Destroying Server Economies

https://i.imgflip.com/2z99th.jpg[/url]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Yeah sure lets continue to pay 2 million for piece of high end gear on some servers where others are 400k. Let be sure to maintain that sillyness.

---

If these prices are adjusted to their respective economies, then their effective value should be roughly equal, even if the nominal price is different. Prior to today, a single gil on a higher pop server has more purchasing power than a single gil on a lower pop server, and thus 400k may seem cheaper, but is going to be roughly the same amount of purchasing power as 2 million gil on that other server. The only place where you get into an issue is where the population gets so low that there's no consistency to supply and demand, which allows for weird situations that don't auto-adjust to crop up, though that can happen with individual items on larger servers as well.

I personally will cheerfully server hop to find goods at a reasonable price! I make most of my gil selling food, and the prices on my food may drop some, but the hassle of dealing with local MB prices will also drop. If I can't find enough of what I want on Jenova without breaking the bank (or at all in some cases) another server is bound to have it. And I'm personally really hoping that new people coming to Jenova will mean my food has a wider buyer base and therefore sells better. I can't get anyone to buy my Ginger Salad or Imam Byaldi locally for anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nixxe

If these prices are adjusted to their respective economies, then their effective value should be roughly equal, even if the nominal price is different. Prior to today, a single gil on a higher pop server has more purchasing power than a single gil on a lower pop server, and thus 400k may seem cheaper, but is going to be roughly the same amount of purchasing power as 2 million gil on that other server. The only place where you get into an issue is where the population gets so low that there's no consistency to supply and demand, which allows for weird situations that don't auto-adjust to crop up, though that can happen with individual items on larger servers as well.

---

This is only true for people partaking in marketboard shenanigans.
For regular non-crafting, non-flipping players, 1gil is 1gil, because all of your gil is obtained through direct involvement with the games systems, not the dynamic marketboard economy.

This is why super inflated markets where those items are 2m instead of 400k are so bad. New players or players who don't have the time or patience for crafting don't stand a goddamn chance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pixelburst

I like to believe that Square Enix has destroyed individual server economies now. i'm an omnicrafter on Diabolos, and no one is going to buy things for the prices crafters have set here because you can get it cheaper on Balmung. It's a HUGE slap to the face. This is the ONLY thing I'm upset about with the update, otherwise the world visiting system is great.

---

Congratulations you've just experienced what real world businesses experience. It's called a Global Economy and you're now part of it. Where different countries (worlds) are now competing with you.

You have a few choices. Meet the new market supply and demand models, or quit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

This is only true for people partaking in marketboard shenanigans.
For regular non-crafting, non-flipping players, 1gil is 1gil, because all of your gil is obtained through direct involvement with the games systems, not the dynamic marketboard economy.

This is why supper inflated markets where those items are 2m instead of 400k are so bad. New players or players who don't have the time or patience for crafting don't stand a goddamn chance.

---

If you don't engage with the marketboard, then it doesn't matter either way. If you engage with the marketboard only to buy, that's your own fault and nobody should feel sorry for you. If you want to purchase other people's time and resources, then you will need to work for it and there's nothing wrong with that. Instead of vendoring stuff you don't want, put it up for sale. It's not difficult. Anyone can do it.

Server economies are not "messed up" or "destroyed" as you say.

First off, no one wants to buy things for crappy prices to begin with, they only tolerated them because there were no alternatives and little competition on your (suppliers) part. Now that you actually have to compete, you either get in line and play the game or you don't.

Second, the price disparity across worlds will reach an equilibrium eventually. Either way, you're going to have to adapt or lose out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nixxe

If you don't engage with the marketboard, then it doesn't matter either way. If you engage with the marketboard only to buy, that's your own fault and nobody should feel sorry for you. If you want to purchase other people's time and resources, then you will need to work for it and there's nothing wrong with that. Instead of vendoring stuff you don't want, put it up for sale. It's not difficult. Anyone can do it.

---

The vast majority of items don't make a profit on the marketboard. Which is why crafters dominate it.
It takes the same amount of time to craft something and sell it for 400k, as it does to sell it for 2m.
As I've just demonstrated why your 'purchasing power' argument is false, why should you make 2m while someone else only makes 400k?
Why should someone pay 2m for something that should only cost them 400k?

Why should your 1 hour of crafting time net you 2m, but my 1 hour of crafting time only make me 400k?

Why should Bob on server X purchase this item for 400k, after only 15 hours of dungeon grinding, but I can only purchase the item for 2m after 75 hours of dungeon grinding?

What makes your time worth more than mine?

It’s that simple, and that’s why these disparate economies are such a problem, and why this world visit system will be good for the economies.

It'll balance out, eventually. Sellers will stop producing because there's too much competition/undercutting and that'll leave bubbles of profit for people who stick to it here and there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

The vast majority of items don't make a profit on the marketboard. Which is why crafters dominate it.
It takes the same amount of time to craft something and sell it for 400k, as it does to sell it for 2m.
As I've just demonstrated why your 'purchasing power' argument is false, why should you make 2m while someone else only makes 400k?
Why should someone pay 2m for something that should only cost them 400k?

Why should your 1 hour of crafting time net you 2m, but my 1 hour of crafting time only make me 400k?

Why should Bob on server X purchase this item for 400k, after only 15 hours of dungeon grinding, but I can only purchase the item for 2m after 75 hours of dungeon grinding?

What makes your time worth more than mine?

It’s that simple, and that’s why these disparate economies are such a problem, and why this world visit system will be good for the economies.

---

You didn't prove my argument false. You added a caveat to it, which I was not unaware of, but which ultimately doesn't matter a whole lot because the player economy is the overwhelming influence in determining item value, not the fixed aspects of the economy. What I said about purchasing power is generally correct, whether you like it or not.

If you dungeon grind for gil, that's your fault for being bad at gil making. You don't deserve to have whatever you want just because you want it. You don't deserve to have whatever you want just because you did something you wanted to do. If you want stuff, work for it or go without. You say "players who don't have the patience for crafting," but those are just players who aren't willing to work for what they want. They have other options, though those may be less optimal. Why should I feel bad for them?

Now, to be clear, I don't care about this change. It won't affect me. It may even be an improvement for me, since I can now have access to the entire data center's material supply and potentially take control of a particular market across all servers. I just think it's erroneous to talk about "fair" prices or other such nonsense that people who think economics is the study of feelings like to bring up. The issue with the economies on lower pop servers wasn't the prices; it was the below threshold supply and demand that results in a really inconsistent economy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

Congratulations you've just experienced what real world businesses experience. It's called a Global Economy and you're now part of it. Where different countries (worlds) are now competing with you.

You have a few choices. Meet the new market supply and demand models, or quit.

---

Pretty sure you can't teleport to buy cheaper shoes in China in real life. Hardly the same concept.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kirsi

Pretty sure you can't teleport to buy cheaper shoes in China in real life. Hardly the same concept.

---

Yeah, the conditions on each server are also fundamentally the same aside from population, so it's an inherently even playing field. While there's some degree of separation because you 1) can't browse all servers' marketboards simultaneously and 2) can't sell on other servers, it functions more like a straight increase in population than globalization.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kirsi

Pretty sure you can't teleport to buy cheaper shoes in China in real life. Hardly the same concept.

---

Honestly, these days if you're buying shoes at all you're buying them from China, there's just a heck of a lot of people you're paying for those shoes from the point they're made to the point they get to you. If you wanted to buy them cheaper (provided their was a free way to get to China) you could just buy them there. Granted, it's a loose fit, but there are some parallels to be made... The economies have just gone from being inaccessible planets to being all lined up on the same street. Now you're window shopping worlds instead of having only one store to buy from. Much better for the consumer, much worse for the seller and with such disparity between worlds it will be a painful process until everything evens out.

"This too shall pass..."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Yeah sure lets continue to pay 2 million for piece of high end gear on some servers where others are 400k. Let be sure to maintain that sillyness.

---

You have to consider how long it takes to obtain the mats, then how much effort it took to become a crafter at said level and if cross-class skills were needed then you consider those as well. Then once you're done computing that, you add a bit for yourself. I was pretty shocked to see how cheap everything is in FF14 overall when I first came here. It's like people don't value themselves very much. But after playing for some time, I learned that there are market bots, gathering bots, and bots everywhere. Then there are those who have like 8 characters with 4 retainers each ruling the markets with discord notifications on price changes. I can see why people just give up and put their prices pretty low.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eriane_Elis

You have to consider how long it takes to obtain the mats, then how much effort it took to become a crafter at said level and if cross-class skills were needed then you consider those as well. Then once you're done computing that, you add a bit for yourself. I was pretty shocked to see how cheap everything is in FF14 overall when I first came here. It's like people don't value themselves very much. But after playing for some time, I learned that there are market bots, gathering bots, and bots everywhere. Then there are those who have like 8 characters with 4 retainers each ruling the markets with discord notifications on price changes. I can see why people just give up and put their prices pretty low.

---

For me it's, "Crap... new Expac in 2 months and my retainers are full of crap... Let me see if I can clean this out and still made a little profit in the venture!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pixelburst

i'm an omnicrafter on Diabolos, and no one is going to buy things for the prices crafters have set here because you can get it cheaper on Balmung.

---

Was anyone buying them off your MB before? Crafters on my server set the prices so stupid high that stuff doesn't sell, and people instead rely on commissioning crafters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pixelburst

I like to believe that Square Enix has destroyed individual server economies now. i'm an omnicrafter on Diabolos, and no one is going to buy things for the prices crafters have set here because you can get it cheaper on Balmung. It's a HUGE slap to the face. This is the ONLY thing I'm upset about with the update, otherwise the world visiting system is great.

---

Being familiar with Diabolos' market all I can say it that yall got what you deserved given how overpriced nearly everything has been on your server.

I welcome the potential balancing of the markets. I've been on both Balmung and Coeurl - one is a buyer's market, the other a seller's market. My dream for the market would be for all servers to eventually be linked directly, without the need for an actual visit. The initial transition may be interesting while both sides adjust, but it will balance out.

I'd also like to see the city tax removed. What exactly is the point of that anyway? Seems a bit antiquated at this point.

Can't wait for a data-center linked market board, honestly. Would make things way easier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enla

I mean let's be fair here, how much of the population is /actually/ going to actively server hop to find the best prices

---

*Sings* IIIIIIIII WILLLLLLLLL

In game econs will be fine in a few months. No one is going to go absolutely broke in 5 seconds and stay broke if they know how to make money. If demand goes up on larger servers and increases prices, smaller servers have the advantage of undercutting and therefore bringing in more capital. If Demand is cheaper on larger servers, smaller servers will have to compete, forcing prices to drop and incentivising crafting as a back means to make money. This is going to happen on an item by item basis and result in gil being more evenly distributed regardless of your realm. There will be some richer servers, and some poorer ones, but that is fine.

Also, btw, this might help solve some of the housing crisis. If servers are being a lot less relevant, transfering your character to a server where housing is available is a lot more justified now. We're just about playing in a defacto 1 overworld server now.

I imagine they will be making the market boards data center wide in the future and this is just the first step, so things don't explode fantastically on their side and on ours lol.

I know it wouldn't be perfect but I wish I could sell to an NPC at that point that will build a sell and buy price based on a few factors including quantity and demand of the item. So I can not think about undercutting. I just want it to sell fairly, I don't care to price gouge anyone and I don't care for checking the board every so often because people 1 gil undercut it all the time lol. As a data center wide market board might have a lot of wondrous undercutting potential xD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skivvy

I'd also like to see the city tax removed. What exactly is the point of that anyway? Seems a bit antiquated at this point.

---

It's a gil sink like repair/teleport costs but this one is also dynamic (% based), which makes it helpful. Although also annoying to us who have to pay the tax, who likes paying taxes? lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nixxe

You didn't prove my argument false. You added a caveat to it, which I was not unaware of, but which ultimately doesn't matter a whole lot because the player economy is the overwhelming influence in determining item value, not the fixed aspects of the economy. What I said about purchasing power is generally correct, whether you like it or not.

If you dungeon grind for gil, that's your fault for being bad at gil making. You don't deserve to have whatever you want just because you want it. You don't deserve to have whatever you want just because you did something you wanted to do. If you want stuff, work for it or go without. You say "players who don't have the patience for crafting," but those are just players who aren't willing to work for what they want. They have other options, though those may be less optimal. Why should I feel bad for them?

Now, to be clear, I don't care about this change. It won't affect me. It may even be an improvement for me, since I can now have access to the entire data center's material supply and potentially take control of a particular market across all servers. I just think it's erroneous to talk about "fair" prices or other such nonsense that people who think economics is the study of feelings like to bring up. The issue with the economies on lower pop servers wasn't the prices; it was the below threshold supply and demand that results in a really inconsistent economy.

---

You clearly dudnt read my post or the examples in it.
Nowhere did I say I wanted anything fir nothing.

It's a two way street. Unequal economies means effort is unequal.
Just as a non-market-player is penalised in the super inflated market, a crafter is penalised in the non inflated market. Or did you not catch the bit where I said:
Why should your 1 hour of crafting time net you 2m, but my 1 hour of crafting time only make me 400k?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

You clearly dudnt read my post or the examples in it.
Nowhere did I say I wanted anything fir nothing.

It's a two way street. Unequal economies means effort is unequal.
Just as a non-market-player is penalised in the super inflated market, a crafter is penalised in the non inflated market. Or did you not catch the bit where I said:
Why should your 1 hour of crafting time net you 2m, but my 1 hour of crafting time only make me 400k?

---

No, I read it. It just completely ignores that the purchasing power of a gil is not equal between servers in favor of fixating solely on the nominal price, which I had already explained to you was wrong. I'm not going to repeat myself endlessly because you choose not to learn.

I give it a few days and all the servers will be pretty equal. Balmung is gonna be notorious of being the server people go to to get cheap goods, but Balmung isn't going to be able to keep those prices low with the inflation of people coming in to buy their items. Small servers like Zalera will have to lower prices to keep people from going to Balmung to buy cheaper goods. It will equal out somewhere in the middle. And as someone who is an ex-Balmungian, one of the reason I went to a smaller server was to make money quickly. So really the people who are benefiting from this is Balmung crafters and buyers on other servers. On Balmung, my hq 380 gear will not cost 400k or less, and on a smaller server it will not cost me almost a million to buy the same thing. Why yes, boo, I can no longer abuse the smaller population servers to make money, but at the same time its good for crafters on Balmung to make money and help the overall populace have access to items. It will equal out somewhere in the middle and honestly will be a better capitalist model where there isn't just a handful of crafters who control the market and strangle players with ridiculous prices. It will also fix the inflation of goods Balmung has. How can this NOT be seen as good?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skivvy

I'd also like to see the city tax removed. What exactly is the point of that anyway? Seems a bit antiquated at this point.

---

It's just a straight up gil sink. That's all.

If anything, people on previously expensive servers are in the best position after this. You have a larger amount of savings than you would have if you couldn't sell high, and now the markets are gonna average out across datacenters, but you'll still have your savings advantage over someone who would have been from a cheaper server.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skivvy

I welcome the potential balancing of the markets. I've been on both Balmung and Coeurl - one is a buyer's market, the other a seller's market. My dream for the market would be for all servers to eventually be linked directly, without the need for an actual visit. The initial transition may be interesting while both sides adjust, but it will balance out.

I'd also like to see the city tax removed. What exactly is the point of that anyway? Seems a bit antiquated at this point.

---

Agreed. I mean either completely separate, which we no longer have and unlikely to go back to, or completely merged.

You mean this hurts your power to overcharge on crafted items or gathered nodes because others may charge a more reasonable rate for same item somewhere else? I think as this patch settles in you'll still will be able to cater to the lazier people who do not want to take the time to go bargain hunting somewhere else.

The situation will work out better for all in the end, you get more money for your goods if your economy was a buyer's market and if it was a seller's market, you get more customers and prices will go down.

People need to let the market normalize after this big change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arazehl

You mean this hurts your power to overcharge on crafted items or gathered nodes because others may charge a more reasonable rate for same item somewhere else? I think as this patch settles in you'll still will be able to cater to the lazier people who do not want to take the time to go bargain hunting somewhere else.

---

Overcharging on gathered items isn't really a thing. The raw materials market on any server that isn't perpetually closed to new characters (e.g. Balmung) has its prices set by the gathering bots as it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anselmet

It will also fix the inflation of goods Balmung has. How can this NOT be seen as good?

---

Damn right. The 90+ dusk leather I had on Balmung went from 80-120k a piece before are now selling easily for 400k a piece. I'm making out like a damn bandit.

Im just hoping it forces some items to finally be available on some servers. Im tired of buying super ethers on Mateus 1 or 2 at a time. Time to go shopping.

Eh, the problem is, is that some servers have crafting and market board bots that fund RWT, which crash the market. The problem of one or two servers will become the problem of all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Was anyone buying them off your MB before? Crafters on my server set the prices so stupid high that stuff doesn't sell, and people instead rely on commissioning crafters.

---

Just transfered to your server and if you think prices are high here, you should've seen my old server (Malboro). Hilarious that these prices are considered "high".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hydralus

Damn right. The 90+ dusk leather I had on Balmung went from 80-120k a piece before are now selling easily for 400k a piece. I'm making out like a damn bandit.

---

Glad to hear it. Hell people bought up all of my hq crafter and gathering gear this morning and its been sitting there for a good two weeks. I'm pretty excited.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

Eh, the problem is, is that some servers have crafting and market board bots that fund RWT, which crash the market. The problem of one or two servers will become the problem of all.

---

People really overlook how much of a problem this is, particularly on larger servers like Cactuar, Gilgamesh, and Balmung.

The whole thing about prices balancing out would be all fine and dandy if these guys didn't exist, but they have a lot more control over the market then many people are actually aware (Likely because they don't know/care enough to tell which people on their server are involved in the practice).

A single omnicrafter bot on my server singlehandedly tanked the prices on crafted gear from around 500K to 200Kish in the span of about a month because of them using an alt account bot to both constantly relist gear and undercut anyone who tries to sell lower then them.

eh. It will even out

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'd agree more with this if not for the fact that most server economies are heavily influenced by bot farmers who oft sell at price points so low as to scarcely be profitable for legitimate players to imitate.

These guys oft exist strictly to craft/gather and aren't actually putting any time or effort into the process so all they care about is pushing sales as quickly as possible.

As much as I hate to let them have their way, there really isn't any point to trying to sell stuff on the MB if I can make just as much if not more gil for the time spent through more entertaining activities like treasure maps and SE continues to be absolutely useless when it comes to banning them, so I think the economy is permanently screwed at this point.

---

I like the concept of World Visit balancing the Market Boards across the data centre in theory but I feel like the devs have given bot farms/botters potential control of the entire data center's market boards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

People really overlook how much of a problem this is, particularly on larger servers like Cactuar, Gilgamesh, and Balmung.

---

They're already at it:
https://imgur.com/1uqS8z4.png