Ranged DPS role is about to be excluded from all content

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Originally Posted by Eliadil

"huge damage buffs". I would be very surprised to see why sam is, in your opinion, in a good spot now :p Although I'm still doubting about the fact that even Ninja is above Sam when it comes to rdps now.

Monk are having a great life atm, but saying that the current ninja/sam buffs are on the same level as the monk ones is really being out of touch with the whole melee balance right now ^^

I'm still hoping that 5.1 will solve every issue, and it better be. I don't want a Stormblood balance to happen again, where some class had to wait until 4.4 just to be accepted in most pf.

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Sure, at max parse on E4S (so people playing the jobs as optimally as it gets), SAM is 460 Rdps behind DRG firmly in the 4th spot and it's also 700 rDPS ahead of SMN (the 5th dps job in damage right now), 5.08 is, according to some fast math I did, an approximate 2,8% damage gain putting SAM rDPS at only 50 rDPS behind DRG, however SAM aDPS will be higher, meaning SAM will be basically equal to the job everyone is calling overpowered a.k.a DRG, BLM and MNK are even more imba, however even the distance between BLM (the most "imba" dps and SAM the last of the OP dps jobs) is way smaller than the dps gap between SAM and SMN.

SAM receiving an almost 3% buff to its dps while everyone behind it got basically nothing is awful balance.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

There are some jobs that are better for progging like RDM, there are others that are immune to movement mechanics like ranged DPS, so it seems fair that those who are weak to mechanics (casters and melee) have higher DPS than those who can move freely and have 100% uptime no matter what.

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Nobody is saying that ranged DPS should do the same damage as melee DPS, they are saying that the disparity in the damage is causing parties to not value ranged at all.

IMO ranged should be rebalanced to have high utility while keeping their current damage, this would make parties value them while still balancing them against their benefits. That won't happen though, so more damage is needed to make them viable.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...23/unknown.png

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Originally Posted by Yandere-chan

I think things are at a reasonable middle ground when Ranged DPS generally performs better in fights that are both highly mobile and impossible to have high uptime for melee.

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Point me to a fight in current content where this actually happens. Even older can do.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

No one is seriously considering triple melee.

That is a meme and a trash panda joke.

Fights are frequently built in such a way that triple melee will destroy one players dps. (Even if it is the tank that enslds up screwed).

Dbl black mage tho is a real threat sadly. And ranged do need a bump.

Alternatively tho blm and mnk need a slight nerf. Game pretty easy right now. Ive been saying this for awhile but i think the optimal balance goal is right around 1% below current DRG lvl.

I do also firmly believe that some ranged tax has to exist. They by far have mechanics the easiest because of their mobility. It absolutely shouldnt be as severe as it currently is, but it does need to exist.

Also the SAM balance didnt math NIN right. Nins think the lineup will be MNK>>SAM>DRG=NIN

But its still up in the air till seen in practice via parses.

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Actually, yes they are. Neither Voidwalker nor Leviathan have any Range specific mechanics outside Black Smokers. And you can just have a the Scholar handle it. There's also a very real possibility triple melee works for Titan, albeit it with some janky movements. The first set of triangles would just require pulling Titan a bit further back so he's reachable at max melee. Or you have a PLD save their Holy Spirit window for this point. The Merry-go-round is a bit... odd. How you would theoretically handle it is by having them stay in melee range then momentarily step out to drop their triangle marker just before it goes off. They'd lose a couple GCDs but it's manageable. You should skip the last set entirely.

Now that's all speculation on my part, and I certainly don't see PF ever attempting this. But at least two fights are 100% triple melee friendly.

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

Sure, at max parse on E4S (so people playing the jobs as optimally as it gets), SAM is 460 Rdps behind DRG firmly in the 4th spot and it's also 700 rDPS ahead of SMN (the 5th dps job in damage right now), 5.08 is, according to some fast math I did, an approximate 2,8% damage gain putting SAM rDPS at only 50 rDPS behind DRG, however SAM aDPS will be higher, meaning SAM will be basically equal to the job everyone is calling overpowered a.k.a DRG, BLM and MNK are even more imba, however even the distance between BLM (the most "imba" dps and SAM the last of the OP dps jobs) is way smaller than the dps gap between SAM and SMN.

SAM receiving an almost 3% buff to its dps while everyone behind it got basically nothing is awful balance.

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According to fflogs data for the last 2 weeks of savage, MNK is the outlier.. BLM has to be purple to beat a green monk... which is utterly dominating for rdps.

If anything mnk needs that extra dps passed out to the bottom 3 and it didn't happen this patch.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Nobody is saying that ranged DPS should do the same damage as melee DPS, they are saying that the disparity in the damage is causing parties to not value ranged at all.

IMO ranged should be rebalanced to have high utility while keeping their current damage, this would make parties value them while still balancing them against their benefits. That won't happen though, so more damage is needed to make them viable.

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Is there any job unable to complete the hardest content due failed DPS checks? No. Therefore it's just a matter of community perception. Same thing happens in other games like WoW where if you don't play X job you aren't invited into groups despite being perfectly capable of clearing the content. Elitism is what kills the jobs, not a 2k DPS difference.

There was an exceptional case which was NIN, being melee with it's utility gutted and being bottom DPS, but they already buffed it so now it's time to see how those buffs affect the rankings.

I'm also a big defensor of Easy job = low damage and Hard job = high damage, despite the controversy when measuring difficulty.

Of course there are others that need fixes, DNC needs a slight damage buff and SMN needs a complete rework beacause this oGCD spam is maddening.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Actually, yes they are. Neither Voidwalker nor Leviathan have any Range specific mechanics outside Black Smokers. And you can just have a the Scholar handle it. There's also a very real possibility triple melee works for Titan, albeit it with some janky movements. The first set of triangles would just require pulling Titan a bit further back so he's reachable at max melee. Or you have a PLD save their Holy Spirit window for this point. The Merry-go-round is a bit... odd. How you would theoretically handle it is by having them stay in melee range then momentarily step out to drop their triangle marker just before it goes off. They'd lose a couple GCDs but it's manageable. You should skip the last set entirely.

Now that's all speculation on my part, and I certainly don't see PF ever attempting this. But at least two fights are 100% triple melee friendly.

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How do triple melee work on E2S tower mechanics tho? Sure it is not a huge dps loss and tanks are doing less damage than SB so losing tank gcds is not a huge issue, but I can't see how you do that without at least some loss.

Not to be a a## but you are 100% exaggerating, range can NEVER be replaced many mechanics demand that role of range class or you wipe lol.

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Originally Posted by plasmacutter

According to fflogs data for the last 2 weeks of savage, MNK is the outlier.. BLM has to be purple to beat a green monk... which is utterly dominating for rdps.

If anything mnk needs that extra dps passed out to the bottom 3 and it didn't happen this patch.

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this is so far from the truth one has to wonder if its intentional misinformation sorry but savage data for the last two weeks (all bosses, savage, raid dps) puts a 50% monk (so blue, not green) at 12.599 dps whereas a purple blackmage (exactly 75% percentile) sits at 12.986 , a purple blackmage is contributing nearly 400 dps more (rightfully obviously) to the raid than a BLUE monk, not green, blue so no, blm does not have to be purple to beat a green monk.


and to everyone saying "oh yea, ranged is so easy, movement is free and roation is obviously easy" (because that gets ignored completly, not even saying they are hard, but if bard had movement and would need to perfectly press 50 different buttons to perform well while blackmage had a single button some people would still stay "but blackmage has to work around mechanics, bard has free full uptime"), as it stands right now a 50% (literally barely blue) blm/dragoon/monk contributes about the same raiddamage as a 90% bard (blm is about as much below as monk is above with dragoon right in the middle), if some people really think playing a monk at 50% is about equal to playing a bard at 90% than i don't know what to say

edit:

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

How do triple melee work on E2S tower mechanics tho? Sure it is not a huge dps loss and tanks are doing less damage than SB so losing tank gcds is not a huge issue, but I can't see how you do that without at least some loss.

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they "work" in that it doesnt matter if they lose 2,3,4 or even 10 global cooldowns if their baseline is "offers 1500 dps more"

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

Is there any job unable to complete the hardest content due failed DPS checks? No.

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With 7 99% players a job with 0 dps would be able to complete hardest content.

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Originally Posted by ValkyrieL

Not to be a a## but you are 100% exaggerating, range can NEVER be replaced many mechanics demand that role of range class or you wipe lol.

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Triple melee + BLM, what fight is going to be impossible with this?

R.I.P. dancer

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

this is so far from the truth one has to wonder if its intentional misinformation sorry but savage data for the last two weeks (all bosses, savage, raid dps) puts a 50% monk (so blue, not green) at 12.599 dps whereas a purple blackmage (exactly 75% percentile) sits at 12.986 , a purple blackmage is contributing nearly 400 dps more (rightfully obviously) to the raid than a BLUE monk, not green, blue so no, blm does not have to be purple to beat a green monk."

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You accuse me of lying then produce the same figures I did and confirm what I said.

The top end of green on a MNK = bottom end of purple on BLM (and stupidly ahead of the rest) and that's nuts.

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Originally Posted by ValkyrieL

Not to be a a## but you are 100% exaggerating, range can NEVER be replaced many mechanics demand that role of range class or you wipe lol.

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2 BLM

/10char

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Originally Posted by plasmacutter

You accuse me of lying then produce the same figures I did and confirm what I said.

The top end of green on a MNK = bottom end of purple on BLM (and stupidly ahead of the rest) and that's nuts.

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you said "purple is necessary to beat out green" green does not imply 49,99% and "purple" doesn't mean 75.00% (theres also still the around 370 dps these hypothetical blm in this scenario has on the monk), if you want to go that route than a blm at around 63% is the point where it would "beat out" the green monk as it would pass him by like 1 dps, so "middle of the pack blue compared to "absolute top of green" thats a lot different than "purple to beat green"

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

you said "purple is necessary to beat out green" green does not imply 49,99% and "purple" doesn't mean 75.00% (theres also still the around 370 dps these hypothetical blm in this scenario has on the monk), if you want to go that route than a blm at around 63% is the point where it would "beat out" the green monk as it would pass him by like 1 dps, so "middle of the pack blue compared to "absolute top of green" thats a lot different than "purple to beat green"

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Quibble all you want, it doesn't change the fact a half-sleeping monk which has mobility and group buffs easily beats an alert BLM that is rooted to the spot and loses ~10k damage every time they take a step.

Let me guess: MNK main?

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

Is there any job unable to complete the hardest content due failed DPS checks? No. Therefore it's just a matter of community perception. Same thing happens in other games like WoW where if you don't play X job you aren't invited into groups despite being perfectly capable of clearing the content. Elitism is what kills the jobs, not a 2k DPS difference.

There was an exceptional case which was NIN, being melee with it's utility gutted and being bottom DPS, but they already buffed it so now it's time to see how those buffs affect the rankings.

I'm also a big defensor of Easy job = low damage and Hard job = high damage, despite the controversy when measuring difficulty.

Of course there are others that need fixes, DNC needs a slight damage buff and SMN needs a complete rework beacause this oGCD spam is maddening.

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It's nmot elitism. It's people choosing the path of least resistance. Same reason why no one wants 70 raids for roulette instead of 50 etc Whatever makes things easier people will always gravitate towards.

A repeat argument in this thread is that:

Ranged are unaffected by mechanics.
meaning
Melee/Casters are affected by mechanics.
meaning
It's easier for average ranged players to get higher dps during these times.
meaning
It's harder for average melee/caster players to get higher dps during these times.
meaning
Average ranged players are doing relatively higher dps than average melee/caster, and this should be considered for balancing.

This argument is extremely unfair. It's assuming that average ranged dps are performing perfectly at all times. They aren't. These players still have to perform their rotation correctly, and they are in average rankings because they don't. They make mistakes. They get distracted by mechanics. Getting distracted by mechanics is exactly the same reason that average percentile melee/casters don't maximize their uptime. The potential of a ranged job's rotation to remain unaffected by mechanics (instead of being paused for 1-2 GCDs or saving a mobility cooldown) is not the same thing as potential performance.

Arguments where ranged are framed in perfect scenarios and everyone else is given tons of leeway do not make good cases for balancing ranged tax. Ranged tax should be balanced around potential uptime, which it is currently very far from being.

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

A repeat argument in this thread is that:

Ranged are unaffected by mechanics.
meaning
Melee/Casters are affected by mechanics.
meaning
It's easier for average ranged players to get higher dps during these times.
meaning
It's harder for average melee/caster players to get higher dps during these times.
meaning
Average ranged players are doing relatively higher dps than average melee/caster, and this should be considered for balancing.

This argument is extremely unfair. It's assuming that average ranged dps are performing perfectly at all times. They aren't. These players still have to perform their rotation correctly, and they are in average rankings because they don't. They make mistakes. They get distracted by mechanics. Getting distracted by mechanics is exactly the same reason that average percentile melee/casters don't maximize their uptime. The potential of a ranged job's rotation to remain unaffected by mechanics (instead of being paused for 1-2 GCDs or saving a mobility cooldown) is not the same thing as potential performance.

Arguments where ranged are framed in perfect scenarios and everyone else is given tons of leeway do not make good cases for balancing ranged tax. Ranged tax should be balanced around potential uptime, which it is currently very far from being.

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This "ranged tax" makes sense in other franchises (WoW comes to mind - where blizz had always over-punished melee) , but Square is very, very good at pressuring ranged in this game.

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Originally Posted by plasmacutter

Quibble all you want, it doesn't change the fact a half-sleeping monk which has mobility and group buffs easily beats an alert BLM that is rooted to the spot and loses ~10k damage every time they take a step.

Let me guess: MNK main?

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wrong guess, would say nice try but not really. But yes the monk has group buffs, which for the record are allready included in this dps comparison which is the exact reason why it is in fact above blackmage. your argument at this point literally is blackmage does like 50 dps more than monk but monk buffs the group for 400 dps AND has group Buffs. is monk "op" ? yes in the sense that its the strongest job right now, but don't double dip on the group buffs, the buffs are the reason why the damage is so freaking high, it is not "too much damage AND buffs" its "too much damage Because of buffs"

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Originally Posted by plasmacutter

This "ranged tax" makes sense in other franchises (WoW comes to mind - where blizz had always over-punished melee) , but Square is very, very good at pressuring ranged in this game.

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Yeah, agreed. e.g. For MCH, wildfire comes up a fraction of a second before one of the eyes goes off in E2S. Depending on your sks, you might have to delay it. This kind of stuff is all over the game. Not to mention the extra distance you frequently have to run to accommodate the rest of your group for mechanics (E1S, E3S have lots of good examples). There's a lot of moving ahead of time and then getting back fast for AoE heals, more so than the healers/casters at times.

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

Yeah, agreed. e.g. For MCH, wildfire comes up a fraction of a second before one of the eyes goes off in E2S. Depending on your sks, you might have to delay it. This kind of stuff is all over the game. Not to mention the extra distance you frequently have to run to accommodate the rest of your group for mechanics (E1S, E3S have lots of good examples). There's a lot of moving ahead of time and then getting back fast for AoE heals, more so than the healers/casters at times.

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At the end of the day they balance around the ~60% mark for player efficiency (barring deaths) for this reason (with intentional creeping gear inflation pushing that to the 40% mark).

This entire discussion comes down to psychology:
Nobody likes the creeping realization they have to chug meth to do what a half-sleeping person can on a different class.. at least not without bringing utility that makes a visible difference to them (like ver-raise! the champion of learning parties!)

Is there a need for this ranged tax? Yes, for sure else why anyone would play Melee jobs?
But is there any Melee loosing 1K to 1.5K DPS for dealing with mechanics? If yes I have very bad news for you...

That ranged tax was relevant in Stormblood as ranged had very usefull tools such as Refresh, Tactician, Requiem/Hypercharge, Dismantle... Rest in peace sweet prince.
I never played healer during raid but it basically allowed them to DPS without fearing for their MP. Indirectly, it was rDPS but I can't say how much. Back then, the DPS difference was about... 8, 9% between ranged and the top DPS? The idea is that it was not as much as today and that now we don't have that utility to support this low DPS.

ShB ranged DPS are taxed like if Refresh and Dismantle/Songs, Hypercharge/Requiem&Crit buff were still a thing.

The remaining arguments are the damage reduction buff (Tactician, Samba, Song) and the mobility. Honestly I don't see how 10% reduction every 180 seconds would cost more than Dismantle and it was 10% every 60 seconds. Ranged shouldn't reach BLM/MNK DPS for sure but a perfect ranged should not be rewarded with a 50th BLM/MNK DPS. The tax exist so casters and melees may exist.

But I don't see positionnals/casting/melee range being such a pain that it costs you 1k DPS. If that's the case, you may need to improve.

For 2 years MCH was unfun and unplayable.
Now the job is fixed with flashy animations but is shooting spaghettis.
Our comp is MNK/RDM/DNC/MCH, why do we need to push harder simply because we want to play the jobs we love? We intend to tackle Ultimate but how tight the DPS checks will be?

I just want to have fun and feel usefull to my team, SE. Complexify the rangeds rotation, bring back utility, just give us something so I don't feel like a weight! I don't play perfectly, but even if I was, I would perform better on a Black mage and it's extremely disheartening to see the ranged role in such a state.

Honestly it is easy for SE to at least return the old range DPS's back to relevance: bring back their old raid buffs.

Return bard's Foe Requiem and 2% crit on songs, and return machinists' raid turret/robot buffs and their other utilities. Then increase Dancer's raid dps accordingly. It also gives then the raid DPS their identity.

EDIT: Woops, CKNovel basically said the same thing, so yeah I approve of their message!

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

How do triple melee work on E2S tower mechanics tho? Sure it is not a huge dps loss and tanks are doing less damage than SB so losing tank gcds is not a huge issue, but I can't see how you do that without at least some loss.

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Admittedly, I forgot about towers. Still, you could have the tank lose a couple GCDs unless PLD has Holy Spirit ready there. As you said, tank DPS just isn't that high.

Grants Brotherhood and Meditative Brotherhood to all nearby party members.
Brotherhood Effect: Increases physical damage dealt by 5%.
Meditative Brotherhood Effect: 30% chance you open a chakra when party members under this effect execute a weaponskill
Duration: 15s

Nerf it to this

Grants "Meditative Brotherhood" to all nearby party members.
Brotherhood Effect: Increases own physical damage dealt by 5%.
Meditative Brotherhood Effect: Increases HP recovery via healing actions by 20% for self and nearby party members and 30% chance you open a chakra when party members under this effect execute a weaponskill
Duration: 15s

Delete Mantra

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Originally Posted by plasmacutter

At the end of the day they balance around the ~60% mark for player efficiency (barring deaths) for this reason (with intentional creeping gear inflation pushing that to the 40% mark).

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I surmised as much that this was the case. The ranged tax basically exists to balance ranged players against average melee and caster (mostly blm) players who lose uptime constantly, say, the assumption that an equivalent melee/blm only has 70% uptime. The problem with this is actual good players on those jobs get 99% uptime in reality since fights are so easy, so the ranged tax loses relevance at high levels of skill. What this means is that,

1. If you play ranged, you basically have an artificial ceiling where even the best ranged player in the world will produce numbers no better than a 60-70th percentile melee. You're being punished because other people out there play badly, there's no way for you to overcome your tax through skill.

2. Conversely, if you're a melee/blm and perform better than this baseline, you are rewarded for your effort because you will produce dps that is literally overtuned.

It has really chilling implications for the health of these roles if that's indeed how they balance them, because who would insult themselves by playing a ranged in that case? Since we have limited jobs now, may as well slap a few labels on the other jobs to differentiate them more. Ranged and rdm can have the 'beginner job' label, and the melees and blm can be called 'expert jobs'. That's essentially how they're being tuned after all, so why not just make it official.

To me this is just proof we need to get rid of dps buffing groups stuff, and balance all the classes best they can be. So you can bring the play style you enjoy. but I'm sure people will cry about that for some strange reason.

Tbh it might be time to give up on the RDM dream haha.

Haha don’t know if I have it in me to level another job up though haha

Yeah physical ranged DPS will need a buff once other casters get theirs. Its important however too keep in mind that in SB we had the opposite issue where it was physical ranged dps that were meta and most casters weren't favored in the top 1%.

You can't make all phyisical ranged as strong as casters because they have better party wide buffs than casters (minus MCH) so if you overtune them it will be SB all over again.

MCH is the exception and honestly should be doing as much as what SMNs do once they get buffed.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Yeah physical ranged DPS will need a buff once other casters get theirs. Its important however too keep in mind that in SB we had the opposite issue where it was physical ranged dps that were meta and most casters weren't favored in the top 1%.

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That was literally only a thing because of community perception and the fact that piercing meta existed. Piercing meta no longer exists, so party comps are a lot more free-form nowadays. What I mean by community perception is that casters lacked significant buffs that could contribute to inflating other party members' numbers. All for the sake of a ranking on a third party website. SE doesn't balance around padded logs, and that's why the neglected classes of Stormblood weren't really touched until later on - as they were actually fine design-wise, only they weren't part of a community-enforced meta for reasons outside of the game itself. (Though I admit RDM was really left behind at the end, their situation in SB is nowhere near as bad as their current situation and the bottom 5 in ShB now, where the gap between classes has now become so wide to the point where one can no longer doubt that class composition is absolutely a bigger factor over player skill in determining whether or not your team can beat enrage.)

Now, the problem is that the DPS gap between the top rdps class and the bottom is about a 1.5-2k difference, with a 1k gap that separates the top five from the bottom five for no good reason. It's no longer a problem of community perception since FFLogs overhauled how contribution is credited so that padding isn't really a thing anymore, it's a straight up design problem within the game itself. Ironically, had they kept their old display, people wouldn't have pushed for Ninja and Dancer buffs at all, because both would have been considered meta by the community for, again, a purpose outside of the game itself.

"Let's take BLM as the comparison point since they also have the same ranged advantage"

What?

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Originally Posted by ValkyrieL

Not to be a a## but you are 100% exaggerating, range can NEVER be replaced many mechanics demand that role of range class or you wipe lol.

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Double BLM is seriously being considered for the speedkill meta. The physical ranged aren't strong enough, and healers can easily just take over ranged mechanics like Black Smokers in E3S. Which is the only real "ranged mechanic" this tier has.

What are Black Smokers? Sounds like a mechanic you won't even see on a speedkill to me.

Summoner's got a QOL change, not a buff. They're still going to be in the bottom half of DPS and over 1000 DPS behind black mage.

The physical ranged and 2 casters that aren't black mage are all kind of crappy right now.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

What are Black Smokers? Sounds like a mechanic you won't even see on a speedkill to me.

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I mean. Fair enough. i was just pointing out it's the only "ranged mechanic" this tier has. There aren't really any other valid ones to keep a physical ranged in the meta as ValkyrieL was implying (versus just doing double BLM).


EDIT because I left this out of my last response and don't want to dedicate another point to it.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

To me this is just proof we need to get rid of dps buffing groups stuff, and balance all the classes best they can be. So you can bring the play style you enjoy. but I'm sure people will cry about that for some strange reason.

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Removing buffs would just mean that the highest damage dealing jobs are now the most viable and belong to the meta. Any DPS that deal lower damage would be considered weaker and non-meta; and, as is currently the case with the current weak jobs, allow for less mistakes/mishaps compared to the highest damage dealing jobs, which would have more wiggle room. There would still be a meta: it would just be a selfish, personal damage-centric meta as opposed to a meta with utility aspects, as has been the case in the past.

Removing utility isn't really the solution here, in my opinion - adjusting the heavy tax the bottom 5 jobs have is. Plus, I have no desire to play a BRD or a DNC with zero utility. It would just be a generic DPS that attacks at range with nothing to really distinguish it from the other damage dealers.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Well i can't warm this bench myself!

~Red Mage main

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Don't worry, we dancers warm that sucker up right with you every 2 minutes.

Class balance doesnt effect casuals. If youre not effected it doesn't mean nobody is.

If your group is willing to replace you because your role is so lethargic that none of the 3 classes in your role can outplay just having 3 melee and 1 black mage EVEN after losing the 1% stat buff for not having a physical ranged then there is an issue with class balance. I'm sorry.

In optimal play, right now, physical ranged (and non-blm caster) are dramatically outperformed, much more due to the recent melee buffs removing the dispairity between goon and sam and pulling ninja up, warranted by its high CPM/ping requirement

MCH and BRD will continue to get worse because 0 raid buffs + linear scaling with battle voice is worse than Dancer's multiplicative scaling with Crit and balance. MCH less so because lack of literally any party utility (the shield is redundant with BRD/DNC).

People are under the assumption that because you can hit the boss at all ranges that your ceiling should be much lower, but the reality is that there is barely any IF ANY content in the game right now than penalizes you enough for being in range to push you out of max melee. I play MCH at max melee or closer 95+% of the time, and I barely ever utilize my mobility. So because my mobility exists as a tool I can use, I have to be inherently penalized for playing the same positioning as a melee who may have 1 positional but 95% similar uptime? The result is, for fights where you dont need to utilize that mobility, you just don't play ranged at all, which essentially comes down to all of the fights that BLM/Healer can substitute for ranged for mechanics.

Ranged mobility is as much a necessity for the whole team for mechanics centered around ranged mobility than it is for the ranged player themselves to be penalized for it. That movement is worthless in the grand scheme of things. It may gain a handfull of gcds over some melee greed that is required in most fights.

If they want to make my class worse for having mobility, then give us a penalty for being at range. There is no excuse for there to be a 1.5k+ disparity between jobs when played optimally. Give ranged similar melee scaling while barrel stuffing the boss with a penalty/fall off when leaving max melee and a true north button with charges to account for heavier damage at range. They won't do this though because mechanics are centered around having some ranged to complete them, so instead we just get penalized for existing and its stupid. P.ranged have busy rotations and priority systems and spend a lot of time staring at hotbars with a high skill ceiling that feels unrewarding because of the mobility DPS penalty that hardly ever is warranted penalizing for.

The big meme is I do less damage and still need to bait puddles in ucob, so I guess less damage gets me more responsibility in ultimate. Makes total sense.

If ranged is performing better at low level because of the mobility, that's nice, we should see that in fflog, at 25% how high we are:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...53/unknown.png

Yeah right, nevermind, it's the same.

People have to understand that ranged tax is a bad thing. Ranged have that mobility to do the mechanics instead of the melees and casters that wont move anyway in uptime strats. Even during SB, where MCH were outdpsing most other dps, triple melee was a thing on some fight, losing 2/3 GCD is a low price if the dps is way higher.

YoshiP literally said during the last liveletter SA, and you can see it in the transcript:

Quote:

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As for samurai's DPS, samurai’s burst is designed to take advantage of party buffs from other party members. However, we agree that its DPS is low compared to that of black mage, another pure DPS job. Black mage was balanced around being the only magic ranged DPS without Raise and party buffs, and we believe samurai should do a little bit more damage as it is in a similar situation, so its potency values will be slightly adjusted in patch 5.08.

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So I have to raise the question: MCH has the EXACT same things as them, they have an aoe mitigation , but with two times the CD of an addle and feint. and even that SAM balance still make it be behind the other 3 melee.

And dont talk about difficulty, if a job is better at high lvl, people will play it, that's it. There is no reason why a monk should be that high or higher than a sam or mch, they have so much more comfort with their kit now that even positionals arent a problem anymore.

It isn't a problem in savage, even if a 95% mch was literally a gray monk for a while, but Ultimate is coming, and by looking at what they said, ranged wont get a change. That means no change before 5.2. But if we look at the past, jobs didnt get changed before .4, and mch was only buffed during 4.5 where NOTHING was relevant anymore.