fate of emperor varis at the end

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Originally Posted by Nalien

This is going to be the last time I bother repeating myself with this because this is getting absurd; Nobody knows Project Resonant made Zenos immortal...

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This will be the last time I repeat myself. Fordola is the positive test result. She was proven nigh invincible in combat. That alone is enough for the technology to be worth looking into. The idea that The Empire would not know of this completely game-changing technology they themselves funded and researched would be just be proof positive the Empire is hopelessly incompetent.

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Originally Posted by Edax

This will be the last time I repeat myself. Fordola is the positive test result. She was proven nigh invincible in combat. That alone is enough for the technology to be worth looking into. The idea that The Empire would not know of this completely game-changing technology they themselves funded and researched would be just be proof positive the Empire is hopelessly incompetent.

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Not really repeating yourself when you're making a new point, but whatever.

You realize Fordola was never really fielded extensively enough post-Resonant to actually be worth any data, right? One skirmish at Castrum Abania and then she was captured and Project Resonant shut down. Next morning Aulus was dead and Ala Mhigo liberated... "Nigh invincible in combat", yet absolutely nothing came of that. She failed to stop Castrum Abania falling. She failed to defend Project Resonant. She failed to stop Ala Mhigo from being liberated. Those are the results that will reach Garlemald, not that she managed to toy with Lyse briefly in Castrum Abania, before Urianger pulled a deus ex machina out his robe to completely counter her.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

The real question is if Gaius is still alive TBH. He's killed quite a few people who tried to take the throne from Souls and has a vested interest (even more so then Varis) of wanting a well ruled Garlemald. He's also got a better idea of what threat the Ascians really represent and would probably be a lot more willing to work with the Eorzean Alliance to at least stop the Ascians.

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I called it long ago they'll use him as the next leader, he has the all it takes, including a name, evne if he got shamed... has a link to us and the Scions and knows all the truth.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Because it worked and has greater potential than an atom bomb. Immortality. Invincibility. -snip- The success with Fordola alone would warrant this becoming a national priority.

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Originally Posted by Edax

A single soldiers that would be invincible in combat is worth more than 100 conscripts. On top of that, they have cloning technology. This would absolutely be technology worth looking into. The project was bigger than one man, word would have gotten out.

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Originally Posted by Edax

This will be the last time I repeat myself. Fordola is the positive test result. She was proven nigh invincible in combat. That alone is enough for the technology to be worth looking into. The idea that The Empire would not know of this completely game-changing technology they themselves funded and researched would be just be proof positive the Empire is hopelessly incompetent.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Not really repeating yourself when you're making a new point, but whatever.

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It really does paint a pathetic picture of the Empire, when the Warrior of Light ends up more knowledgeable about the Empire's ultimate research data then the Empire does.

Do we have any evidence to suggest that the Empire never received word of Aulus' success? If Varis is willing to resort to using Black Rose, why wouldn't he be willing to have his people use prisoners of war as test subjects to refine the Resonant creation process? I'm quite sure the Empire would pursue this if indeed they got the details.

I have a feeling the next character we play as will be Estinien. And of course we will be saving Gaius during the fight.

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Originally Posted by Anselmet

I have a feeling the next character we play as will be Estinien. And of course we will be saving Gaius during the fight.

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Would much rather play as Gaius saving Gaius during the fight.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Do we have any evidence to suggest that the Empire never received word of Aulus' success? If Varis is willing to resort to using Black Rose, why wouldn't he be willing to have his people use prisoners of war as test subjects to refine the Resonant creation process? I'm quite sure the Empire would pursue this if indeed they got the details.

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For starters things are false until proven true, not the other way around. There shouldn't need to be evidence the Empire never received word about Aulus' experiments, because until we know they did it's more appropriate to operate under the assumption it did not.

That out of the way, Varis probably did know about everything Zenos was doing (note that he was somehow observing our final battle against him in Ala Mhigo), but I find it highly doubtful that information spread beyond him. Something to remember is that the Empire historically took a dim view of Echo users - they viewed them in the same light as the beast tribes (no doubt because they posed a great threat to Emet-Selch's plans) - and it's only due to Zenos' iconoclasm Resonance was developed. Varis laughed Aulus out of court.

Despite that, it's unlikely the rest of the Empire has all the details and schematics and such to reproduce the Resonatorium elsewhere, and Aulus' research notes were left in Ala Mhigo (and probably not copied). There's also the issue of not having an Echo user to copy off of. It's also implied that there's a low success rate of the procedure, and while it provides advantages, those advantages can be negated... and, again, nobody was aware Zenos would become for most intents and purposes immortal because of it.

If they had Aulus' research notes maybe they could research and refine it... but those were left behind in Ala Mhigo, so...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

, nobody was aware Zenos would become for most intents and purposes immortal because of it..

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Apparently technological immortality is just that easy to develop. Accidently.
And apparently technological immortality is just that easy to be lost. Because only one guy worked on it apparently.

I highly doubt he survived or will be coming back. He was interfering with Zenos's sick and twisted game and choosing in Zenos's words a coward's way of dealing with the enemy was detestable and unforgivable, Zenos would've ensured his death was ultimate even if he was his own father. His taste of death and returning from it has further deepened his psychosis on a much more darker level, I dare say he's more darker than Lord Vauthry and Emet-Selch put together. We are in for a very chilling battle when we face him off a 2nd time.

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Originally Posted by Edax

This will be the last time I repeat myself. Fordola is the positive test result. She was proven nigh invincible in combat. That alone is enough for the technology to be worth looking into. The idea that The Empire would not know of this completely game-changing technology they themselves funded and researched would be just be proof positive the Empire is hopelessly incompetent.

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From what I recall other there's been other test subjects but they were unsuccessful, Fordola is their most successful test subject next to Zenos however she is also suffering immensely due to not being able to tune out all the voices of everyone who's suffered. The facility that gave her the gift was taken over by rebels so any research would now also be in rebel hands, plus they also needed prisoners already possessed of the gift in order to use the facility in the first place and since everyone with the gift are members of the Scions they haven't had any luck in capturing any more prisoners possessed of the gift as of yet. Since their war efforts were being spent on the production of the Black Rose toxin they've not had the time or manpower to devote a team into creating super soldiers. Varis was just as eager as the Ascians to bring about the next calamity under the pretense that he would be spared and become part of the new world.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Apparently technological immortality is just that easy to develop. Accidently.
And apparently technological immortality is just that easy to be lost. Because only one guy worked on it apparently.

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These are the people who know Zenos is nigh immortal(We will kill him eventually just when):

1. Elidibus
2. Varis
3. Estinien
4. Gauis
5. Zenos

So how was Garlemald suppose to know they had created a near immortal being(and who is to say the other experiments Varis had used on Zenos didn't have any effect) when their leader and a deserter are the only 2 garleans besides Zenos who know so from anyone looking at the Resonant project they would deem it a failure.

A failure until Zenos makes a proclamation, he may very well ask the project be resumed in a way to make himself more powerful to fight us and once people see what it can produce, curiosity will take over and others will try and get it for themselves(Immortality is a high reward people would be willing to pay for) so right now the Resonant project could fade away or be brought back in the limelight who knows at this point except the writers/Yoshi.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

These are the people who know Zenos is nigh immortal(We will kill him eventually just when):

1. Elidibus
2. Varis
3. Estinien
4. Gauis
5. Zenos

So how was Garlemald suppose to know they had created a near immortal being(and who is to say the other experiments Varis had used on Zenos didn't have any effect) when their leader and a deserter are the only 2 garleans besides Zenos who know so from anyone looking at the Resonant project they would deem it a failure.

A failure until Zenos makes a proclamation, he may very well ask the project be resumed in a way to make himself more powerful to fight us and once people see what it can produce, curiosity will take over and others will try and get it for themselves(Immortality is a high reward people would be willing to pay for) so right now the Resonant project could fade away or be brought back in the limelight who knows at this point except the writers/Yoshi.

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Because creating technology that makes people immortal shouldn't be accidental. It's a ridiculous concept. On top of that, creating revolutionary technology shouldn't be handled by a single man. It's a ridiculous concept. On top of that, this one man was being lavished with funds by the Empire and had large custom built equipment so the idea that only the head researcher would know anything is a ridiculous concept. The idea that none of the staff working on the project had to file any reports or make any effort to preserve their data on their revolutionary technology that the Empire was paying for is a ridiculous concept. And the idea that the only people who know about their own revolutionary technology be the "enemy" is absolutely ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by geekgirl101

From what I recall other there's been other test subjects but they were unsuccessful, Fordola is their most successful test subject next to Zenos however she is also suffering immensely due to not being able to tune out all the voices of everyone who's suffered. The facility that gave her the gift was taken over by rebels so any research would now also be in rebel hands, plus they also needed prisoners already possessed of the gift in order to use the facility in the first place and since everyone with the gift are members of the Scions they haven't had any luck in capturing any more prisoners possessed of the gift as of yet. Since their war efforts were being spent on the production of the Black Rose toxin they've not had the time or manpower to devote a team into creating super soldiers. Varis was just as eager as the Ascians to bring about the next calamity under the pretense that he would be spared and become part of the new world.

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In the logic of the story, that makes sense, however using common sense the scenario is completely ham-fisted. The Empire apparently could make people immortal, but apparently didn't know about it. The Empire could make super-soldiers, but apparently didn't care about it. They had one man working on the most important technological advancement the Empire has ever seen and apparently nobody thought to try and preserve his research data at any point during the project. The Empire's gimmick is technology, so to see this scenario where they invent the most awesome thing ever while also not caring even slightly about while also letting the "enemy" get a hold of it comes off as very poor writing.

Also I'm not sure the logic that the Empire doesn't have the manpower or that Black Rose requires a great deal of manpower holds up.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Apparently technological immortality is just that easy to develop. Accidently.
And apparently technological immortality is just that easy to be lost. Because only one guy worked on it apparently.

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Unexpected results do happen.

Given as Zenos probably only started developing Resonance after getting to Ala Mhigo (he was inspired by Gaius' reports), and the project was an extension of Aulus' brainchild, I seriously doubt the rest of the Empire knows about what they were doing (except for Varis). Aulus was lambasted by the Imperial court except for Zenos. While Aulus did have assistants, it's pretty unlikely his research reports and notes were received by the greater Empire because they thought he was a crackpot and as far as we know his attempts at genetic modification were unsuccessful.

... and again nobody, not even Elidibus, even considered that his Resonance would give Zenos Ascian-style immortality or was aware that had happened until he attacked the Imperial palace. Even Zenos himself was surprised.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Unexpected results do happen.

Given as Zenos probably only started developing Resonance after getting to Ala Mhigo (he was inspired by Gaius' reports), and the project was an extension of Aulus' brainchild, I seriously doubt the rest of the Empire knows about what they were doing (except for Varis). Aulus was lambasted by the Imperial court except for Zenos. While Aulus did have assistants, it's pretty unlikely his research reports and notes were received by the greater Empire because they thought he was a crackpot and as far as we know his attempts at genetic modification were unsuccessful.

... and again nobody, not even Elidibus, even considered that his Resonance would give Zenos Ascian-style immortality or was aware that had happened until he attacked the Imperial palace. Even Zenos himself was surprised.

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I can't for The Bismarck restaurant to accidently cook a hot dog capable of destroying Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I can't for The Bismarck restaurant to accidently cook a hot dog capable of destroying Zodiark.

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https://media1.giphy.com/media/6UD4GFX0shFwA/giphy.gif
No matter how implausible or improbable, this statement is always technically true.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I can't for The Bismarck restaurant to accidently cook a hot dog capable of destroying Zodiark.

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Given a sufficient amount of aether it should be possible to create a Bismarck Hot Dog of Light combined with Hydaelyn's Sundering capabilities to smash Zodiark until he is too dispersed to maintain existent and just fizzles out. If we could also find, or make, some primal with an inherent ability to siphon energy from enemy targets to mix in with this then we could create something that would basically sunder the target, take the aether of the split off part to sustain the constant smashing till enemy existence failure.

Much like the Dividing Gear from High School DxD. Which could literally divide enemies out of existence and every time it divides the enemy it steals one of the halves of the divided energy.

It would not be the first time a joke weapon was the ultimate weapon in a game.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Given a sufficient amount of aether it should be possible to create a Bismarck Hot Dog of Light combined with Hydaelyn's Sundering capabilities to smash Zodiark until he is too dispersed to maintain existent and just fizzles out. If we could also find, or make, some primal with an inherent ability to siphon energy from enemy targets to mix in with this then we could create something that would basically sunder the target, take the aether of the split off part to sustain the constant smashing till enemy existence failure.

Much like the Dividing Gear from High School DxD. Which could literally divide enemies out of existence and every time it divides the enemy it steals one of the halves of the divided energy.

It would not be the first time a joke weapon was the ultimate weapon in a game.

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What a way to end a storyline...

https://i.imgur.com/WsAwxov.jpg

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Originally Posted by Edax

What a way to end a storyline...

https://i.imgur.com/WsAwxov.jpg

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That's heck of a hotdog tho...



soo hungryyy

Trouble is, that might become the hotdog that ended the world. If the first sundering of Zodiark split the world into its many shards, what would happen if you split him to the point of complete dissolution?

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Trouble is, that might become the hotdog that ended the world. If the first sundering of Zodiark split the world into its many shards, what would happen if you split him to the point of complete dissolution?

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I think that is the question no one is asking about the sundering’s supposed “benefits” to supporting life.

On the topic of the Garleans' raging incompetence, whether Aulus's project went relatively unnoticed depends on a lot of factors that we currently don't know.

I think we can agree that Zenos had little interest in sharing Aulus's research. The question, then, is why the Empire was willing to fund those projects. This depends a lot on how tight the Empire's purse strings are. If times are not lean (and the Empire's runaway military success prior to running into Eorzea could well mean their pockets are currently quite fat), it could well be that Zenos's rank alone was enough to get him all the funding he needed - or, at least get it with a minimum of fuss. His budget report might include, for instance, a line reading, "Aether manipulation and Echo Research - 200,000,000,000 gil". Varis is presented with it, rolls his eyes at his son's quirky hobbies, and mashes it with the "APPROVED" stamp. His son's keeping the peace, Varis is willing to indulge these little side projects to keep the guy satisfied with his lot.

If purse strings are tighter, the research could be something Varis is outright keeping hidden, lying to Aulus about one day showing the world his work, while privately intending to keep it for his own purposes. It's impossible to say how much of Aulus's equipment is standard-issue Garlean tech that's been re-purposed and modified for his research.

Those are reasons why the Empire would have few details about the research, while simultaneously allowing it to continue. It is incompetence, in a way - the same kind of incompetence which is inherent to any totalitarian rule. If a leader gets an idea in their head, there aren't many with the authorization to tell him "no". Also remember that this research is relatively recent. It would not have begun until after Zenos assumed control of Ala Mhigo, which was about five years ago. Aulus could have been doing work before that, as well, but it's stuff no one took seriously. There may be papers around someone could dredge up, if they bothered to look.

So, after the project succeeded in creating immortal super-soldiers, why didn't the word get out? As others have mentioned, too, immortality was not an intended and expected goal, and by the time anyone learned it could be a result the project had been dismantled by the rebels - and given the horrific nature of the experiments, chances are high they destroyed what they could find of the research, as well. The aforementioned scattered papers are likely all that remains of Aulus's work, and as his theories were in their infancy at that point, they likely would not provide much help in restarting the project. Plus, the only folks around who KNOW about the immortality are Varis, Elidibus, Zenos, Estinien, and Gaius - none of whom have much incentive to get the ball rolling again.

And what about the runaway success of Fordola? Again, as others have mentioned - WHAT success? She had one successful brawl with Lyse. The soldiers present might have been impressed by her performance, but unless they knew she was augmented AND managed to escape with that knowledge, we once again are reliant on Zenos's reports to the Empire to fill them in on any details. He'd also need to leave out mention of Fordola's string of failures, including the fact that the Alliance managed to completely undermine Fordola's Resonance - and that's if he was trying to IMPRESS the folks at home, which doesn't sound very Zenos-like at all. Aulus was likely thrilled, if he got word, but whether he was allowed to brag about it depends on how firmly Zenos has him under wraps.

At no point in the storyline was the Resonance shown to be a success. Only two "super soldiers" were successfully created, Fordola and Zenos. The former's performance was not stellar (and she's now suffering from Echo-induced guilt trips strong enough to make her question her loyalty to Garlemald), and the latter is Zenos, who is such a monster that he's ALREADY pretty much a super soldier. Indeed, the only talents he seemed to gain were the ability to control a Primal (which he did once, purely in order to play with his beloved frenemy, the WoL), and his immortality (which, again, no one knew about until the most recent cutscenes in the game).

tl'dr: the project was Zenos's baby, and he had little reason to share his baby with anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I think that is the question no one is asking about the sundering’s supposed “benefits” to supporting life.

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I think that the prevailing popular theory on the forums is that the only benefit the Sundering brings to supporting life is that it removes Zodiark from the equation. Apart from Zodiark, there's strong indicators that the Sundering was HARMFUL to existing life, since it apparently removed the memories of all affected (a fate many consider akin to death).

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Originally Posted by Edax

At the same time, they have the technology to become immortal. Who wouldn't want to be involved? What's stopping the artificial echo from being distributed to every high ranking member of the Empire?

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They would need echo users first to extract that. The chamber was full of death bodies so I do believe that it wont be that easy to give. Also we dont know if the ability to control that form of echo is always that great or if Zenos was just that good with that.

In regards to funding, the most likely answer to how Zenos was able to get it under the noses of the Imperial government is... that he got the money for it through taxes. It's already been established that the Imperial government doesn't do a whole lot of oversight of the provincial territories, as evidenced by the VIth being needed to clean up Dalmasca and the horrible treatment of the Domans and Ala Mhigans. Zenos was also known to be taxing his territories rather heavily (probably part of his scheme to stir up rebellions, but the funds had to go somewhere).

Alternatively they're all given R&D budgets without government oversight. "You get [X] gil for R&D, develop some military stuff. We'll have a yearly review, or something."

Ahem. While it's a natural conclusion to jump to, there's nothing really proving their memories were erased in the Sundering. There's been 12,000+ years of historical drift to account for the truth being erased and distorted from common memory. According to Elidibus the truth being hidden was intentional, but whether this was (another) byproduct of the Sundering or something that (intentionally) happened afterwards is unknown. Either way, it doesn't seem to be a danger to life per sé, it just dilutes the aetherial volume of the Source. (And rejoinings don't increase it, since that energy is sent to Zodiark to help him break free.)

That said, actually killing Zodiark would probably kill the planet as a consequence, much the same as sundering him sundered the planet and those living on it.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

According to Elidibus the truth being hidden was intentional, but whether this was (another) byproduct of the Sundering or something that (intentionally) happened afterwards is unknown.

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I'm fully expecting the Twelve to be involved with this, pretty much the moment ruins in Tempest came into play, solely off the Thalaos sightseeing log ("one of the legendary twin sea serpents believed to have been unleashed by the Navigator, Llymlaen, at the dawn of eras to fill the empty seas (the other being Perykos)"). I can't help but read that as "Llymlaen flooded Amaurot to keep it hidden", although an entirely alternative reading could be that Llymlaen was an Ascian and this legend is more of a clean up attempt after the Terminus event, only two reasons I can think to "fill the empty seas", actually I guess Eden gives us a third with our twin headed Leviathan... Still, for now I'm very much leaning towards the idea that Llymlaen flooded Amaurot in order to hide it and the truth, it just fits nicely... Potentially even unleashing their own creations to do so, Akadaemia Anyder had plenty of fish, including twin street sharks...

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Trouble is, that might become the hotdog that ended the world. If the first sundering of Zodiark split the world into its many shards, what would happen if you split him to the point of complete dissolution?

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Given that the story is more or less set to end with Zodiark's complete defeat if that was the case then there would be no talks of a season 2 story after the current one is done.

Though that very problem you mention may be why Hydaelyn held off on smashing Zodiark completely in the initial sundering. It may just be that she has been working to unravel him from the world which opens him up to being truly defeated and her purpose of safeguarding life from him completed.

Zodiark's story ending with him being destroyed would be a rather bland conclusion as far as I'm concerned. I'd be happy if both Zodiark and Hydaelyn were put to the sword, though. Or at least forced to exist in equilibrium.

At least then they can actually do something with the 'balance' introduced to the story that has yet to amount to anything substantial.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

On the topic of the Garleans' raging incompetence, whether Aulus's project went relatively unnoticed depends on a lot of factors that we currently don't know.

I think we can agree that Zenos had little interest in sharing Aulus's research. The question, then, is why the Empire was willing to fund those projects. This depends a lot on how tight the Empire's purse strings are. If times are not lean (and the Empire's runaway military success prior to running into Eorzea could well mean their pockets are currently quite fat), it could well be that Zenos's rank alone was enough to get him all the funding he needed - or, at least get it with a minimum of fuss. His budget report might include, for instance, a line reading, "Aether manipulation and Echo Research - 200,000,000,000 gil". Varis is presented with it, rolls his eyes at his son's quirky hobbies, and mashes it with the "APPROVED" stamp. His son's keeping the peace, Varis is willing to indulge these little side projects to keep the guy satisfied with his lot.

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Didn't Zenos fund the project personally? He might not have to make any such reports if all the money is coming out of his own coffers.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I'm fully expecting the Twelve to be involved with this, pretty much the moment ruins in Tempest came into play, solely off the Thalaos sightseeing log ("one of the legendary twin sea serpents believed to have been unleashed by the Navigator, Llymlaen, at the dawn of eras to fill the empty seas (the other being Perykos)"). I can't help but read that as "Llymlaen flooded Amaurot to keep it hidden", although an entirely alternative reading could be that Llymlaen was an Ascian and this legend is more of a clean up attempt after the Terminus event, only two reasons I can think to "fill the empty seas", actually I guess Eden gives us a third with our twin headed Leviathan... Still, for now I'm very much leaning towards the idea that Llymlaen flooded Amaurot in order to hide it and the truth, it just fits nicely... Potentially even unleashing their own creations to do so, Akadaemia Anyder had plenty of fish, including twin street sharks...

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I would offer a different theory. Consider for a moment that the ruins of Amaurot existing on the First also mean they exist on the Source, albeit likely pounded to dust in current times after the repeated Ascian-induced calamities. Who is to say some primitive culture did not discover those ruins at some point after the sundering and before numerous cataclysms buried the past? It could well be that symbols found in the ruins of the Ancients' civilization gave rise to what would eventually be recognized as The Twelve.

Our understanding of The Twelve is that they are essentially just glorified primals. Possessing no lives or wills of their own; their objectives, abilities, personalities, and even appearances are shaped entirely by the beliefs of those whose prayers gave them life.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Zodiark's story ending with him being destroyed would be a rather bland conclusion as far as I'm concerned. I'd be happy if both Zodiark and Hydaelyn were put to the sword, though. Or at least forced to exist in equilibrium.

At least then they can actually do something with the 'balance' introduced to the story that has yet to amount to anything substantial.

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Every time I get Praetorium in MSQ roulette I'm reminded of this plot point and how nothing has came of it so far. Laha and Elidibus have both justified their actions as maintaining the balance between Light and Dark, which doesn't exactly seem truthful considering how weak Hydaelyn has become and not to mention they are Ascians, the servants of the Dark.

The fact that this wasn't mentioned once in Shadowbringers by Emet makes me think that the writers changed their mind and decided to abandon the idea. If we defeat Zodiark, it may well end up being handwaved as Ascian lies.

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Originally Posted by Kokomi

Every time I get Praetorium in MSQ roulette I'm reminded of this plot point and how nothing has came of it so far. Laha and Elidibus have both justified their actions as maintaining the balance between Light and Dark, which doesn't exactly seem truthful considering how weak Hydaelyn has become and not to mention they are Ascians, the servants of the Dark.

The fact that this wasn't mentioned once in Shadowbringers by Emet makes me think that the writers changed their mind and decided to abandon the idea. If we defeat Zodiark, it may well end up being handwaved as Ascian lies.

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The only mention of the balance at all, to my knowledge, was made in regards to what happens if the scales tip significantly in favor of one attribute. No mention at all about Ascians seeking to maintain a balance.

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Originally Posted by Kokomi

Every time I get Praetorium in MSQ roulette I'm reminded of this plot point and how nothing has came of it so far. Laha and Elidibus have both justified their actions as maintaining the balance between Light and Dark, which doesn't exactly seem truthful considering how weak Hydaelyn has become and not to mention they are Ascians, the servants of the Dark.

The fact that this wasn't mentioned once in Shadowbringers by Emet makes me think that the writers changed their mind and decided to abandon the idea. If we defeat Zodiark, it may well end up being handwaved as Ascian lies.

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Ascians only care about Balance on the source which needs to not get turned into a void. They want the shards to be unbalanced but not to the point of flood for the rejoinings to work.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Our understanding of The Twelve is that they are essentially just glorified primals. Possessing no lives or wills of their own; their objectives, abilities, personalities, and even appearances are shaped entirely by the beliefs of those whose prayers gave them life.

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Correction: That is the GARLEANS understanding of The Twelve, and fervent atheist Gaius is only too happy to arrogantly pronounce "YOUR GODDO IS SHIIIIIIT!!!". The residents of Eorzea, on the other hand, consider them to be real and true gods - including learned and respected individuals such as Louisoix. And we as players? The jury is still out. Certainly it's possible to fashion a primal in the SHAPE of one of the Twelve - but that doesn't mean that the Twelve cannot be real deities, as well. Shiva was a real person, but that didn't stop Ysayle from creating her Primal. Same with the Allagan Commander Garuda.

This is a fantasy world, and honest-to-god (pun intended) deities are a possibility that is always on the table. I give about even odds that the game eventually gives a "mundane origin story" that reveals that the Twelve are just legends of long-gone real people, or that they instead leave them mysterious and inscrutable for the entire lifetime of the game (e.g., "Are they real? YOU decide!").

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Ascians only care about Balance on the source which needs to not get turned into a void. They want the shards to be unbalanced but not to the point of flood for the rejoinings to work.

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I was talking about this speech from Lahabrea:

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The growing imbalance afflicting the planet must be redressed. If it is permitted to worsen, the very laws of existence - both aetheric and physical - will be warped beyond all recognition. Know you the root of this corruption? Hydaelyn! Like a parasite, She must be burned out if the planet is to recover.

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In retrospect, he seems to be implying that Hydaelyn is the one that is tipping the balance of the elements when we know that it is the Ascians who are doing this to create rejoinings. Of course we could also just dismiss this as the rantings of a crazed Ascian.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Correction: That is the GARLEANS understanding of The Twelve

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Louisoix had the same belief.

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Originally Posted by Kokomi

In retrospect, he seems to be implying that Hydaelyn is the one that is tipping the balance of the elements when we know that it is the Ascians who are doing this to create rejoinings. Of course we could also just dismiss this as the rantings of a crazed Ascian.

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Lahabrea was definitely nuts, but it's most likely too early to dismiss his claims entirely. Things like that generally have at least a grain of truth buried somewhere amidst the refuse. We've already seen what can happen when the scales tip too far in favor of Light. What's more, it is implied on multiple occasions that the Source was headed for the same fate because of the Warrior of Light. While we can't ascertain whether or not it was intentional (my guess is not since she sent Minfilia to save the First from their Flood of Light), it does appear Hydaelyn was putting the Source at risk by constantly compelling (or entreating, for those that don't subscribe to the possibility of there being some level of tempering at play) her champion to fight.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Lahabrea was definitely nuts, but it's most likely too early to dismiss his claims entirely. Things like that generally have at least a grain of truth buried somewhere amidst the refuse. We've already seen what can happen when the scales tip too far in favor of Light. What's more, it is implied on multiple occasions that the Source was headed for the same fate because of the Warrior of Light. While we can't ascertain whether or not it was intentional (my guess is not since she sent Minfilia to save the First from their Flood of Light), it does appear Hydaelyn was putting the Source at risk by constantly compelling (or entreating, for those that don't subscribe to the possibility of there being some level of tempering at play) her champion to fight.

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Logically though, it makes no sense for Lahabrea to explain all this to the person he intends to immediately kill if it were true.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Logically though, it makes no sense for Lahabrea to explain all this to the person he intends to immediately kill if it were true.

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He told us because he was about to kill us. There's no harm in mouthing off at someone about to die.

Lahabrea was a villain, after all, and they love hearing the sound of their own voices.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Louisoix had the same belief.



Lahabrea was definitely nuts, but it's most likely too early to dismiss his claims entirely. Things like that generally have at least a grain of truth buried somewhere amidst the refuse. We've already seen what can happen when the scales tip too far in favor of Light. What's more, it is implied on multiple occasions that the Source was headed for the same fate because of the Warrior of Light. While we can't ascertain whether or not it was intentional (my guess is not since she sent Minfilia to save the First from their Flood of Light), it does appear Hydaelyn was putting the Source at risk by constantly compelling (or entreating, for those that don't subscribe to the possibility of there being some level of tempering at play) her champion to fight.

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That putting the source at the same risk was probably far more the Ascians fault than Hydaelyns. Remember the lesson on rejoinings, when a shard is overly abundant with aether of a specific alignment, it begins to bleed off that aether straight to the source. A lot of the phenomena witnessed in the source pre ShB was directly referenced and attributed to the First bleeding over Light infused aether to the Source.

Given that the flood seems to have been an accident, it makes full sense that Elidibus would be concerned that your successes in addition to the light being bled over would be putting the source at risk, and thus wishes to correct that issue, either by your death, or by ushering in the rejoining via calamity. He has tried doing both a few times.

By fixing the first, we should also be correcting the imbalance on the source. Obviously not in the way the Ascians want it, and Elidibus clearly seems fixated on killing the WoL considering he's prioritizing that over dealing with the latest and probably greatest complication to his plan, Zenos, but the balance should be brought back in line enough to prevent a flood on the source.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

We've already seen what can happen when the scales tip too far in favor of Light. What's more, it is implied on multiple occasions that the Source was headed for the same fate because of the Warrior of Light. While we can't ascertain whether or not it was intentional, it does appear Hydaelyn was putting the Source at risk by constantly compelling her champion to fight.

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I think those implications that "Hydaelyn's command to fight the Ascians is putting the Source at risk" were a result of what we previously understood from the WoD arc: they killed the Ascian overlord of their world and triggered the flood, therefore if we did the same thing here, the same thing would happen.

The truth as shown in Shadowbringers is considerably different. The flood and the imbalance that caused it were due to Ascian meddling in the first place, and the balance tipped over the edge because they failed to account for how Ardbert would react.

The destabilising of aether on the Source was due to the Ascians meddling on the First, not a disconnected sign that something was wrong with the Source because of our heroic actions.

Perhaps most importantly, the Ascians aren't some supernatural embodiment of Darkness (as we might have previously assumed), without which the world will be overrun by Light. They're just people, in the end, however powerful they are.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Louisoix had the same belief.

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Where is there any evidence of that? The guy had the symbol of Thaliak on his staff - that's a pretty strong indicator that he is a religious man.

Louisoix DID recognize the danger of the peoples' prayers and the high levels of Aether in accidentally summoning Primal versions of the Twelve during Bahamut's descent - but that in no way indicates that he believes the Twelve are not gods. The leaders of Eorzea recognized a similar danger when the dissidents at Ala Mhigo were planning on summoning a Primal version of Rhalgr - and even Gaius himself believes that those leaders believe in the Twelve (hence why they are weak, "looking for guidance from a higher power").

Understanding that prayers and aether can bring a Primal into being does not mean that one cannot have faith in gods. All it means is that one recognizes that false gods - primals - can be created in the likenesses of the true gods, and that such a thing should be avoided.

Gaius believes that there are no true gods, that they are nothing more than legends upon which Primals can be constructed. Because of this, he felt that atheism - specifically, having the people put faith into strong rulers rather than nebulous and ethereal gods - would put an end to the Primal menace (and, indeed, this was a tenet of the Garlean empire in general). Unfortunately, this is not the case. Faith doesn't need to be toward a god to produce a Primal - the existence of Eureka, a Primal created by the Allagans' faith in SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY, shows that this is not true. Faith toward a strong ruler would be no different - with enough devotion, there's no reason why a people couldn't wind up summoning a Primal version of their glorious leader.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Where is there any evidence of that?

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https://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/anni...?rgn=na&lng=en Right here. Louisoix clearly states his opinion on the Twelve in this entry.

There is zero evidence at this time of actual gods existing within the world of FFXIV. The one entity that was originally presented in a manner that all but confirmed its godhood has been revealed as just an excessively powerful primal. Even the Kami are shown to be little more than the product of aether and belief.