BA shows that we fail as a Community (big time)

We're all petty in our own ways deep down

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Originally Posted by Sheriyana

Yeap, this is it. Weren't the relic chimera and hydra just open world bosses at first that were turned into trials since they were almost impossible to complete the original way? That's the impression I've gotten anyway, I never made it to 50 at 2.0 launch. I wonder how they're going to implement the Yojimbo trial from the fanfest if it's not part of Hildibrand, Yojimbo is a key part of the Stormblood Hildibrand story and I can't really see them not tie the trial into that considering Yojimbo's position in it. I mean they could just randomly throw him into Orbonne in the place of that living armor trash miniboss but you'd think they'd have learned their lesson from the Proto-Ultima backlash.

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I think they were? The 2.16 patch notes say that the fights "can now be challenged via the Duty Finder" (emphasis mine), which makes me think as much, but I didn't start playing until last year, so I can't confirm it personally. As for the Yojimbo trial, I'm really not certain; I'd assume that they'd make it available through the Hildibrand quests because nothing else would make sense, and maybe they just walked back on their previous position or something (wouldn't be the first time...).

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Originally Posted by Seraph522

I think they were? The 2.16 patch notes say that the fights "can now be challenged via the Duty Finder" (emphasis mine), which makes me think as much, but I didn't start playing until last year, so I can't confirm it personally. As for the Yojimbo trial, I'm really not certain; I'd assume that they'd make it available through the Hildibrand quests because nothing else would make sense, and maybe they just walked back on their previous position or something (wouldn't be the first time...).

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That's as much as I've managed to find out as well, but they're pretty much dungeon level bosses like your original point was. And yeah, I'd like Yojimbo to get his own trial, he really deserves it, the encounter in Kugane Castle was pretty pathetic but all we can really do is wait to find out what they're doing. At least if it's part of Hildibrand that would mean we're getting the trial a few days after the Tokyo fanfest with the rest of the story and the last Hildibrand.

I have only managed to get into BA with enough people to actually try it out two times.

First time there are three groups, one group on one side and two on the other.

We manage to get to the first boss, but then the tank in the other group on that side immediately pulls the boss, before the group on the other side can arrive at their boss.

A few seconds later the boss does a 999999 damage unavoidable room-wide AOE.
Wipe.

The tank who pulled is all "WTF?" and starts cussing.

Second time around in the corridor full of trash mobs leading up to the first boss one DPS is all "Big pulls!" and when ignored he runs ahead, aggroes multiple trash mobs and then RUNS BACK INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE PARTY WITH THEM CHASING HIM.

Wipe.

And the DPS with his "Ranged attack aggro the mobs and then run back to the tank because BIG PULLS are FASTAH" acts like it's my fault we all died.
Because apparantly expecting me to be able to tank more than one of those trash mobs when 5 magicite in defense, Shield Oath AND a defensive cooldown still means 10k+ damage per auto is totally reasonable.

For The Great Dragons Sake, you can't treat this place like a normal dungeon!

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Originally Posted by Reinha

If content doesn't inspire people to work together then it's the design that has failed. 24 man raids do just fine in getting a big group of total strangers to co-operate and teach each other.

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Oh that so is that y everyone is always yelling at each other <.> or going all grammar police on macros

So BA shows we failed? Not the mindset of the average community member when tackling content? You'd think having over half the community getting carried in EX fights would be a pretty damning sign of failure.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

I have only managed to get into BA with enough people to actually try it out two times.

First time there are three groups, one group on one side and two on the other.

We manage to get to the first boss, but then the tank in the other group on that side immediately pulls the boss, before the group on the other side can arrive at their boss.

A few seconds later the boss does a 999999 damage unavoidable room-wide AOE.
Wipe.

The tank who pulled is all "WTF?" and starts cussing.

Second time around in the corridor full of trash mobs leading up to the first boss one DPS is all "Big pulls!" and when ignored he runs ahead, aggroes multiple trash mobs and then RUNS BACK INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE PARTY WITH THEM CHASING HIM.

Wipe.

And the DPS with his "Ranged attack aggro the mobs and then run back to the tank because BIG PULLS are FASTAH" acts like it's my fault we all died.
Because apparantly expecting me to be able to tank more than one of those trash mobs when 5 magicite in defense, Shield Oath AND a defensive cooldown still means 10k+ damage per auto is totally reasonable.

For The Great Dragons Sake, you can't treat this place like a normal dungeon!

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This is generally what happen when you get a pure pug pt. I guess in a way discord pt are pug too since it is not a static but an organized pug pt.

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once those Parties manage to get into a instance together and people figured "wait, there are 4 parties int here who wanna do BA" THEN all of a sudden everyone has interest

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Uh... yeah, that's how things work.

"Hey, I want to do this content, but it doesnt seem like anyone else really wants to" vs "I want to do this content and so do other people!".

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Originally Posted by Seraph522

I think they were? The 2.16 patch notes say that the fights "can now be challenged via the Duty Finder" (emphasis mine), which makes me think as much, but I didn't start playing until last year, so I can't confirm it personally. As for the Yojimbo trial, I'm really not certain; I'd assume that they'd make it available through the Hildibrand quests because nothing else would make sense, and maybe they just walked back on their previous position or something (wouldn't be the first time...).

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It has been years but if my memory hasn't degraded completely you had to make your own group of 8 people then the entire group had go to Eastern Thanalan / CCH then a person doing the quest or someone who had done it already had to get leader and click on a instance bubble next to Halatali / the chimera cave in CCH like you do for instanced MSQ/job quest battles and then you'd get sent into the instanced boss arenas just like you do with the DF now. All the 2.16 change did was let you queue for it with randoms instead of forming your own group and getting everyone together in the zone (kinda like premade potd/hoh) before entering the instanced fight.

People get together in discords with hundred to thousand of players in several country to organize themselves and mitigate the terrible design of how BA can be entered. I don't really see how it shows that we fail as a community. The different discords even go as far as coordinate with each other to avoid stepping on each other feets. Hell, groups even go as far as helping other premades to fill instances so they get an empty instance.

I've been doing a lot of runs because I m actually leading some runs, and only a few players actually bitch in /shout channel and even less people "sniping" portals. The players are incredibly well behaved considering how terrible the design is, it could have been total war but that's not even the case.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

If content doesn't inspire people to work together then it's the design that has failed. 24 man raids do just fine in getting a big group of total strangers to co-operate and teach each other.

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24 man raids for the most part only work because they're queueable in duty finder. The primary botch I see on BA is the way they chose to implement entrance with the whole scattered random portals thing. Aside from that it's just a higher chance of getting a random idiot because the player count is higher. However its a risk on any duty even with premades unless you only invite people you know specifically beforehand. I still see instances of titan EX where all but myself and 1 other person get launched off the platform on the first landslide.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

24 man raids for the most part only work because they're queueable in duty finder. The primary botch I see on BA is the way they chose to implement entrance with the whole scattered random portals thing. Aside from that it's just a higher chance of getting a random idiot because the player count is higher. However its a risk on any duty even with premades unless you only invite people you know specifically beforehand. I still see instances of titan EX where all but myself and 1 other person get launched off the platform on the first landslide.

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honestly running BA would be a complete joke if it wasn't for the resurrection restriction debuff. Maybe that's how they'll eventually nerf it, just remove that debuff and the average eureka players strategy of clumsily dps while standing in literally every aoe will get you through

I'm doing a BA pre-made, and someone got sniped. And the random that entered instant left.
I hope this kind of behavior is reportable, cause it's clearly detrimental and of not good will.

We are super nice and polite, we invite to the discord. Yet players keep doing that, just because they can. Is it right? I feel sad for the one that didn't get in, we did strive for 1~2h to get everything together =/.

"When the chips are down, these civilized people will eat each other. You'll see."
-Joker

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

I'm doing a BA pre-made, and someone got sniped. And the random that entered instant left.
I hope this kind of behavior is reportable, cause it's clearly detrimental and of not good will.

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Not reportable unless they said somewhere that they were doing it maliciously.

Perhaps they were just ignorant of what they were doing and didn't know the ramifications of leaving.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. - Hanlon's Razor

I think they should remove the "no rez" debuff in the instance when you are not on the bosses. Only allow raises from the Logo's action, maybe lower that from 99 uses to like 3 or 5. When the boss is up and the fight starts no raising can happen outside of Rememberance, that way a wipe is still possible on AV and Ozma but not as bad on doing trash and lower bosses. I think that would be a good solution for making it easier but not super easy.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Not reportable unless they said somewhere that they were doing it maliciously.

Perhaps they were just ignorant of what they were doing and didn't know the ramifications of leaving.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. - Hanlon's Razor

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There's no thing as ignorance when everyone had to agree to BA's difficulty to unlock it. We did communicate, but he just waited for the red portal and entered anyway.

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

We did communicate, but he just waited for the red portal and entered anyway.

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Red portals are fair game for anyone to enter (IIRC). He / she did nothing reportable there.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Red portals are fair game for anyone to enter (IIRC). He / she did nothing reportable there.

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I hope it become reportable in the future then. Cause this is not right.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

If content doesn't inspire people to work together then it's the design that has failed. 24 man raids do just fine in getting a big group of total strangers to co-operate and teach each other.

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This is pretty much my view of it. BA hasn't really shown the community failing so much as it simply has limits of cooperative ability that devs either forgot to take into account or are unsure of how to take it into account. Either way, it's the creators of the content--not the consumers--who are at fault for the issues surrounding BA and the lack of consideration toward what few players are willing to drag their way through the four hells of Eureka in order to put up with running it.

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

I hope it become reportable in the future then. Cause this is not right.

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Unfortunately there's nothing you can do :/ other than try get them in on the support fate portals. This is why there are so many threads about how to get into BA because this method of entering an instance is not working.

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Originally Posted by Sheriyana

Yeap, this is it. Weren't the relic chimera and hydra just open world bosses at first that were turned into trials since they were almost impossible to complete the original way? That's the impression I've gotten anyway, I never made it to 50 at 2.0 launch. I wonder how they're going to implement the Yojimbo trial from the fanfest if it's not part of Hildibrand, Yojimbo is a key part of the Stormblood Hildibrand story and I can't really see them not tie the trial into that considering Yojimbo's position in it. I mean they could just randomly throw him into Orbonne in the place of that living armor trash miniboss but you'd think they'd have learned their lesson from the Proto-Ultima backlash.

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Chimera is open world BUT anybody can come in (as long as they have party) just by interact with the portal. There is no restriction to the number of instance it creates (there is but the number really big). BA ? Not so. The number of BA is limited to the number of eureka instance. Which practically lock 60% of player everytime.

Seriously, if they make it like diadem Emergency Mission, this problem (portal snipping) will not happen. What complain might be please allow queue as alliance or BA too hard. The current implementation just destroy the community.

nah, the majority of the fault lies with SE, by showing once again how out of touch they are with the (western) player base. It should've been obvious from a mile away that the BA design would lead to a dichotomy between the players (wanting to run it in an organised group because of the stakes vs entry being open to any elvl 60). It's similar how they still haven't done anything about the fact that we don't do hunts they way they intended to.

Well the community wanted something similar to FFXI end game and that is what you got, headaches and all.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

I think all of this is hilarious. This type of content would have done fine in any other MMO but here is the result of a game that shaped a community of people used to being rewarded by carries, catch up mechanics and bad play. Throw in the zero accountably the fully instanced duty system has created and it should be little surprise to anyone this is the result.

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This is true.

Similar to Savage, almost nothing ingame prepares you for BA. You're the Warrior of Light, you beat every instance you walk into. Here have the echo, unlimited rezzes, extremely forgiving dps checks, no parsers don't worry no one can see your performance, no it's fine if you don't get your job crystal at 40, yes you may bring that i50 weapon into the Vault, yes you deserve a carry, did we mention how awesome you are?

Portal, sure they're open to everyone! It's Public! You're entitled, yes we said it's difficult but you know you're awesome! In you go... and next thing they throw the most unforgiving content possible at your face with no mercy whatsoever. Does make you wonder.

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

It's similar how they still haven't done anything about the fact that we don't do hunts they way they intended to.

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What is the way they intended?

The problem of BA is not only a matter of JP vs EU/NA playerbase:

Ok we assume everyone go on Discord, but what happens if there are 57 players? One remains outside.

Portal snipers are a problem but BA design is also a problem.

Several people asked Raid with more players than 24 but the reality for someone who is in FFXIV since ARR is 8 players for raids are already a problem for statics (I've seen a lot of drama and uncomplete teams). Then we have asked raids for less players. No reply.

People who are not interested to go on Discord maybe just think : ok what if we have to spend two hours organizing team to play actually ten minutes (it happens for raids and extrems). Does it worth it? What if there are more than 56 available players and less than 112? Who will sacrifice himself?

There's no jugdment. Just few afterthought.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well the community wanted something similar to FFXI end game and that is what you got, headaches and all.

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Except it really wasn't anything like FF XI endgame or FF XI at all for that matter. Some things were similar but they mostly took the worst possible aspects of old school MMOs and lumped it all together and called it "Eureka". So no, people asking for more XI with their XIV did not get it.

SE gave you the way to avoid these "snipers". Organise a group and make sure you have stabalizers. Don't hang about until it's free-for-all time, because then you're in a crapshoot with everyone else, and have no special claim on anything.
Yes, they are hard to get. Entry is supposed to be difficult as well, remember?

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Except it really wasn't anything like FF XI endgame or FF XI at all for that matter. Some things were similar but they mostly took the worst possible aspects of old school MMOs and lumped it all together and called it "Eureka". So no, people asking for more XI with their XIV did not get it.

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BA is just like original Dynamis to me. Which was one of the end game things you could do in Zilart.

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Originally Posted by Rockette

What is the way they intended?

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Not waiting for the entire server to show up.
Find it, kill it.

What did they think was going to happen in content where half of the instance at any given time is afk waiting to shout for free loot? I'm not saying SE encouraged it, but they sure didn't do anything to mitigate the lazy mentality of Eureka players.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well the community wanted something similar to FFXI end game and that is what you got, headaches and all.

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I keep seeing this brought out but I ask, "Where is this community?"

I really don't hear too many people wanting to go back to the FFXI days and all the problems it had. If you want that experience, go play it. You'll be back within a week.

There's a reason that playstyle isn't around anymore. No one has time for it.

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Originally Posted by Sylow

Tbh, a lot of it is content design. BA progression should have MORE positive effects on the outside aside from one annoying NM.

Clear the twins? Bunny fate drops more gold chests.
Clear Raiden? NMs drop more crystals.
Clear support fate? Temporary drop rate increase of moisture-warped lockboxes.
Clear AV? NMs spawn faster. Throw in some lore about Eureka destabilizing or something.
Clear Ozma? Extend these effects for the whole zone for 30 minutes.

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Thank you for this.

You honestly consolidated a couple of the suggestions that some of us had been talking about in-game.

And YatoShishi was spot on with the statement... "For some reason we do not manage to play together and respect each other". Truth is, we haven't played well with each other or respected each other for a long time in real life...and this has gradually permeated itself into how we interact online.

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Originally Posted by Celenia

Nah just make it the party inside BA clear ozma, all outside get ozma clear. Make people have reason to support better and allow people with high chance of clearing it to go in. (Just make 1 achievement for this (like thank you support team))

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I don't believe in people who won't bother to try getting a reward from content they didn't do. Outside player rewards for people who clear inside? Absolutely. Not the reward for people who actually did the dungeon though. That's just entitlement. Sylow pretty much has the perfect rewards listed.

BTW and on a different topic, taking a portal and instantly leaving when most/all portals are taken is griefing/sabotage and is reportable. Look it up, or think on why it is for a moment. If they are legitimately doing the content, it isn't, but leaving instantly is an intent to ruin a group's run. There is 5 minutes of wait time before a red portal shows up, and multiple warnings of 'Are you sure, are you really really sure' etc., so there is no excuse to essentially lock out people from the content for the sake of doing so.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

BA is just like original Dynamis to me. Which was one of the end game things you could do in Zilart.

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BA is more like limbus than Dynamis, but let me remind you that neither of these piece of content were as tedious to enter as BA. You did enter them as a group (and not as individuals) and even if only one "alliance" was allowed in them at a time (at first), people did manage to come to an agreement and schedule their runs over the week.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

BA is more like limbus than Dynamis, but let me remind you that neither of these piece of content were as tedious to enter as BA. You did enter them as a group (and not as individuals) and even if only one "alliance" was allowed in them at a time (at first), people did manage to come to an agreement and schedule their runs over the week.

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You shouldn't have to "schedule" a BA instance almost like you would a wedding ceremony. If a group wants to do it they should be able to just do it. The portals should send all alliances / parties to their own BA instance. This is one of the problems with open world content. You create a claim system so first come first serve, and if everyone is ok with that (which most arn't) you create a wait in line system.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

You shouldn't have to "schedule" a BA instance almost like you would a wedding ceremony. If a group wants to do it they should be able to just do it. The portals should send all alliances / parties to their own BA instance. This is one of the problems with open world content. You create a claim system so first come first serve, and if everyone is ok with that (which most arn't) you create a wait in line system.

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A)I'm not saying this is a good system, only that it isn't anything like FFXI. No systems in FFXI were as broken as this one (which is quite a feat because FFXI had some really weird stuff).
B) it isn't open world content.

Just witnessed a 15+ minute long argument over people arguing about portal rights-of-use. This situation is so stupid and now I have to listen to everyone incessantly argue about it, even in the game. When it's this widespread that you can't even properly play content without being bombarded with constant negativity in shout chat (an essential tool of Eureka), the problems need to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

B) it isn't open world content.

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It may not be Open World since it's an instance locked inside another instance to be fair. But it does have the same problems that most open world stuff has.