Extreme Market Board Undercutting is a Problem. Who ultimately benefits from this?

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Trust me, it does, and it's a little silly to think it doesn't when it happens in virtually every MMO on the market. They have bots that can run through the entire MSQ without use of hacks, so making one that simply undercuts people at fixed intervals would comparatively be a joke.

There's at least two players who are known to do so on Cactuar and it's not just me who's noticed.

It's gone past being simple suspicion at this point when one of them is almost constantly DoL botting and observably checks the retainer bell after every single unspoiled node it gathers from (Which is precisely when it does its one gil undercuts) on an endless loop 24/7 following the exact same path to the bell each time.

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Funny how you keep whining about that without anything to back it up. Move on.

CAPITALISM HO

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Originally Posted by Big_Bap

Funny how you keep whining about that without anything to back it up. Move on.

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And how do you propose I prove it, exactly?

It's not like people are going to come and watch these players doing what they do even if I could mention their names.

It also doesn't change the fact that these players are known DoL/H botters, so it's not much of a stretch to assume that when they're almost immediately undercutting anyone who tries to sell lower then them that there's more foul play involved.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

And how do you propose I prove it, exactly?

It's not like people are going to come and watch these players doing what they do even if I could mention their names.

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Show us exactly what you've described ;)

If you're so smart and have figured out their pattern, why don't you undercut their items to ridiculously low prices before they adjust theirs? Why haven't you made a fortune out of that instead of whining on here...

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

You know you're just losing money that way, right? Unless you only undercut by 1. Lowering a price drastically doesn't actually speed up sales. It's just like real life. When people want to buy something, they already have the money for it. If it isn't selling it's because there is no demand, not because it's too expensive.

If you do undercut drastically and get resellers buying your items instead, then you're creating a market bubble that won't last, and you just murder your own market for a long time and lose even more money.

All of the people with warped views on how markets work end up ruining it for everyone and themselves for the sake of being impatient and trying to fart out as many sales as they can instead of making real money.

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You're completely wrong on that. As others have stated, just because you have the money to purchase something doesn't mean you're willing to buy.

Want some real life examples? I never, ever buy video games at full price. I wait for them to go on sale. And even if a sale isn't good enough, I still won't bite. I'll wait until they reach what I consider them to be worth.

Or grocery shopping. A normal price for something might be 89 cents. I won't buy and will even do without it at that price. Even when it reaches 59 cents, I might buy a few, but not many. Once they reach my preferred price, 49 cents, that's when I buy a month's supply.

In-game, if something is too expensive, I'll either do without it, or I'll obtain it myself. For example, if I'm gearing up one of my jobs, and it would cost me 200k to purchase a set of gear, I'd rather just craft it myself. I can afford 200k easily. I have more than 1000x that much. But I'm not going to pay it.

Also, "too expensive" is a factor of demand. "Demand" is not only wanting something, but having the money and being willing to pay for it.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Snip!

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I envy you for being able to buy any groceries for 49 cents.

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Originally Posted by Big_Bap

Show us exactly what you've described ;)

If you're so smart and have figured out their pattern, why don't you undercut their items to ridiculously low prices before they adjust theirs? Why haven't you made a fortune out of that instead of whining on here...

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There's not exactly a "fortune" to be made when the 450 gear has tanked as low as 80K a piece and the bot is usually willing to drop to half that before it stops undercutting.

Buying them out accomplishes little because they have excess stock they'll just relist immediately and even if you did manage to deplete their stock you still have other competition to worry about. It really is not something you can exploit for any meaningful gain.

In any case, people can choose what they want to believe, but I find the notion of thinking undercut bots somehow don't exist in a game as heavily exploited as XIV a bit silly when they're still a problem even in heavily enforced MMOs like WoW.

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Originally Posted by Big_Bap

Funny how you keep whining about that without anything to back it up. Move on.

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Just because there's no solid in-game proof, doesn't mean they don't exist. Those that use them explicitly discuss them on Discord and a simple googling will tell you that they exist.

I'm curious though, as to why you sound so confident that they don't exist.

Nowadays, I mostly just gather my own stuff (so I always make a profit) and then use those to make mats that people can't be bothered to make themselves. I generally avoid large priced items, as they generally get undercut to hell before they actually sell.

Also another aspect of MB to look at, is that listed price isn't the same as selling price.

Seen plenty of items that when I looked them up on MB and only listed items were going for 1M+ gil, but you look at history and the item is averaging about 100k. If you're just looking at listed prices, next person to list at 100k would appear to be grossly undercutting when all they're doing is listing at what market value is for the item.

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Extreme Market Board Undercutting is a Problem. Who ultimately benefits from this?

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those damn lalafell...
oh wait, i mean the customer

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

I've seen items that were selling for 8,000-$15,000 Gil comfortably, plummet to 100 Gil or less because several people jump on the massive undercutting bandwagon. In the end...NO ONE makes any money, so what good comes from it?

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i know that feels, as a lvl 81 gatherer(gather stuff from cheaper server) and sell it at my own server, this thing will always happen. but there is a lot of reason for this.
I'm from tonberry, and afaik i never see a bot in this server, but here some of my not so important opinion :

1. World Visit
This could hurt your MB a little. whenever i travel to another world i will always see wanderer like me in front of MB, sniping cheap stuff and if the price different is huge we will buy in bulk to sell it at our own server. and since the price is differ, we can sell it much more cheaper than you.

2. Overpricing
Let's say some items is just overpriced, if i do the math for the mats (lol) and i can sell it cheaper than everyone else i will always sell it cheaper, because i want to recycle my inventory as fast as possible while still making some gill, and no i dont undercut by 1 gill. go big or go home

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

If supply exceeds demand, and you're selling high, the undercutters will sell first

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Agree with this, some items with high demand have a stable price. And almost never fall down. And even if you not sell at the cheaper price, it will sell eventually because the demand is high.

Profits and worth are all subjective, it makes no sense to assume someone doesn't know such and such's worth when they make huge undercuts.

Someone uses a bot, they go to sleep as the bot loads up on 100s of a mat that goes for 700gil ... any price they sell it for is profit to them cause they themselves didn't gather it, right? They spent zero time or effort into getting this so it's pure profit.

Same with retainers. Send one out to gather 20 of an item and for the price of 2 ventures you now have 20 of something you didn't have to put any direct effort into. Run a dng or something and come back to profit.
Send one out and they bring back something that goes for 400K on the MB ... even if you slash that price IN HALF you're making profit cause you didn't have to make it or do anything other then send your retainer out. They could have given you something that goes for 10gil or something that goes for 200k+, it's random so you either get lucky or not.

Think of people leveling crafting by grinding out stuff. They make a ton of an item just for the exp and you think they should sit on it, only undercut by 1gil or 1%? Nope, they don't have all the room in the world so they dump it cause that space is more important to them then sitting around stalking the MB trends or being polite.

It's about the amount of time and gil you invest into something, this game has a LOT of ways for someone to get something with no or lil effort.

Part of why I want them to allow buy orders is to make this a 2 way dialog over having people just put up with fictional values the power MB gamers come up with.

Who benefits? You, me, anyone who winds up buying something for less than the most exorbitant fee. Sucks to be in a buyers market... if you're the guy selling. Frankly I'm glad its like this because it means everything is dirt cheap, makes my life easier.

I feel like crafting being as easy as it is is probably the biggest reason for the prices tanking so quickly.

The prices on stuff in HW was higher overall and remained that way even towards the end of each patch cycle due to it generally being more difficult/time-consuming both to acquire the mats for crafts and to successfully HQ it.

Hopefully 5.1 changes things up somehow.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I feel like crafting being as easy as it is is probably the biggest reason for the prices tanking so quickly.

The prices on stuff in HW was higher overall and remained that way even towards the end of each patch cycle due to it generally being more difficult/time-consuming both to acquire the mats for crafts and to successfully HQ it.

Hopefully 5.1 changes things up somehow.

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Gonna be skeptical. Throughout Stormblood, we were told that more difficult endgame recipes would be coming...they never did. Or look at how SE tackles gathering bots, which gather 24/7 for months/years...

Most of the non max-level stuff isn’t in high demand so the turnaround and the prices won’t really make sense. Especially since low amounts of Gil are virtually meaningless to many established and rich players in the game (for whom 100k is but the slimmest pocket change) thus they don’t even really care whether it’s priced properly or not, just “here is something which would be a pity to throw away, so just take this off my hands before I destroy it to free up the retainer slot it’s hogging, which isn’t even worth being used to list this item”

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

Gonna be skeptical. Throughout Stormblood, we were told that more difficult endgame recipes would be coming...they never did. Or look at how SE tackles gathering bots, which gather 24/7 for months/years...

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This is the thing I find most hilarious when people put up those posts congratulating SE on "banning thousands of bots" without actually reading the official numbers. They ban thousands of gilspammers or the dummy accounts used to facilitate RMT. The actual bots almost never get banned. There has been a specific bot gathering on my server since some time in 2.2 that I remember very clearly constantly being at the new 2* 50 nodes, then again at the nodes in HW from the release of the expansion, then again in Stormblood, and still here in Shadowbringers. It gets a name change/race change maybe once per expansion but it's still the same bot because its lodestone id is always the same. And that's just the one that I ran into a lot for some reason, I've seen plenty of others on and off that seem to be running different schedules and have been around probably just as long.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

lol what?

The people who "willing to pay" is just a subset of the people who "want" set. That means there are plenty who want but not willing to pay - depending on the price. The easiest in game example is glamour. I'm not poor, although whether I'm rich or not depending on who you ask (over 100mil) but I had never pay for map glamour (like Ao Dai, Quintess ...etc...) when they come out. I have a very specific price that I'm willing to pay for these items, and that under 200k.

Would be curious which country you live in since you cite "irl", since it must be one that doesn't follow the economy norm. Either that, or you're a super rich millionaire that have the only factor deciding your purchase is your "want" irregardless of what you have to pay.

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Just because you don't want to spend over 200k on glamour doesn't mean there aren't people out there who would in equal quantity. I've sold high-priced crafted glamour for every single expansion for millions of gil per craft, multiple times per day. It has to be a very, very low demand item if someone is not willing to pay extra to get it. In which case, the price wouldn't be high in the first place. People aren't posting crafted glamour for ~5 mil without anyone buying it, you can check the sale history even. And for the record, 200k is an extremely low price for those kinds of things, no one would ever sell them that low when they're current because people buy them frequently enough at 10-20x that. Even a single material for the current map glamour costs more than that.

It's the same for something like a luxury car or bespoke tailored suit in real life. Those things cost exorbitant amounts of money but some of the most profitable companies in the world sell them. If the issue was ever really the price, then the seller goes out of business.

And when you drop the price of a high demand item, it creates a bubble, like I mentioned. Which is the thing everyone that has responded saying "lower prices sell faster" is forgetting. The price will rapidly crash and stock will deplete and demand will fall, then the price resets itself back to its original place. Sellers lose money or drop out of the market because their items suddenly become worthless. It ends up wasting time for everyone involved since then sellers start pulling items from the market to wait on the price to rise again. Keeping a steady, consistent price on an item is always the most sustainable way to sell, and undercutting by 1 is how you do it. It puts your items up first and also maintains the established price.

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

Lol what. I dont know in what ig and irl worlds you are living where there is no poor people, and where everybody is swimming in so much money that they can afford everything they want for normal or high prices, but it is not the same as mine XD

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Poor people aren't buying luxury items. High end crafted items are not "normal" items. You don't go buy a $3,000 suit if you deliver pizzas. The same as someone that barely plays not buying a 3-5 million gil glamour piece. Most people's most valuable possessions are things like housing plots, since those are useful for everyone, and those cost a massive range of prices. And that's why, even being such a massive investment, even "poor" people save up to get them, because they are useful and desirable to have no matter what. Usefulness is more important than price or value, and that is always relative to the buyer. Sometimes people get lucky and catch super cheap deals on things, just like in real life too, but that is always the exception and never the rule because that is simply not sustainable.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

There's not exactly a "fortune" to be made when the 450 gear has tanked as low as 80K a piece and the bot is usually willing to drop to half that before it stops undercutting.

Buying them out accomplishes little because they have excess stock they'll just relist immediately and even if you did manage to deplete their stock you still have other competition to worry about. It really is not something you can exploit for any meaningful gain.

In any case, people can choose what they want to believe, but I find the notion of thinking undercut bots somehow don't exist in a game as heavily exploited as XIV a bit silly when they're still a problem even in heavily enforced MMOs like WoW.

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Now you’re just digging your hole even deeper. At first it was DoL materials. Now you’re talking about crafted items. Make up your mind or come up with better lies. Regardless, if you were to undercut whatever they put up for sale just before they do so in order to buy their stuff for pennies, you would end up with a fortune as your profit margin would be insanely high.You don’t have competition when you resell crafted gear at 99% off the normal price.

The most pro-eminent automation software for this game has made a statement that they will never even consider giving players the option to have marketboard bots. Probably because they can’t over the fact that they don’t want to open that pandora’s box.

Keep on believing they exist though, just know that you can’t be taken seriously when you have nothing to back your story (which looks like swiss cheese).

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

Just because there's no solid in-game proof, doesn't mean they don't exist. Those that use them explicitly discuss them on Discord and a simple googling will tell you that they exist.

I'm curious though, as to why you sound so confident that they don't exist.

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Read above.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Asian RMT companies.

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They would actually benefit from higher prices not lower, the lower item costs overall the fewer people buying gil.

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

And when you drop the price of a high demand item, it creates a bubble, like I mentioned. Which is the thing everyone that has responded saying "lower prices sell faster" is forgetting. The price will rapidly crash and stock will deplete and demand will fall, then the price resets itself back to its original place. Sellers lose money or drop out of the market because their items suddenly become worthless. It ends up wasting time for everyone involved since then sellers start pulling items from the market to wait on the price to rise again. Keeping a steady, consistent price on an item is always the most sustainable way to sell, and undercutting by 1 is how you do it. It puts your items up first and also maintains the established price.

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It's wasted the time of everyone trying to maintain the high price, certainly. But the undercutter? It's time very well spent. Their product has sold, and they have cash-in hand. They recognized that the market was due for a change.

Undercutting by 1 isn't undercutting at all. It's a cheap attempt to sell your product without actually bending to the market pressure. It works, certainly - up until the point where someone actually wants to guarantee a sale, and makes a MEANINGFUL undercut.

If the only way to sell your product is to undercut by 1, there's too much product. A more drastic undercut is not only okay, it's NEEDED. The price needs to move down to the range where folks will actually purchase it. Seventeen copies of a product at 800,000, 799,999, and 799,998 where maybe two have sold in the past week is not the sign of a healthy market. If I were to try to sell this item, I'd mark it at 700,000, or even lower. In the next week, mine would sell for certain, and maybe one lucky 799,998 would manage to sell, assuming folks didn't wise up and (Lower the price?).

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Originally Posted by Big_Bap

Read above.

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As I said, a simple googling would show otherwise. If someone said they're not making one, what prevents the others from doing so? It's funny how you ask others for proof of something that a lot know exist, but your only proof that it doesn't exist is a statement.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

As I said, a simple googling would show otherwise. If someone said they're not making one, what prevents the others from doing so? It's funny how you ask others for proof of something that a lot know exist, but your only proof that it doesn't exist is a statement.

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Would show what exactly? Theres people wondering if it exist. People looking for one. People claiming such a thing exist.

I’ll say it again for the people in the back. The biggest botting platform for ffxiv has stated that they will not touch that pandora’s box and the same conclusion can be found on other automation platforms.

The truth is that it doesn’t exist. Prove me wrong.

At the end of the day, unless youre asking SE to implement a market control system (which will inevitably screw everything up), mass undercutters are just a part of the MB game. There shouldnt be to much debate about this. Yeah it sucks if someone drops the price and people chase the price drop but thats the way it is. You either follow suit or ride it out till it comes back up. As I said before, if the market average is stable, itll jump back up in a day or two at most. Blunt as I have to be, it does not matter if you like it or not - People are allowed to sell the items they get at any price they want despite your protests or own feelings on whether its great or not. Instead of worrying abotu what other people are doing, why dont we just worry about our own stuff and sell it at what we think is a fair price. If you think a price is way to low, put it up at a price you think is right and see where that goes. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Big_Bap

Would show what exactly? Theres people wondering if it exist. People looking for one. People claiming such a thing exist.

I’ll say it again for the people in the back. The biggest botting platform for ffxiv has stated that they will not touch that pandora’s box and the same conclusion can be found on other automation platforms.

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I'll say it again, just because the most famous one doesn't have it, that doesn't mean there are none out there. You forgot to mention in your search that there are some offering one. The reason the biggest botting one doesn't have it, is the same reason why a certain website for the market board no longer offers free updates to the prices but offers it for their patreons.

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Originally Posted by Big_Bap

The truth is that it doesn’t exist. Prove me wrong.

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The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

There is an omnicrafter from another server that started selling their stuff on my server (using an alt). They undercut the items by so much that it's no longer profitable to sell them because of the value of the mats themselves. Being a crafter myself, I've learned to adapt over the years so it's whatever, but it does make me question why this person is choosing to sell items at a loss.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Trust me, it does, and it's a little silly to think it doesn't when it happens in virtually every MMO on the market. They have bots that can run through the entire MSQ without use of hacks, so making one that simply undercuts people at fixed intervals would comparatively be a joke.

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While I have no doubt something like this COULD be done (because any action taken by a human in-game can be automated), the research I've done on the subject suggests it isn't anywhere near as widespread as people seem to believe it is.

People (not you specifically) seem to blame botting for every ridiculous market board fluctuation in the game. But the people on botting forums actually talking about bots and scripting aren't really having it. Their position, which makes all the sense in the world by the way, is that widespread use of market board undercutting bots would be SUPER easy to detect and would almost certainly just result in bans. There are definitely bots that will post items on the MB at undercut prices (though not drastic undercuts) and there are bots that will farm and then post their haul on a regular cycle. These absolutely exist. But as far as bots that monitor MB prices and auto-undercut? No. Precisely because two of them on the same server (and it would only take two) would be absurdly easy to spot for even rudimentary detection methods.

Y'know what's the far more likely explanation for the ridiculous undercutting we're seeing? People are stupid.

I've seen items that sell regularly for 200k suddenly be listed for 30k because they didn't sell in eight and a half minutes and the seller's blood sugar was spiking just then. A lot of people simply don't understand that high-value items take longer to sell. And it doesn't take a whole lot of these people to completely tank the market value for an item just because they want theirs to sell nownownow and aren't willing to wait for the natural sales cycle for a high-value item to take care of that.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

the research I've done on the subject suggests it isn't anywhere near as widespread as people seem to believe it is.

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Exactly, it isn't. SE would take action against the bots otherwise. Just like how they kept banning the ones that were used to update market board prices when everyone started using a certain website. Now that website only offers such service to a few that paid for it.

but... undercutting stuff gets it sold quicker! that's what I always do. :v If you match the price you're gonna be waiting till after the others sell before yours does. I want gil now.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

Then I will continue to buy them all up and re-sell them at 300x the price. Also, I can understand with a popular item this happening. But what I've noticed is like 2-3 people will extremely undercut and then everyone just follows suit, which basically saps all value from the item.

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300x the price. nice lie dude who has never sold a materia in his life, go waste more time leveling crafters ill stay here undercutting everyone till the day I die because thats the only way to sell anything.

I will major undercut if someone puts a level 10 item up for 10k gil. Been seeing alot of new players on Siren, so I want them to be able to get some gear. If it gets bought up and resold, not much I can do about that.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

I'll say it again, just because the most famous one doesn't have it, that doesn't mean there are none out there. You forgot to mention in your search that there are some offering one. The reason the biggest botting one doesn't have it, is the same reason why a certain website for the market board no longer offers free updates to the prices but offers it for their patreons.

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Who is offering? Literally no one. Why? Because you know damn well the moment this gets into the public's hands, it's game over for these platforms.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

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Nice contradiction with your sentences above. Don't ever try to make law school.

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Originally Posted by Big_Bap

Who is offering? Literally no one. Why? Because you know damn well the moment this gets into the public's hands, it's game over for these platforms.
Nice contradiction with your sentences above. Don't ever try to make law school.

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You claimed that they do not exist simply because you didn't find evidence of that. Nice Ad Ignorantiam right there. And yes, I know what will happen if it spread out like crazy to the public. But again, that doesn't mean they don't exist. I can't help you if you can't google stuff out though lol.

If you were to say "They exist but not a lot are using them" as Callinon said in their post, I would have agreed with you right there. But saying with 100% confidence that they don't exist, given the fact that someone can easily make one for themselves and we have different kinds of bots in the game, then you need to work on your reasoning skills.

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Originally Posted by hiedra

Being a crafter myself, I've learned to adapt over the years so it's whatever, but it does make me question why this person is choosing to sell items at a loss.

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They probably collected their items themselves, and then chose to sell the end product, rather than the mats, so that it might sell faster. Technically still get full profit if you collect the items yourself, rather than buying them.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

It is frustrating though.

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I understand the frustration. It used to bother me as well, but it got to a point in which I stopped giving in to undercutting so much that I bought out any items or undercutted below the point of its minimum value.

What I do now is I stop undercutting at a certain point. I just let the stuff sit there until it sells, and it eventually always does. Sometimes waiting a few days for something at 300k to sell is better than selling it sooner for 100k. This depends on the item of course. This strategy tends to only work for items whose materials are a pain to gather, or the item itself requires top-end crafting. Or anything at least moderately rare.

Items such as raw materials? I try to sell in stacks that are attractive to players. For example if a popular crafted item uses 5 of an item, then I'll sell in multiples of 5. If an item is only ever required to have 1 per craft, then I never sell it in stacks. Similar to the above I won't undercut into oblivion. At a certain point I will stop and wait, or just take it down from the mb and use it myself.

And sometimes you just have to realise that some items are not worth selling on the mb. The game has countless items to try to sell instead.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

They probably collected their items themselves, and then chose to sell the end product, rather than the mats, so that it might sell faster. Technically still get full profit if you collect the items yourself, rather than buying them.

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It's not full profit.

There's opportunity cost. The time spent farming/gathering something yourself could have been spent buying the mats from someone else and doing something more profitable.

This applies to retainer ventures as well.

However, there are people who don't value their time or might find farming/gathering themselves as fun, so they see mat cost as 0 gil.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

It's not full profit.

There's opportunity cost. The time spent farming/gathering something yourself could have been spent buying the mats from someone else and doing something more profitable.

This applies to retainer ventures as well.

However, there are people who don't value their time or might find farming/gathering themselves as fun, so they see mat cost as 0 gil.

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Possibilities and profit are not the same thing. Sure, they could have made more gil by just buying the mats and selling the item at a higher price, but the person hasn't lost any gil by farming the mats themselves and selling at an arbitrary desired price.

Not making some theoretical currency you may or may not have made if you had done <x> =/= A loss of currency you currently have invested in some endeavor.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

It's not full profit.

There's opportunity cost. The time spent farming/gathering something yourself could have been spent buying the mats from someone else and doing something more profitable.

This applies to retainer ventures as well.

However, there are people who don't value their time or might find farming/gathering themselves as fun, so they see mat cost as 0 gil.

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I also want to add that the items they are selling use mats that come from the new tomes. So even if they're self sufficient it still takes a considerable amount of effort to craft those particular items that they then ended up severely undercutting.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Stuff that you craft for profit might be trash for other players who just want to get rid of it quickly no matter the price.

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Most of the stuff I sell is just to clear out my bags. I'll usually undercut by a dignificant amount just to get rid of the stiff quickly. Other items, if I see that the HQ version is going for 100 times the price of NW, I consider that unfair, and will sell my HQ items at a MUCH lower price than the current HQ's, but usually twice the highest NQ.