Dollmaster - 4th healer suggestion

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

eh mages in general are suppose 2 be like thst not just healers but lulu is main blm but she becomes a goddess when u get curage revive etc on her

hell even Seyemore was femboyish lol and girly

and u might say vivi but remember he married quinna so ...ya

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You never said anything about mages. You said healers in your original statement lol.

That being said, fairly certain Yuna had better proficiency in both white and black magic compared to Lulu.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You never said anything about mages. You said healers in your original statement lol.

That being said, fairly certain Yuna had better proficiency in both white and black magic compared to Lulu.

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eh yes and no depends how u liked 2 use honestly i found tidus as the better whm /pally

It's kind of funny how we use Square Enix's casting tendencies to decide how effeminate or masculine a role is, isn't it?

I mean, technically speaking, isn't:

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

rlly masculinity healers would so stupid..

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Kind of the same as "rlly, feminine *basically any melee* would so stupid.."

Are you boycotting Dancer?

I for one, will happily be rocking my Astrologian dress as a Hrothgar.

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

It's kind of funny how we use Square Enix's casting tendencies to decide how effeminate or masculine a role is, isn't it?

I mean, technically speaking, isn't:



Kind of the same as "rlly, feminine *basically any melee* would so stupid.."

Are you boycotting Dancer?

I for one, will happily be rocking my Astrologian dress as a Hrothgar.

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mele femine jobs are a thing just not with heavy weapons.

for example Archer,gun <mech> and dancer

Also Rogue.
lancer is between femine and ya.

the non Femine jobs are pally,warrior,drk,monk,sam


which is why we need more axes, hammer and heavy themed weapons

I really can't come up with a response that isn't extremely condescending or doesn't require that I be sarcastically bigoted, and I'd rather not get banned, so this is where I bow out.

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

I really can't come up with a response that isn't extremely condescending or doesn't require that I be sarcastically bigoted, and I'd rather not get banned, so this is where I bow out.

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Allow me, soon-to-be-dancer-brethren.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

mele femine jobs are a thing just not with heavy weapons.

for example Archer,gun <mech> and dancer

Also Rogue.
lancer is between femine and ya.

the non Femine jobs are pally,warrior,drk,monk,sam


which is why we need more axes, hammer and heavy themed weapons

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Your ability to conflate your subjective opinion with objective fact is only matched by your mastery of (the butchery of) the English language.

The only actual melee job you list as feminine is Rogue. While you're entitled to your opinion I would point out that classically feminine poses tend to uniformly hold some semblance of good posture; something rogues and ninjas certainly show none of outside of the times that they're executing ninki. They tend to be hunched forwards and towards their enemy in an aggressive stance, this is clearly masculine if we're going to be stereotyping.

If you'd like to see a feminine pose look at a WHM casting Stone IV, a RDM using Displacement or an AST doing... well, basically anything at all.

I don't see why any of this actually matters to the game but what you're saying is just... it may be right in your head but that doesn't make it true. Recognize that you have an opinion and so does everyone else and just like butts just because we all have them doesn't mean we need to shove them in each other's faces.

Cool idea decent way to interprete puppet master

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Allow me, soon-to-be-dancer-brethren.



Your ability to conflate your subjective opinion with objective fact is only matched by your mastery of (the butchery of) the English language.

The only actual melee job you list as feminine is Rogue. While you're entitled to your opinion I would point out that classically feminine poses tend to uniformly hold some semblance of good posture; something rogues and ninjas certainly show none of outside of the times that they're executing ninki. They tend to be hunched forwards and towards their enemy in an aggressive stance, this is clearly masculine if we're going to be stereotyping.

If you'd like to see a feminine pose look at a WHM casting Stone IV, a RDM using Displacement or an AST doing... well, basically anything at all.

I don't see why any of this actually matters to the game but what you're saying is just... it may be right in your head but that doesn't make it true. Recognize that you have an opinion and so does everyone else and just like butts just because we all have them doesn't mean we need to shove them in each other's faces.

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look up the origins lol

Spears are just pole with sharp in which was female druids original weapons.

Rogue do i even need 2 explain.

Archer again mostly requires Agility not strength just agility and Acrobats again in orgin terms males didn't have.

Gunner is a medium can go both ways so ill give u that.


dancer do i rlly need 2 explain the only male dancers in orgins were a fire dancers.

Mages well robes alone just prove femine jobs lol

this aren't opinions facts by the origins of the job that predate ff.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

look up the origins lol

Spears are just pole with sharp in which was female druids original weapons.

Rogue do i even need 2 explain.

Archer again mostly requires Agility not strength just agility and Acrobats again in orgin terms males didn't have.

Gunner is a medium can go both ways so ill give u that.


dancer do i rlly need 2 explain the only male dancers in orgins were a fire dancers.

Mages well robes alone just prove femine jobs lol

this aren't opinions facts by the origins of the job that predate ff.

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What origins are you attempting to talk about?

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

What origins are you attempting to talk about?

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in all games jobs follow a orgin based on whatever but i use D&D one of the first rp based games


but even if u go into Mythology for it this orgins hold true.

the greatest mages in mythology were 3 sisters. Priestess aka healers again always female.

there is a feminine side to the healers
but other than that every other job is pretty neutral bit of a stretch other wise
id like a healer that has some angst to it though just for something different from other healers like mad scientist or a plague doctor kinda deal.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

in all games jobs follow a orgin based on whatever but i use D&D one of the first rp based games

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Okay so general mythos - well then pretty much everyone would be male.

In terms of the start of Fantasy as a genre you've got Tolkien and let's just say it doesn't seem like he liked girls much. Archers? Elves, and at least a seemingly egalitarian society in a lot of ways... but the famous one in terms of combat, especially archery, is Legolas - a man.

Swordplay/close range combat in general? I can't think of a single woman that participates, honestly, even with a dagger. I guess you could count the hobbit's shortswords as daggers but they're all guys too.

Magic? You've got Gandalf and the other wizards, Sauron, more elves... with the exception of Galadriel who I don't believe engages in combat in the books the only people who work magic at all are men.

The point of this ted talk about books I haven't read in like 15 years is that this concept of gendering jobs based on some kind of origin myth is stupid and outdated, stop furthering it. It didn't matter then and it certainly doesn't matter now.

In the immortal words of one Michael Jordan, "Stop it, get some help."

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Okay so general mythos - well then pretty much everyone would be male.

In terms of the start of Fantasy as a genre you've got Tolkien and let's just say it doesn't seem like he liked girls much. Archers? Elves, and at least a seemingly egalitarian society in a lot of ways... but the famous one in terms of combat, especially archery, is Legolas - a man.

Swordplay/close range combat in general? I can't think of a single woman that participates, honestly, even with a dagger. I guess you could count the hobbit's shortswords as daggers but they're all guys too.

Magic? You've got Gandalf and the other wizards, Sauron, more elves... with the exception of Galadriel who I don't believe engages in combat in the books the only people who work magic at all are men.

The point of this ted talk about books I haven't read in like 15 years is that this concept of gendering jobs based on some kind of origin myth is stupid and outdated, stop furthering it. It didn't matter then and it certainly doesn't matter now.

In the immortal words of one Michael Jordan, "Stop it, get some help."

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research greek mythology lol more exact Hekates followers

and even more modern ones strongest witch was morgana

also the greek god of war was a goddess mostly using bows.

greek witch circe again Femine strongest mage.


i guess for dancer u could use Xena maybe also very very few males used anything outside swords and axes in anything

Does anyone ever realize they're basically talking to a wall?

I'm gonna go have a good cold drink, this is just too stupid for me to deal with.

Good luck with your class, OP. Sorry to derail your thread for... that.

Healers don’t have to be feminine.
Minwu from FF2
Any other White Mage before FF14 gave them flower power.
Ignis in FF15 is the de facto healer of the party and he’s not feminine.

They managed to make Dancer gender neutral so why not a healer?
I’d be happy if they just removed lilies from WHM and changed its animations to something other than ballerina twirls, and same for AST, and give Fairy glamours to SCH to replace them with moogles.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Healers don’t have to be feminine.
Minwu from FF2
Any other White Mage before FF14 gave them flower power.
Ignis in FF15 is the de facto healer of the party and he’s not feminine.

They managed to make Dancer gender neutral so why not a healer?
I’d be happy if they just removed lilies from WHM and changed its animations to something other than ballerina twirls, and same for AST, and give Fairy glamours to SCH to replace them with moogles.

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ur joking right 15 was completely boy love type of game like yuri on ice anime all guys in a car just screams Bl

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

ur joking right 15 was completely boy love type of game like yuri on ice anime all guys in a car just screams Bl

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I mean, even if this was true, which it's not, a gay relationship is by definition twice as masculine as a straight one. XD

What the hell is wrong with everyone. Have people forgotten that masculine and feminine aren't the same thing as male and female. Reading through these post I can't tell if people are advocating for the terms proper usage or using them as a synonym for male and female.

Look all of the jobs are gender neutral, but some can lean more towards masculinity or femininity depending on your interpritation. Take the tanks for example. WAR and DRK are quite masculine, but PLD could be considered feminine since they are viewed as regal and dignified, and fight with grace and elegance. For the healers WHM and AST might be feminine but SCH could be seen as masculine since they are a tactical military job and rely on structure and precision. For the melee NIN, MNK, and DRG mostly masculine, but SAM could be viewed as feminine, mostly for the same reason as PLD. Then of the casters SMN is probably the most masculine job, but RDM is similar to PLD and SAM with its elegance, and BLM and BLU are both very theatrical.

As for the ranged. MCH is quite masculine, but there is something funny about BRD and DNC. Throughout the series, and especially in games with gender exclusivity, BRD is usually a male only job and DNC female only. But here's the thing, BRD is a feminine job and DNC is a masculine job. BRDs are meant to instill encouragement and soothe their allies, creating a calming peaceful environment; tranquility is a feminine trait. DNCs on the other hand are supposed to mesmerize and instill a sense of passion in people. Passion is a form of aggression, and whether it's bad or good, it creates a sense of power and energy; energy is a masculine trait.

So please don't categorize, and use the right labels. But truthfully none of that matters because its how you see it. It's not the outfit, or the weapon, or the skills, it's the concept and the overall lore of the job that makes it masculine or feminine.

And no DRG is not feminine because they use a pole and "pole dance", that's just stupid. Last I checked Chip 'n' Dale's was a thing.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

What the hell is wrong with everyone. <snip>

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Morbol did a pretty impressive job of trolling them ;).

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Originally Posted by Eloah

For the healers WHM and AST might be feminine but SCH could be seen as masculine since they are a tactical military job and rely on structure and precision.

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Like I said.
Remove the ballerina twirls from WHM and AST animations.
Give us "Egi Glamours" for Fairies.
Sorted.

I came in kinda hating on the idea... but... I think it would need explained a bit better now. it's interesting but it sounds as if it would need a huge MP pool.

So Gandolf was feminine? Is that what I'm reading here? I guess I'll have to think that next time I read/watch Lord of the Rings.

Original job idea, very interesting and could be very well balanced with split/mirrored damage like that. It would come down of course to all the skills that SE decided to give it, as they've already teased puppet master.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Morbol did a pretty impressive job of trolling them ;).

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eh lol I'm being honest

if your hiding in rng, using pets, using stealth aka shadows or magic

or non metal weapons news flash your not masculine if you want that use thats that require in ur face no hiding combat with heavy weapons

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

eh lol I'm being honest

if your hiding in rng, using pets, using stealth aka shadows or magic

or non metal weapons news flash your not masculine if you want that use thats that require in ur face no hiding combat with heavy weapons

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Not that I wanna fall for the trap, but I will. But, I don't think you understand what masculinity and femininity mean.

First in regards to the examples you gave. RNG is synonymous with gambling, gambling is a form of risk taking. Taking risks tends to be a masculine quality. Using a pet would mean being assertive, basically dominant to a submissive, as well as a sense of loyalty from the pet. Control and loyalty are masculine traits. I will give you that stealth might be more feminine, since it's based on doing things without notice and that is usually a feminine characteristics, but who's really to say. This all could be spun in any direction based on perception. I mean we view "healers" as female but aren't doctors, who are viewed usually as Male, healers too. Why can females only be "cooks" and not chefs, they do the same things after all. But its ones perception. So please stop categorizing, and let people choose for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Not that I wanna fall for the trap, but I will. But, I don't think you understand what masculinity and femininity mean.

First in regards to the examples you gave. RNG is synonymous with gambling, gambling is a form of risk taking. Taking risks tends to be a masculine quality. Using a pet would mean being assertive, basically dominant to a submissive, as well as a sense of loyalty from the pet. Control and loyalty are masculine traits. I will give you that stealth might be more feminine, since it's based on doing things without notice and that is usually a feminine characteristics, but who's really to say. This all could be spun in any direction based on perception. I mean we view "healers" as female but aren't doctors, who are viewed usually as Male, healers too. Why can females only be "cooks" and not chefs, they do the same things after all. But its ones perception. So please stop categorizing, and let people choose for themselves.

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You forgot to mention Robin Hood in there. Hid in shadows, used a wooden bow, didn't use a heavy weapon. He must be very feminine, yet could charm women just fine. Friar Tuck also seemed to wear robes and Little John used a giant staff.

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Originally Posted by Rosa_Frandlia

You forgot to mention Robin Hood in there. Hid in shadows, used a wooden bow, didn't use a heavy weapon. He must be very feminine, yet could charm women just fine. Friar Tuck also seemed to wear robes and Little John used a giant staff.

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YES!!! Those are great examples. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

eh mages in general are suppose 2 be like thst not just healers but lulu is main blm but she becomes a goddess when u get curage revive etc on her

hell even Seyemore was femboyish lol and girly

and u might say vivi but remember he married quinna so ...ya

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

lol just a fact the only males that are healers are femboy or child

which hope was a child so he healed in 13 lol
Plus if you got masculinity y would u even want 2 heal.

this is even true in wow lol

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just get off the internet.

seriously.

like stop paying for it, tell your parents you don't want it anymore.

because we don't want you.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

look up the origins lol

Spears are just pole with sharp in which was female druids original weapons.

Rogue do i even need 2 explain.

Archer again mostly requires Agility not strength just agility and Acrobats again in orgin terms males didn't have.

Gunner is a medium can go both ways so ill give u that.


dancer do i rlly need 2 explain the only male dancers in orgins were a fire dancers.

Mages well robes alone just prove femine jobs lol

this aren't opinions facts by the origins of the job that predate ff.

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If you're not simply pulling out ridiculous "facts" to be deliberately misleading (and even if you are, because I hate incorrect information) you seem to be mistaken about a lot of things. All these weapons have been used by males throughout history - wielded by warriors and armies.

Spears are one of the oldest weapons used by man - all you need is a sharpened stick, after all - and predate the Druids by at least hundreds of thousands of years. (And while I won't claim any knowledge of druid fighting techniques, I searched for the word "druid" in the article on spears, and vice versa, and neither page mentions the other.)

Rogue.... yes you'll need to explain. There's nothing specifically feminine about daggers or knives, or stabbing people with them. Ninjas are not seen as feminine.

Archery, from my understanding, does need strength. All the power of the arrow's flight comes from the archer's ability to pull the bow 'out of shape' so it springs back when released and sends that energy into shooting the arrow forwards.

And I have no idea where you're pulling the link to acrobats from. There's no connection between the two skills in or out of the game.

Dance is ancient and comes from many cultures, and certainly not limited to females. There's more to dancing than performance - there are folk dances, sacred and ceremonial dances, or fierce war dances. (See in-game: the Vanu Vanu, where the male version of the dance is the more active and powerful of the two.)

Robes are only "feminine" to modern people who equate them to dresses and therefore female clothing. They were historically worn by both genders, and are still worn in specific real-world settings. (Or do you consider university graduates and lawyers all "feminine" because it's still traditional to wear a robe in those situations?)

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

research greek mythology lol more exact Hekates followers

and even more modern ones strongest witch was morgana

also the greek god of war was a goddess mostly using bows.

greek witch circe again Femine strongest mage.


i guess for dancer u could use Xena maybe also very very few males used anything outside swords and axes in anything

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The links I made above talk about men using those other weapons. I'm not even going to try to find a specific refutation for "men only use swords and axes" because nobody would ever write an article stating that they don't. It's far too basic a fact that they use all kinds of weaponry.


The Greek god of war is Ares. You seem to be thinking of Artemis, "goddess of the hunt, the wilderness, wild animals, the Moon, and chastity".

From the list of Greek gods, perhaps you'd like to also note Apollo, "god of music, arts, knowledge, healing, plague, prophecy, poetry, manly beauty, and archery". (Healing and archery! All that feminity associated with a male god! What were the Greeks thinking?)

I'm not going to try to argue your other examples, because it's one thing to point to a specific character and say "this was a powerful female mage", but I'm not going to go through every other Greek mythological character to see if there are any others. And why be so insistent on one mythology of many?

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

eh lol I'm being honest

if your hiding in rng, using pets, using stealth aka shadows or magic

or non metal weapons news flash your not masculine if you want that use thats that require in ur face no hiding combat with heavy weapons

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...I really can't comprehend being so insistent on dividing things into masculine and feminine on such arbitrary rules.

You're going to find a lot of men using "non-metal weapons" throughout history, and if you dismiss them as feminine because of that, you're never going to see it as a man's weapon however many men use it. Your preconception of what "should" be a man's weapon is going to stop you from understanding what they actually are.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

As for the ranged. MCH is quite masculine, but there is something funny about BRD and DNC. Throughout the series, and especially in games with gender exclusivity, BRD is usually a male only job and DNC female only. But here's the thing, BRD is a feminine job and DNC is a masculine job. BRDs are meant to instill encouragement and soothe their allies, creating a calming peaceful environment; tranquility is a feminine trait. DNCs on the other hand are supposed to mesmerize and instill a sense of passion in people. Passion is a form of aggression, and whether it's bad or good, it creates a sense of power and energy; energy is a masculine trait.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

RNG is synonymous with gambling, gambling is a form of risk taking. Taking risks tends to be a masculine quality. Using a pet would mean being assertive, basically dominant to a submissive, as well as a sense of loyalty from the pet. Control and loyalty are masculine traits. I will give you that stealth might be more feminine, since it's based on doing things without notice and that is usually a feminine characteristics, but who's really to say. This all could be spun in any direction based on perception. I mean we view "healers" as female but aren't doctors, who are viewed usually as Male, healers too. Why can females only be "cooks" and not chefs, they do the same things after all. But its ones perception. So please stop categorizing, and let people choose for themselves.

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While I agree with your intention, I think you're putting way too much division on traits having "genders". "Categorising", as it were.

And "loyalty is a masculine trait"? Really?

Also, a bard's role isn't to "soothe their allies", it's to fire them up and give them courage for battle.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Like I said.
Remove the ballerina twirls from WHM and AST animations.
Give us "Egi Glamours" for Fairies.
Sorted.

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You may be overestimating the "twirliness" of AST. I've just been playing around with it. Only one or two spells involve spinning (and not in a way that resembles ballet), and some of those are role actions borrowed from WHM without even bothering to adjust the hand positions. They're still clearly holding an invisible staff.

I feel like the animations aren't divided on "masculine/feminine" but personality. I have a male Elezen that I use for bard and healer classes, and I think it looks fine for him. The same actions would probably look out-of-character for my melee-fighter Au Ra, who wouldn't be so elegant even if he did take up a mage class.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

While I agree with your intention, I think you're putting way too much division on traits having "genders". "Categorising", as it were.

And "loyalty is a masculine trait"? Really?

Also, a bard's role isn't to "soothe their allies", it's to fire them up and give them courage for battle.

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You aren't wrong about how I "genderfied" certain traits. That's why I said that these things are all up for interpretation. I didn't notice it in what was quoted, but it might not of been in those specific quotes. But, what I was trying to point out is we as individuals see various things as either masculine or feminine, and neither is wrong or right.

As for loyalty being a masculine trait. That stems more from comradery and brotherhood

In regards to Bard, we are actually saying the same thing. They are meant to make their allies feel comfortable in their environment, whether they are filled with fear, or dread, or disheartened, a Bard's job is to remind them of why they fight. That's what I meant by soothe, not as in pacify, but as in finding comfort. Whereas Dancers are supposed to do the opposite, creating bits of tension and stress. I guess in relation to the phrase "fired up" Bard's would be a controlled fire and Dancer's a wildfire.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Awesome, so you can heal with Flowers, Fairies, Sparkles or Dollies.

Good job retaining a sense of masculinity.
What am I talking about? Everyone knows only girls can play healer.

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My cute little kitty boy holding a stuffed animal close to him all cute like...... YEEEEEESSSSSSS