Primal drop system, still no changes?!

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Originally Posted by Antipika

You're just lucky, nothing was changed at all... Or we would have been told that it was changed. There is no point for SE to "ninja fix" something like this without letting players know since it's a "positive" change.

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SE ninja fix stuff all the time, beneficial and negativo.

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Originally Posted by Dragonheart

We're sorry but... blaaa blaaa blaaa, blaaa blaa, bla.... 2.0 !

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They should get one of those robo phone women for that message.

"We're sorry, but your call cannot be completed as dialed. Please hang up the phone and try again ... some time in the future."

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Originally Posted by Junpei

Drop for moogle and ifrit have significant increased since 1.21
Every single run I have been in has dropped at LEAST 1 weapon to the party. Usually and occasionally 3.

But it has been a guaranteed drop every run! so you have a 1 in 8 chance of something \o/

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http://www.randomnumbergenerator.com/

Its just a grind-fest time-sink. After coming back and finding out the tokens dropped less than actual weapons ... and were not 100% drop rate i was pretty pissed that it was still mostly grind grind grind grind grind.

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Originally Posted by tachi

Also the ifrit weapons/moogle weapons are nearly all BIS and they are a very sizable increase in DPS over the seals/crafted counterparts. Why should the best weapons in game be easy to get?

Personally I wish we got 1 chest and it was a 25% drop rate but tradable. I would gladly spam ifrit and give the drop to whoever needed it most. Its about the same amount of runs to get a full group 7/7 (around 200 runs).

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if that's what they expect i should have had all my ifrit weapons months ago. we're over 400 wins and still sitting 6/7. the point is when you use a random number generator and a low drop rate there's no way everyone will get that lucky.

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Originally Posted by Junpei

SE ninja fix stuff all the time, beneficial and negativo.

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When its minor sure. You just make no sense however.

When the whole community is complaining about something, if a change going the community way is made, why would SE hide it? Hey remember we are now paying for this. SE's goal to try and please us to the best they can. So there wouldn't be any valid reason for them not to tell us.

Check patch notes, even very small changes are in there. Why this very one would be excluded? Simple, because nothing was changed anyway... Drop rate is still as bad as before.

You guys do realize that the totems can be passed right? So if you agree to pass totems to one person until they have enough to purchase the weapons they want, it's easy for them to get the weapon of their choice within 2-3 hours max. I've done this several times with my LS, it works. And it's completely fair if you focus on getting a weapon for a different person every day.

Some of you have mistaken the bad Primal drop system with the Loot system that will be introduced with 2.0 . We need little changes to how drop works with Primal, no Loot list or something that actually can't be done.
If you do runs with your LS maybe there won't be any problem in passing Totems to who needs them, but when you play with people of other LS this doesn't happen. (It's not selfishness^^)
Primal fights have different other annoying problems such as farming keystones/taper and waiting 15 mins after each win, if you add that 150+ runs are needed to get weapons it becomes a huge pain in the ass... But about this we can be patient... Or not? ^^

Agreed that totems/nuts should be 100% drop rate. Make them unpassable if you need to. Killing the same boss over, and over, and over again just to get nothing is not only frustrating and boring but a horrible mechanic as well.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

I know how it feels ... 2/150 on Ifrit here, and they are the BLM and WHM weapons, which are pretty much useless.

And since Ifrit weapons are clearly the best DPS DoW weapons, it is quite annoying to know you'll always be a few DPS behind other serious players.

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Hi Chinook,

Wow! So even with Blue Garter helping you, you're still only 2/150 on Ifrit? :( /comfort

That reminds me of one of my good JP friends who went on an 0/70 streak. I'm currently on an ~0/50 streak (I gave up counting) for the Harpoon.

The bottom line is that this is a blatant Time Sink by Yoshida-san and the devs. The Dzemael Darkhold System (where Unique / Untradeable Loot dropping into your Loot Pool (to pass to others)) worked and wasn't broken, heck even the NEW Cutter's Cry and Aurum Vale Chest Items can drop into your Loot Pool to pass to others.

It's clear the Primal Drops were put in place to stall and buy time between patches.

It's just unfortunate they chose such a tiresome, annoying, outdated way to stall for time.

I love the Primal Fights (well-designed), but their Drop System is horrible.

still whining about this... get a brain please!!! this system is in place to draw out content! that is all! they will not change the loot system until we get dangerously close to 2.0 and even then, who knows!?

you got it, kiara

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Originally Posted by ejiboo

still whining about this... get a brain please!!! this system is in place to draw out content! that is all! they will not change the loot system until we get dangerously close to 2.0 and even then, who knows!?

you got it, kiara

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this system is in place because it was a horrible decision. it draws out content by making the content stale and aggrivating. that could have been done multiple ways to draw it out and make the content viable, but they chose the way to make it get boring and annoying.

i know for a fact once i get my last weapon i don't see me ever touching that junk again because of the forced grind i had to endure to get them all the first time unless it's to help another member of the group that helped me get mine their last weapon. i feel sorry for people that come into the game later and actually think someone would help them with it.

Content is finite. 8 things to do that you can clear in 3 days means 24 days of playing. 8 things to do that takes a month each means 8 months of playing. Content is not limitless. There is a cap on how much content there can be and how in depth it can be. If there's no reason to keep doing it, you will finish, and MMO's aren't meant to be finished.

Ifrit weapons still are the best in game atm so its normal to have a hard time getting those weapons, i dont even have my ifrit axe, the drop system have low chances but at least u can get a good long lasting weapon

I could care less about the horrible drop rate. I'm sure others will agree with me when I say just change it so it goes in the loot bag. That's all it needs.

Loot Pool with Pass/Cast Lot Options... why does this even need to be discussed..

oh..

server limitations..

I didn't read the whole thread, but I gotta assume that people who did ifrit and got all there weapons long ago probably roll there eyes at threads like this. Do I have all the weapons? Yes. Did it take me 150 + runs? Probably. Did I do way more than half those runs with LS mates who regularly passed totems to each other and, if they had all 7 weapons, ran ifrit to exp crafts and such? Yes. My point is that people who complain about not getting certain drops from ifrit and moogle are, in my opinion, the same people that will never touch those battles again after they get the drop they want. These fights are fun and offer a lot more than just 7 drops. If you have a solid group of friends or a LS that is constantly growing with new people that need to learn how to do the fight and get the weapons too, you should have no problem getting the drops you want eventually. Try beating ifrit in 7 minutes. Try out damaging everyone no matter how long the fight lasts. Try leveling up some DoH and DoL to use the 4-5k exp you get from every battle. Honestly, once you have all the weapons, they loose there luster VERY quickly. If gettng them is the only thing you care about in this game or in these fights, then yes, you probably arent playing the right game....

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

We checked in with the dev. team about the drop rates of Inferno Totems and Kupo Nut Charms.

They let us know that they are looking into the following options for the drop rate adjustments:

• Increase the drop rate for both items
• Make them have 100% drop rate, but reduce the number that can be obtained at one time

We would love to hear your feedback on the above two options. ^_^

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I'll just quote this post in the original thread in advance free of charge. Now this will buy the dev. team another 3 months.;)

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Originally Posted by Godking

I could care less about the horrible drop rate. I'm sure others will agree with me when I say just change it so it goes in the loot bag. That's all it needs.

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Being able to give your 15th ifrits bow to the archers/bards who are 0/150 would solve alot of things imo.

dude it call a ls, get ppl to do it with you and pass totem or nut and you will be 7/7 okthxbye

I could go out on a limb and say that the drop rate could be affected by the speed upon which your group defeats Ifrit, but that's just based off personal experience and luck with my linkshell. Back when we just started to kill Ifrit semi-reliably we were were lucky to ever scrape by with over 5 minutes left, but the drop rates were abysmal and someone in the group would maybe get one or two weapons/totems every 5-10 runs. Nowadays, however we often kill him in less than 10 minutes and each time we have at least one totem usually dropped. I don't really have any evidence to support this and it's just speculation, getting 7/7 Weapons could entirely be due to killing him quicker now, but I only completed all 7 recently and have obtained at least 2-3 copies of most of the weapons since then.

haha, OP is complaining about moogle weapons. I still keep getting the same useless ifrit weapon, which makes me still 1/7 on those.

To all those claiming that it's SE's way of drawing out content, and actually to IDIOT RETARDED Squeenix devs themselves, the ones that ever allowed this absurdity to pass through development and go live:

FAIL/DERP/BURP!

No this loot system by NO MEANS draws out the content. The only thing this system achieved for me (and I'm pretty sure others as well) is making me DISGUSTED with it and flat out REFUSING TO EVER DO IFRIT AGAIN anymore. After 120ish wins and 3 weapons acquired (one of them gotten by totems which I got 11 of IN TOTAL! IN 120+ WINS! And 3 of those were PASSED to me!) even the MENTIONING of Ifrit makes me wanna jump outta my window screaming.

And, seeing this retardedness multiplied in the Moogle fight (20 kupo nuts?! ARE YOU NUTS?! (pun intended!)), I did the fight exactly 4 times. Lost the first 2, Won the 2 last, got a DERP Nut, passed to a 19/20 random guy and FUCK OFF WITH THIS SHIT REALLY. I'm not touching Moogle fight ever again.

How's that for "longlasting, drawn-out content"? Your half-assed attempt has made me hate all that is Primal, and made me EXTREMELY biased to any future Primal content you plan to release to the point of not even knowing if I will bother to try it out ONCE. Your retarded developing in this matter along with that idiotic "trick" has exactly the opposite effect of what you were probably planning it to have.

So pat each other on the back and congratulate each other on a "Job DERP done!".

Cheers!

If they are not going to adjust the drop rate on the weapons themselves, id like them to do 3 things:
1. Guaranteed totem/nut drops for each participant that has met requirements and killed Ifrit per run, even if that means adjusting the "price" of the weapons to what ever SE decides is a fair exchange rate. (at least you would have progress you could build towards reliably).

2. No dropping of duplicate weapons you already have. (either just dont drop one or force override another weapon to drop in its place, unless you have them all)

3. Allow us to either make a 1 time exchange through the NPC of one weapon for another, or let us trade in a weapon for half the amount of totems/nuts it would take to purchase the weapon. (something to ensure those of us wanting a weapon, arent stuck with other weapons that stay in storage because we will never use them)

Hope we get a dev response on this sometime soon, kinda starting to loose interest in this and don't exactly look forward to moogle if it's similar kind of thing. Yes it should be hard to get the best DD weapon but doing the same thing over and over isn't hard, it's just tedious.

While I finally got 7/7 on ifrit, I have to agree with the OP. I also understand Antipika's arguement which is, in all likelyhood, completely true. The drop rate still sucks because SE is desperate to keep us using the small amount of content in the game. Darklight gear is also extremely rare to the point it will probably be months before you see complete sets.

My main issue with drops in this game overall is how enslaved they are to the luck of random number generation. Ifrit weapons aren't "hard to get" because of their drop rate nor is Darlight gear, because someone could luck out and get it run 1 while an extremely good player could go 0/100. If you want it to take 100 wins to get a piece of gear, at least make some type of noticeable progress rather than pure bullshit luck. I thought the Ifrit totems and Moogle nut charms were the answer, except they seem almost as rare as the weapons themselves. Honestly every win should = a totem or charm, as I think 70 ifrit wins is enough damn work in for your 7 weapons.

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Originally Posted by Amsai

If they are not going to adjust the drop rate on the weapons themselves, id like them to do 3 things:

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Or make it possible to trade in duplicate/extra/unwanted weapons/totems/nuts for company seals, least that would reward people who keep getting duplicate items with something practical for future content.

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Originally Posted by Themule

I didn't read the whole thread, but I gotta assume that people who did ifrit and got all there weapons long ago probably roll there eyes at threads like this. Do I have all the weapons? Yes. Did it take me 150 + runs? Probably. Did I do way more than half those runs with LS mates who regularly passed totems to each other and, if they had all 7 weapons, ran ifrit to exp crafts and such? Yes. My point is that people who complain about not getting certain drops from ifrit and moogle are, in my opinion, the same people that will never touch those battles again after they get the drop they want. These fights are fun and offer a lot more than just 7 drops. If you have a solid group of friends or a LS that is constantly growing with new people that need to learn how to do the fight and get the weapons too, you should have no problem getting the drops you want eventually. Try beating ifrit in 7 minutes. Try out damaging everyone no matter how long the fight lasts. Try leveling up some DoH and DoL to use the 4-5k exp you get from every battle. Honestly, once you have all the weapons, they loose there luster VERY quickly. If gettng them is the only thing you care about in this game or in these fights, then yes, you probably arent playing the right game....

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Fun is a thing with diminishing returns...do the same thing over and over and the fun in it will decrease, without question, it does happen and there is nothing you can do about it.

I personally got the "luck" that I got no problem with doing the same shit ten thousand times before they really start annoying me, but I can understand other people who don't want to do that.
Plus I took a break from the game between 1.18 and 1.20 so I completely missed the implementation of Ifrit and Moogle. In fact I only killed Ifrit 6 times and Moogle 7 times since I'm back and at least Ifrit wise I lucked out so far(6 Kills, 4 Totems, 1 Claw), Moogle is another story, 7 kills, 1 nut charm...

But yeah, just add weapons to loot list so they can be passed , cause in those 6 runs 2 Bows dropped for members who had it already so they were lost...

I think the best option would be to guarantee a Totem/Nut to everyone in the party every win and have 1 or 2 weapons drop 100% go random in the pockets of two lucky guys.

This way it could take 40 to 70 wins to get all weapons. And 40/70 wins is enough for anyone to be fluent with the battle.

Yes, this is the key point for me: only people who know the fight so well they rarely make mistakes should be 7/7. On the other hand, once someone knows the fight very well, he will feel stupid doing it again and again and get frustrated.

So it should balanced.

so call me crazy. i've just spent ~9 hours kicking ifrits ass. 16 wins out of 17 fights with a few spots of taper grinding / looking for reps in between. and all i've gotten is 37 pieces of dark matter and 2 vampire plants. oh and ~78k exp on my weaver lol.

i do hope they fix the drop rates. it'd be nice to think that in that 10 hours i could have at least gotten enough totems to get 1 weapon.

I didn't see the problem about Primal drop myself .
Since over 100 or maybe 200 runs of Ifrit & Moogle I've done to get all 7/7.

Don't forget that you still got something that called "Totem" & "Nutcharm"
The game now is easy why you demand it to be easier? I don't get it.

IMO , I demand the Totem not to drop in loot list but instantly into inventory to avoid the give to other players , you guys just have to be more patient.

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Originally Posted by Mirana

The game now is easy why you demand it to be easier? I don't get it.

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Asking to fix this horrible drop system, is not asking an easier game... Difficulty is not a matter of time.

Darklight gear drop worse then Primal weapons anyway. So they should fix the primal drop rate already, because people will come and sink in this dungeons content instead :P

Thought, instead of those luck-drop system. honestly nowadays some modern MMO trend is starting with achievement-drop system instead now.

for example :
-Kill Ifrit for the first time => get to choose first weapon.
-Kill Ifrit for 10 times => get to choose second weapon.
-Kill Ifrit for 20 times => get to choose third weapon.
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So the more greedy person will need to work more to get his collections, but it has mile stone to mark there so that he won't lose hope at his mid-way through. and Usually the idea for first kill to give first weapon is basically for a good memento for the first time wining, and also support for casual who not have much time and only do 1 class.

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Originally Posted by Mirana

IMO , I demand the Totem not to drop in loot list but instantly into inventory to avoid the give to other players , you guys just have to be more patient.

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Are you for real? You wanna take this already bullshit system and make it actually worse by not letting us trade totems too?! What part of giving totems to others to help them you don't like exactly? Unless you mean each win = guaranteed 1 totem drop for everyone participating. And even then totems acquired by a 7/7 are still wasted.

And it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with patience. Having to do the same content hundreds of times does not equal patience. It equals lost brain cells and extremely poor development company-wise. Am I impatient because I complain after beating Ifrit 50 times and getting not even 1 weapon to drop? Really?!

And just laugh at your "easier game" comment. Ifrit already becomes easy after the first 10 battles. Fixing his drop system has nothing to do with the fight itself or its' difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Mirana

I didn't see the problem about Primal drop myself .
Since over 100 or maybe 200 runs of Ifrit & Moogle I've done to get all 7/7.

Don't forget that you still got something that called "Totem" & "Nutcharm"
The game now is easy why you demand it to be easier? I don't get it.

IMO , I demand the Totem not to drop in loot list but instantly into inventory to avoid the give to other players , you guys just have to be more patient.

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Ok lets say reading War and Peace is difficult right? Now, imagine you have to read it 100 times. Is it more difficult? No, because you've already read the book and understand what it's about, you know what to expect, and you don't have to re-grasp the same concepts each time. Is it more tedious to read it 100 times? Yes, yes it is. DIFFICULTY IS NOT THE SAME AS TEDIOUS REPETITION!

As for drawing out the content and getting people to help others that still need the fight, SE could do a hundred other things that are less soul crushing and demoralising. They could give GC seals with each fight (making primals a method of seal farming), they could add extra drops besides dark matter (DoH/DoL exp manuals, those Hymn stat reallocation items, MATERIA AND CATALYSTS etc), and if they did make the totems 100% drop rate for people who already have 7/7 weapons they could have some exchange system where you can exchange totems for gil/materia/items etc. Point is they can be clever about this instead of it just being tedious.

Really don't see any problem with current drop rates for Primals. Ifrit can be killed easily under 10mins and Moogle under 20mins. These fights are not hours long, if Ifrit was 1-2hr fight I would expect drop rate to be better. I remember spending months and months camping HNM's for certain items in FF11, maybe even years.

People who are 7/7 and want to turn in tots and nuts for stuff.....Really? You should be passing these to other people in your party in need of them. These items were implemented to balance out the random nature of the drops. They are ment to passed and stacked on 1 party member until he/she gets 10 or 20 and shouldn't serve any other purpose.

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Originally Posted by xCid

Really don't see any problem with current drop rates for Primals. Ifrit can be killed easily under 10mins and Moogle under 20mins. These fights are not hours long, if Ifrit was 1-2hr fight I would expect drop rate to be better. I remember spending months and months camping HNM's for certain items in FF11, maybe even years.

People who are 7/7 and want to turn in tots and nuts for stuff.....Really? You should be passing these to other people in your party in need of them. These items were implemented to balance out the random nature of the drops. They are ment to passed and stacked on 1 party member until he/she gets 10 or 20 and shouldn't serve any other purpose.

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The idea is everyone would gain totem/nut 100% every fight...that's why you could add an exchange system in order to keep people going to the fights since rather than relying on the pure goodness of people's hearts, they'd also have an incentive to keep helping once they hit 7/7.

Also it isn't just 10 minutes. You have to farm the tapers needed and you need an 8 person party. Also fights have a cooldown between re-challenges as well as the fact you need to either anima to Grid between every run or run halfway across the world (this is why to hell with remove anima - although that's another debate).

And if it was just 10 minutes? It still gets tedious after so many repeats due to the pure luck of drops.

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Originally Posted by xCid

Really don't see any problem with current drop rates for Primals.

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Good for you...

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

The idea is everyone would gain totem/nut 100% every fight...that's why you could add an exchange system in order to keep people going to the fights since rather than relying on the pure goodness of people's hearts, they'd also have an incentive to keep helping once they hit 7/7.

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You can get up to 5k exp for any class per fight. That's pretty good incentive, if you really need incentive to help ls mates with these fights. If your 7/7 I don't think your doing pick-up parties?

I don't think SE should be giving us free stuff everytime we think we have something of value in our inventory, when in truth we don't. If your 7/7 and you have a totem in your inventory it's not valuable to you and SE shouldn't be give seals or gil for it.

Theres 8 people on a team, its not 7 people helping 1 guy farm weapons and totems. Weapons are rewarded to a player and totems/nuts are rewarded to the team not individual players and should be distirbuted to the people who need them despite who it falls on.

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Originally Posted by xCid

You can get up to 5k exp for any class per fight. That's pretty good incentive, if you really need incentive to help ls mates with these fights. If your 7/7 I don't think your doing pick-up parties?

I don't think SE should be giving us free stuff everytime we think we have something of value in our inventory, when in truth we don't. If your 7/7 and you have a totem in your inventory it's not valuable to you and SE shouldn't be give seals or gil for it.

Theres 8 people on a team, its not 7 people helping 1 guy farm weapons and totems. Weapons are rewarded to a player and totems/nuts are rewarded to the team not individual players and should be distirbuted to the people who need them despite who it falls on.

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5k exp per fight is only for jobs 45+ and I doubt many people are taking level 45s into the Ifrit fight (even so, I'd say exping is faster). If you're not 45+ you get around 2k per run which is really not an incentive by itself to go do Ifrit. I also find it weird you assume I'm 7/7 on this and unwilling to help ls mates. If there were incentives to do Ifrit beyond 7/7 then people who are 7/7 would maybe do pickups which would only be a good thing I assume?

Why shouldn't SE be giving us things for repeating Ifrit that aren't the weapons? They already give dark matter and vampire plant cuttings. You don't give a reason for why they shouldn't do this.

Finally...everyone gaining at least 1 nut/totem 100% every run = more totems/nuts per person per run than the current passable nuts/totems. Also you assume everyone who does this is doing it in an LS? Are we completely ignoring pickup parties now? If you have a nice ls who's willing to drop everything to spend 10 hours grinding totems/nuts for you that's fantastic but not everyone has that luxury.

I just wish we could move away from being forced to do content over and over again to a point where we *want* to do things like Ifrit again.