Wars in need if potency increases

I do agree that if war got potency increases now, later there might be run away dps gains from crit scaling later in the expansion. For that reason that is why det is actually better than crit for wars atm.

Can we just for once not cry wolf when they in fact got the balancing as far as tanks are concerned pretty much spot on this time? I mean all 4 tanks are within a few 100's dps of each other, i'll call that a job well done.

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Originally Posted by Schrute

And the poop slinging rude accusations begin. Give me all your toxicity. Great community on the official forums

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My comments are not toxic most of it is being facts and your just taking all of this as being toxic which is not please look up the definition of toxicity before saying the word toxic

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

My comments are not toxic most of it is being facts and your just taking all of this as being toxic which is not please look up the definition of toxicity before saying the word toxic

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Self proclaiming you are right and I am wrong and everyone knows it... is toxic and adds nothing to the conversation.

Tank dps is very close all around, I agree they did a very good job. I’m just asking for some fine tuning.

Not trying to agree or disagree or anything but I would like to point out a few things. Food for thought, thats all. Anyway, IB and SC were not affected by tank stance damage reduction. War also had Unchained to remove that reduction as well. Both of these things are obviously pointless as tank stance has changed now. Correct me if I'm wrong but I dont remeber the other tanks having that beneficial stipulation on their moves. So collectively all those other moves on the tanks gained a boon while IB and SC didn't. Also after a fashion Unchained could be considered a buff to damage that was never compensated for. Granted this is subjective as it assumes you bothered to stay in tank stance which I know most didn't bother to do. Considering both gave hp back and IB also offered 20% damage reduction those moves lost both in CD effects and damaged due to the collective boon given to every other ability. While you can argue that RI and NF can make up for that fact, you don't get RI till 56 or NF till 76 while IB is 35. Also considering both are lost in HW content, the relevance of the moves only consists of lower, specifically ARR, content. So to what purpose does bringing up endgame and raid numbers bring to the discussion? This affects synced content not endgame. With that, wouldn't it be more comparable to GNB's Burst Strike that has a 500 potency and only requires one combo to generate a cartrage for? Maybe not, I'm not going to crunch massive numbers to try and figure out ARR tank comparable potencies. That's too much work for content that can be unsynced anyway. Who knows maybe it isn't a loss in comparison, I'm not bothering to figure it out. So I'm not going to agree or disagree if it needs a buff or not. It's just something to think about.

One more thing, if they did buff IB it wouldn't affect endgame anyway as you loose it at 52.

As for the other stuff, I think we are pretty well balanced for being at the beginning of an expansion, even if war is more boring on a fundamental level. Regardless you can make any tank fun if you pull big enough.

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Originally Posted by Schrute

And the poop slinging rude accusations begin. Give me all your toxicity. Great community on the official forums

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No.
You refuse to accept the chance that you're wrong, and instead of admitting fault, you instead direct that negativity towards those of us telling you, and explaining with raw numbers, how you're incorrect.

There's nothing more toxic than someone with a superiority complex who refuses to admit defeat when they are completely misguided on what it is they're talking about.

War does have the lowest dps in end game dungeons and third lowest in ex trials according to fflogs. I am disappointed seeing this as I had chosen war because it was the highest dps tank and loved fell cleave being such a large skill. Lets be honest. Eventually everything will be about speed runs. The tank with the highest dps, theoretically gets out faster. I prefer this. Of course this wasnt my only decision. I like gaining half of my dps from one button too. Spamming it as much as we do, with such a low potency, takes away some of the impact imo. I like inner chaos more than fell cleave now. I like nascent flash too. But with them only available in 80(ic) and 76(nf) content...

We're supposed to go back to older content. That is why roulettes exists. Yet the most important skills for me are gated to late game. I have been considering unsubbing until patch or swapping tanks. I miss old war. 2.0/3.0 was probably my favorite because of bloodbath, but i even prefer 4.0 variant over this iteration of war. I dont feel like a war at all. I feel like a dps with low amounts of defensive cooldowns and dont even accel at that, dpsing. \o/

I know some people are gonna say, "If you want dps play dps." Well, I enjoy dps WITH enmity management and all the extra interactions of a tank. Like watching for tank busters and mitigating them or picking up adds before they stomp my party. I wish nascent flash were easier to use as well. Like bloodbath combined with shake it off, not requiring a target to cast it. Even if the potency had to be reduced to balance it. As well a lower level requirement so we could actually use it. Seriously hurts my soul to AoE in pre-76 content without it. I do plan to run other content than just ShB for the next 2 years..
Its almost as bad as having an in-battle raise skill on a level 40(42/45/idr) skill in the old days, imo.

I would have been extremely happy had they given us a weaker Nascent Flash at like 35/40 and then added a trait to make it stronger (its current state) at level 76.
The hp leech of SC was removed and tacked on again at the very end. Its weird.

WHO AM I ANYMORE?

/rant

Side note, Yoshida said WAR was the most powerful tank. He lied. Peoples parses on fflogs show that is not the case. I assume that parsing is accurate or they wouldnt be using them? I kinda dont like that I was lied to. Though he could have ment something else.. but we dont seem to shine in any department. Do wars even accel at anything? Maybe when it comes to demanding buffs.. we scream the loudest? XD

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

War does have the lowest dps in end game dungeons and third lowest in ex trials according to fflogs. I am disappointed seeing this as I had chosen war because it was the highest dps tank and loved fell cleave being such a large skill. Lets be honest. Eventually everything will be about speed runs. The tank with the highest dps, theoretically gets out faster.

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It could be a little more complicated than that, depending on fight design. If WAR has a great burst DPS, it could help skip some phases that could make fights faster. In that case, having one of the lowest average DPS would not hinder WAR that much.

The example that comes to mind is Zurvan EX and the famous "skip Soar" that could be achieved far more easily if one of your tanks is a WAR with a massively powerful opener.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

No.
You refuse to accept the chance that you're wrong, and instead of admitting fault, you instead direct that negativity towards those of us telling you, and explaining with raw numbers, how you're incorrect.

There's nothing more toxic than someone with a superiority complex who refuses to admit defeat when they are completely misguided on what it is they're talking about.

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The numbers provided were out of context and subjective. Disagreeing is not toxic but strong arming someone and telling them they have a superiority complex is toxic.

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

Side note, Yoshida said WAR was the most powerful tank. He lied. Peoples parses on fflogs show that is not the case. I assume that parsing is accurate or they wouldnt be using them? I kinda dont like that I was lied to. Though he could have ment something else.. but we dont seem to shine in any department. Do wars even accel at anything? Maybe when it comes to demanding buffs.. we scream the loudest? XD

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yoship say WAR have the most powerful attack, not the strongest dps tank, so he didn't lie since inner chaos is the most powerful hit of the tanks.

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Originally Posted by Schrute

And the poop slinging rude accusations begin. Give me all your toxicity. Great community on the official forums

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Because nobody give a flying eff about lv50 content. Make a better point next time?

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

War doesn't need a buff due to how crit will scale later in this expansion. Also inner beast does more damage then storm path combo in a single Gcd. Also why are we even discussing this OP is wrong we all know it.

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I hear people claiming that but I don't see how. If all these great raid buffs don't impact WAR now, how is having a higher crit rate in the future going to make a difference? WAR won't improve in a vacuum, the other tanks will get stronger too.

My suspicion is that SE tried to balance the other tanks around WARs output, but in so doing they neglected to factor in "what if" the other tanks had similar DHCrit rates. This is exactly what's happening. War doesn't benefit from a lot buffs since our burst window already DHCrit. But because the other tanks were scaled up to match damage output, and are now being buffed to similar DHCrit rates, it blows WAR out of the water as a result.

Basically, Xeno cucked Warrior 2 years in advance.

Oh no, war isn't the best for the first time since 2.1. Whatever will we do.

War scales with crit because crit adds crit damage. The tanks are within a few hundred dps of each other. It's fine.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Because

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Crit increase crit chance and crit damage

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

Crit increase crit chance and crit damage

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We already have 100% crit rate for burst. So we get a couple more % of damage from stacking it. That's not what I'm debating.

What I said is that Warrior doesn't improve in a vacuum. Other tanks stats will go up and they'll also benefit from increased crit % and crit damage. On top of benefiting from raid buffs that we don't.

Crit scaling isn't going to make that much of a difference. Not to mention the massive assumption about stat itemization on future gear.

I’m saying this knowing WAR will be buffed, but I don’t see why they should always be top dps for tanks. They have better utility and mitigation than GNB and are very similar to DRK in play style. True PLD is the utility king but they also have to compete in dps to feature in end game content.

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Originally Posted by Dortharl

I’m saying this knowing WAR will be buffed, but I don’t see why they should always be top dps for tanks. They have better utility and mitigation than GNB and are very similar to DRK in play style. True PLD is the utility king but they also have to compete in dps to feature in end game content.

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Why is MCH top ranged DPS?
Why is BLM top caster DPS?
Why is SAM top melee DPS?

Because there has to be one. If you want to argue that they have the highest pDPS because they lack rDPS support, well, all of the tanks have pretty equal party support so technically they should all be doing the same damage. Why then should any tank do more damage than War? Warrior is the berserker job.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

We already have 100% crit rate for burst. So we get a couple more % of damage from stacking it. That's not what I'm debating.

What I said is that Warrior doesn't improve in a vacuum. Other tanks stats will go up and they'll also benefit from increased crit % and crit damage. On top of benefiting from raid buffs that we don't.

Crit scaling isn't going to make that much of a difference. Not to mention the massive assumption about stat itemization on future gear.

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Interesting take. Only concern is we do not know for sure what the crit scaling will be and how that will translate to raw damage. If there are potency increases in the future, and then crit scaling unintentionally multiplies the damage too high, there would be the need for potency reductions.

I think there are two routes they can go. Increase fell-cleave potency or change the functionality of onslaught, and it’s potency

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Originally Posted by Schrute

Interesting take. Only concern is we do not know for sure what the crit scaling will be and how that will translate to raw damage. If there are potency increases in the future, and then crit scaling unintentionally multiplies the damage too high, there would be the need for potency reductions.

I think there are two routes they can go. Increase fell-cleave potency or change the functionality of onslaught, and it’s potency

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After playing MCH it would be interesting to see something like Inner Chaos resetting the GCD to 1.5 sec. There are more ways than just straight potency increases.

Personally I'm fine with onslaught. For one it'd be annoying to have to press it every 10 sec. For second, not being a dps gain means it's actually available whenever we need it. In fact I'd rather see DPS neutral gap closers all around, but DRKs and PLDs would cry too much about taking away their free damage.

Until someone can prove otherwise, I'm sticking with SE just overtuned them a bit too much. I think WAR will be OK in a group that's not padding tanks, which actually is the majority. But SE should reconsider the others based on how much impact feeding them buffs has. Or maybe they're fine with it, who knows.

I am also a fan of gap closers being neutral dmg. I like the way onslaught works now too and it’s actually really nice in dungeon settings with hopping to other packs of mobs to avoid dmg, and to not over cap between pulls.

There are more ways to adjust dmg all around, but cheap and easy way would be fell cleave potency increase. Job play style is actually really fun. Wouldn’t change it.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Why then should any tank do more damage than War? Warrior is the berserker job.

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Because Warrior has been doing the most damage for how many years now? Resulting in other tanks being backburnered. Warrior has the highest burst of all the tanks.... that alone satisfies your "berserk job" thematic.

I really don't care if WAR falls behind the other tanks. I'm still going to play it. Just like how I played DRK even when it was behind the other tanks. I personally don't see WAR as needing any potency boosts.

What I don't want is for SE to instantly bend over backwards to alter the job from the ground up two patches in, making the changes every Tom, Dick, Harry, and Curious Gorge wants, regardless if warranted. If they're going to make radical mid-expansion changes, make them for the healers.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Why is MCH top ranged DPS?
Why is BLM top caster DPS?
Why is SAM top melee DPS?

Because there has to be one. If you want to argue that they have the highest pDPS because they lack rDPS support, well, all of the tanks have pretty equal party support so technically they should all be doing the same damage. Why then should any tank do more damage than War? Warrior is the berserker job.

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We're talking a difference of around 150 dps.

When Gunbreaker is the squishiest of the tanks.

Why is this so unacceptable?

Doesn't matter which tank is in front when they are all within the close margin that they are, why should the top spot be reserved for WAR? Makes no sense that ppl complaint about something so trivial.

The tank DPS differential is absolutely minimal at best. Cool off, Warrior mains. You're still beautiful.

Well now, that didn't take long, did it?

I thought the "Warrior is bad unless it crushes the other tanks under its heels" was a meme.

I still think onslaught shouldn't cost rage.

It's just awkward because of how infuriate and nascent works.

Nascent flash is pretty cool, I wish it didn't have a party requirement though.

Would also be nice if there was a way to get eye buff without single target combo so that war to reduce ramp up, especially for aoe purposes.

Maybe make onslaught free and give 10 secs of eye buff?

That way war can charge, eye combo to get 30 sec eye buff or charge then overpower and mythril tempest to extend eye buff.

* nascent chaos works

I still think onslaught shouldn't cost rage.

It's just awkward because of how infuriate and nascent chaos works.

Nascent flash is pretty cool, I wish it didn't have a party requirement though.

Would also be nice if there was a way to get eye buff without single target combo to reduce ramp up, especially for aoe purposes.

Maybe make onslaught free and give 10 secs of eye buff?

That way war can charge, eye combo to get 30 sec eye buff or charge then overpower and mythril tempest to extend eye buff.

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Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

I still think onslaught shouldn't cost rage.

It's just awkward because of how infuriate and nascent chaos works.

Nascent flash is pretty cool, I wish it didn't have a party requirement though.

Would also be nice if there was a way to get eye buff without single target combo to reduce ramp up, especially for aoe purposes.

Maybe make onslaught free and give 10 secs of eye buff?

That way war can charge, eye combo to get 30 sec eye buff or charge then overpower and mythril tempest to extend eye buff.

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NF should really have an option not to need another living body to activate, I do agree with that one.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

NF should really have an option not to need another living body to activate, I do agree with that one.

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I think a decent compromise for Nascent Flash would be if you have someone targeted, it works like normal... if you don't have anyone targeted, it applies to the closest ally. /shrug, just throwing out ideas.

The issue I see with onslaught not costing BG and have charges would mean for maximum dps gain you would save all charges inner release. I like that onslaught is a slight dps loss to use it atm, unless it is used to gain a gcd of up time.

Personally, I believe the best way to boost war dps with out changing job design at all is to increase the potency if fell cleave.

Why the griping about a skill that isn't even the final form?

Oh, Warrior. Never mind

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Originally Posted by DJMau

Why the griping about a skill that isn't even the final form?

Oh, Warrior. Never mind

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Why not add something constructive to the conversation and not be toxic?

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Originally Posted by Schrute

The issue I see with onslaught not costing BG and have charges would mean for maximum dps gain you would save all charges inner release. I like that onslaught is a slight dps loss to use it atm, unless it is used to gain a gcd of up time.

Personally, I believe the best way to boost war dps with out changing job design at all is to increase the potency if fell cleave.

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I still would like onslaught to be free = p

But i agree that fell cleave could use a potency increase. I feel like it's just getting weaker and weaker every xpac. It used to be a massive strike that dealt a ton of damage. Now it does pathetic damage... the tradeoff being able to do it 5 times in inner release sometimes doesnt feel worth it.

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Originally Posted by Novak_04

I think a decent compromise for Nascent Flash would be if you have someone targeted, it works like normal... if you don't have anyone targeted, it applies to the closest ally. /shrug, just throwing out ideas.

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You can already do that with a macro. This isn't a huge issue for pve... it's an annoyance though. The short duration also makes it hard to use, even with a macro.