Request for Utsusemi

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

90% of content was placed into easy-mode with an evasion tank and medium/hard mode with a blood tank, 10% vice versa. Come on man, use your brain for once.



Are you serious?

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/gui...nsus/10/2.html

Ninja 5.43%, Paladin 3.83%.

Don't come up with bulls**t 50-50 statistics and false dichotomies.




Irrelevant, what decided the importance of a tank in FFXI was how much damage they took over time. NIN beat the crap out of PLD for practically everything except some really serious HNMs.

---

When was the last time you played XI before lvl cap raise for real NIN was not tanking Cerb Khimera or any of the SEA bosses idk what game you was playing but it certainly wasn't XI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

When was the last time you played XI before lvl cap raise for real NIN was not tanking Cerb Khimera or any of the SEA bosses idk what game you was playing but it certainly wasn't XI.

---

No, I never claimed that NIN was tanking the hardest hitting HNMs of the bunch. Those were indeed reserved for PLD/WAR, PLD/NIN and the rare PLD/DRK.

But NIN was tanking everything else, AND the exp parties that led up to end-game. You really need to get rid of this poor habit of not actually reading what I say and claiming that I said things I never did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Somehow I seriously doubt this, because for everything except Cerberus/Tiamat/Vrtra/PW/[insert 5 hour long HNM here], people grabbed NINs to tank.

---

Eh i think it came down to your LS preferences, some LS have better NINs some have better PLDs, my LS usually does things with PLD/NIN because we only have 1-2 reliable tank NINs at disposal due to our LS size.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Somehow I seriously doubt this, because for everything except Cerberus/Tiamat/Vrtra/PW/[insert 5 hour long HNM here], people grabbed NINs to tank.

---

Your talking to a pld main in XI who had an Aegis who did end game for 6 years and competed vs other ls. NEVER seen a nin tank for any of those mobs cause a nin would die if they ever got hit by one of those mobs with no shadows up. Also no one is using thf on these bosses and NIN dmg was ass on these said bosses. You never fought any of these mobs.

You See these pld/nin tanking cerb in this vid... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQSmb8bEgIM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

90% of content was placed into easy-mode with an evasion tank and medium/hard mode with a blood tank, 10% vice versa. Come on man, use your brain for once.

---

You mean 90% of mobs didn't use AoE abilities/magic that either wiped or negated shadows? Is it the job or the mob? I don't have to use my brain on these forums.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Are you serious?

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/gui...nsus/10/2.html

Ninja 5.43%, Paladin 3.83%.

Don't come up with bulls**t 50-50 statistics and false dichotomies.

---

I see that BLM is at the top of this list. Guess I missed the part where Dark Seal was THE SHIT for tanking, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Irrelevant, what decided the importance of a tank in FFXI was how much damage they took over time. NIN beat the crap out of PLD for practically everything except some really serious HNMs.

---

Again, the job or the mob?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Eh i think it came down to your LS preferences, some LS have better NINs some have better PLDs, my LS usually does things with PLD/NIN because we only have 1-2 reliable tank NINs at disposal due to our LS size.

---

I agree with this to a point. PLD was generally easier to work with if you didn't have a geared NIN tank. The LSes that were on my server, however, all had geared NIN tanks (luckily or unluckily, whatever you think), and PLDs were not used on the server at all except for the hardest HNMs and in smaller LSes that were trying to catch up.

The reason is because a skilled or well geared NIN tank was better than PLD in practically every situation except the hard NMs, mostly thanks to Utsusemi. Less damage taken, more damage dealt, and the enmity generated was enough to keep monsters off the DDs. And they doubled as DPS in the rare case where more tanks showed up for content than needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xoo

You mean 90% of mobs didn't use AoE abilities/magic that either wiped or negated shadows? Is it the job or the mob? I don't have to use my brain on these forums.

---

Yeah, mobs used skills that wiped shadows. It didn't matter, because the NIN could get his secondary Utsusemi skill back up before the mob resumed standard auto-attacks, and nothing serious happened.

Quote:

---

I see that BLM is at the top of this list. Guess I missed the part where Dark Seal was THE SHIT for tanking, etc.

---

Please don't tell me you're being serious with this line, because if you are, I'm going to go on a f**king rampage. You can't possibly believe that this is a logical, reasonable response to anything.

Quote:

---

Again, the job or the mob?

---

This is more relevant in a sense, because now you're getting closer to the root of the issue. The majority of fights in FFXI favored NIN tanks, both because of monster attack mechanics and NIN defense mechanics. Just because a few fights favored PLD tanks does not mean that the two were on equal grounds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

I agree with this to a point. PLD was generally easier to work with if you didn't have a geared NIN tank. The LSes that were on my server, however, all had geared NIN tanks (luckily or unluckily, whatever you think), and PLDs were not used on the server at all except for the hardest HNMs and in smaller LSes that were trying to catch up.

The reason is because a skilled or well geared NIN tank was better than PLD in practically every situation except the hard NMs, mostly thanks to Utsusemi. Less damage taken, more damage dealt, and the enmity generated was enough to keep monsters off the DDs. And they doubled as DPS in the rare case where more tanks showed up for content than needed.

---

Last time i'm gonna respond to this but PLD/NIN beat nin in every way lol Atonement > every nin ws vs hnm's for dmg. Pld had an easier time getting shadows up cause flash and shield traits which stopped spells from getting interrupted, more hp, more surviving skills, generated more hate from flash, and they could match nin in haste gear....

Wolfie, yanno, maybe I'd be a bit more serious and even bothered if your head blows off your neck or you kick a few kittens if you would simply address the OP and not FFXI. Deal?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

Last time i'm gonna respond to this but PLD/NIN beat nin in every way lol Atonement > every nin ws vs hnm's for dmg. Pld had an easier time getting shadows up cause flash and shield traits which stopped spells from getting interrupted, more hp, more surviving skills, generated more hate from flash, and they could match nin in haste gear....

---

Dude, what part of "PLD was the better tank for HNMs" do you not get? Have I not said that like 10 f**king times already? PLD/WAR and PLD/NIN were the go-to tanks for the hardest hitting NMs because the tank needed high HP and defense.

The rest of end-game, which included Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, lesser HNMs, KSNM, Sky, some tier1 and tier2 Sea NMs, and practically everything else was better with a NIN tank. Can you get this through your head?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xoo

Wolfie, yanno, maybe I'd be a bit more serious and even bothered if your head blows off your neck or you kick a few kittens if you would simply address the OP and not FFXI. Deal?

---

I addressed the OP. Utsusemi is ridiculous and should not be implemented in this game. The discussion then went on a tangent to NIN vs PLD tanks in FFXI.

Relative to Sentinel, I think they should make Second Wind either PGL exclusive or a Lv40 skill. Same with Raise and any other really useful ability in the game. We can't have indespensable abilities in the game! It will unbalance the cosmos!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xoo

Relative to Sentinel, I think they should make Second Wind either PGL exclusive or a Lv40 skill. Same with Raise and any other really useful ability in the game. We can't have indespensable abilities in the game! It will unbalance the cosmos!!

---

Do you even know what Utsusemi is?

It's basically a decoy with 5sec recast, if you can't see this being broken then lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Dude, what part of "PLD was the better tank for HNMs" do you not get? Have I not said that like 10 f**king times already? PLD/WAR and PLD/NIN were the go-to tanks for the hardest hitting NMs because the tank needed high HP and defense.

The rest of end-game, which included Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, lesser HNMs, KSNM, Sky, some tier1 and tier2 Sea NMs, and practically everything else was better with a NIN tank. Can you get this through your head?

---

I'll just agree your ls played the game different and everyone else did it the pld way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

I addressed the OP. Utsusemi is ridiculous and should not be implemented in this game. The discussion then went on a tangent to NIN vs PLD tanks in FFXI.

---

Ridiculous in its implementation regarding FFXI. This is XIV. Let's all sing along now:

Let's give it to Bard!
Let's give it to Bard!
WHAT DID YOU SAY?!
I SAID
Let's give it to Bard!
I CAN'T HEAR YOU!
Let's give it to Bard!
LET'S GIVE IT TO BARD!

/picks his nose and flicks it at Wolfie.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xoo

Relative to Sentinel, I think they should make Second Wind either PGL exclusive or a Lv40 skill. Same with Raise and any other really useful ability in the game. We can't have indespensable abilities in the game! It will unbalance the cosmos!!

---

They should either:

1. Be redundant as abilities on other classes
2. Be retuned to not be required for practically everything

The reason a problem exists with ______ ability on _______ class or job is because it becomes a staple for most activities in the game. Once it does that, leveling that class for that ability becomes a de facto requirement for playing the game, because the community as a whole imposes that requirement.

Balancing is an ongoing process that always has to be monitored to make sure that no single ability or class vastly outranks everything else in usefulness, and if it does, it does not stay at the top for long. It's better for the health of the game as a whole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Do you even know what Utsusemi is?

It's basically a decoy with 5sec recast, if you can't see this being broken then lol.

---

Uhh, do you know what Utsusemi was? Ichi was a spell granting 3 shadows which negated single-target attacks every 30 seconds, along with its 2nd tier, Utsusemi Ni, which was a spell granting 4 shadows which negated single-target attacks every 45 seconds.

Did I miss something, or is Bard getting Flash? O.O

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

They should either:

1. Be redundant as abilities on other classes
2. Be retuned to not be required for practically everything

The reason a problem exists with ______ ability on _______ class or job is because it becomes a staple for most activities in the game. Once it does that, leveling that class for that ability becomes a de facto requirement for playing the game, because the community as a whole imposes that requirement.

Balancing is an ongoing process that always has to be monitored to make sure that no single ability or class vastly outranks everything else in usefulness, and if it does, it does not stay at the top for long. It's better for the health of the game as a whole.

---

Cross classing skills is easy to fix they could make sent only 10% dmg reduction for non Gla/PLD classes/jobs...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Weren't you saying how you want quality in what SE does? Did you take the proper time to think about what Utsusemi did to FFXI and what it would do to FFXIV?

---

All it would do to FFXIV is make an easy game even easier :\

Guys, the OP is trollin'

Y'all stupid?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

All it would do to FFXIV is make an easy game even easier :\

---

Yes, I suddently forgot that there's virtually no threat of death already. Sorry everyone, shut it down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xoo

Uhh, do you know what Utsusemi was? Ichi was a spell granting 3 shadows which negated single-target attacks every 30 seconds, along with its 2nd tier, Utsusemi Ni, which was a spell granting 4 shadows which negated single-target attacks every 45 seconds.

Did I miss something, or is Bard getting Flash? O.O

---

so you have 7 shadows in approximates every 37second [(30sec+45sec)/2] because they don't share recast timer. That is 1 shadow per 5,28seconds. My point still stands.

This doesn't have anything to do with tanking abilities, Utsusemi was broken on any job. It boosts anyone's survival ability by huge margin. It was used in every hard solo attempt, not only in tanking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Guys, the OP is trollin'

Y'all stupid?

---

I'm not trolling. I'm stupid. But apparently I speak for the majority, so the majority rules!

hmm when i think of ninja.. I imagine stuff like different varieties of hand sign jutsu and shadow clone jutsu for those all or nothing moments.

edit:
if SE implement ninja I hope they at least use the different hand sign jutsu for casting ninjutsu.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

Cross classing skills is easy to fix they could make sent only 10% dmg reduction for non Gla/PLD classes/jobs...

---

This is what balance work is, so sure. I would always welcome something like this. I'm not sure what numbers would fit perfectly (10%, 20%, 5%, something else), but tuning numbers is a huge thing and helps a lot to make sure abilities and classes aren't overpowered (or underpowered).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chardrizard

so you have 7 shadows in approximates every 37second [(30sec+45sec)/2] because they don't share recast timer. That is 1 shadow per 5,28seconds. My point still stands.

This doesn't have anything to do with tanking abilities, Utsusemi was broken on any job. It boosts anyone's survival ability by huge margin. It was used in every hard solo attempt, not only in tanking.

---

Did we factor in mob attack speed/accuracy/spells/abilities as well? How is 100 shadows relevant when the mob can take 99 of them in a split second, and repeatedly?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xoo

Did we factor in mob attack speed/accuracy/spells/abilities as well? How is 100 shadows relevant when the mob can take 99
of them in a split second?

---

Average mob attack speed in FFXI was 2 seconds. Miss and evades also take precedence over hits. 7 images/37 seconds, or 1 image/5.3 seconds was way more than enough to take less overall damage than a PLD tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Average mob attack speed in FFXI was 2 seconds. Miss and evades also take precedence over hits. 7 images/37 seconds, or 1 image/5.3 seconds was way more than enough to take less overall damage than a PLD tank.

---

That number is also without factoring haste 25% gear, lulz.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chardrizard

That number is also without factoring haste 25% gear, lulz.

---

Yeah.

Hence why a skilled, well geared NIN tank would mop the floor with a PLD tank for everything except like 8 NMs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Average mob attack speed in FFXI was 2 seconds. Miss and evades also take precedence over hits. 7 images/37 seconds, or 1 image/5.3 seconds was way more than enough to take less overall damage than a PLD tank.

---

And we all know that Ninjas lost very precious enmity with each shadow taken. Can we recall mobs that had multi-hit Weaponskills? Triple-bats? Colibri? Can't think of any others right now.

Yet again, AGAIN, is Bard getting Flash??!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xoo

And we all know that Ninja's lost very precious enmity with each shadow taken. Can we recall mobs that had multi-hit Weaponskills? Triple-bats? Colibri? Can't think of any others right now.

---

It was negligible. The enmity lost by a NIN on a multi-hit mob WS was infinitely better than the HP lost by a PLD tank on the same mob WS.

SE tried to balance Utsusemi several times and failed each time. it had some minor faults, but it was still by far and large the best defensive skill in the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xoo

I'm not trolling. I'm stupid. But apparently I speak for the majority, so the majority rules!

---

Please speak for yourself, no one person is the voice of everyone :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xoo

And we all know that Ninjas lost very precious enmity with each shadow taken. Can we recall mobs that had multi-hit Weaponskills? Triple-bats? Colibri? Can't think of any others right now.

---

Someone needs enmity lesson, you lose alot more enmity in FFXI when u took damage than losing shadow. You can factor multi-hit WS of course, but that is where healers are gonna cover you until your recast is up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

It was negligible. The enmity lost by a NIN on a multi-hit mob WS was infinitely better than the HP lost by a PLD tank on the same mob WS.

SE tried to balance Utsusemi several times and failed each time. it had some minor faults, but it was still by far and large the best defensive skill in the game.

---

Either way, I think we can agree that Paladin had its time to shine as well as Ninja. Utsusemi didn't bury Paladin, so stop talking as if it did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Someone needs enmity lesson, you lose alot more enmity in FFXI when u took damage than losing shadow. You can factor multi-hit WS of course, but that is where healers are gonna cover you until your recast is up.

---

I didn't even consider this; forgot that damage taken reduced enmity.

Is there anything NIN did that wasn't totally better than PLD?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xoo

Either way, I think we can agree that Paladin had its time to shine as well as Ninja. Utsusemi didn't bury Paladin, so stop talking as if it did.

---

I will keep talking as if it did, because it did. PLD was a second rate tank for everything except the dozen HNMs where it eeked out a victory over NIN. You haven't yet showed me any proof that PLD was on equal footing with NIN, and i have hard numbers that showed that NIN was faring better than PLD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Someone needs enmity lesson, you lose alot more enmity in FFXI when u took damage than losing shadow. You can factor multi-hit WS of course, but that is where healers are gonna cover you until your recast is up.

---

And as a Ninja, when your shadows drop and the mob suddenly takes everything you loved as a child?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

I will keep talking as if it did, because it did. PLD was a second rate tank for everything except the dozen HNMs where it eeked out a victory over NIN. You haven't yet showed me any proof that PLD was on equal footing with NIN, and i have hard numbers that showed that NIN was faring better than PLD.

---

lol no you did not, like i said PLD/NIN took less dmg than nin no matter what you say and did more dmg. Ill say it again Atonement was better than Blade: Jin vs every high lvl mob in the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xoo

And as a Ninja, when your shadows drop and the mob suddenly takes everything you loved as a child?

---

k ur dumb, i'm so ashamed it took me 8 pages in this topic and 4 pages in another to figure it out.