and built confidence in less confident healers. Because "they're too complex" is not the only reason why people struggle and killing the complexity could also make it dull for them once they have that confidence and experience behind them.

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Originally Posted by Alynn

Go heal TEA you'll be engaged again

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I have and i'll tell you i'm more engaged by the mechanics than i am from anything in my kit, not to say everything eventually loses it luster after awhile but nothing really flows well on any healer and that is where the monotony kicks in.

Also i shouldn't have to be in content designed for the 1-2% to get any level of engagement from a job let alone an entire role >_>

Trying to figure out what SE was thinking with AST. Played this today and..all cards do the same thing..

YoshiP sure responded quick about the Ishgard issue, but still no real communication about us healers.

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Originally Posted by Alynn

Go heal TEA you'll be engaged again

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Not even then. During SB, there were healers who solo-healed UCoB and UwU. The absolute hardest fights in the game were doable with only one healer. In ShB, E4S has been solo-healed by Noct AST, universally acknowledged as the weakest healer in the game.

That's how absurdly powerful healer kits are, relative to boss damage. The hardest fights in the game, designed and intended for two-healer parties, can be completed with only one healer, even when that healer is the worst healer job in the game.

TBPH, I'm a bit surprised the healing meta hasn't yet shifted to X/RDM, replacing the second healer with a rez-mage whose job is to deal damage and rez the healer if they go down. RDM might be lacking in DPS compared to other casters, but it's still way ahead of healers.

Additionally, people who go, "bUt Ur A hEaLeR u DoNt NeEd DaMaGe SkIlLz," forget that the MSQ exists. Back in SB, I leveled SAM specifically because by the time I reached L62 on my AST, Malefic-spamming my way through the MSQ had gotten so boring that my brain was trying to escape through my ears. You can't heal enemies to death, and you have no party members to heal, so 95% of your skills go unused when playing solo. In a game where solo story content is one of its biggest selling points, this is not good design.

As healers stand right now, your DPS rotation at level 80 is the same as it is at level 4. And this is how I know nobody on the dev team actually plays a healer. If Yoshi-P forced them to sit down and Stone/Ruin/Malefic-spam a healer from L1 all the way through ARR, through the 7AE quests, through all of HW and all of SB and all of ShB, the dev team would very quickly fix this problem. But that'll never happen, because nobody on the dev team plays a healer, and even Yoshi-P seems to treat the role as an afterthought, a second-class-citizen "Baby's First MMO" role that exists only so peoples' non-gaming friends/spouses/grandpas can play with them.

The bottom line is, it's not enough for healing to only be engaging if you play the absolute top-difficulty content in the game. There's no excuse for healing to be boring in 99% of the game, not when DPS and Tank roles are engaging at any difficulty level.

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Originally Posted by althenawhm

YoshiP sure responded quick about the Ishgard issue, but still no real communication about us healers.

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As far as Yoshi/SE is concerned, healers are a lost cause that only gets seriously touched on at the beginning of the expansion.
Don't you see his reaction everytime someone brings up a healer? He either laughs or jokingly sighs. But when a DPS is brought up, woo boy redesigned asap.

I think the issue is no one at SE really understands healers and what we want from them. They really do need to hire fresh class designers. They obviously have some talent in designing DPS roles, but they make a huge nosedive in quality when it comes to healers.

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Originally Posted by althenawhm

YoshiP sure responded quick about the Ishgard issue, but still no real communication about us healers.

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I wouldn't expect anything until 6.0.

And that's assuming we don't get screwed over for an additional 2 years after that.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

I wouldn't expect anything until 6.0.

And that's assuming we don't get screwed over for an additional 2 years after that.

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When 6.0 rolls around I'll be waiting for the " no new healers this expansion so we can balance the ones we have excuse". . .

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Originally Posted by Alynn

Go heal TEA you'll be engaged again

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I can definitly see where you're coming from, learning to heal an Extreme or up blind is fun, but I think this exapserates the problem we've had by being told to "wait until you try it/first dungeon/last dungeon/Extreme/Savage/Ultimate/Diadem/Next expansion." I waited whole of Stormblood for them to wake up to or the very least talk about what they did to Scholar and Healers in general, instead I got Broil III.

We're currently in 5.1, after the base game and three expansions in six years the game is currently having two hundred-and-twenty-five (number might be off, but still god damn) wherein less than ten are High-End duties, many are being reported here as already solo-healed, that leaves us rougly zero-point-five percent of the current combat scenarios as one Ultimate being where my favorite job comes alive. Of course, far from all those end up in Roulettes and see daily visit, but you also have fights/fates in the world, Deep Dungeon, Eureka and MSQ solo duties. I find it a too massive a number of scenarios where I only have a 2.5s cast and 30s dot to use regurarly.

That I also could toggle a well-known and boring Brayflox into an exciting one with by just pressing Cleric Stance and go to town with Bane while putting more pressure on my healing is something I find is further testament that SE is wearing sideblinders on top of watching jobs through a microscopic lens with one eye, tweaking with a tiny instrument and a Ultimate timeline guide glued to the other eye while every other combat scenario deteriorates around them.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

As far as Yoshi/SE is concerned, healers are a lost cause that only gets seriously touched on at the beginning of the expansion.
Don't you see his reaction everytime someone brings up a healer? He either laughs or jokingly sighs. But when a DPS is brought up, woo boy redesigned asap.

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I want to believe SE knows how to design a healer as a job fit for everything the game throws at you, thats from experiencing Scholar in Heavensward.

Went through interviews and found one after HW released they gave a well and long explanations of how ast was designed to be generally weaker healer, but made up for it with random but strong buffs. It was insightful and gave ideas on how they wanted the job to work and the challenges that brought with it. I've never seen them talk about any of the healers in the same capacity ever since.

So I keep posting here, in hopes one day a Community Manager mistakenly presses "Healer Roles" instead of "DPS Roles", sees the concerns, then goes back to their intended destination mumbling "I ain't payed enough to go there." Hyperbole of course, I still don't know if they read or acknowledge anything here as they never seem to tell us anything.

And that's the thing, they already have done a fantastic job, healers in this game used to be great and we're IMO well designed. But for some reason they've gradually undone their good work.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

And that's the thing, they already have done a fantastic job, healers in this game used to be great and we're IMO well designed. But for some reason they've gradually undone their good work.

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Also why I do feel bad for complaining so much and need to stop myself before that attitude spirals into really unkind posts here directed at the developers. Cause I have and will bring credit where it's due: I think Shadowbringers is great, the story, the choregraphed fights, the music, the sights, sounds and the pacing of finding a new zone killing it's Warden then going back to the inn for rest and reflection. The grand escapade of the MSQ to the little quips of NPCs around and the frankly staggering amount of stuff already there. I've barely scraped the surface of in Gold Saucer, crafting, gathering, minion/mount/achievement hunting, doing fun stuff with the FC, learning a new job or just the quiet moments fishing without any goal watching the world pass by. There are tons of things here I will probably never experience and that's just fine with me.

Seeing this quality everywhere else just makes Scholar and by extension Healers stand out like a sore thumb for me and the lack of information about it so much more prominently.

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Originally Posted by Alynn

Go heal TEA you'll be engaged again

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"Go heal with one hand while spelling backwards the name of each of your targets, all while blindfolded and tapdancing, and then dare to tell me that healers are still boring"

Being able to participate in a near-impossible challenge does not justify being neutered without consent.

I don't want to do TEA, can I get my old skills back?

This is always going to be a problem, no matter what, due to the scripted nature of encounters in the game. Content is not designed and can not be designed to be interesting forever so long as encounters are scripted.

Try a DPS in Titan. If you're playing the job well and are generally consistent, you'll notice, say - after 10 clears, that you're doing the exact same thing. If you're very consistent, you're repeating the fight down to the GCD.
Go to one of those players with 50+ clears trying to get their 100 percentile parse - "What GCD are you using during the 2nd tumult after the first uplift?". They'll tell you.
This is different to healers telling you what they use to heal those tumults ... because reasons?

Every job has this problem. It's just that healers are the whiniest bunch.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

This is always going to be a problem, no matter what, due to the scripted nature of encounters in the game. Content is not designed and can not be designed to be interesting forever so long as encounters are scripted.

Try a DPS in Titan. If you're playing the job well and are generally consistent, you'll notice, say - after 10 clears, that you're doing the exact same thing. If you're very consistent, you're repeating the fight down to the GCD.
Go to one of those players with 50+ clears trying to get their 100 percentile parse - "What GCD are you using during the 2nd tumult after the first uplift?". They'll tell you.
This is different to healers telling you what they use to heal those tumults ... because reasons?

Every job has this problem. It's just that healers are the whiniest bunch.

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Healers are whiny because they want more to do other than spam the one button. Yes, eventually a DPS will just press the same GCDs over and over again, your point? It's called a rotation for a reason. However, how much more likely are you to mess that up while doing mechanics, or just in general, over to mess up "spam broil and press bio once every 30 seconds". Healers run out of things to do and improve on much more quickly than any other role. Give DPS the same rotation as healers and see if they'd be okay with it, I mean they're eventually go to pressing the same GCDs in a fight anyways, so why not let it happen sooner?

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

This is always going to be a problem, no matter what, due to the scripted nature of encounters in the game. Content is not designed and can not be designed to be interesting forever so long as encounters are scripted.

Try a DPS in Titan. If you're playing the job well and are generally consistent, you'll notice, say - after 10 clears, that you're doing the exact same thing. If you're very consistent, you're repeating the fight down to the GCD.
Go to one of those players with 50+ clears trying to get their 100 percentile parse - "What GCD are you using during the 2nd tumult after the first uplift?". They'll tell you.
This is different to healers telling you what they use to heal those tumults ... because reasons?

Every job has this problem. It's just that healers are the whiniest bunch.

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It's like you've not really paid any attention as to why they are.

I DPS, heal and tank. I've since been a DPS main in ShB. It most definitely is a different experience. Whilst yes, I get where you are coming from and the issue you're referring to but if you want to draw comparison. Healing expert roulette got boring very quick, pretty much in my first run.

DPSing, despite having ran expert several times now can still be engaging, even if it's much less so than it was when it was new because I know the dungeons and know my rotations, but either way, it still feels a lot better versus healing.

In ARR and HW I didn't find healing Expert roulettes boring, and after running them several times, then I got the issue you're describing

There are very specfic reasons why this is the case and we've covered them a lot on these discussions.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

This is always going to be a problem, no matter what, due to the scripted nature of encounters in the game. Content is not designed and can not be designed to be interesting forever so long as encounters are scripted.

Try a DPS in Titan. If you're playing the job well and are generally consistent, you'll notice, say - after 10 clears, that you're doing the exact same thing. If you're very consistent, you're repeating the fight down to the GCD.
Go to one of those players with 50+ clears trying to get their 100 percentile parse - "What GCD are you using during the 2nd tumult after the first uplift?". They'll tell you.
This is different to healers telling you what they use to heal those tumults ... because reasons?

Every job has this problem. It's just that healers are the whiniest bunch.

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There is a significant difference between a DPS rotation and spamming a single button 70% of the time. You're also vastly overestimating how much people actually memorize. Even players at that skill level aren't going to know exactly when Vorpal Thrust or Maim is used.

DPS would whine just a loudly, if not even more so if their jobs were reduced to one button. Hell, look at any thread where someone brings up combo consolidation and you have tons of people screaming "NO!" because they don't like the idea of mostly pressing a single key. At least they'd still have more buttons than the healers currently do. Better yet, you can gaze over at the tank thread with 50+ pages regarding how their damage was nerfed. Many aren't happy about it. The only reason healers are "the whiniest" is because no other role has been gutted as much.

While the scripted nature of encounters will inevitably cause some repetition, that feeling can be delayed much better if the jobs themselves are still engaging. When almost all the content is so brain dead easy to heal on top of healers having a single button, it only highlights that repetition instead of trying to mask it.

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Originally Posted by althenawhm

YoshiP sure responded quick about the Ishgard issue, but still no real communication about us healers.

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Oh he’s an expert at sticking his fingers in his ears and looking the other way on a LOT of voiced issues or requests he’s made false promises to implement. Check Egi Glamours, changing eye colour in the aesthetician, etc. Funny how they’ve just fallen off the map as if he’s magically forgot about them huh? I really am starting to dislike him as it seems he and the dev team only respond to very particular things and will gladly ignore many other pressing concerns if they feel they can get away with it, such as Healers. This has been a VOCAL issue for YEARS now, and what have they done to really rectify it?

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Healers are whiny because they want more to do other than spam the one button. Yes, eventually a DPS will just press the same GCDs over and over again, your point? It's called a rotation for a reason. However, how much more likely are you to mess that up while doing mechanics, or just in general, over to mess up "spam broil and press bio once every 30 seconds". Healers run out of things to do and improve on much more quickly than any other role. Give DPS the same rotation as healers and see if they'd be okay with it, I mean they're eventually go to pressing the same GCDs in a fight anyways, so why not let it happen sooner?

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You are equally as likely as you are to mess up anything while doing mechanics.
Apparently "spam broil and press bio once every 30 seconds" is everything you do. Can you not mess up healing?
Isn't interrupting a Broil or a Succor an identical mess-up to interrupting a Fire IV when dealing with a mechanic?

You say "Give DPS the same rotation as healers and see if they'd be okay with it".
Once again, apparently "spam broil and press bio once every 30 seconds" is everything you do. Healing is not part of playing healer anymore?

To say that's 'all' we do is missing the point. It makes up a huge part of what we do. If that gap was filled with healing, then great.

But let's say hypothetically we still had TP and 30% of what DPS would do was TP management (or MP for casters) and the rest of what they did was spam 1 or 2 buttons, no matter how varied the skills are for managing their TP were, they'd still complain how boring DPS has gotten.