Speed Run + Timer

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

(probably 2 WHM as the 8th)

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Way to stack whitemages...

Had one time recently when we finished Cutter's Cry with 39 minutes left. I couldn't believe it. I think all the stars had aligned and everyone in the group was on their game 150%.

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Originally Posted by morpheus

So basically yeah dumb down the game. Gamers these days are just pathetic, all they want is to get shit handed to them.

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Yea I know dude, right ?

People don't want to come home from a hard day at work and have to go back to work in a virtual setting.

.... oh ok maybe some of you do.

Gamers these days .. Honestly !!

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Originally Posted by Buddhsie

The best thing about the new dungeons is that the most useful pieces are only available during speed runs. This is how it should be, the best pieces are the most difficult to get. How can you argue against this?

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Count the number of people completing speed runs over and over and over and over and over.... its not hard, its just boring and repetitive. Ramp up dungeon difficulty, make the fifth chest a reward for clearing all mobs, and increase the drop rate by a little. The best armor isn't rewarded for -difficulty- as it stands now.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Yea I know dude, right ?

People don't want to come home from a hard day at work and have to go back to work in a virtual setting.

.... oh ok maybe some of you do.

Gamers these days .. Honestly !!

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What does working have to do with anything? We have people in our ls that work full time jobs yet can still do speed runs. It's nothing to do with time and a lot more to do with skill and effort put forth.

speed runs are for the skilled. if you can't do it then you're not skilled in many ways. if you're going to complain about it then you obviously don't deserve the gear it rewards players with nor have the drive to overcome what obstacles are in your way.

the gear is meant to be prestigious and with this system in place, it IS prestigious.

we've managed to complete the new dungeons with over 41 minutes on the clock using 6 of the 7 jobs throughout the run meaning any combination of jobs is usable!

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Originally Posted by morpheus

What does working have to do with anything? We have people in our ls that work full time jobs yet can still do speed runs. It's nothing to do with time and a lot more to do with skill and effort put forth.

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Ok captain !

Eji your my Hero !!<3

Time Attacks are always a great way to challenge the community and with SR5C it will always set apart the top tier linkshells from the lower tier.

There needs to be more diversity in challenges though for endgame content. If all of our instanced dungeons are nothing but Time Attacks for the best gear, SE has failed and needs to go back to the drawing board.

Hopefully though, 2.0 will usher in lots more in terms of diversity.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Way to stack whitemages...

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Maybe we'll take a WHM and a conjurer

Here's a pic of our most recent speed run attempts. The only class we didn't have was Paladin, but we cleared with a few minutes to spare, and was mainly melee dps.

http://www.loremipsumls.net/pics/aurumspeed.jpg

As far as a chest being based off of speed, yeah, i'm also not a fan. But it doesn't require people being on specific classes. We had three wars here because that was what those people preferred playing the most.

Yup just done. All jobs + 2 WHM, speed run 5 chest AV. Stop whining. (we messed up few times at running too), also first try.

Yes this includes PLD tanking.

Mog will upload video soon.

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...2c75000880.jpg

Even with a bunch of mistakes. Still got it. 1st try.

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Originally Posted by Alderton

Here's a pic of our most recent speed run attempts. The only class we didn't have was Paladin, but we cleared with a few minutes to spare, and was mainly melee dps.

http://www.loremipsumls.net/pics/aurumspeed.jpg

As far as a chest being based off of speed, yeah, i'm also not a fan. But it doesn't require people being on specific classes. We had three wars here because that was what those people preferred playing the most.

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We had 2-3 minutes to spare at the end for every run by the way. This was our 3rd attempt on these speed runs when we succeeded, and we've succeeded every time since then.

I solo heal'd the speed runs. Point being you really don't need X class to do this stuff. You just have to have a group of people who are proficient at whatever class they play.

We cleared it with 1 of every class. PLD included. Video will be up shortly.

We narrowly did it, but hey, still counts!

OP was saying that speed runs are stupid, and while you CAN do them with diversity it favors job stacking. You can do them all NP with whatever jobs,true, but it doesn't make it the most effective method. I agree with OP, btw. Speed runs for best loot is not a challenge, speed runs ARE.NOT.HARD. Its a stupid, random hoop to jump through to create a wonderful time-sink to bide time til content. I'm glad you can do it with all the jobs, but having a few minutes left over compared to job stacking and having 10-12+ minutes left over... kinda supports the OP's idea in the OP. lol

Thats odd, I recall him saying this

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But all we want is to play the jobs we like the most.

Speed Run is a part of a game actually, once you reach that part and you succefull the dungeon within the time limit, there's no excuse to not doing it again, and again, and again, and you'll no longer be able to use your paladin or lancer (unless you're not doing a speed run, but why ?).

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Which to me means he is being stereotyped into a certain role to finish the dungeon as a speed run.



Don't go changing the argument now that I've gone and proven you wrong.

(and not just me btw, seems Sol did it too!)

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

OP was saying that speed runs are stupid, and while you CAN do them with diversity it favors job stacking. You can do them all NP with whatever jobs,true, but it doesn't make it the most effective method. I agree with OP, btw. Speed runs for best loot is not a challenge, speed runs ARE.NOT.HARD. Its a stupid, random hoop to jump through to create a wonderful time-sink to bide time til content. I'm glad you can do it with all the jobs, but having a few minutes left over compared to job stacking and having 10-12+ minutes left over... kinda supports the OP's idea in the OP. lol

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you have never done speedrun have you? even with job stacking, time left on clock is usually 3mins. 5-6mins with a great team and close to zero mistakes.

Killing cluster of mobs will only takes few seconds more without BLM stackings because apparently nobody knows other jobs has AoE.

I am not saying speedrun is great either, it shouldnt be the method to get best gears in every raid. But, speedrun does test your teamwork and your skills.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

OP was saying that speed runs are stupid, and while you CAN do them with diversity it favors job stacking. You can do them all NP with whatever jobs,true, but it doesn't make it the most effective method. I agree with OP, btw. Speed runs for best loot is not a challenge, speed runs ARE.NOT.HARD. Its a stupid, random hoop to jump through to create a wonderful time-sink to bide time til content. I'm glad you can do it with all the jobs, but having a few minutes left over compared to job stacking and having 10-12+ minutes left over... kinda supports the OP's idea in the OP. lol

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[size=100]EVERYTHING WILL ALWAYS FAVOR JOB STACKING. FOREVER.[/size]

Seriously people need to get this through their head. EVERYTHING will have an "ideal job" for it. As long as other jobs can do just fine and it's not a requirement to be on a specific job to do an event, then events are fine. There will always be a specific mob who's weak to a specific type of damage so a specific job will be specifically suited to do a little more damage than the other jobs. Just because everyone has all 50s already doesn't mean you have to change. Just get better at your main job and quit complaining about how a class with elemental attacks deals more damage against something that's weak to an element or how ranged classes have range.

True dat son.

I just accepted this challenge so people would stfu about "WAAAHH I CANT COME ON MNK CUZ BLM IS HOW THE GUIDE SAZ U HAZ TO DO IT"

Anyone notice that BG and DoW make the tutorials on how to do things, then bitch at us for using our own invented methods as "the norm"? lol

I'm going to start uploading my tutorials with the hardest possible combination of classes and leave everyone to figure out optimal setups on their own so they will stfu already.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

True dat son.

I just accepted this challenge so people would stfu about "WAAAHH I CANT COME ON MNK CUZ BLM IS HOW THE GUIDE SAZ U HAZ TO DO IT"

Anyone notice that BG and DoW make the tutorials on how to do things, then bitch at us for using our own invented methods as "the norm"? lol

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It is entirely doable, AND it is more fun to do on the job you enjoy the most (go figure). Try it out, guys!

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Originally Posted by Alderton

It is entirely doable, AND it is more fun to do on the job you enjoy the most (go figure). Try it out, guys!

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This guy gets it.

+1

Only posting the last boss but an entire run with one of every class and a ton of fuckups and we still got the speed run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqk-UGxL0rg

If you don't believe me then you have trust issues and are a scrub. Good day

Lol, ya i'm changin the arguement? No. Read my posts, This has turned into people looking down their noses, I never said speed runs are hard, i said they are stupid easy and completable with any jobs, but THEY FAVOR JOB STACKING.

As this thread has apparently been overrun by the epeening, look down your nose at people cuz you think speed runs take skill crowd, I think i'm done posting in it. Doc, I like your guides, I've never copied them but they're a great general idea for a place to start. In forums you're comin off as a pompous ass, in the videos you seemed so kind.

I still think speed runs are just an awful game mechanic built to be time sinks, that hasn't changed. Grats on your speedruns, the same thing everyone else is accomplishing. Its nothing to be so stuck-up about. Byebyes!

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

here a post i made on a thread,





And i want to make a thread about it, because i think it is important for the futur of the game.

As i was speaking about it with some friends they were all agree, speed run is killing the jobs system.

You'd better go with an army of blm a brd, a whm and a war tank, because it's part of optimisation.

But all we want is to play the jobs we like the most.

Speed Run is a part of a game actually, once you reach that part and you succefull the dungeon within the time limit, there's no excuse to not doing it again, and again, and again, and you'll no longer be able to use your paladin or lancer (unless you're not doing a speed run, but why ?).


Having no timer, no speed run chest.
Change each chest at the end of the dungeon by a tough boss that drop the same as the chest, taking our time to travel the dungeon, make them biggers.

I did like the how to deal with coincutter as monk, and found it funny, but if we have to do a speed run, i can no longer do it as mnk, brd or blm is the way to go there until i can finally switch to mnk for the mistress but... everyone is mnk now, i feel like i was copy/paste and lost some unique(ness) to the job i love the most.

let us taking our time finishing the dungeon, optimisation should only be strategy and gears, not jobs.

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So, who's really think Speed Run should no longer be in the game ?

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Those timers are ridiculous. We ran desmael, gOt the chests, got to batraal with 12min left.
Really? I was like wtf. In the end, we couldn't make it through with the time left and wiped at batraal. Not fun. Extend or take these stupid timers out. Doesn't make sense. It was my first time there and I was like running all over the place, not enjoying the dungeon because of the stupid timer. Oh, of course no cutscenes watched because the party was half way the dungeon by the time the cutscenes end.

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Those timers are ridiculous. We ran desmael, gOt the chests, got to batraal with 12min left.
Really? I was like wtf. In the end, we couldn't make it through with the time left and wiped at batraal. Not fun. Extend or take these stupid timers out. Doesn't make sense. It was my first time there and I was like running all over the place, not enjoying the dungeon because of the stupid timer. Oh, of course no cutscenes watched because the party was half way the dungeon by the time the cutscenes end.

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So, let me recap:

1st time in the dungeon EVER: check
Watching cutscenes: check
tried for speed run anyway: check
Expected to win and get a speed run: Uhh what?

No wonder everyone is having troubles. are you all attempting the speed run without learning the dungeon first? And for the love of god you shouldn't expect to even WIN the dungeon on your first try. Get 2, then 3, then maybe 4 chests, and then when you have it down pact THEN get your speed run.

/facepalm.

I'm sick of speed runs but they're the only thing that separates competent linkshells from pickup groups right now. Unless we get a broader range of difficulties (different content please, not "hard mode") to give the hardcore LSes something to do, then removing speed runs would make the content painfully dull.

Compromise for people who don't like speed runs and people who do like them: 2 different "5th chest" with different loot tables. You can either take in the scenery and find every minor detail to get, but will force you to waste time and fail time attack by the design of the dungeon (such as a bonus boss that takes a good 10 minutes to wear down or require several fights in the dungeon and takes you far away from the location of the regular boss), or you can rush to final boss for the time attack chest. Trying to go for both will only punish you, such as having a buff up on both bosses making them impossible to kill, or just simple output of damage taken/healing done/damage dealt will cause you to fail time attack objective due to the speed you can whittle down both bosses at the same time.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

So, let me recap:

1st time in the dungeon EVER: check
Watching cutscenes: check
tried for speed run anyway: check
Expected to win and get a speed run: Uhh what?

No wonder everyone is having troubles. are you all attempting the speed run without learning the dungeon first? And for the love of god you shouldn't expect to even WIN the dungeon on your first try. Get 2, then 3, then maybe 4 chests, and then when you have it down pact THEN get your speed run.

/facepalm.

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Only two people were new to the dungeon. Not to the game. We all know how to play. At the boss, shit happens. My point being is that those timers make no sense. Period. Takes the fun out of it completely. It's not like no on can enter the dungeon if a group is already inside until they leave. Makes nO sense to have them.

Watching the cutscenes shouldn't penalize you, neither grabbing the chests. Why should you be forced tO choose between running tO the bosses or getting the chests? Makes no sense

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

Like that time when DH came out and people were complaining that it was a archer only fight and you said "no. no no, melee can clear it easy" and then on your live stream you wiped hard, then blamed it on not having the "A team" available to do it.

You got 24 hours DocMog prove this community wrong! I'm rooting for you! ((take the "A team" this time!)

Speed should be an achievment only and maybe a special title to have and brag about. Gear rewards should be based on the ability to clear the dungeon regardless of time taken to do so.

I'll be very disapointed if they keep gear rewards for speed clears in ver 2.0 It's not a gamebreaker for me, but just a huge let down.

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Sir we completed the challenge, here is the final boss fight for now: (another members perspective)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqk-U...c3FUAAAAAAABAA

My full video of the run is very large (FRAPS is insane...) so it will be up in the AM for everyone to view. It will be private and linked only here, because I don't see the need for everyone to see our terribad speed run. I'll admit, it was a sketch-tastic run, we failed in a few places, but in the end got the speed run on our 1st attempt. With a little practice... who knows, it might be as good as a BLM run. Either way, we did it, it works, a full party of 1 of each class CAN indeed complete AV speed run.

Hope that satisfies the internet for another day.

I have work in the morning so I'm not going to wait up for it.

Goodnight ^^

Our LS has never demanded a specific job for anyone on anything. To be honest I'd say it's come to be one of our core values in XIV, "play what class you want and win having fun". We speedran darkhold with melee (our first ogre kill had 1 arc, 1 conj, 1 thm), used PGL on ifrit, melee Moogles and currently we're working on the 5th chests in the new dungeons with whatever classes people want. We obviously structure the group in the sense we have a tank and a couple whms, outside of that? Whatever you want.

Class stacking is not a dev problem, it's a playerbase problem, they're fucking lazy and want rewards ASAP, so they default to strat they know that works (or the one that doctor mog told them lol).

And then they moan about it. Nice one.

Make dungeons more about skill, tougher enemies, not run through or spam aoe.

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Originally Posted by Noir

Only two people were new to the dungeon. Not to the game. We all know how to play. At the boss, shit happens. My point being is that those timers make no sense. Period. Takes the fun out of it completely. It's not like no on can enter the dungeon if a group is already inside until they leave. Makes nO sense to have them.

Watching the cutscenes shouldn't penalize you, neither grabbing the chests. Why should you be forced tO choose between running tO the bosses or getting the chests? Makes no sense

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No, there is a limit on the number of parties than can be in the instance at one time.
actually this is probably the reason why dungeons are timed.

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Originally Posted by Zion_Cross

Make dungeons more about skill, tougher enemies, not run through or spam aoe.

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Speed run has nothing to do with difficulty. Any halfway decent ls will try to do these dungeons as fast as possible because of how many times you have to farm them to get darklight drops. Even if there was no speed run chest, it would makee no sense to do the dungeon slow with or without speed run achievement.

Please stop talking about tougher this or that. It has nothing do with speed runs. You can put a speed run achievement on to any timed event no matter how tough it is.

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Originally Posted by jwang

Compromise for people who don't like speed runs and people who do like them: 2 different "5th chest" with different loot tables. You can either take in the scenery and find every minor detail to get, but will force you to waste time and fail time attack by the design of the dungeon (such as a bonus boss that takes a good 10 minutes to wear down or require several fights in the dungeon and takes you far away from the location of the regular boss), or you can rush to final boss for the time attack chest. Trying to go for both will only punish you, such as having a buff up on both bosses making them impossible to kill, or just simple output of damage taken/healing done/damage dealt will cause you to fail time attack objective due to the speed you can whittle down both bosses at the same time.

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Doesn't solve the problem because people will:

a.) complain there's different loot in different chests
b.) complain there's different loot in speed run chests (still)

I'm sure the people who only care for the 5 chest achievement are in the minority and most only care about the loot.

Also, I'm not sure if I understand the 'take your time and enjoy the scenery' argument. It's only valid for the first couple of rounds, but after that it really becomes a moot point after you run through the raids over and over again. Of course, then the argument becomes that they shouldn't make the drop rates so horrid, but if SE decides to ramp up drop rates so people can get everything in just a few runs before the scenery gets old, then people will be left with nothing to do, which then becomes ANOTHER complaint, and so on and so forth.

It just never ends, does it?

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Sir we completed the challenge, here is the final boss fight for now: (another members perspective)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqk-U...c3FUAAAAAAABAA

My full video of the run is very large (FRAPS is insane...) so it will be up in the AM for everyone to view. It will be private and linked only here, because I don't see the need for everyone to see our terribad speed run. I'll admit, it was a sketch-tastic run, we failed in a few places, but in the end got the speed run on our 1st attempt. With a little practice... who knows, it might be as good as a BLM run. Either way, we did it, it works, a full party of 1 of each class CAN indeed complete AV speed run.

Hope that satisfies the internet for another day.

I have work in the morning so I'm not going to wait up for it.

Goodnight ^^

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What about Cutter's Cry? lol Not trolling, I just thought perhaps you would do that dungeon with the challenge as well.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I would agree remove speed runs and make it more about skill and team work.

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...but, Speed Runs DO require skill and team work.

Even with a class stacked party of tank, brd, whm, blm, if anyone of the players is not on top of their game then speed run isn't going to come easily. I'm not saying it's hard, but rather, that I think it is well done.

Mog, you got proven you can do it, gratz, but it wont make everyone going to change that now.

Everyone is tired, bored of thoses dungeon still, and it doesn't change the part that ppl doing it for the reward at then end, the chest, and the best and easy way to do it.

Also, YOU were the one that post that FFXIV: Aurum Vale Speed Run Tutorial..

You want to prove to everyone is it doable, i'm totally agree, is it possible, but still you did that tutorial video, where we seeing a win with blm then mnk on mistress. that mean, before doing the run for the fun with all 7 classes you did it with 4 classes, it's the safest way anyway, and this is you that post it, not me.

Next dungeon, try, on your first attempt to do it with all 7 classes, without even knowing it (i mean not farming like hell).

A lot of linkshell have tried to deal with all 7 classes first, you probably did too. And most of them found out they couldn't handle as well as blm & mnk, so they switch, like you probably did at first.

It's part of optimisation, and guess what, a timer and a speed run timer get you in a hurry, you'd better use what's work the most, based on what you know, what you have seen (video and tuto).

People dont want to hurry, they want to take their time.

Tell me know you prefer way better having 5 chest instead of 5 boss that drop the same...

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I still think speed runs are just an awful game mechanic built to be time sinks, that hasn't changed. Grats on your speedruns, the same thing everyone else is accomplishing. Its nothing to be so stuck-up about. Byebyes!

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Yo... In case you didn't notice, Speed Runs are the opposite of time sinks. Speed runs allow you to get more loot in half the time of a normal run. How the hell is that a time sink as compared to spending an hour wiping left and right for nothing?

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Originally Posted by ejiboo

speed runs are for the skilled. if you can't do it then you're not skilled in many ways. if you're going to complain about it then you obviously don't deserve the gear it rewards players with nor have the drive to overcome what obstacles are in your way.

the gear is meant to be prestigious and with this system in place, it IS prestigious.

we've managed to complete the new dungeons with over 41 minutes on the clock using 6 of the 7 jobs throughout the run meaning any combination of jobs is usable!

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Pretty much this.

To answer the OP I'm not necessarily against speed runs but I don't like the way they work right now. To me it just looks like a very cheap way to implement the principle of "time attack" into the instanced raids. I mean there's 3 50 dungeons and for all of them it's the same deal : run through 90% of the enemies and rush for the mini boss and then do the same for the final boss. I don't have any fun doing that, no matter what job I'm playing. Not the mention that it makes the dungeons repetitive right from the start.

I think that, as some have already suggested, it would be much better if we had to make choices between multiples objectives once we're inside the instance. Go there in x minutes to get a mini boss to pop which will cause another path to close for example and to stick with the time attack thingy. Also, and this is maybe my biggest concern : make every enemy worth fighting against. Randoms mobs don't have to be extremely hard to beat but at least give them some valuable drops or something like CC where you have to kill some mobs simultaneously for something to happen so we don't just rush through everything to get the speedrun done.