No. Just because you spend time on something doesn't make it a smart decision or worthy of being rewarded. You see it with players that prefer to grind endlessly for rare items when it would take a fraction of their effort to acquire the gil in the first place and then purchase the item they desire off someone. Or in this case, players like yourself who willingly go after items that are either readily available in large quantities or are simply worthless. It's like you're expecting people with a gender studies degree to get compensated for their bad decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxcel
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02-21-2019, 10:29 AMMaybeOliverB
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02-21-2019, 10:59 AMKageTokage
I think his point was that gathering the stuff would actually be worth the effort if there weren't bots tanking the prices on it.
I was able to move aethersands for 5-10K each in early SB or immediately after a new patch dropped, but they're since tanked down to as low as 1K at times because of how heavily botted they are.
From a logical perspective, there's little gain to be had in trying to move items at the prices the bots do and generally more profitable to try to sell less mainstream items that they don't/can't sell. -
02-21-2019, 12:29 PMMaybeOliverBBoohoo, I can't sell my overpriced materials anymore and refuse to look at better alternatives to make money. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
Real talk, anyone in here want to talk about how NOBODY is complaining about how cheap and accessible shards/crystals/clusters are despite being largely botted materials?
Oh wait, that would be hypocritical wouldn't it... That would nullify the narrative you're all trying to push wouldn't it...
You guys make it sound like there's a handful of items to gather/craft when there's more than 10,000. Learn how to sort the MB by demand/quantity... -
02-21-2019, 12:49 PMNessaWyvernAlrighty, I'll complain then :) In ARR I used to farm water clusters in mor dhona for sweet cash, but then the bots ruined it. I don't even buy clusters or crystals anymore because I do a lot of maps and grow them myself. So if they took out the bots, it wouldn't impact me much except I could probably make good cash from clusters again.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB
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02-21-2019, 01:00 PMEdaxThat's not how economics work. If the price of every good on the market crashes, the result is hyper-deflation which causes currency to become worthless. If everyone has near unlimited buying power, the concept of "money" breaks down. This will also begin to break down game balance when there's a huge selection of power equipment becomes available for little cost, the resulting player challenge gets destroyed and there becomes little reason to acquire anything anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB
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02-21-2019, 01:07 PMCrystalRainbow
It's called following the gil
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02-21-2019, 01:30 PMFreytI'd prefer higher prices on shards. Please don't be so antagonistic and assume everyone's opinions without any basis for it. Just because you don't see people running around screaming their heads off about every little thing doesn't mean those people feel they walk in a perfection of paradise.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB
Get a grip. -
02-21-2019, 02:02 PMKageTokageI seldom actually see bots going after shards/crystals/clusters on my server. If they are, it's almost always being done by the same players who craft bot and thus are being procured for personal use, not selling on MB.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB
You shouldn't assume people even buy mats from the MB, because I craft regularly using only things I gather myself specifically to avoid giving those players money.
Also, what is/isn't overpriced is highly subjective when few things have a clearly defined value. The only time you can definitively call something overpriced is if someone is trying push mats for more then the cost of the item made with them, or if they're trying sell vendor items for more then their normal cost.
Lastly, while it is the best/logical course of action to just sell something else if the bots are monopolizing a market, ridiculing people for getting mad about it is kind of immature when we shouldn't be having to put up with this in the first place. -
02-21-2019, 02:07 PMMwynnWell you sure know that most of these Lv.70 Gathering Bots do Ephermal Node Farming (Quite most of them atleast)Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
Aethersands are coming from Aetherial Reduction and Crystals/Clusters are just a byproduct of doing so.
Doesn't take long to hit the Cap of 9.999 for them it seems and is also one of the Reasons they are priced for a cheap amount of Gil. -
02-21-2019, 07:40 PMMaybeOliverBSorry but no, that's exactly how it works. There's a reason why actual gil value is higher on high pop servers where everything is cheap on the MB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edax
Hey glad to see your suspension is over ;). Now that you have access to the forums again, you go and try to find me a single thread where players are advocating for higher priced lvl 1 items. Surely there's at least one in all these years this game's been up right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyt
Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
@Kage ^^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwynn
I am assuming players that care amount maximizing their time/profit are buying mostly from the marketboard. Why waste your time preparing for timed nodes/mindlessly going through regular nodes when you can easily make 5x-10x of what it costs you in materials purchased from the Market Board while a macro does all the work for you?
Regarding the definition of overpriced, that's exactly how it is. Subjective. In your eyes, 5k for aethersands is alright. I don't agree. And ultimately no one cares what we think is overpriced. Oh wait, the market board is essentially a free market, I guess selling aethersands for 5k was actually overpriced...
Call it ridiculing if you want, I call it hypocritical to complain about bots when they are doing the bulk of the work regarding shards/crystals/clusters and no one seems to complain about it aside from that one person who made money off of clusters 4 years ago in Mor Dhona. -
02-21-2019, 08:07 PMKaivaCWait, hold on...are you kicking up a hornet's nest again?Quote:
Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB
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02-21-2019, 10:03 PMNedkel
Easier to let people botting in the game than adjusting the gathering system do the market needs i guess. xD
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02-21-2019, 10:10 PMJackHatchet
Keep in mind guys, that if you really push for HARSH black and white ToS rules. That'll also clip the modding community and the damage meter communities.
Though, I'd really like to see FFXIV sell in-game tokens like Warcraft does. -
02-21-2019, 11:27 PMNedkelIt does not translate into this game, and you are missing the reason behind the price crash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edax
More products on the Market means price decrease since the demand is only set at certain level and will not get a lot of higher with lower prices. The lower the prices on the market, the lower the income for everyone since selling stuff on the market is still the largest source of income. This means gils are gaining their value, there is less gil flying around because of low prices.
This is exactly what happened on zodiark, it was low populated server when i started playing and the high end eq costed like 1.5 or even 3 million gil, today since this server has way more bots and players as well the prices of high end eq are set around 500-600k, also materia VI prices were flying around 100k for the crit and det ones, now it is 10-15k.
Market laws from real life does not translate well into this game. In game everyone is "working" for their gil on the market, while in real life it is far more complicated matter. -
02-21-2019, 11:54 PMFreytWhat suspension? I've always had access to the forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB
I'm not going to dig through the forums for you. I'm asking for higher priced level 1 items. Why would I have to find you an example of someone saying what I'm saying?
Regardless, off of memory, I noticed someone said the same thing in the same topic on the same page in response to you before I replied to you.
Please pay attention. -
02-22-2019, 04:55 AMUrsa_Vonfiebryd
In the end there are two types of Crafters/Gatherers. Those who are in it to make money and those who are in it to save money. I am the latter. My token WVR and BTN were leveled for the sole purpose of granting me accessibility to items that were totally impossible due to grossly inflated prices on Faerie (RP servers are terrible for inflation). For a year and a half when I started, the MB was just for trying on things I could never ever own (unless I could get our omni-crafter FC leader to make them). Then we moved to Cactuar. And wow. I could afford materials. And the actual items I wanted without having to make them in some cases. I began to craft more because I had access to materials and realized what a thankless task it is. Especially when Deep Dungeon began dropping Dreadwyrm replicas and primal weapons. I understand the frustration when someone uses scripts to do what it takes people without them a lot of time and effort to do (see my Performance Action post) but the servers where players are basically held hostage by the few crafters and gatherers they have is no better. You are better off charging more for smaller stacks (because botters love selling stacks of 99) and making money by selling to the casual crafting crowd. All I can say is hold onto your butts when the doors are thrown wide because those people on the inflated servers are going to buy up everything on the cheaper servers like Cactuar. Those servers that mostly have legit crafters and gatherers are going to be hit the most because they won't be able to make a weeks earning from a handful of items anymore.
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02-22-2019, 04:58 AMMaybeOliverBTaken from Discord ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyt
So you're either lying or you lied. Either way, it doesn't make you look good when you're trying to prove a point. Doesn't help that you are unwilling to back your statement up other than pointing to this one person, which I have acknowledge mind you (pay attention), that gathered clusters in Mor Dhona 4 years ago. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyt
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Back on topic, glad to see that some players actually understand how inflation works in this game. -
02-22-2019, 07:58 AMMelichoirIm not quite sure what youre stating here but if I understand it right, youre not exactly correct cause youre not taking into consideration a few factors. For starters, If the demand is high, but the supply is low, prices stay high because sellers have their pick of pricing - to an extent. If the price point is too high, you price out all your potential buyers and the product does not move. In this case, lowering your price becomes the thing to do as to entice buyers to actually buy the item. It is better to sell an Nidhogg sword and get 1.5 mil for it, than price it for 10 mil and get nothing. This lends itself to a concept that sometimes you can make more money on lowering the price point, not less. As an example to this, if you lower the price of a product 30% but your sales increase by 200% as a result, youre earning more on that less priced item than if you kept it higher. In a more laymens example, if you price an apple at 1k, and only sell 5 a week, you earn 5k. If you price that apple at 100 gil, and sell 100 a week, you earn 10k. This means that just because you lower the price does not mean your income drops. It depends on a lot of factors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
As for another point, the materia price drop has little to do with botters and more to do with timing - Were at the end of the xpac where getting Tier six materia by the common player is easy. That means the supply drastically increased over the xpac. Compared to when it dropped, T6 Materia was rare as getting the cracked clusters (I think its clusters, I forget the name honestly) was not easy to come by. When that t6 materia was less prevalent, demand was higher, particulary for raiders who wanted to Delta savage. You can generally assume that as time goes on, typically things will drop in price as more players gain access to them. In your example, more players got more materia and saturated the board, dropping the price as they compete with one another.When ShB drops, adn we get T7 materia (probably), youll see those be extremely high early on until access becomes easier. More players (bots or players) is pushing prices down, but its also worth considering that the game "prints" money. You get it from quests and dungeons and the like, which is pouring more money into the market which deflates gil over time. The only way to combat that issue is to have more means of pulling gil out of hte market. This would be sales to NPCs in some fashion. As it currently is, Money from NPCs is poured into players, who trade amongst themselves. More money keeps getting dumped into the player pool, more inflation occurs.
But to the main point: Real life market laws do affect MMO economies. Maybe not as nuanced, but they still apply. -
02-22-2019, 08:01 AMKageTokageThey can't realistically crack down on things like mods and ACT without use of invasive security software as they function on a strictly client-side level.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackHatchet
Bots on the other hand exhibit enough obvious red flags that simply having a diligent team policing them could eliminate them easily. Giving GMs the power to issue bans would go a long way in controlling them when they can simply attempt to contact a visibly suspicious player then punish them if they ignore them for a prolonged period of time. -
02-22-2019, 08:14 AMNYCAcimStudentNo, I DON'T want to see that. I am a refugee from that token system in WoW. Unlimited buying power has created hyper-inflation in World of Warcraft.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackHatchet
Why is this bad? Check out the Blizzard forums. There are guilds that cannot raid anymore because they cannot afford the raw materials to make their pots. If they were to gather their own raw materials, the time it would take to get everything they need would far exceed the actual amount of time that they are in the raid. That is considered a BAD DEAL. The cost-benefit analysis tells us that the time put into gathering would not be worth the end result if it dramatically cuts down on raid time.
From what I see, the only time tokens work properly are if they are in a controlled economy, i.e., the vendors. Non-market board transactions do not jump up in price to meet the wallets of the players with the most gold.
FFXIV is in a weird sort of equilibrium now. Items are on the cheap side but not too cheap. Can we handle the opposite when things become way too expensive? If I am forced to choose, I will take too cheap. -
02-22-2019, 08:21 AMVnolanThe market doesn't factor in. If the bots did something as obvious and as easily detectable as spam in chat logs, they'd all be gone. It's not like it's just bots that get ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
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05-03-2019, 03:25 AMYoraniI can agree with both viewpoints to an extent and I find that it becomes more of an ethics and morality issue than anything else. There are ToS and Code of Conduct in place to make the game fair to everyone. But if those using bots to farm, and screw with the game are doing it, while the other players who are following gameplay rules might find it immoral and unethical to do so, in a sense, those that do it aren't going to care and will continue to do it. There could be millions of threads for players who are complaining about the issue to vent, but it's not going to change the fact that if all of the current bots ARE banned, botters will either make a new account and continue to use bots, or if SE finds an actual way to ban bot programs, then they'll find another game to bot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustytome
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05-03-2019, 05:10 AMDumdogsWorld
I don't think my server has these issues (I could be 100% wrong), but if it did, I would still sell my crafted stuff even if it's not as profitable to me. I can afford to do it, too, because I gather all my own mats instead of buying them.
Why? Simply because, if all the legitimate crafters give up and bots are the only ones left, then the bots have completely won. Not 99% won. 100% won. I can't let that happen. -
05-03-2019, 05:35 AMLiam_HarperHyperinflation in WoW wasn't caused by the WoW token. It was caused by the fact that the game pumps raw currency (gold) into its economy constantly via multiple sources. This was even worse during the previous 2 expansions.Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCAcimStudent
In FF14 very few activities give a significant amount of raw gil, maybe Maps and Gold Bunny chests at most. Very few items vendor for much. The bulk of your gil comes from the market board and the result is that ingame currency mostly circulates among players rather than being generated from thin air. -
05-03-2019, 08:07 AMKageTokage
I had a feeling that world travel would lead to increased botting activity and sure enough, there's now DC-wide groups of archer bots attempting to complete the MSQ via FATE grinding and mandatory questing.
They're horribly inefficient and prone to dying repeatedly, but they actually queue for dungeons with randoms, which can't be anything but a miserable experience for others when they make no effort to dodge AoEs and don't have BRD unlocked at 30+.
I guess the lack of efficiency will make up for the fact that they'll probably never get banned due to the fact that they aren't painfully obvious like the conventional gil farmers. -
05-03-2019, 08:25 AMGaealiege
Yeah, it's clear the policy is to allow botting scum. If you go hurting someone's feelings, though, why that's just unacceptable.
The only people that would defend botting are people who bot. So guess which scum in this thread are partaking? (What an odd coincidence that the same individuals use rightwing rhetorical devices, eh?) -
05-03-2019, 08:36 AMKageTokage
I think consumers who welcome the hyper deflation the bots encourage would also want them around.
The notion that the economy is somehow sustained by bots is also totally fallacious because there are thousands of shards being pushed into the economy by people who just passively grow them in their gardens. -
05-03-2019, 10:08 AMsupergiz
When they ban someone for using a bot, I imagine they have to have 100% certainty they are using a bot as they don't want to do a wrongful ban. A lot of those bot things aren't detectable without invasive software like another poster mentioned.
This would likely explain why you see a lot of people not getting banned from botting.
But damn that guy with the FC house full of bots bringing 20 plus naked people to the MB for years and not getting banned? I mean wtf Square Enix.
I'm inclined after reading stuff like that to think it's because banning those people would destroy the economy everyone has gotten used to. Probably a weird balance of banning just enough to maintain market equilibrium. -
05-03-2019, 11:29 AMSandoria
Hey now, that spammer in Limsa isn't nothing. I report him every darned day! It's my after coffee & before bed daily ritual.
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05-03-2019, 12:21 PMRufalus
I had a look at the site you referred to OP. It's a shame that programmers work on breaking all MMOs but the incentive is obvious; they are charging $10/month subscription to use their bot tool. They don't necessarily care about the games that they are programming automation tools for and certainly don't care about the experience of legit players in those game whose human efforts are rendered uncompetitive or obsolete compared to the tireless efficiency of the bot.
That's the way of it I think. The GMs can't have 100% proof of botting if the character is acting within the constraints a normal player would have (no position hack etc) so they aren't allowed to take any action.Quote:
Originally Posted by supergiz
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05-03-2019, 01:57 PMKageTokage
I really wish they could just resort to the tried and true method of attempting to communicate with highly suspect players then issuing a ban if they refuse to respond.
This wouldn't stop them entirely, but it would at least force people to not leave their bots running while they're AFK.
If they can't even control the bots they do ban on a regular basis by opting to target their methods instead of the bots themselves, I seriously doubt they'll ever make any major changes to how they handle the ones they have trouble even detecting. -
05-03-2019, 03:31 PMAdventica6
ffxi was no different, the game is just showing it's age.
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05-03-2019, 06:01 PMKarstenS
When people stop spending real money for these services, they will disappear.
Isn't going to happen, but i see no other way to get rid of them. -
05-03-2019, 06:34 PMKageTokageHaving a decent team policing them would go a long way.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarstenS
The problem right now is that bans for botting are so insanely rare that there's no fear. The weekly combined number of permanent and temporary bans is consistently lower then the total number of DoL/H bots on my server alone and that's only counting the major players who are consistently active every day (It's several times higher then that if you count anyone who's botted period).
If they started banning people on a regular basis, people would feel reluctant to continue or even start the practice.
That would require a total overhaul of how they investigate/act on reports, though, because they're clearly doing something wrong when players who are obviously running massive bot farming operations using an entire FC somehow go under the radar despite dozens of people reporting them. -
01-25-2020, 10:49 AMFernandosilveirasc
So just found this thread on google, did anything change with regards of reporting and something happening? There are these price undercutting bots on Famfrit 24/7, no way to sell anything unless you go for basically no profit.
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01-25-2020, 01:16 PMKageTokageNope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernandosilveirasc
There's been more botters then ever since 5.1 made the leveling of DoL/H classes easier but I've yet to see any of the numerous bots I've reported disappear, not even the ones that are consistently active 24/7. It seems more common for bots to disappear as a result of their owners getting bored and quitting then it is for it to happen because of a ban.
They really need to do something if they want anyone to take the Ishgard Restoration rankings in 5.2 somewhat seriously because the top spots are going to default to cheaters until they're done earning all of the achievements. -
01-25-2020, 02:09 PMFernandosilveirasc
So basically, what SE is saying is, "get yourself a bot"?
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01-25-2020, 09:00 PMKageTokagePretty much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernandosilveirasc
It's reached a point where I'm regularly seeing genuinely new players just jumping on the botting bandwagon right off the bat to level their DoL/H stuff overnight. -
01-25-2020, 10:23 PMCanadaneWhich is super strange because it's probably quicker to do it yourself with levequests. Land and Hand exp is showered like no tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
Do wish SE would do one of those XI style banwaves where a ton of people just up and lose their accounts. -
01-25-2020, 11:09 PMKageTokageIt is definitely faster to do it manually with a combination of leves and collectables, but they'd probably just rather spend their time doing activities they consider more interesting. It doesn't matter how fast they make DoH/L leveling since the core premise just doesn't appeal to a lot of people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadane
And yeah, I do think they need to have a zero tolerance policy if bans are going to be issued so rarely because the current slap on the wrist treatment they get on an initial offense means that someone can likely get away with their cheating more then long enough for a short ban to not feel like much of a punishment in comparison to how much they gained and how much time they saved. They already seem like they're searching for evidence to prove without a shadow of a doubt that someone is botting with how rarely bans occur, so I see no reason for them to not be issuing harsher punishment. If they create fear, people won't want to even start in the first place.