SAM is undertuned again.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

Tool tips actually say you cannot use Kaiten with T-G. It will only work on Iajutsu if you're using a Sen related move.

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Where does it say this?
I can't see anything about that :/.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Where does it say this?
I can't see anything about that :/.

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Says it right in the tool tip.

Kaiten: Increases potency of next weaponskill

All the original Sen moves are weaponskills, and you can find if it is an 'Ability' or 'weaponskill' right under the moves name.
T-G moves are mere abilities, thus Kaiten will not affect them.

Not even a dps player and I think SAM could use some love should be tad higher given the lack of utility sam provides.

Just increase Shoha's potency to 5000.
Kidding aside, something needs to be done about that garbage. I mean, 500 potency for a skill you use once or twice in a battle? Compare it with Gekko or Kasha, "only" 470 potency, but you get to use them FAR more often.

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Originally Posted by Senliten

Says it right in the tool tip.

Kaiten: Increases potency of next weaponskill

All the original Sen moves are weaponskills, and you can find if it is an 'Ability' or 'weaponskill' right under the moves name.
T-G moves are mere abilities, thus Kaiten will not affect them.

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Ah, thanks.
Tbh I've never even looked at that before, didn't even know that it said and distinguished between them but now I see.

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Originally Posted by Nanami_Naniwa

For a second there I thought you were serious o_ô

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It... is serious.

SAM provides only its DPS, just as BLM does. And yet at the highest levels of play it only does 3%, which provides notable rDPS, and some 9% behind BLM (compared to the at most 3% pDPS gaps in other subsequent leads, with far smaller tDPS gaps to boot)?

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Originally Posted by CodingSession

Just increase Shoha's potency to 5000.
Kidding aside, something needs to be done about that garbage. I mean, 500 potency for a skill you use once or twice in a battle? Compare it with Gekko or Kasha, "only" 470 potency, but you get to use them FAR more often.

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Do you really want your relative output to swing that much between fights based just on whether they have long enough jumps to give you a full Shoha? It's just like Seigan in that matter. You'll likely effectively be balanced around the best fight for Shoha (jumps) and Seigan (raid damage every 15 seconds), but then few fights will actually allow either to be optimized.

As long as they're restrictive enough with fight designs to create little difference between a "best Shoha/Seigan" and "worst Shoha/Seigan" fight, there's no real issue, but... that's not really a constraint we need.

SAM is presently undertuned, purely and simply. It doesn't need to be buffed only in some fights and not others via situational bonus skills, nor need it to constrain fight designs to always for those situational skills' efficacy. Just... buff it generally.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Ah, thanks.
Tbh I've never even looked at that before, didn't even know that it said and distinguished between them but now I see.

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TG values already include Kaiten. You can think of it being that they simply did you the favor of not forcing you to double-weave, especially since if you were to use Kaiten on the skill before it, you wouldn't be able to use it on the TG due to Kaiten's own cooldown.

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Yeah, I was just thinking that if it worked then it'd be better to delay Kaiten and use it for Gaeshi instead.

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Ahh, gotcha. Yeah, being able to stack Kaiten with the TG values would be pretty... ridiculous, be it in a good way or not so good way, haha.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It... is serious.

SAM provides only its DPS, just as BLM does. And yet at the highest levels of play it only does 3%, which provides notable rDPS, and some 9% behind BLM (compared to the at most 3% pDPS gaps in other subsequent leads, with far smaller tDPS gaps to boot)?



Do you really want your relative output to swing that much between fights based just on whether they have long enough jumps to give you a full Shoha? It's just like Seigan in that matter. You'll likely effectively be balanced around the best fight for Shoha (jumps) and Seigan (raid damage every 15 seconds), but then few fights will actually allow either to be optimized.

As long as they're restrictive enough with fight designs to create little difference between a "best Shoha/Seigan" and "worst Shoha/Seigan" fight, there's no real issue, but... that's not really a constraint we need.

SAM is presently undertuned, purely and simply. It doesn't need to be buffed only in some fights and not others though via situational bonus skills, nor need it to constrain fight designs to always for those situational skills' efficacy. Just... buff it generally.



TG values already include Kaiten. You can think of it being that they simply did you the favor of not forcing you to double-weave, especially since if you were to use Kaiten on the skill before it, you wouldn't be able to use it on the TG due to Kaiten's own cooldown.

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Yeah, I was just thinking that if it worked then it'd be better to delay Kaiten and use it for Gaeshi instead.

Ah, this explains all those 14k dps Sams i see at Titania and Innocence extreme then while the BLMs and most other dps (except for dragoon) tend to pull closer to 8k-9k...

Yes... i am doubting the validity of fflogs atm. Its to early and not enough different logs yet.

I'd trust FFLogs better then the parses of random players because the EX trials are lenient enough to allow for very subpar DPS to still get a clear.

Optimally, NIN was mentioned as the only DPS that should be pulling around 9K. Everything else (Save for DNC which is significantly lower still) should be pulling around 2-3K more then that.

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Originally Posted by adamswagem

meanwhile playing SMN is like playing high APM starcraft and does trash can DPS yet you are here complaining about SAM XDD

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Those egi assault actions, most of them just straight dps moves, I'm thinking they should just have more potency but a longer recast time so we're not whacking them so often. The garuda ground DoT thing can just stay out for longer duration at its currenct potency or something. And potency boost some other things if smn needs it. Also is addle still used for dps increase? (proc wyrmwave). I feel like baha/phoenix should just be autonomous and do their moves a set number of times but maybe that would be unpopular for making things too easy. At least utility moves shouldn't trigger it so they can be saved for their intended purposes.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'd trust FFLogs better then the parses of random players because the EX trials are lenient enough to allow for very subpar DPS to still get a clear.

Optimally, NIN was mentioned as the only DPS that should be pulling around 9K. Everything else (Save for DNC which is significantly lower still) should be pulling around 2-3K more then that.

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Ok, well.. for the sake of fflogs let us then check the actual ffdata.
First we simply scroll down. Due to massive RNG and bullshit tactics affecting the data.. its always bad to use the top 3.
So... titania and innocence.. BLM and Samurai both at the bottom of the first page (aka, #100). Ow look.. 200-500 dps difference only
100 to far away from the top?
Fine.. #50 then.. ow, look.. 600 dps only.

As much as i agree that Samurai and BLM should be about equal dps and if they buffed it just slightly more to get it 100% exact... OP talking about how other dps is doing so much better than Samurai by taking some rng freak dps logs, Cant say i fully agree with his point like that.

If he had ANY other points except for the maximal limit of dps as seen atm on fflogs, i would have fully agreed and not argued.

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Originally Posted by TimeraiderGaranyi

Ah, this explains all those 14k dps Sams i see at Titania and Innocence extreme then while the BLMs and most other dps (except for dragoon) tend to pull closer to 8k-9k...

Yes... i am doubting the validity of fflogs atm. Its to early and not enough different logs yet.

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FFLOGS are currently bloated and somewhat unreliable since most of them are padded to hell with DNC + AST Card on 1 player and the occasional DRG, so take them with a grain of salt. So if you see a SAM in the 14k at the end of the fight they probably got boosted like hell. As for BLM, they can easily pull into the 11k without being focused by buff so they probably were pretty bad (except maybe for innocence since they have to move a lot more compared to titania)

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Originally Posted by TimeraiderGaranyi

Ok, well.. for the sake of fflogs let us then check the actual ffdata.
First we simply scroll down. Due to massive RNG and bullshit tactics affecting the data.. its always bad to use the top 3.
So... titania and innocence.. BLM and Samurai both at the bottom of the first page (aka, #100). Ow look.. 200-500 dps difference only
100 to far away from the top?
Fine.. #50 then.. ow, look.. 600 dps only.

As much as i agree that Samurai and BLM should be about equal dps and if they buffed it just slightly more to get it 100% exact... OP talking about how other dps is doing so much better than Samurai by taking some rng freak dps logs, Cant say i fully agree with his point like that.

If he had ANY other points except for the maximal limit of dps as seen atm on fflogs, i would have fully agreed and not argued.

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The thing is you can't really count on the current 'stat' ranking since they can vary drastically but they give an average idea of how the classes handles atm . The problem here is that OP took those stats WAY too early to be of any value since most players aren't up to the content, geared or used to the new openers and slight changes. But it doesn't change the fact that, at the moment, SAM is under tuned with how close some of the other dps are.

Heh, bump this thread. After looking at the adjustments across the board. Samurai is most likely still in a bad position. MNK received many quality of life enhancements when it was already in a great position. As it stands many people aren't going to want a Samurai in their raid groups given the other melee DPS options(DRG and MNK). Granted I don't have the hard data yet to back up my claims as this adjustment just came out, but I'm sure that I'm correct in my assessment.

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Originally Posted by Leifei

Heh, bump this thread. After looking at the adjustments across the board. Samurai is most likely still in a bad position. MNK received many quality of life enhancements when it was already in a great position. As it stands many people aren't going to want a Samurai in their raid groups given the other melee DPS options(DRG and MNK). Granted I don't have the hard data yet to back up my claims as this adjustment just came out, but I'm sure that I'm correct in my assessment.

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Considering monk got buffed and Samurai obtained... 60 potency per 60s? Yeah. Probably.

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Originally Posted by RidiculouslyComplicated

Considering monk got buffed and Samurai obtained... 60 potency per 60s? Yeah. Probably.

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Eh, not sure. Hagakure means your opening will always be consistent. 55 vs 60 sec Meikyo Shisui's is a bump, instant cast Tsubame-gaeshi is nice. Single meditation Shoha is 100 instead of 50. And for slightly larger windows, 300 for two mediation procs. Each change is small, but all together Samurai was buffed. More so than Ninja was imo, not that Ninja got much of a buff.

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Originally Posted by Yandere-chan

Eh, not sure. Hagakure means your opening will always be consistent. 55 vs 60 sec Meikyo Shisui's is a bump, instant cast Tsubame-gaeshi is nice. Single meditation Shoha is 100 instead of 50. And for slightly larger windows, 300 for two mediation procs. Each change is small, but all together Samurai was buffed. More so than Ninja was imo, not that Ninja got much of a buff.

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Gust slashes change was about 200 overall dps which is a significant, albeit very very very underwhelming change for ninja. I would argue that the Sam changes equate to far less than 200 dps over the fight. However, since this thread is about Sam issues I don't think comparing it to the most shafted melee dps who obviously needs help is useful, so I'll leave it at that.

While I do love quality of life changes (And I cannot deny Sam was buffed, obviously) it doesn't end up changing Sam's position in the meta because they did not prevent you from reaching the maximum damage when you had experience with the fight. Tsubame having a cast is an inconvenience, not something that would lower your damage in most circumstances and if it did it was poor planning on your part. It's useful to be instant but also shows a glaring issue that since Tsubame is an ability on the GCD you now have to feel quite awkward as you sit through the entire 2.5 second gcd to use your next skill (Usually after Tsubame you've just used a Senei, meikyo etc so your kenki it probably too low to use multiple shintens).

In regards to Shoha; before the changes Shoha was around 0.2-0.3% of your damage and now I would not think it significantly higher as you merely gained 50 pot for every fishing window (so 500 potency over a fight, optimally) and that is if you are able to... "obtain" (Let's put it this way) when every server tick is, without losing your auto attack. The thing is here is if you can target the boss but cannot be in melee reach for 1-2 GCDs then you should be using Enpi, not Shoha (100 pot + 10 kenki with a shorter time per gain than a shoha stack) which means, for example, in a fight like e1 savage you get two useful meditate (>2 stacks) each fight. The exception here is if you would cancel a combo finisher or drop a buff to use enpi as meditate becomes the lesser of two evils.

Hagakure being back is nice but there are only three real uses for it; disposing of a sen you would need to overwrite otherwise, as you want to be at 3 sen when tsubame comes off cooldown, resetting sen as your raid buff window is coming up (i.e. after adds on e1) or lastly, using it at the end of the fight when you would not be able to build another Midare (End of fight <9 GCDS). Anything else is a big loss in damage as just because your Midare is lacking one of the buffs does not mean it is better to exchange that sen for 5-15 kenki. Hagakure serves it's purpose and I wasn't a mega fan of shinten spam so I don't think Hagakure needs any changes.

Changes I would like to see would likely be some kind of shoha stacking mechanism based on Iaijutsu as this would both provide a constant use for the animation as well as provide a possibly more significant shift in damage. If we were to go beyond that, 2 tsubame charges (Even if one doesn't begin to charge until the fight starts) would also alleviate a lot of drifting issues Samurai experiences with the raid buff window, which is what Meikyo's 60->55 sec cd was meant to help with. This would be an additional 1200 potency over the entire fight, or less than 2 potency per second in a ten minute encounter.

I don't need Samurai to be a must pick or overpowered but it would be nice if it didn't take until 5.5 (just like stormblood) for samurai to not be considered a meme pick in PF. Black mages have managed it, why not us? Even if that means that playing Samurai at a top level has to become more difficult to compensate the higher damage.

My post is a bit lengthy, but I figured I'd write it out anyway.