BRD still has group utility from Battle Voice and Wardens' Paean and they're also better at dealing AoE damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selig07
They're definitely harder to play due to their rotation being dynamic with a heavy RNG component, while MCH has no RNG whatsoever now and follows a very static rotation for the most part.
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07-30-2019, 04:54 PMKageTokage
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07-30-2019, 05:03 PMTcomJEvery 3 min that you yourself don't get buff and 20% DH for 15 sec don't do much.Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
Also for Warden Pean, it's on a single target with barely any use in Raid because most of the boss debuff or aliment cannot be removed often time. This has been the case since 2.0.
So don't over-exaggerate our utility much. It's near non-existent. -
07-30-2019, 05:47 PMSaitoHikari
I suspect we didn't get any Bard changes because the devs want to see how the remaining Bards fare this raid tier. We have a history of the slightest change skyrocketing us into broken tier, so it kind of makes sense to wait a bit longer. Touch our proc rates or give us charges on Bloodletter/Refulgent especially, and who knows how much it'll push up our damage output in actual practice.
Even as useless as most people might think of Bard now, I daresay the top level Bards that remain are likely still over-performing beyond SE's expectations. -
07-30-2019, 05:55 PMTcomJQuote:
Originally Posted by SaitoHikari
I get it, but all they have to do is.
1) Bring back FR with instant cast.
2) Put FR in place of Apex Arrow. They didn't even bother rescale it.
3) Once three songs are played in cycle, give buffs to whole party DH% for 20 sec.
4) Change BV into DET% from DH% at 120 sec instead of 180.
5) Nature's mine cooldown reverted back to SB.
That's all they have to do. -
07-30-2019, 06:14 PMSaitoHikariDid you really think this through?Quote:
Originally Posted by TcomJ
1) Foe Req: Well, okay.
2) It takes about 80 seconds to cycle through all three songs. 1/4 DH buff uptime is pretty overkill.
3) Determination buff on top of the above at 120 seconds is even more overkill
4) Nature's Minne: Well, okay.
But really, going off of your suggestions, I imagine that depending on percentages, Bard party contribution could easily pass Dancer (who is mostly focused on a single target, and whose contribution sinks like a rock if their dance partner dies at any point), considering these are all party-wide. It's worth noting that today, most DPS classes only have one buff/debuff that affects party members. Asking for Bard to have 3/4 with such short cooldowns in this new environment is something that SE won't do.
(Also, I mean no offense, but saying 'that's all they have to do' and then listing 5 steps is something I found hilarious.) -
07-30-2019, 06:20 PMTcomJQuote:
Originally Posted by SaitoHikari
Cycle through songs is 90 sec, and BV is already 180 sec cooldown with DH% that Bard player itself don't get the buff. You have to play 3 songs to get one party wide buff, not constantly get buff for entire 90 sec. The % and duration can be adjusted accordingly obviously.
Also, both DH and Det will never surpass direct damage buff and crit buff on other jobs. So 120sec is fair.
Stacking buff, should ask DNC about that. Because if you read the buff synergy abilities for each class, DNC has like 5-6 of them over all and 3 of them are already partywide. And they are the new job, why the fuck do Bard has to lose our things for a new job anyway. -
07-30-2019, 06:31 PMSaitoHikari
The thing that makes me hesitant to really go with your suggestions, and I say this as an Ultimate cleared Bard, is that I've noted that raid teams are already talking about ditching Dancer in general and taking Bard for progression/speedkill. The reasoning being that Dancer contribution is only as good as the rest of the party's performance, and their personal DPS is too low for their support to make up for it. Indeed, data from a certain site suggested that overall, Bard total contribution actually outpaced Dancer total contribution, and we came dangerously close to touching Machinist contribution anyway.
All this, despite the supposed newbie trap clunkiness of Bard (not having Bloodletter stacks even though we lose so many procs in dungeons while AoEing in Mage's Ballad, Apex Arrow's wonky tooltip and that it feels bad to use in general, Refulgent not having stacks when there are situations where it would double-proc, especially when it's time to Iron Jaws) and the gutting of our support.
I imagine THAT is probably the real reason why all three ranged DPS didn't really get any changes this tier besides a small adjustment for MCH. The devs want to see how all three ranged perform relative to each other in a serious raid tier, before committing to any major adjustments so early. -
07-30-2019, 06:45 PMHyoMinParkWrong. Your song rotation is 80 seconds: 30-30-20 with only deviating in very niche, usually fight-specific instances. Normal rotation is to clip the last 10 seconds of Army's to re-enter Minuet the moment RS comes off cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by TcomJ
What? DNC doesn't have 3 buffs that are raid-wide. It has Standard Finish, which is 100% uptime on 1 person, and Technical Finish, which is 20s of +5% damage for the entire party every 120s. The only other party-wide they have are:Quote:
Stacking buff, should ask DNC about that. Because if you read the buff synergy abilities for each class, DNC has like 5-6 of them over all and 3 of them are already partywide. And they are the new job, why the fuck do Bard has to lose our things for a new job anyway.
- Shield Samba, which is the same as Troubadour
- Curing Waltz, if people stack for it within the 3y radius around the DNC/their partner; it heals for 200 potency on the DNC and their partner, so 400 if stacked
- Improvisation, which is used ONLY during downtime as it requires the DNC to not move a la Meditation on SAM (and it's a healing potency buff, not a damage buff) -
07-31-2019, 01:27 AMNeelaBrd & DnC were soooo great in RO - I always hoped for combo-skills in FF14 as well, Brds deserve to keep their utility, raping them was super silly... They should remove Trick Attack from Ninja and give a similar skill to Brd -> than introduce combos like in RO - Brd songs could increase DnC dances fe. u could play with job traits as well. There are so many ways to keep Brd supportive instead of killing his lore for another cls...Quote:
Originally Posted by TcomJ
Ragnarok Online did it 1000 times better... at least in this regard SE could learn a thing or two of oldschool mmos... Ninja could get a touch of Assassin Cross as well give them an Enchant Poison buff in return for TA.
Edit: did u play on chaos or loki? and do u miss a game mode like War of Emperium just like i do? :P -
07-31-2019, 03:23 AMRikuGxYes gimme dat EDP!Quote:
Originally Posted by Neela
And Soul Breaker while were at it, a kind of Meteor Assault i already got xD
And please some usable Katars (i cried when i saw monks having em...absolutly illfit for monks animations) -
07-31-2019, 03:31 AMRadicalPesto
People sure love to exaggerate how much bard has changed because it lost one (boring, uninteractive) passive buff and foe requiem (which was designed in an unpleasant to use manner). Like I've seen people make wild claims such as dancer far surpassing bard in terms of DPS (dancer is inferior to bard by every raid dps metric) or machinist doing so much more dps than bard (the difference is quite small) when the only thing the class lacks now is some musical flavor it had in Stormblood, and even then, bard presses way more music-themed skills now per minute than it did in Heavensward.
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07-31-2019, 04:57 AMSelig07Quote:
Originally Posted by RadicalPesto
Still stands that Machinist does more rDPS and Dancer provides more group support... Goes back to my previous post last night, what is the point of playing a Bard right now, aside from just liking the style/theme of it? -
07-31-2019, 07:20 AMRadicalPestoThe game is balanced enough for you to play what you like, Bard is one of the jobs with the least to complain about, given that its current problem is almost purely one of flavor (and the flavor is still better than it has been for most of the job's existence, songs being a frequent part of your rotation is superior to how much you wanted to avoid them in heavensward and a realm reborn for the most part). Both Dancer and Machinist currently have more pressing design issues than Bard does, with Dancer being a numerically underwhelming class whose support still puts it at the bottom of the raid dps hierarchy, and Machinist being atrocious to play for American East Coast players due to hypercharge windows. Would I like more flavor on bard? Sure, for example, it would've been nice if instead of simply deleting foe requiem, they instead gave its animation, name and icon to Raging Strikes (a totally non-flavorful skill where you just strike a pose to do more damage), and I would prefer it if Warden's Paean was more impactful and Battle Voice was a lot more frequent in our rotation... but otherwise, Bard doesn't have many major gameplay or balance issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selig07
They seriously need to change the gauge sound for Apex Arrow though. -
07-31-2019, 04:54 PMSaitoHikariPretty much.Quote:
Originally Posted by RadicalPesto
Like a fair amount of us expected, the teams that have already cleared this savage raid tier actually took Bards along with no Dancer in sight. Dancer isn't anywhere near as gamebreaking as the community is making it out to be. -
08-01-2019, 02:46 AMTcomJhttps://i.redd.it/gfk2chxgn7331.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
And sure, 80sec then 80. Make no difference when it's 80-90 depending on your cooldown of mage ballad anyway.
And since everyone count Trabadour as the party buff, I will do it as well. Fair is fair. -
08-01-2019, 11:55 PMNeelai I thought katars would be ninja weapons back in the days but... well ^^'Quote:
Originally Posted by RikuGx
I really miss those days tbh : / -
08-02-2019, 12:21 AMHyoMinParkYou were arguing party buffs a la damage buffs - because there are no other types of buffs that one would stack, outside of progression where you may have to stack mitigative buffs. DNC has 1 party-wide damage buff (Technical Finish). The other two are self and single-target (Standard Finish/Devilment). BRD has 1 party-wide buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by TcomJ
Your cheat sheet mistakenly refers to Devilment as Saber Dance. Saber Dance is a weaponskill.
DNC only has 1 that they would actively stack with other raidwide buffs. Just like BRD does. Standard Finish/Devilment only affect the DNC and one other party member, so I think it's unfair to try and compare them to raid buffs one would stack.Quote:
Originally Posted by TcomJ
Your songs will always be off cooldown so that you can do an 80 second rotation. Under no circumstances will you have to do a 90s rotation to line them up. So I have no idea what you mean by "depending on your cooldown of Mage's Ballad" because it will always be off-cooldown when it comes up in your rotation unless you messed up the rotation.Quote:
And sure, 80sec then 80. Make no difference when it's 80-90 depending on your cooldown of mage ballad anyway.
And it does make a difference. 80s means you enter RS faster, which means more frequent bursts. 90s means you're delaying it, which hurts your overall damage. Especially if you end up losing a usage of RS+Minuet in a fight. So your rotation duration does matter.
You're being deliberately disingenuous by insinuating that DNC has something BRD does not in the form of Shield Samba. Troub, Samba, and Tactician are all the same, so you can't weigh one against the other as if its an inherent advantage. Improv is also a very highly situational skill that is only used when there is downtime since the DNC cannot move or perform any actions while using it. They can attempt to weave it for a brief healing buff, but doing so can also screw up their personal Esprit, so it takes careful planning on the part of the DNC to make sure they don't end up with janky Esprit (which usually happens anyways).Quote:
And since everyone count Trabadour as the party buff, I will do it as well. Fair is fair.
Curing Waltz is fairly weak even when both DNC and their partner are stacked, considering the amount of HP we have (in Savage, most have 90+ in i450 gear, with tanks inching towards 130k+). It's nifty to have, but I've yet to actually save anyone with it in Savage.
I'm as disappointed as the next BRD that BRD lost some support capabilities, but you've been going around acting as if the sky is falling on the job when it really isn't. BRD has far more consistent damage compared to DNC, and the preliminary rDPS numbers on E1S show MCH, BRD, and DNC all really close to one another in terms of rDPS. We'll see how it stacks up as more logs show up, but BRD is hardly hurting outside of an identity crisis with its support lore and some mild QoL like Apex Arrow function/tooltip/sound change.
BRD has more reliable rDPS than DNC does. DNC rDPS is all dependent on how well their Dance Partner does. If their Dance Partner dies, DNC takes a huge hit to both rDPS and pDPS (less Esprit gain because their partner died). There's a reason why groups were opting to take BRD for world prog over DNC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selig07
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08-02-2019, 03:33 AMRikuGxI sometimes load back to my old P-Server as i never could effort for the real thing when i was under 18,. Its still running to this day hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Neela
But yeah, modern games could learn a hughe deal from Ragnarok in terms of balancing and fun PVP/GVG. I had field days running as "General" in WoE coordinating all dat shit xD -
08-02-2019, 07:17 PMNeela
WoE was one of a kind! Stories like the all dominating Forever Love and their alliance hold their invested Bergel Castle for more than 300 days in a row - which caused a pact of the whole server to crash it before they reach the one years mark -> which later became known as the „Holy Geffen War“.
Fun times! Balanced times! :3
Technical Mass-Pvp just rocks...
FF14 „mass“ pvp or Feast are just meh in compression... :/ -
08-02-2019, 09:15 PMRikuGxI enjoyed pvp for a while, also mained ninja there. But when i lately couldnt even kill a dancer because of the lack of any ranged attack ability whatsoever while she kited me easily i entirely gave up on pvp as well. Sure, playing tank is also quiet intresting in pvp but my main already was dead in pvp to me and in pve its also dead so i currently lost my entire intrest to play FF14. Summoner is a little bit fun but seems to have a lot of issues as well ect ect...Quote:
Originally Posted by Neela
But i got a similar story from that p-server as i held one geffen castle with just 12 people for over 120 days. And what killed it wasnt another guild who conquered but infighting between the "main" guild and the "Secondary" guild which i led at that time. They struggled with having active people and wanted to merge again but demanded we give up our invested castle n stuff so they can be stronger. none of us agreed to it so we disbanded and gave them an empty guild back.
Since then ive never trusted german guilds ever again, they just dont work... -
08-02-2019, 09:55 PMConnor
At this point I’m convinced they need to give up this charade that the job is a ‘Bard’ and rename it Ranger. Change songs to some kind of skill that changes the arrows you use. It would take so little effort for them to make it a pure Ranger. A real Bard job can’t exist in the game until they stop trying to squish Ranger and Bard together, because if the last 3 expansions have been any indication it just doesn’t work. It’s evidenced by the constant balancing mid-patch to address the job either being underpowered or insanely overpowered, plus the reworks of the job for every expansion except Shadowbringers, where they decided to just drop the ‘bard’ identity.
Using one song for a split second animation that you’ll immediately interrupt with Burst Shot, every 30 seconds, with no effect on anyone other than the ‘Bard’ isn’t a satisfying fulfilment of the job’s supposed identity. It’s like if a Black Mage could only use their magic once every 30 seconds, with the spell having no effect on enemies or the caster besides initiating the progression of the job gauge. And they only have three spells, plus two spells that rarely see any use because they provide an often redundant effect that can’t be used often enough to be considered a draw. It wouldn’t feel like much of a Black Mage.
Tl;dr make the job a Ranger and add a real Bard in like 7.0 or whenever. It’s really the only option they have left at this point -
08-02-2019, 11:56 PMVorpol100% agree with this,Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
I've thought this since ARR, trying to roll Bard and Ranger into one job isn't doing either of them justice
Currently bard damage wise feels okay but as someone who plays a bard, I don't feel like I am a bard or ranger
they should consider making bard a support / healer job and introduce ranger as a ranged physical dps
Even FFXI had those two jobs separate and had a unique feel -
08-03-2019, 12:03 AMConnorYeah, this is exactly what I mean. Right now it feels like each expansion the devs are like ‘so which part do we cut/change this time?’. When it comes to Bard / Archer, it’s like one side always has to suffer for the other to be enjoyableQuote:
Originally Posted by Vorpol
The closest we’ve come to having a balance that satisfies both groups with Stormblood, but it was so popular that it become almost compulsory for raiding, which is never a good sign
Also, looking at just the concept alone the FFXI iteration of Bard was (at the very least), faithful to what it had been in every Final Fantasy game preciously (as was Ranger, though it didn’t have woodland creatures coming to help it lol). And again, I’m not saying there’s anything ‘wrong’ with how Bard is now, but it doesn’t feel like the same job it is in any other FF. I find it strange that in a game that prides itself on giving a ‘true ff’ feel, we have this one job that has absolutely no precedent in any previous FF. Even Gunbreaker is full of Squall/Lightning references, so while it’s not based on a specific ‘job’ it still channels something to give it that FF flavour. Bard is currently the only battle job that has absolutely no precedent from a previous ff; even Arcanist arguably channels traditional Summoners like Rydia with its focus on offensive magic and summoning (conceptually). And you can even argue that the White Mage oriented Summoners like Garnet and Yuna are represented through support like Devotion, Raise and Everlasting Flight
I know I’m getting way too into this complaint lol, but I just want to make it clear to others who might be confused why I’m saying Bard doesn’t feel like a Bard. And again, this isn’t to say that there is anything numerically or mechanically wrong with its current iteration. But it sucks coming into the game as a Final Fantasy, seeing that there’s a ‘Bard’ job, then realising that it’s actually something entirely different to what the name suggests (in the context of wider FF) -
08-03-2019, 01:47 AMTcomJI'm as disingenuous as you want you DNC to have a place since you clearly jump ship. There is a data on FFlog and you already know DNC gives more damage buff to anybody in the game by rediculous amount that rDPS becomes identical to bard. Just look at aDPS vs rDPS, it's night and day.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
I posted the table of abilities you still refuse to acknowledge that DNC has more buffs than BRD by default, while bard songs are all gone just for DNC.
So whether your new job has a place or not, most BRD will not care. That's clear in Japan forum as well, you can go check.
And yes, it's 80-90. Because your rotation accumulate that last 1 second that you are switching song before it runs out, in raid some timing can cause your song to run out or inactive during transition phase or boss LB.
You clearly would deny every suggestion to additional functionality to "songs" since it would hurt your new lover no matter the number.
Grats for now that they steal the support functionality to your new DNC. But pretty sure the dev will listen to Japan forum than here. -
08-03-2019, 06:39 PMRadicalPesto
They're not going to redesign every single piece of lore, every single quest, every single artifact armor and relic on Bard just to rename the class to Ranger and add a "real bard" over a few forum complaints prompted entirely by the removal of a passive buff and one skill on Bard. I'm not sure why people bother with these impossible suggestions.
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08-04-2019, 02:01 AMVorpolI'm sure people said that about 1.0 XDQuote:
Originally Posted by RadicalPesto
anything is possible, I don't think any of us are saying redesign everything. More so covert Bard into a healer/support with songs that buff / heal
they could still use a harp/bow and add ranger as a ranged physical damage dealer. it wouldn't be that hard. Will it rub some people the wrong way? maybe..
but overall i think it would be a good change. -
08-04-2019, 12:10 PMSakiKojiroAs a big RO fan, that's unfair.Quote:
Originally Posted by TcomJ
Also, FFXIV can no longer compare to WoW in class design. WoW's classes and specs are all super unique and their spells and skills all fit their design super well. They may not have crazy complex rotations, but they fit thematically. Something we don't have. -
08-04-2019, 06:29 PMHanayumi
Main issue devs have with bard's support buffs is that the don't want them to stack with dnc. So they dont want to have to make them be nonstack buffs like sch/ast shields nor do the want to nerf the buffs so that dnc loses a bit of its soul as a true support job, when really bard does just fine without the party buffs. So yeah if ya'll really want bard buff songs back they would pretty much have to be purely utility, defensive, healing, mp regen kinda thing.
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08-04-2019, 06:44 PMHyoMinParkVery nice personal attack here. Can't attack my argument so you decide to attack me instead. 10/10Quote:
Originally Posted by TcomJ
So what if I play DNC now as my main raiding job? I had planned to play it back when people still speculated it might be a healer, because I honestly wanted something new to do and the aesthetic of a job that dances to support/heal really appealed to me. I still plan to flex BRD, and I still want both to be equally viable as supports. Contrary to what you have written here, I still love BRD and still play it despite it losing a lot of its support and "BRD-like" aspects. This entire comment is littered with nothing more than ad hominem because you've clearly ran out of arguments at this point.
I speak in terms of rDPS always. Not aDPS. Because rDPS is ultimately what matters in a raid and what matters when it comes to balancing. I'm well aware the DNC's aDPS is low due to the ~1,000+ it can give a single player with just Standard Finish/Devilment. Likewise, BRD has higher pDPS because it buffs less, and is actually a better choice for progression because its rDPS is more stable and not so heavily reliant on another player basically not dying, which happens a lot in prog. Not to mention, Minne is a far more useful tool than Curing Waltz, which is honestly weak considering our HP pools and the amount of outgoing damage that we currently see in Savage. Improv's healing buff is nice, but ideally only availabke for a server tick or two due to the nature of the skill, and it can also throw off DNC's Esprit if used at an inopportune time and they had not properly been managing said Esprit before. Not to mention, people have to be in range just like they do for Mantra.
I'm acknowledging damage buffs. Which are the only buffs you really stack in optimized kills. Very rarely does one have to stack mitigation after they've optimized a fight, and it's far better to space them out for more reduced healing than to pile them onto a single mechanic. In terms of DAMAGE BUFFS, DNC only provides 3 - 2 single target and 1 AOE. That has been my argument all along, but you can try to spin it however you like. You'd never stack both Shield Samba and Improv unless you're doing early progression, and even then it is likely to be overkill. My group hasn't needed double mitigation stacked for anything thus far and we've made it to Titan Maximum. Hence my comment about Samba versus Troubadour. They all effectively do the same thing, so you cannot claim one is an advantage over the other. Trying to say DNC has more buffs than BRD while piling Samba into those counts is disingenuous—they both have the same AOE mitigation. DNC does have more buffs than BRD, but the two are fairly balanced in rDPS regardless of how many buffs DNC gives. Which is how it should be.
Very few instances have deviations from the 80 second rotation. 80 seconds is the standard, not the few instances where one might opt to extend a particular song (Army's Paeon) due to a phase transition or to better line up Minuet with bursts later on in the fight (e.g., O9S Tsunami first versus Blaze first). You counting the 1 second you may or may not add while transitioning does not make your song rotation suddenly 90 seconds, and that's a poor attempt to try and defend your 90 second declaration from a few posts back. The standard is always 30-30-20. Has been since SB introduced the new songs.
I'd rather see both equally viable as support. I've been a firm advocate of returning support to BRD, but, of course, you won't acknowledge that as it directly hurts the attack post you've made here. Feel free to check the decent suggestion thread made by a BRD theorycrafter who suggests readding Foe's as perhaps a gauge ability (among other QoL fixes such as Apex Arrow sound changes) to see that I'm in agreement. I just know that you also have to take care not to break the job as it has been broken so many times before to the point where it becomes a hard lock. Because then it hurts more than just "my new lover" - it hurts MCH as well. Look no further than SB to see how hard of a lock BRD had become because of its utility. I love the job - I've played it as a main since I started this game in 2015 - but it was overpowered.
As for the developers listening to JP over NA: that's not something new. They've always had more open ears to JP than NA. NA had been bringing up piercing and DRG reliance for ages. The devs didn't acknowledge it until a JP player asked Yoshida about changing it.
Whether or not my job “has a place” is irrelevant to me because I’m not a meta slave. Never have been. I only acknowledge that the meta is the best for optimized kills/getting pretty parses, but that about it. What with FFLogs now removing the pad aspects entirely, pretty logs hinges more on player skill and execution than just stacking buffs on players. -
08-04-2019, 06:53 PMRazardComparing the loss of a passive buff and Foe’s Requiem to the release and re-release of one of the worst mmo’s ever created?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorpol
And I thought Summoner players where shrieking, hyperbolic morons with no sense of scale. My gosh, the first time BRD’s place in the meta has been called into question and they are already screaming about “Muhdentity”.
What a job can be =/= what you think the class should be. -
08-05-2019, 12:23 AMHanayumi
Folks forget Devs gave bard a whole preformance system? Bard is bard, song buff or not, lol
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08-05-2019, 01:31 AMConnorSo if a Bard loses its song buffs it’s still a Bard, but if a Scholar loses 2/3 DoTs the entire identity of the class is destroyed? Is ok for Dancers to stop dancing if they get an emote for it? I don’t think it’s accurate to say the identity of any job is represented by an emote, especially when it doesn’t add anything to how the job actually playsQuote:
Originally Posted by Hanayumi
I just don’t see why we should settle for just an emote and 3 personal damage boosts that don’t make much sense in the context of the job, when so many other job communities are up in arms about their job’s identity being waylaid. Why is it not ok if Astrologian loses its buffs and identity but it’s ok for the same to happen to Bard -
08-05-2019, 07:45 AMHanayumi
Ast and sch actually felt bad to play with the changes, bard feels solid, apex arrow need some tweak but the lost of foes and the tiny dh buff didn't harm it. Warden, battle voice, nature's, and troubadour bard still has support songs theyre just utility now.
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08-05-2019, 08:34 AMConnorI’m not claiming Bard feels ‘bad’ or that it has issues with damage output. The issue is that a job that is supposed to be defined by its support only has 4 support abilities, with long cooldowns, and effects that don’t feel like they have any real impact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanayumi
Paean can remove debuffs but only once every 45 seconds, and generally if there’s debuff mechanics you’ll require more than one Esuna anyway (e.g if people stand in Leviathan puddles), so you can’t take much pressure off healers. Minne affects healer oGCDs but as healers are already given vast amounts of downtime, there generally isn’t a situation where the healers are going to actively gain from the healing boost, and with a 90 second cooldown it can’t be used when needed as an ‘emergency cooldown’. Troubadour is useful, but it’s also been cloned into Tactician and Shield Samba, so it’s not as much a ‘Bard’ utility as it is a ‘ranged dps’ utility
As a Machinist, you have less support but it’s make up for with flashy DPS moves. As a Dancer, you have loads of support options on short cooldowns that feel like they’re actually doing something. Steps also deal damage, Curing Waltz is on a short cooldown (though weird scaling means it only becomes a serviceable heal when you stack with dance partner), Improvisation builds Esprit. There are meaningful interactions between the damage and support elements, and it feels like you’re playing a ‘Dancer’. I feel like having no meaningful interactions between support and damage for Bard (e.g Soul Voice being consumed by shorter cooldown buff songs) has made the Bard job feel much more ‘Ranger’.
In 2.0 they went the wrong way with these interactions and had songs reduce the casters damage, which was massively unpopular. By the time we reach 4.0, while there weren’t any real interactions between the songs and DPS, there was at least some effort. The crit buffs from using songs made it feel like going through your damage song rotation was actively helping the party, even if it was unbalanced. Foe Requiem necessitated MP management and deciding Refresh usage based on whether the Requiem boost outweighed healers needing MP. Requiem also consumed large chunks so it wasn’t too difficult to manage. And you have to watch timing for your cast so it didn’t cut into DPS rotation. Minne didn’t affect abilities but the shorter cooldown made it feel more serviceable as a tool to make healers’ lives easier (more likely to be at times when someone makes a mistake).
My ‘idea I don’t expect to ever see implemented’ is that they should reinforce Bard’s utility as a ‘healer-helper’. Return Requiem, add Regen song, maybe Raise song (though that would make Bard guaranteed in raids again so probably not lol), possibly a direct heal song. Give them all a 1.5 cast time and soul voice cost (so you don’t have to manage mp), and do the same with Paean/Minne/Troubadour. Possibly put them on GCD for damage reduction to user for balance. That would make Bard feel much more like the ‘Bard’ it’s support to be, and give a meaningful interaction between damage and songs (use damage songs, DoT enemy, Repetoire builds Soul Voice, which is used to buff party. And personally I’d happily take across-the-board damage nerfs for something like that to happen in like 6.0 or whatever -
08-05-2019, 08:39 AMHyoMinPark
The issue with Paean isn't even its cooldown. In high end content, none of the debuffs present in there are cleansable, which makes it inherently useless in content that matters.
Minne is perfect when you know tankbusters are coming up. Since it boost oGCDs now, and since oGCDs are the first go-to healing spells in any healer's toolkit, tossing Minne on a tank about to get hit is an optimal choice. It is also still good for spread Adlo, despite Catalyze not spreading with the Galvanize. In coordinated environments, Minne is an astounding tool. And it should never be used as an emergency cooldown - it should be carefully planned. Just like all other mitigative and healing tools. It helps even more that Savage encounters are fully scripted. -
08-05-2019, 09:29 AMConnorWhile I don’t doubt this is all true, I was writing more from the perspective of standard DF where players aren’t generally going to be coordinating things like Minne/Adlo spread, outside of it happening incidentally, like the healer just so happens to heal the tank when you use Minne on them rather than one causing the other. In a savage raid scenario things like Minne are super useful because you can guarantee that it’ll be able to used when it’s needed because everything can and will be predicted. So despite being a long cooldown, you can plan it out to always be available when it’s needed for a tank buster. In general content though, particularly with first timers, there isn’t as much scope to accurately predict who might need some extra heals (can’t see who’s going to stand in orange until they’re standing in it). By ‘emergency cooldown’, I was thinking more of something you can use reactively when needed as opposed to something you’d hold on to unless things got really bad. Maybe emergency wasn’t the right word as much as more readily available. Naturally I’m not saying we should just use it whenever we want because that would be a little much, but I feel like the 45 second cooldown felt more comfortable for the skill than 90, even if it would mean reducing the buff to 10/15%. And as much as I’d love it I don’t think anyone would take to my idea of having it on GCD with a Soul Voice or MP cost lolQuote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
It’s an interesting thought probably for another thread, but I’m not sure how I feel about abilities that are useful in savage but not so much outside it. Dissipation before the changes is one I can think of from the top of my head; in general content you wouldn’t want to sacrifice the healing from fairy because of the DPS loss. But in Savage where you can plan everything out, you know undoubtedly when damage is going to be taken by the tank, which means you can more freely sacrifice the fairy for the extra Energy Drains or for buffed Adlo on the Warrior with Convalescence up. So on the one hand, I do feel like Minne could have something done for it to make it feel more impactful in normal content. But on the other hand, I’m aware it wouldn’t be fair on people who do raid to have these abilities changes to accommodate being used in more general content.
As for Paean unfortunately I can’t think of many ways for an Esuna to be particularly useful because as you say, you can’t esuna things in content that matters anyway. A rework to the ability might be a bit much, but it doesn’t feel useful very often in its current form -
08-05-2019, 09:44 AMHyoMinParkYour mistake is assuming that Troubadour and Minne aren’t useful outside of Savage. They are plenty useful in general content if you know how to time them—even with PUGs, you can still get mileage out of both by simply having a basic knowledge of whatever encounter you are participating in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
Even in general content, most damage is scripted. All bosses are scripted. Trash packs are scripted. The best uses of Minne in a dungeon would be on the tank during trash packs—particularly the larger ones. Your healer will get more mileage out of it that way, as it will buff their healing on the tank that is already taking a truckload of damage. Troubadour can also be used on large packs because, again, you get more mileage out of its 10% damage reduction by using it when the tank will be taking the most damage. I tend to alternate: Troubadour/Minne on one pack, the other on the next pack. And both be back up after the boss is dead for you to use again. I tend to use Minne first depending on how many trash packs there are between bosses—if there are three standard pulls, then Minne can see use on 2/3 of them (Minne > Troubadour > Minne).
Like most cooldowns, these shouldn’t really be used reactively. Even in general content with PUGs, you should have a rough plan of when they would be most useful. Think of them like tank cooldowns: tank cooldowns aren’t used reactively, but proactively. You don’t pop them when you’re at 20% and hope you live—you pop them before to actively prevent more damage, and to try and prevent hitting that 20% HP. I think it’s safe to say that the same applies to Minne and Troubadour.
The longer cooldown on Minne is the trade-off for it now affecting oGCDs. I think it would teeter into broken territory if it was still 45s but worked on all healing oGCDs. Saito mentioned this previously in the thread, but I have to agree with them: the developers have to be very careful with BRD, because they do have a tendency to make the slightest changes and skyrocket it immediately into broken territory. The suggestions you have made (regen song, direct heal song, raise song), while nice, would probably risk making them a hard lock in groups, which would be a repeat of 4.x where MCH fought with casters for a spot instead of BRD (though, with casters having a guaranteed spot now thanks to the 5% party stat buff from having 1 of each of the 5 roles, now it would either be MCH/DNC fighting for the 4th spot with the typical second melee or just dying off completely).
As for Paean, I’ve always thought a small shield would be much better for it compared to an Esuna. That would probably require a longer CD though, depending on the strength and duration of the shield. Personally, I’d rather it function closer to Palisade as a free tank cooldown, but that would also tip the scales in favor of BRD in Savage/Ultimate (at least, for prog), and you have to be careful to maintain the balance between all three. -
08-05-2019, 06:15 PMConnorWell, you’re probably right that I’ve undersold Minne’s worth, and it’s not like I’m not using it because I’d prefer something else. I tend to put it up for either tank busters in boss fights, or in dungeons I’ll use it when the tank gets to around 60/70% while fighting so that it’s timed with the healer using whatever mid-pull healing/regens. I tend to use Troubadour just as the pre-pull begins before going into Minne, though the other way around probably does make more sense since shields etc usually happen pre-pull.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
All that said though, my favourite use of Minne is still helping out party members that have taken damage they shouldn’t have. Not that using it for tank busters isn’t helping the party out; I think it’s more about personal perceptions than anything. I guess what I’m trying to say with it is that I’d like to have more freedom to use those kinds of abilities to help the party.
As for balance, I do understand the developers are terrified of Bard reaching the 2.0 release point where people were running with like 4 of them. And I do get that those abilities I suggested would turn Bard into Red Mage on steroids lol. At the same time though, I feel like there can be those kinds of abilities without breaking the balance of the role, but they’d have to come at such a large cost to the Bard’s damage output that it wouldn’t be worth the exchange to any Bard other than myself. I know my opinion isn’t shared by other Bards but I always saw the job as one that sacrifices personal damage to help out the party in some way, rather than vice-versa, but I think using this concept to balance the job has been discarded in favour of the current one where it’s much more in-line with standard DPS utility with the caveat of having DPS that’s also more in-line with them; though it does have a bit more variety with utility than for say, Dragoon or Monk.
Honestly I’ve always though Bard would be better balance if it was more in-like with casters, since rDPS can’t jump too high with utility if it’s gated by cast times and some kind of resource management. I think this is largely due to my own perception of Bard though, since a large part still holds on to the original concept from 1.0, where songs worked as cast buffs instead of auras, and access to Conjurer and Thaumaturge cross-classes gave it a variety of useful support spells. Obviously the game itself was a mess lol, but the concept is what made me ‘fall in love with the job’, and it’s been disappointing for me to see that gradually be taken apart with nothing to replace it for the same kind of ‘feel’. So I do have my own biases when it comes to what I imagine a Bard ‘should be’ like
Also, I feel like there’s some sort of issue causing these balancing problems, though I’m not informed enough to point out exactly what, though I think generally it’s about the ‘utility jobs’. . There are several jobs in this position where any adjustments cause their contributions to jump beyond what they were expected to, or make knee-jerk adjustments to that cause them to be underpowered, like Ninja because of Trick Attack and Scholar with shields / fairy to shoulder healing responsibility etc. I feel like the reason Bard edges so closely toward overpowered is because the developers don’t seem to want to accept that it’s utility has to come with a damage penalty but f some kind. The alternative is what we have now where the utility has be ‘watered down’ to an extent in exchange for more personal DPS. Which is fine in concept, but from my perspective it kind of defeats the purpose of the job in the first place if the damage dealing aspects are the priority for development, since dealing large amounts of damage wasn’t the thing that drew me personally to the job in the first place.
Also apologies to everyone that I let the length of this reply get so out of hand lol -
08-06-2019, 10:20 PMTcomJQuote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
From the person who attacks me first disregarding on all ideas and balance in numbers and evidence on fflog and even the abilities chart. Sure. -
08-06-2019, 10:34 PMHyoMinParkWell, the ideas you had for songs gave me pause to consider either how much BRD's personal damage would have to be nerfed to compensate (I'm thinking of RDM here, as the developer's main argument for it doing the lowest damage of the casters is "It has Verraise", but we all know how useful Verraise becomes when fights shift from progression to farm territory); or how weak they would have to be (I'm thinking of DNC's Curing Waltz - individually you get maybe ~5,000 HP restore, so stacked you'll maybe be lucky to see ~10,000 restored; and, while nice, consider how large our HP pools are right now and how little of an impact it can have being a 60-second ability that actually requires everyone stacked in a 3y radius to be used effectively).Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
I want more support, I just don't want the tools to feel... lackluster or like they lose value once you shift from prog to farming. With MP, at least, it always had a use (back in the day, and back in SB - it actually had a more versatile use in SB compared to ARR/HW, imo). Now, if they could give us some tools that would be useful in all stages of content, that would be lovely. I think it would be nice for Minne to be AOE - but I suppose they want that to be exclusive to MNK's Mantra and our Minne to have the single-target effect only.
Perhaps they can bring Foe's back at some point and rework it into something. A gauge ability or an oGCD on a CD. Personally, I'd love for it to still use MP, because then our MP bar would have a use at least. As it is now, it just sits there doing nothing.
Calling you out for making mistakes in your analysis is a far cry from blatant ad hominem, my dude. You weren't attacking my arguement. You were attacking me because I, what, play DNC now? What's it to you what I play? Not sure why you seem to care so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by TcomJ
Anyways. The evidence on Everyone's Favorite Website actually points in favor of the arguments that I've been presenting all along: BRD, MCH, and DNC are all very close to one another in terms of rDPS right now; which insinuates that, currently, there is no massive balancing issue between the three. On the fights where they differ, DNC is actually the one far below the other two (this is only for E2S). The only fight where BRD is below DNC is E3S...by a grand total of ~6 rDPS.
At 95th percentile -
E1S:
BRD - 10,629.91
MCH - 10,612.27
DNC - 10,434.35
E2S:
MCH - 12.267.59
BRD - 12,238.91
DNC - 11,707.57
E3S:
MCH - 12,047.56
DNC - 11,859.37
BRD - 11,853.43
E4S:
MCH - 12,213.50
BRD - 12,182.29
DNC - 11,998.84
Uploads for BRD are also high: 8,049 versus the 6,928 DNCs and 6,159 MCHs. Currently, BRD is the second most popular uploaded job in Savage. So, how is it suffering (identity aside)?
As for the abilities chart - you don't stack mitigation outside of prog, and even then, it's better to stagger it if you can survive with just one type (e.g., Reprisal, Passage of Arms, Troub/Tactician/Samba, Heart of Light, Dark Missionary, Divine Veil, spread Adlo, etc.). You stack raid buffs; which, you claiming DNC had 3 partywide buffs is disingenuous when you consider only 1 of them is a raid buff you would actively stack with other raid buffs. Much like how BRD only has 1 raid buff. And MCH has none. The rest of DNC's AOE utility kit is either situational (Improvisation), blatantly lackluster (Curing Waltz), or identical to the jobs you're comparing them to (Shield Samba).
Perhaps this is a terminology difference, but when people refer to "stacking buffs", they are referring to damage buffs. Not healing buffs or mitigation.