Pyros... it's going to be lit

I'm barely interested in Pyros because the multi-layered RNG in Pagos has put me off (I like Anemos tho). But allow me to express a feeling I had while reading this:

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"The secondaries [of your relic] are randomized so if you want high stats, you're going to have to reroll multiple times"

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Oh come on. I retire from grindy-RNG-fest korean mmo to play this game only to see this kind of thing haunts me back?

It doesn't bother me what they do with Pyros. I gave up on Pagos after a couple of tries and will not go back. In fact Pagos was the proverbial straw as I've canceled my sub and will stop logging in after my house demos in a few days.

I feel like Pyros will have:

-NM fates for leveling
-"Bunny" fates that drop lootboxes that drop Logos actions parts
-Multiple Logos parts needed for crafting actions
-No mount at the start of Pyros
-Another lack luster storyline that can be summed up as "Thanks for getting me this now go away till you are a higher level"
-Heavy RNG and luck tied progression
-Repetitive excessive grinds
-Rare drops that you might never see drop

Though I'm just guessing here so I'm pretty sure this won't happen coming after Pagos and given how Yoshi and team loves to listen to the player community.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I refuse to pay money to force myself through content I'm not enjoying.

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Preach!
I've seen people here and on Reddit defending Eureka because they didn't find the older relics any fun, either. They might have a point, but that's a terrible reason to keep this content as it is. And for all their faults, at least the older relics had multiple progression paths.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

The only real fix I can see that would salvage it is to make it so all NM's give a reasonable amount of light..

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That might get me back into Pagos and onto Pyros. The main attraction being I could go into Pagos with friends who are at lower levels and actually play with them.

I suspect this content is having a detrimental effect on the open world (there's no reason to go there now besides hunts), and I suspect it's having a bad effect on player retention. SB is content-light; my Friendlist is dwindling, my FC list has so many people taking breaks. We are struggling to find stuff to do together. The relic was something everyone did last expansion, from the most casual to the hardcore raiders and we all worked on it together. Now we can't.

Social contact is the whole point of playing an MMO. It was the only thing I enjoyed about Anemos, the players made that content not merely bearable but fun, Pagos killed that.

I have to admit, as someone who finished 4 relics in ARR and HW, I’ve yet to even get my first relic through pagos. I got step 1 and 2 done through levelling to 35, that felt natural, my relic progressed as I did, much like how light farming in HW came from content I was doing anyway. But then step 3 requires MORE LIGHT FARMING THAN STEP 1 AND 2 COMBINED when I’m already finished with any progression in pagos, so I’m farming that light for the sake of farming that light and nothing else. That’s where I left it and I don’t know if I can motivate myself to pick it back up, let alone do 3 more. This is the first time for a relic where I’ve thought “I’ll Just wait til they nerf it”.

That said, I am going to TRY and force myself through the light farm for at least one relic because I am interested in pyros for the logos system. When I saw the magia board in anemos I felt it was kind of an underdeveloped system and it would have been better if they’d just gone for a system similar to the paradigm system in 13 and that sounds like what the logos system is aiming to be.

No use if pagos is broken.

90% of the community will never see pyros or at least the relic from it, Eureka might as well be failed content now, and pagos killed it.

I am all caught up on eureka stuff but I think I'll wait til everything are figured out before I jump in like I did for pagos. But what the heckie is with the random secondary stats though?! They really don't want people to be making multiple weapons when the content is relevant do they.

How bad the secondary RNG is would depend on several factors:
- Is just the stat selection randomized, or also the number of stats and how much of a given stat you get (range of possiblities)
- How much grind does it take for an attempt.

Regardless, it'll be gated behind pagos, which I'm just not going to sit through.

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Originally Posted by AppleJinx

But what the heckie is with the random secondary stats though?! They really don't want people to be making multiple weapons when the content is relevant do they.

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Originally Posted by Vulcwen

How bad the secondary RNG is would depend on several factors:
- Is just the stat selection randomized, or also the number of stats and how much of a given stat you get (range of possiblities)
- How much grind does it take for an attempt.

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Well, might as well just jump in here:
The whole 'random substats' thing people get way to riled up about, yet again seems to be little more than the result of a unofficial shoddy translation of an already somewhat vague interview posted on reddit which people somehow have taken as gospel.

This Interview has been picked apart and retranslated by now, as well as another few tidbits have been posted from another interview which pretty much show its not even half as bad as people make it out to be.

The 'random stats' aren't that random, in fact, you get to choose which substats to roll on with however many rerolls as you want. Given that these stats seem to be randomly higher than usual on occasion, I can't imagine it being too hard to get a capable weapon out of it at all. A 'perfect' one may be difficult, but who knows wether SE has some sort of RNG failsafe in place.
So all in all this seem to me like this relics version of 'choose your own stats', just with its own twist. (Ofc, think about the randomness what you will, but its still miles better than the Diadem weapons - and far from what people are accusing it to be)

Also, given that we're also getting new Armor this time around I don't belive the Weapons will be all that grindy either, but we'll just have to wait and see.

I mean, I get it, Pagos legitimately sucked, Eureka as a whole is divisive, yadda yadda, but sometimes I really wish people would at least have the decency to not judge yet to be released content based on unofficial fan-translations.
(Sidenote: None of this last paragraph was directed at the two people I quoted, in fact I find those two posts to be some of the more reasonable ones. Just used them cause the clarifications happened to answer them :) Also: Source)

Eh, I think I will spend my time playing better games instead of suffering yet another version of Eureka, especially since they don't seem particularly interested in making the experience better for anyone.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

Well, might as well just jump in here:
The whole 'random substats' thing people get way to riled up about, yet again seems to be little more than the result of a unofficial shoddy translation of an already somewhat vague interview posted on reddit which people somehow have taken as gospel.

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We wouldn't need unofficial translations if SE would be a global company and release translated transcripts. But they refuse to do this.

Perception is reality fella. They need to be in this thread actively dispelling the rumors if it's false. But guess what? The past has shown us that generally SE is pretty pigheaded about changing things once they've set their mind to it.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

We wouldn't need unofficial translations if SE would be a global company and release translated transcripts. But they refuse to do this.

Perception is reality fella. They need to be in this thread actively dispelling the rumors if it's false. But guess what? The past has shown us that generally SE is pretty pigheaded about changing things once they've set their mind to it.

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Except these Infos aren't directly from SE but from Interviews with japanese news outlets SE has otherwise little control over. I also don't see how this is even changing my point that people are simply jumping the gun here - and not for the first time.
I generally agree that SE should try and communicate more, but at the same time you can't expect to SE to try and have a mature, constructive discussion (well, as constructive as it can be over on the 'western' forums given the language barrier people always seem to conveniently forget or willfully ignore) if the playerbase keeps acting like a 5-year old throwing a tantrum over a wrong christmas present - while half the time not even knowing what the present is yet.
I guess my point is: I know SE can be 'pigheaded' as you put it - but so can the playerbase.

(And with this I'm done with the general forums for the next month, I can only take so much sodium...)

lel did not even start pagos and that thing will even less makes me want to do it.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

Except these Infos aren't directly from SE but from Interviews with japanese news outlets SE has otherwise little control over. I also don't see how this is even changing my point that people are simply jumping the gun here - and not for the first time.
I generally agree that SE should try and communicate more, but at the same time you can't expect to SE to try and have a mature, constructive discussion (well, as constructive as it can be over on the 'western' forums given the language barrier people always seem to conveniently forget or willfully ignore) if the playerbase keeps acting like a 5-year old throwing a tantrum over a wrong christmas present - while half the time not even knowing what the present is yet.
I guess my point is: I know SE can be 'pigheaded' as you put it - but so can the playerbase.

(And with this I'm done with the general forums for the next month, I can only take so much sodium...)

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If they don't want us "throwing tantrums" over vague or mistranslated information, they should be responsible and translate it. I get that these are interviews but if they are going to do it, they know damn well by now that they have eager fans in the West that will hunt for info and do their best to share it. If they don't want misinformation to spread they need to be consistent and equal with how they communicate upcoming changes. If a random interview in a Japanese-only magazine is the only way they communicated the info and a good-willed but unskilled fan translator is what we have to work with, well, that's on SE. They have to realize by now that they are a global company with a global playerbase. They should stop pretending Western fans are just an unexpected bonus audience.

The only thing SE seems to learn from each iteration of Eureka is that if they put tantalizing enough rewards behind the content they can make complete and utter s*** and people will still do it. Sad times.

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

If they don't want us "throwing tantrums" over vague or mistranslated information, they should be responsible and translate it. I get that these are interviews but if they are going to do it, they know damn well by now that they have eager fans in the West that will hunt for info and do their best to share it. If they don't want misinformation to spread they need to be consistent and equal with how they communicate upcoming changes. If a random interview in a Japanese-only magazine is the only way they communicated the info and a good-willed but unskilled fan translator is what we have to work with, well, that's on SE. They have to realize by now that they are a global company with a global playerbase. They should stop pretending Western fans are just an unexpected bonus audience.

The only thing SE seems to learn from each iteration of Eureka is that if they put tantalizing enough rewards behind the content they can make complete and utter s*** and people will still do it. Sad times.

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What do you expect them to do though? Release a full rundown of Pyros' mechanics 2 months in advance just in case some rando interviewer may or may not ask a questtion they may or may not actually answer just so they can avoid some random fan translation spreading information that may or may not be mistranslated?
Sorry that just sound utopic to me.
I've already stated that I'd love for SE to communicate more, and I recognize that SE is far from perfect; but I also recognize that things aren't as easy as the playerbase likes to make them sound sometimes.
Is it truly to much to ask of the playerbase to show at least a modicum of reason? Especially if we are gonna ask SE for the same?

But hey, I can already see I'm not getting anywhere; so I'm done wasting my time here.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

Is it truly to much to ask of the playerbase to show at least a modicum of reason? Especially if we are gonna ask SE for the same?

But hey, I can already see I'm not getting anywhere; so I'm done wasting my time here.

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Anemos was bad, Pagos is awful. So I'd say people are concerned, and rightly so, even if it comes from a third party interview, and the translation might not be perfect.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

The whole 'random substats' thing people get way to riled up about, yet again seems to be little more than the result of a unofficial shoddy translation

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Whoa! That is unfair. Remember that was a translation done for free and in the translator's own time and the reason people are taking it 'as gospel' is because no official translation exists. It might not have been perfect but at least that person tried and they got it mostly right. Without people like them we'd have to rely on Google translate!
The problem is-
a) Square do not bother translating Japanese interviews into English (or other European languages) and we have to rely on fan translations.
b) If there is a translation error, the misinformation is not officially corrected, even when it reaches this forum.
Better communication for U.S. and E.U. customers is sorely needed.

However, it is going to matter very little if RNG determines your stats in Pyros or not, when so many players are balking at the amount of grind involved in the Light Farm stage and may not complete Pagos.

Lets not forget that even the other one that translated it could be wrong too. They did state that japanese have a different meaning for these stats but maybe they also missed something. Thats why it would be way better if we got informations directly from them. Why for example did they state new functions of a content in an interview that might not even be read by most players, while they simply could have talked about Pyros in the recent liveletter?

All I can say is:

1) Public relations is an important thing. The more fronts you have in a company, like SE, the more work PR has to do to meet the basic needs of a good, thriving business. SE, over the past decade and a half, has shown that the vast majority of their PR concern is Japan only, whereas we westerners might get a Facebook page that says an event is going on.

2) Fan translations have been a thing for longer than I can remember, often because Japanese companies behind games, anime, etc., often take a while to get their work out to the rest of the world. Some translations by fans have been good, some have not. Saying that the translation we got is shoddy is insulting to the person who has put forth a respectable share of effort on behalf of we the playerbase.

3) It was my understanding that Anemos at launch, and Pagos, were unpopular even in Japan. I'm unsure how true that holds even now.

4) Pyros release may or may not be during my break I plan to take from this game in November. When I come back to the game, if Pyros turns out being the way that we are hearing about in regards to the fan-translated article, I'll probably refuse to even enter Pyros, and get my weapons elsewhere. The primal Suzaku is likely to drop i385 weapons, for instance, so I'll try to have my mains covered before the break, just in case. Grinding out that Ex primal so many times, and dealing with the joys of PUGs, is preferable by an excessive margin, at least until we see and hear otherwise.

5) If Pyros comes out and redeems Eureka as a whole, then that would be great. If it comes out and only turns out being a little better than what we have read/heard thus far, by which I mean the rng elements are minor--rather than feeling like taking a trip to Vegas in the middle of Summer and being mugged every time you went to do anything--then I might only give it a chance. One chance.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

Except these Infos aren't directly from SE but from Interviews with japanese news outlets SE has otherwise little control over. I also don't see how this is even changing my point that people are simply jumping the gun here - and not for the first time.)

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I agree with all your points in general, but the problem is that Japanese companies in general need to stop doing the JP first mentality. Like you publish these long, in-depth interviews in Dengeki, you need to translate them also because they are useful for the entire playerbase. It's like if Overwatch only did dev interviews and disccussions in French. You can't rely on fan translations and works, or in general focus only on 1/3rd of your playerbase. I don't mean altering the game, but at least the flow of information you can normalize a bit more, to prevent stuff like this.

I'd go a little further and say JP need to seriously think about expanding their magazine culture in some form to the west, probably via website. They kind of lack serious mindshare in the west, and western games increasingly are what drives many console sales.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Never finished Anemos. Get on my level.

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https://i.imgur.com/R0QABJi.png

Are they going to fix pagos?

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Originally Posted by Derio

Are they going to fix pagos?

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At this rate it's as "fixed" as it's ever going to be. I don't think they'll nerf it once the next expansion's relic quests start either because f*** the players.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Are they going to fix pagos?

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Relic books (Skyfire, etc) are still misery in digital form. Take that as you will.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I agree with all your points in general, but the problem is that Japanese companies in general need to stop doing the JP first mentality. Like you publish these long, in-depth interviews in Dengeki, you need to translate them also because they are useful for the entire playerbase. It's like if Overwatch only did dev interviews and disccussions in French. You can't rely on fan translations and works, or in general focus only on 1/3rd of your playerbase. I don't mean altering the game, but at least the flow of information you can normalize a bit more, to prevent stuff like this.

I'd go a little further and say JP need to seriously think about expanding their magazine culture in some form to the west, probably via website. They kind of lack serious mindshare in the west, and western games increasingly are what drives many console sales.

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You see, thats just the thing... I dont believe SE has all that much control over these interviews other than wether or not to hold them and which answers to give. SE doesn't publish them, the news outlets do, so technically they'd be the ones to hold accountable for translating them.
And its not like SE never releases Information to the West, the Dev Blog exists for a reason. While I agree that the information given could certainly be meatier, I still find it somewhat unreasonable to hold SE to the ridiculous standard of releasing these Informations weeks -sometimes even months - in advance just on the off chance there might be an interview that may or may not include them and may or may not get mistranslated.
Your hypothetical comment about Overwatch only applies to liveletters really. The only reason these new interviews were in japanese in the first place was because they were held at a japanese event. All interviews at E3 or Gamescom were held in english/maybe german (through an interpreter) with the japanese playerbase getting the short end of the stick. I'm not a fan of how the western playerbase keeps acting like the constant victim here while the japanese base has to deal with the same issues. (Though in all fairness I'll admit they usually don't have it quite as bad due to there being no language barrier.)

Ultimately it's not that I disagree that SE needs to get better at PR, I just don't think it frees us as a community from the responsibility to use our reason and common sense to take things like fantranslations with a grain of salt - which is the whole reason I posted in this thread in the first place.

I never bothered unlocking erueka because the entire concept sounded like a joke, and boy does a lot of the community that actually go into it agree that it is a joke. A bad one at that. I feel bad for my friends slamming their faces against this for their weapons, and if it is true about having to constantly reroll the stats on the weapon to get something you want/like, ouch... :(

It's probably going to be more of a dumpster fire.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Are they going to fix pagos?

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The only fix I can see is reducing the frosted crystal turn in to 3, 6, and 9 respectively and allowing the exchange of Louhi Ice for Frosted Crystal. 2-3 ice for one Frosted crystal seems fair to me. The option to turn pagos crystals into cold warped boxes. Buffing the light gain or making lights static gains instead of RNG so you are guaranteed a gentle or higher light every 10th, 20th, 30th chain respectively with 30th being a newborn if you chain a sprite that adapted or mutated. However these fixes only take the casual player's time and fun into consideration so I doubt SE would do this immediately, if at all prior to 4.5.

Changing how light is gained is probably the only way to convince me. If nothing is changed and the next Eureka comes out I'll just level up and ignore the weapon.

All Anemos weapons. Zero Pagos weapons. Due to Pagos I might see zero weapons next map too. I have better things to do.