It's time to add restrictions for sub-role dps in party

While healers may get revamped, the other roles that got additions are getting revamps (DRK and MCH) as well so it's really more of a consolation prize if anything IMO.

I don't think this is needed.

Duty finder content is casual/easy enough that you don't need this distinction.

Savage/Extreme fights you can form your own parties in PF and control your party makeup.

So I don't feel anything is really added by making an official distinction.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

Lol well believe what you want, it happened. I'm inclined to believe devs know more about what the game needs than you. I'm sure it feels bad for healers, but everyone has their own point of view and the two groups that got new jobs had just as much reason to get one. I personally don't main healer or ranged dps, I'm just sick of people using faulty logic in their arguments.

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No one is forcing you to read or respond to my posts. Scroll away if you're sick of playing SE defense force.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

A new healer would have been great asI love my casters and healers, but they chose ranged physical dps. Also, players need to keep in mind we have a combat revamp coming up. One or more of the healers could be redesigned. It happened to the bard twice which drastically changed it’s playstyle. Be patient. See what happens.

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Battle system changes are hardly unique to healers though. All jobs are gonna be changing in some capacity. It's not a replacement for a new job.

And I have been patient. They've done basically nothing for the whole of SB to address healer balance. And now we're being told to wait another 2 years. Nothing suggests that it won't be more of the same.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

I never said they weren't different. Of course they play differently. But they're still undeniably DPS.

"but the devs split them like that!!!" I don't care. It's a poor justification for ignoring healers.

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No you didn't but you're implying that they're similar enough to support your claim that healers are being overlooked while dps are getting favouritism. The three types of dps play quite differently to each other. Hell, melee dps have more in common with tanks than they do with the other dps.

We need more ranged phys dps. Only having two dps with refresh is silly. Every other role has more than two classes so you have more options when weighing what buffs and utility you need.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

They have cited balance again for reasons of no healer, but they've struggled to balance BRD/MCH and they're getting a new job added to their sub-role of a sub-role that has the same importance as the supports.

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It's more that they haven't got mch right, not that they can't get both right. Bard is doing fine. It's mch that needs some changes.

The healer balance needs some serious attention. Whm is most times considered merely the prog healer, and as far as depth goes the class is ludicrously lacking. Sch has shields, burst heals, a secondary resource and two pets with unique abilities. Ast has two healing stances that require different healing styles and a card mechanic which has elements of both support and and offence that requires split second decision making as well as planning ahead. Whm has heals...and basically nothing else. The lily gauge is mostly ignored in its current state. It is both lacking in utility and interesting mechanics. This seriously needs to change.

Does this warrant not bringing in a fourth healer? I don't think anyone can truly say until we see what's actually going on with them in 5.0. Some significant changes to the combat system are also coming. Perhaps when we know what those are SE's decisions surrounding the new classes and healers will make more sense.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

They struggled with the tanks until a ways into the expansion and they're getting a new job for the mind-boggling reason that 4 tanks are easier to balance than 3. But healers? All of a sudden, balance is ABSOLUTELY PARAMOUNT.

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Tanks are a very different story because there is always a MT and an OT. Yoshida said in an interview recently that because of this it results in one of the tanks seeming undesirable. No tank works equally well with any other, which inevitably means one will always appear as a much weaker choice. Bringing in a fourth evens that out. Whether that works out well or not remains to be seen but I can see the logic behind the decision.

And no I'm not happy we're not getting a new healer. However instead of tearing my hair out over this I am expecting the healer balance to be vastly improved in ShB. Mainly whm because as I mentioned before it is in great need of attention. If whm becomes a healer with more value and actually gets some interesting mechanics, then I'll be happy with waiting longer for a fourth healer.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

No you didn't but you're implying that they're similar enough to support your claim that healers are being overlooked while dps are getting favouritism..

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I'm not implying anything. I'm saying it. They play differently, but they're still DPS, and healers don't have that option. It's fine that's you don't agree.

DPS are absolutely getting favouritism, because most people who play this game are DPS. From a business standpoint it makes sense. I can be salty about it though.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

We need more ranged phys dps. Only having two dps with refresh is silly. Every other role has more than two classes so you have more options when weighing what buffs and utility you need.

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Refresh is powerful but it's hardly mandatory outside of Ultimate and high lvl Savage. It's not high up on the list as to why there needs to be another phys ranged.

Every other role has more than two classes, but how often are more than two of these jobs used in content? Triple melee and triple caster comps generally aren't used seriously.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It's more that they haven't got mch right, not that they can't get both right. Bard is doing fine. It's mch that needs some changes.

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I agree. MCH feels bad. But I brought it up because there's an imbalance between BRD/MCH and they're adding a new job to the pool. What's to say it won't make it worse?

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Originally Posted by Penthea

The healer balance needs some serious attention...
...This seriously needs to change.

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It does need changing. I thought they were doing that over this past two years of SB. But I guess not. And yes, the WHM lily system is a joke.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Some significant changes to the combat system are also coming. Perhaps when we know what those are SE's decisions surrounding the new classes and healers will make more sense.

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I'm not holding my breath.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Tanks are a very different story because there is always a MT and an OT...

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There's literally no difference between MT and OT, other than who is better at pulling the boss, and Warrior is best because of Unchained+Equilibrium.

If they gave all the tanks a similar tools, there wouldn't be a problem with MT/OT.

Adding a job for that reasoning is confusing to me.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

And no I'm not happy we're not getting a new healer. However instead of tearing my hair out over this I am expecting the healer balance to be vastly improved in ShB. Mainly whm because as I mentioned before it is in great need of attention. If whm becomes a healer with more value and actually gets some interesting mechanics, then I'll be happy with waiting longer for a fourth healer.

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I don't think it'll drastically change. Maybe WHM will climb out of delete tier, but I don't see the game changing massively.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

Every other role has more than two classes, but how often are more than two of these jobs used in content? Triple melee and triple caster comps generally aren't used seriously.

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It's not about having triple anything. Not everyone who dislikes bard plays mch instead. Not everyone who dislikes mch plays bard instead. Some people dislike playing both. Adding another class to the role increases the likelihood that a player will like at least one of the classes within that role, which in turn makes things easier for teams to have everything they need and/or want.

Ahem. There already are restrictions for DPS sub-roles in Raid Finder. You need 1 melee DPS, 1 physical ranged DPS, 1 magical ranged DPS, and 1 other DPS.

https://i.imgur.com/BXVgGSi.png

2 melee dps, 1 ranged dps, and 1 magical dps is only a community made meta. You could easily have 1 melee dps, 2 physical ranged DPS, and 1 ranged magical DPS.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

Dancer was added to the ranged DPS and one of the reason for that is because we have only 2 of them.

So Yoshida and many players state that a sub-role DPS have the same importance as healers and tanks.

But why then, sub-role are not restricted in party ?
DPS spots must be separated now as sub-role spot.

Il will let the 4 man party aside, but for the 8 man party the restriction should be :
- 2 tanks
- 2 healers
- 2 melee dps
- 1 ranged dps
- 1 caster dps

If you are not agree, then sub-role dps is not as important as healer and tank, and so ranged dps shouldn't had the priority to get another job over the healers.

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I'm trying to come up with some way to explain how stupid this is, but I can't. THis is one of the dumbest things I've read on these forums. At least the Male Viera threads are shitpost worthy, this is just complete ignorance on job balancing.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

No one is forcing you to read or respond to my posts. Scroll away if you're sick of playing SE defense force.



Battle system changes are hardly unique to healers though. All jobs are gonna be changing in some capacity. It's not a replacement for a new job.

And I have been patient. They've done basically nothing for the whole of SB to address healer balance. And now we're being told to wait another 2 years. Nothing suggests that it won't be more of the same.

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Check out Mr.happy’s interview. Yoshida gave insight on what we might see in May. They feel the pure heals and barrier healer dichotomy isn’t working. And they want to fix this first. Healers might be about to see some major reworking. Only time will tell.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

Dancer was added to the ranged DPS and one of the reason for that is because we have only 2 of them.

So Yoshida and many players state that a sub-role DPS have the same importance as healers and tanks.

But why then, sub-role are not restricted in party ?
DPS spots must be separated now as sub-role spot.

Il will let the 4 man party aside, but for the 8 man party the restriction should be :
- 2 tanks
- 2 healers
- 2 melee dps
- 1 ranged dps
- 1 caster dps

If you are not agree, then sub-role dps is not as important as healer and tank, and so ranged dps shouldn't had the priority to get another job over the healers.

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So...what it already is? Have you looked at an 8 man duty's requirements? "2 Tanks, 2 Healers, 1 Melee DPS, 1 Caster DPS, 1 Ranged DPS, 1 Other DPS" where the "Other DPS" is allowing the group to double up on one of the other categories of DPS. Typically people go 2 Melee, but 1M/1C/2R, 1M/2C/1R and 2M/1C/1R are all equally valid there.

EDIT: Thank you lulunami for posting the image :D

Also when you're fully premade, any group comp goes. 8 WAR manmodes were a popular thing in 3.x.

I'd rather see people doing subpar damage for their job get booted automatically.

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Originally Posted by Fland

Combat revamp happens every expansion tho, so it's not really something that healers specifically look forward in place of a new healer. It'd happen regardless new healer coming or not.
Also I doubt they will completely redesigned the current healers, since the amount of works will just be similar with adding a new healer.

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I had to do a double take to make sure i read this correctly. No, not even a little bit. The amount of work it takes to design a new healer and balance it isn't in the same realm as revamping and tweaking the current roster of healers. It's like night and day in comparison.

All that would do is hurt queue times since it would only effect content you queue for.

FYI you can go 1 tank and 1 healer if you want for your PF 8 man parties.

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Originally Posted by Fland

Combat revamp happens every expansion tho, so it's not really something that healers specifically look forward in place of a new healer. It'd happen regardless new healer coming or not.
Also I doubt they will completely redesigned the current healers, since the amount of works will just be similar with adding a new healer.

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Well of course healers want a new toy. All player types would love a new toy. However, based on the reason stated by the devs there is a potential for a substantial healer rework. At least there was a consolation prize. And now based on the Mrhappy interview with Yoshida My opinion people need to be patient is even stronger. Short story they don’t think the pure heal vs barrier dichotomy is working out and they want to fix that first. So one or more of the current healers could possibly be vastly different come 5.0. We really are at a wait and see time period.