The Slice is Right

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Typhon is 100% random from the start. That the whole point. Slice is pure skill, except for a weirdly out of place bit of pure random right in the middle.

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so they combined both for a better experience imo. i don't see a problem with this.

Is the basket portion truly random I wonder? So far, I've been standing on the last visible location of the basket with the coins during the sliding segment, and I've yet to end up on the tile with Daigoro even once out of the ~15 times I've tried so far. I do sometimes end up on the tile with nothing, but no Daigoro. Could be an insanely lucky streak, but even at a 66% chance to win it seems like I should've failed at least once by now.

I'm aware at the very end of the animation the 3 baskets combine in the middle and spin even faster than humanly possible to track, and it seems like it makes trying to guess based on the sliding movement prior to that pointless. But I have a hunch that the last portion of the animation is 'cosmetic', and the movements leading up that which are fast but still trackable are true representations.

Either way I'm rather enjoying it, putting what I said aside, all the randomness from the bamboo parts can be overcome with quick enough reactions. I'd say it's actually about as difficult as ultimate predation in uwu, which is pretty fun since you wouldn't expect mechanics like this from a gate.

I'd at the very least like the slice marks to be more noticeable. I enjoy this mini game and welcome more like it as a main stage event but gosh dang it when there's 4 bamboo sticks up... I simply cannot see all 4 of them or identify each one's pattern because of how they're blocking one another.The slight movement they do after being cut just isn't quite enough to me, I've only succeeded at the event once in the millions of times I've tried. The bright side is, I always seem to locate where the gold is hidden because I'm good at tracking the cup's movements.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Is the basket portion truly random I wonder?

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I don't think 15 times sounds like enough to think it's not just luck, especially if you're not consistently getting the coins.

I think you'd have to be tracking the placements of all three cups, and seeing if all three are revealed where you thought they d be, to confirm if there's a possibility of it being predictable. Even if it's truly random, there's a 1-in-6 chance of it matching by coincidence.

Yeah I intend to keep an eye on it a bit longer, definitely can't rule out it just being luck after only 15 attempts. I have some conjectures about the results I've observed from the basket shuffling segment though,

• Following the basket with the coins will lead you to the tile with the coins every time. The instances where I got nothing instead, I made a mistake tracking the basket (and avoided Daigoro by pure luck).

• Same as above. The shuffling is real, but I didn't make any mistakes, and the shuffle is coded in a way that the basket with the coins can turn into coins or nothing, but never Daigoro. So it doesn't guarantee you the coins, but your reward for tracking the basket is knowing you won't get Daigoro.

• It's just plain 33/33/33% rng that can't be predicted and I've just been getting lucky this whole time

The 2nd one seems kind of arbitrary to me, but who knows how the thing is coded behind the scenes.

I rather just not have Daigoro be part of the cup portion. On a psychological level, when the presence of reward exists where barring opportunity nothing is invested, the absence of reward is enough of a punishment for choosing incorrectly. Having one cup with the chance of doubling your earnings, and two cups that do not, is sufficient and more in spirit with what the Gold Saucer is, or at least should be.

People are more willing to accept the random nature of Any Way the Wind Blows given its volatility from the onset. Of course that has some ways of drastically altering your success rate, though I blame that more on implementation specification more than design intent, and won't be surprised to see that revised next.

I think I'm at 20+ tries now, and I've still yet to get knocked out by Daigoro even once, it's really strange.

I'm starting to think I'm overthinking the cup shuffling part, and that the portion of the shuffle animation that you can track actually plays out the exact same way each time with no deviation. But that means I've been picking the same tile every time too - the initial tile that the gold appears on (which also happens to be the where the gold basket is last seen during the shuffle, before it gets combined in the middle).

Has anyone ever chosen that tile and gotten Daigoro afterwards? Maybe I've just been insanely lucky.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I think I'm at 20+ tries now, and I've still yet to get knocked out by Daigoro even once, it's really strange.

I'm starting to think I'm overthinking the cup shuffling part, and that the portion of the shuffle animation that you can track actually plays out the exact same way each time with no deviation. But that means I've been picking the same tile every time too - the initial tile that the gold appears on (which also happens to be the where the gold basket is last seen during the shuffle, before it gets combined in the middle).

Has anyone ever chosen that tile and gotten Daigoro afterwards? Maybe I've just been insanely lucky.

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The first 6 or 7 times I decided to track, Daigoro would always end up where the gold pile had originally been (which would make sense, this is Daigoro we're talking about). Then it started becoming random where he would be (including where he started). I'm sure it had been random all along with him ending up in other spots the times I wasn't present to watch.

Unless you're also picking the tile where the gold ends up every time, chalk it up to luck.

Yeah it finally happened to me today, so I guess it's just plain random and I've been insanely lucky. Seriously, I've already played it 20+ times, probably almost 30 now, and it took till now to finally happen.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

so they combined both for a better experience imo. i don't see a problem with this.

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Yeah because RNG always makes a skill-based challenge fun. Nothing better than being good at something but getting screwed over by a coin flip.

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Originally Posted by FirstnameLastname

Yeah because RNG always makes a skill-based challenge fun. Nothing better than being good at something but getting screwed over by a coin flip.

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if you fail too bad so sad? just try again the next time. it's not like it's going anywhere?

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

if you fail too bad so sad? just try again the next time. it's not like it's going anywhere?

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Yeah, nah that tinfoil hat in your profile picture really suits you if you don't even get a point as simple as mine. Apologies, won't happen again.

fun is subjective. for some randomness is not fun because it denies them a guaranteed win. thems the breaks.

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Originally Posted by FirstnameLastname

Yeah because RNG always makes a skill-based challenge fun. Nothing better than being good at something but getting screwed over by a coin flip.

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Trying to think of skill based challenges in video games that completely lack any RNG element.

I'm failing. Perhaps you can list a few.

People get rapidly bored with any content that's too predictable. Random elements in moderation help keep content fresh longer. It's only when that random factor leads to repeated failure with little to no success that the fun fades away.

It's also a rather silly argument to make about something in what's basically an indoor carnival filled with games of chance. At least here the games usually rigged in your favor instead of against it.

The thing is pre-randomness and post-randomness are very different things. There is pre-luck (say, a game randomly generates a dungeon layout), or post-luck (a game where you can attack, but miss). Generally, going from our case studies and observation in the industry, generally players are more frustrated with the latter unless the post-action randomness creates pre-action randomness the player can respond to, say, getting another turn after an attack has missed to try again. Generally output randomness is what frustrates players, though it's not that simple for a lot of design/psychological reasons I won't get into. A lot of people way smarter than me in either industry has written about it so you can always look it up; GMT recently did a video on it that tries distills it in a way non-developers can understand.

I think The Slice Is Right is built on something leaning towards pre-luck randomness. It is good the bamboo does not have a preset pattern for the way they are cut, because it keeps people alert, engaged, and observing. While there is a component of reflexes and thus you can be put into a more difficult position based on where you stand, we can reasonably accept that time it takes bamboo to rise and be cut is a reasonable amount of time to find somewhere to stand for when it falls. When people go into it, this is the kind of luck they are more intent on handling. Meanwhile, for the time being I will assume the Daigoro failstate is random or at least indecipherable relative to what is acceptable, and a different kind of randomness from the bamboo.

I think it makes more sense for something like Any Way The Wind Blows, where barring a fault in implementation that makes some areas way safer to stand in, it is fundamentally post-randomness. I would like if the kind of randomness was kept discrete between activities, rather than having a moment in an activity that has a very different kind of randomness, so different GATEs can play up to different kinds of skill sets or user abilities. The Slice Is Right on a fundamental feels like a reflex-based challenge augmented by your ability to observe changes in geometry, and I think it should hone that rather than distort it. The Daigoro cup segment is kind of this sudden turn-based chance minigame which stands out as a discrete activity that differs from the core fundamental reflex-based aspect of the GATE. It would make more sense to have something where, for example, there was one cup with MGP, and two cups hiding a bomb, and you had full control over yourself, and after the cups are lifted you still have time to respond and test the skills the game hinged on up until that point

Do not take my analysis as a sign of severity. Gold Saucer is a goofy consequence-free place, though as with anything, it can be improved and definitely think it would be improved if the random failstate was taken out of this GATE.

I'd probably like this more if it was actually based on skill and not inevitably getting stuck in a position where there's no safe place to stand. Then there's that dog basket crap in the second round. I'm sure I'm gonna get attack for saying this doesn't feel skill based, but that's how I see it. At least you know what the deal is with Typhon going in. It's 100% RNG, not RNG poorly disguised as a test of skill.

omg it's a game. get over yourselves. if you don't win try again. smh

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

omg it's a game. get over yourselves. if you don't win try again. smh

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Do you need a hug?

I think he needs a time out. XD

Putting the shuffle phase aside, there's no combination of slices that results in a pattern that's impossible to dodge (maybe if literally all 4 bamboos were the circle aoe, but I don't think that's possible). They can all be avoided with good enough reflexes.

Which is actually pretty neat, because it's just a gold saucer game, but some patterns are close to ultimate level tuning. Ultimate predation in uwu is similar but easier due to having less randomness, and intermission 2 in a8s is another similar mechanic that's probably about on par in terms of difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Putting the shuffle phase aside, there's no combination of slices that results in a pattern that's impossible to dodge (maybe if literally all 4 bamboos were the circle aoe, but I don't think that's possible). They can all be avoided with good enough reflexes.

Which is actually pretty neat, because it's just a gold saucer game, but some patterns are close to ultimate level tuning. Ultimate predation in uwu is similar but easier due to having less randomness, and intermission 2 in a8s is another similar mechanic that's probably about on par in terms of difficulty.

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This is some pretty hardcore denial here. I know from experience that if you're on the wrong side of the place and they all come down at once toward you that you are not getting out of the way in time and there's no safe place to stand. That is 100% luck based BS.

Like I said before. You know damn well Typhoon is all about luck, but at least it's not pretending to be skill.

I don't think I've ever had that situation yet.

Let's say for these examples you always have four bamboo being cut. If all of them are theoretically circles, you can avoid two adjacent circles by being in the middle of two by being on the far edge. If you got two circles, and one or both bamboo falling toward you, the vector over distance with the potential floor real estate available should mean you still have a place to stand since there is a bit of wiggle room. Any time you have one or no circles, you have the maximum amount of floor space and the greatest amount of time due to the vector of an angle relative to your position.

But like, this is all just really technical stuff for a goofy minigame, ha ha. I can't say I have found myself getting bonked in a situation I could not have avoided even by bad luck, as I always feel I had a choice somewhere and didn't think fast enough. I'll play more to formulate an opinion.

I think perhaps the game is designed not so every individual can win, but rather a portion of the crowd. In any one game, one third will be knocked off here, but (assuming people are spread across all segments) the rest are safe.

Whether it'a enjoyable that it works that way is a separate debate, of course.

does a mini-game have to be 100% fail proof for it to be enjoyable? is an element of randomness that off-putting that it's going to adversely affect your mood?

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

This is some pretty hardcore denial here.

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The only thing hardcore here is how angry you are despite being wrong, haha.

Think about it logically, in the phases with 1, 2, and 3 bamboos, even all of them being circle aoes doesn't completely cover the whole arena so it's impossible for any pattern to be.. impossible. I've never seen all 4 bamboos turn into circles either, and as long as one of them is a line, there is somewhere in the arena that is safe - as long as you see it and get there in time.

In fact, if something random can be hard enough to make you think it's cheating and 'impossible', that's kind of a good thing isn't it? You couldn't ask for higher praise.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

does a mini-game have to be 100% fail proof for it to be enjoyable? is an element of randomness that off-putting that it's going to adversely affect your mood?

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Not "affect my mood" but I guess there's a different sort of disappointment in failing because you misjudged where to stand versus failing because of a completely random event you had no control over.

As was said earlier, I think it's frustrating to get that "pure luck" element in the middle of a "lucky skill" challenge. Not in a deep or lasting way, but it's a different feeling to losing because you know you messed up.

I'm not a fan. It's far too reliant on RNG - which is exactly the same reason I dislike the Typhon GATE. Losing through no fault of my own isn't something I find to be particularly enjoyable.

With that in mind, Leap of Faith and Air Force One are my favourite of the available GATE's. They're not based around RNG and if I mess up the blame is squarely on my shoulders.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm not a fan. It's far too reliant on RNG - which is exactly the same reason I dislike the Typhon GATE. Losing through no fault of my own isn't something I find to be particularly enjoyable.

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I think it's even worse than the luck for Typhon actually - there you just park yourself in position and come back a few minutes later to see if you got lucky or not. Here you're more invested in the process of getting to that random chance that might undo your skill-based progress to that point.

Maybe if they switched the lucky stage and the coin-collecting gamble?

On the other hand, people get to play/practise longer when it's this way around.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Whether it'a enjoyable that it works that way is a separate debate, of course.

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I tried it once, got knocked off immediately and decided to never try again.

The pillars in Rabanastre were better.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

The only thing hardcore here is how angry you are despite being wrong, haha.

Think about it logically, in the phases with 1, 2, and 3 bamboos, even all of them being circle aoes doesn't completely cover the whole arena so it's impossible for any pattern to be.. impossible. I've never seen all 4 bamboos turn into circles either, and as long as one of them is a line, there is somewhere in the arena that is safe - as long as you see it and get there in time.

In fact, if something random can be hard enough to make you think it's cheating and 'impossible', that's kind of a good thing isn't it? You couldn't ask for higher praise.

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So if you didn't see it, it didn't happen. Okay, that's not troll logic.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

So if you didn't see it, it didn't happen. Okay, that's not troll logic.

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I've never seen 1 + 1 add up to 3 either, but hey you seem like the hopeful type, so good luck with that I guess.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I've never seen 1 + 1 add up to 3 either, but hey you seem like the hopeful type, so good luck with that I guess.

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JR's not exactly being diplomatic here, but I can confirm that they're right. Once you reach 4 pillars, the safe zones become very small and are often only on one side of the arena. If you happen to choose the wrong side to stand on BEFORE the pillars rise and the telegraphs go out, it is possible to have too little time to find and reach the safe zone, at which point you're just done, there's nothing you can do about it, and nothing you really could've done to change the situation other than...be psychic, I guess. Happened to me a boatload of times.

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Once you reach 4 pillars, the safe zones become very small and are often only on one side of the arena. If you happen to choose the wrong side to stand on BEFORE the pillars rise and the telegraphs go out, it is possible to have too little time to find and reach the safe zone, at which point you're just done

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You're right about that. When 4 pillars are active, two adjacent pillars being circle aoes will completely cover the side of the arena they're on, all the way to the edge leaving no safe room (this doesn't happen with 3 pillars, because they're spaced further apart).

However, this still isn't an impossible situation. The question then becomes, why do you feel the need to 'choose a side' so early in the first place? Now yeah, I can see why it would make sense in general - it gives a better field of view, the pillars kinda make you want to be far from them, and it works fine for the early phases. However, if you wanted to ensure this never happened when 4 pillars are active, there is another solution that is 100% guaranteed to work.

Instead of picking a side so early, stand in the middle of the map as the pillars spawn. If you see from the cut animation that your 'side' is going to be completely covered by two circle aoes, instead of running back there, just go to any of the other 3 sides instead. Since you're starting from the middle now, all sides are equally close and you will definitely get to the safe one in time - as long as you can identify it quickly enough.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

You're right about that. When 4 pillars are active, two adjacent pillars being circle aoes will completely cover the side of the arena they're on, all the way to the edge leaving no safe room (this doesn't happen with 3 pillars, because they're spaced further apart).

However, this still isn't an impossible situation. The question then becomes, why do you feel the need to 'choose a side' so early in the first place? Now yeah, I can see why it would make sense in general - it gives a better field of view, the pillars kinda make you want to be far from them, and it works fine for the early phases. However, if you wanted to ensure this never happened when 4 pillars are active, there is another solution that is 100% guaranteed to work.

Instead of picking a side so early, stand in the middle of the map as the pillars spawn. If you see from the cut animation that your 'side' is going to be completely covered by two circle aoes, instead of running back there, just go to any of the other 3 sides instead. Since you're starting from the middle now, all sides are equally close and you will definitely get to the safe one in time - as long as you can identify it quickly enough.

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I don't know why I never thought of this before.
It makes so much sense, too.

I'm looking forward to my next slice now.

I actually believe that the coin in a cup shuffle is not by chance. I have been tracking them and every time I see where the coin cup stops before they spin, I go there and win the coins. The only time I fail is if I fail to track it, which happens from time to time, but when I know I’ve tracked it, I win the coins. I’ve only beaten the whole thing twice. Once on my main and once on an alt. It’s still fun though, despite it’s difficulty winning the whole thing, I like it.