Red Mage Changes

RDM should be healer in the first place. For healers it is natural doing dps and heal bit, but for dps it is not natural doing opposite. They choose wrong role for that job imo.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

RDM should be healer in the first place. For healers it is natural doing dps and heal bit, but for dps it is not natural doing opposite. They choose wrong role for that job imo.

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That's how I feel, RDM is a hybrid and it should act like one, imo

That's less a class change and more a request for a complete overhaul all the way to the job's very roots.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

That's less a class change and more a request for a complete overhaul all the way to the job's very roots.

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Well again, RDM is a hybrid, WHM kit is in its roots. I assume healing actions

In ffxiv, RDM is a dps. There is no such thing as a hybrid in xiv's trinity.

Its a Dps not a healer theres no need for it to get vercure II or vermedica

Red mage is also known for its debuff spells which it has none of in ff14 excluding role skills

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

In ffxiv, RDM is a dps. There is no such thing as a hybrid in xiv's trinity.

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Yeah it's a shame really. It really holds jobs back and yes it's a DPS but nevertheless, it's a HYBRID.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Yeah it's a shame really. It really holds jobs back and yes it's a DPS but nevertheless, it's a HYBRID.

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In Final Fantasy as a whole? Yes. Im its other incarnations and showings in the series? Yes it's a hybrid.

In ffxiv, its as close to a hybrid as a job can mechanically be. However it remains a DPS, and only a DPS.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Its a Dps not a healer theres no need for it to get vercure II or vermedica

Red mage is also known for its debuff spells which it has none of in ff14 excluding role skills

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Yes, I honestly would love to get vercure II or a vermedica for 5.0 but FFXIV stuck in a boring Trinity system.. sad.

Even if you had vercure II or vemedica it will stay more or less useless cept for very moments.

Or do you want to enter a dungeon as rdm and tell your healer "im healing only its my way of playing"? Haha

The trinity is fine the way it is if anything we should add a 3rd dps slot just so they have less queue time.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Yeah it's a shame really. It really holds jobs back and yes it's a DPS but nevertheless, it's a HYBRID.

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No, it isn't in FFXV. It isn't even a proper caster/melee hybrid as it was advertised.

The only thing holding back this job is the mentality that it somehow needs more support to salvage more and more terrible situations.

It's a dps. It needs to do more damage. It has more potential support than any other job, anything more and it's just excessive.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Yeah it's a shame really. It really holds jobs back and yes it's a DPS but nevertheless, it's a HYBRID.

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this is not FF11 where one job can fill multiple roles
like ninjas being a tank or Blu and Rdm being jack of all trades
ff14 is built around the Three roles
just because samurai and monk have defense buffs means that they can tank
just because RDM and PLD have a heal spell means they can be a healer

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

in 5.0 we might see a support healing spell or two but if we do they need to have either:

No effect on a RDM's personal DPS or as situationally effective as Vercure for Dualcast proc without a target.

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I agree, any more healing utility must not impact their dps.
Just give them their version of Mantra as a Vermedica as an ability (so weavable) would probably do the trick.

Even if it had something like 50% of Indomability potency once a minute that would be quite something. Especially if SE continue with mechanic requiring everyone to be at 100%


As a side note, why so much focus on RDM AoE capability?
I mean, unless they add-in an AoE phase os12-secondpart where you need to AoE for so long that you could generate 2 moulinet rotation, compared to their single target issue, it seems a bit trivial. Or perhaps people were talking about some sort of expert-roulette meta , dunno if it's a thing, maybe.

To me, the fact that their single target dps buff aren't significant enough is the main issue.
I was really hoping for more, like 320 or 330 for Thunder/Aero and an Embolden buff too, like 15-20% (to make it not so utterly trash) or perhaps the same with a reduced CD / affecting all type of dmg.

I can't see RDM getting any more support White Magic. Like they definitely won't get a AoE Cure. Maybe a Veresuna, if anything, but RDM historically could never remove every ailment, only a few. So perhaps they will get a Vercleanse which will allow them to remove only the debuffs that medicine can remove (Poison, Paralyze, Blind, Silence).

As for heavy hitting spells, RDM probably won't unless its a finisher. Their damage comes from melee combos and finishers, not the in-between spells. Black Mage is meant to be the heavy spell slinger. Maybe RDM will get a trait that allows Verflare to proc Verholy and Verholy to proc Verflare (kinda like how 4.0 DRG could proc their other 4th finisher after landing the first 4th finisher with the Lance Mastery trait). 1200 potency in 2 GCDs would be pretty crazy.

I would not want more cure abilities thank you, just because many healers cannot play their job does not mean we need to sacrifice Red Mage as a dps and turn it into more of a healer...
Status removals like mentioned by Johny ^ is not a bad idea but that is so niche, how often does one have to use that anyhow? Granted i have never raided as a healer so dunno.
Besides they do have to be very careful should they add more healing abilities, because things must be balanced (even though casters never are)
Knowing how SE is the very much wanted job Dancer will probably be a dps with such things (healing and buffs, etc..)

Also to keep in mind: Red Mages, lore-wise are dabblers of Black and White Magic. Not necessarily "healing magic", just "White Magic", which encompasses a lot of Aero/Stone/Water spells. Vercure is technically Verwater (it has a blue aura), and Fleche is technically Verblizzard (it makes a patch of ice under the target's hitbox when it lands). So it's not like RDM HAS to get more heals. Maybe they'll get Haste or Stoneskin as a single-target oGCD. Actually, Temper would be cool (spell from FF1 that enhanced melee damage, and in FFXI allowed them to double/triple their auto attacks). They could implement that as a buff that enhances their melee combo further or something or makes them crit (like life surge).

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

No, it isn't in FFXV. It isn't even a proper caster/melee hybrid as it was advertised.

The only thing holding back this job is the mentality that it somehow needs more support to salvage more and more terrible situations.

It's a dps. It needs to do more damage. It has more potential support than any other job, anything more and it's just excessive.

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It's a hybrid, do you know what a RDM is? WHM+BLM = RDM. I feel like if they really wanted a true DPS they should of never added a Hybrid job from the final fantasy series the game where it's know for it's uses in pure white and black magic, stuck Trinity system where it can't not be it's true self, it would be better if they added a support role but the Trinity system holds it back.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

this is not FF11 where one job can fill multiple roles
like ninjas being a tank or Blu and Rdm being jack of all trades
ff14 is built around the Three roles
just because samurai and monk have defense buffs means that they can tank
just because RDM and PLD have a heal spell means they can be a healer

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That's why as a new player to FFXI, I'm enjoying it more than FFXIV, don't get me wrong I love FFXIV and I want to see it thrive, but I'm enjoying the roles like DNC, a hybrid melee healer. To me FFXI RDM is better than FFXIV and will greatly representative how a RDM should be.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

It's a hybrid, do you know what a RDM is? WHM+BLM = RDM. I feel like if they really wanted a true DPS they should of never added a Hybrid job from the final fantasy series the game where it's know for it's uses in pure white and black magic, stuck Trinity system where it can't not be it's true self, it would be better if they added a support role but the Trinity system holds it back.

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It literally isn't that. You're shoving your opinions off on RDM. Stop It.

It's a dps. The icon is red. There isn't a debate to be had here. NIN worked as a tank in FFXI but that doesn't mean it has to be a tank in this game. MNK functions as a tanky healer in FFXII IZJS, still a dps in FFXIV.

Lore, function and classification can differ from game to game.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

It literally isn't that. You're shoving your opinions off on RDM. Stop It.

It's a dps. The icon is red. There isn't a debate to be had here. NIN worked as a tank in FFXI but that doesn't mean it has to be a tank in this game. MNK functions as a tanky healer in FFXII IZJS, still a dps in FFXIV.

Lore, function and classification can differ from game to game.

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Sorry but this is a fourm and I'm clearly in my right to express my opinion. If you don't like it you can , you know ignore me or you can express your opinion too.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

It's a hybrid, do you know what a RDM is? WHM+BLM = RDM. I feel like if they really wanted a true DPS they should of never added a Hybrid job from the final fantasy series the game where it's know for it's uses in pure white and black magic, stuck Trinity system where it can't not be it's true self, it would be better if they added a support role but the Trinity system holds it back.

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And in FFXIV, white magic is every bit the attack magic as black magic. Otherwise there wouldn't have been much of a mage war. Just so happens white magic can be used to heal.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

It's a hybrid, do you know what a RDM is? WHM+BLM = RDM. I feel like if they really wanted a true DPS they should of never added a Hybrid job from the final fantasy series the game where it's know for it's uses in pure white and black magic, stuck Trinity system where it can't not be it's true self, it would be better if they added a support role but the Trinity system holds it back.

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It's a hybrid concept, not a hybrid role. We don't have hybrid roles in this game.

As others have said, there's not much room in this game for a healing RDM. Healers are powerful af, to the point where everything that "requires" 2 healers can be done with 1 skilled one. So we are left with situations where either the RDM isn't strong enough in damage (because it has so much healing), or perhaps their healing is so strong you could take 2 and forego bringing any healer at all. Either way it's not a good problem to create.

It should be painfully obvious that it wouldn't result in the desired outcome. RDM has superior healing and resurrection abilities now and it's in the shape that it's in. I think they've done the best they could with the job for this particular iteration. Granted I haven't touched RDM.. So it's just my uninformed and totally biased opinion.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

It's a hybrid concept, not a hybrid role. We don't have hybrid roles in this game.

As others have said, there's not much room in this game for a healing RDM. Healers are powerful af, to the point where everything that "requires" 2 healers can be done with 1 skilled one. So we are left with situations where either the RDM isn't strong enough in damage (because it has so much healing), or perhaps their healing is so strong you could take 2 and forego bringing any healer at all. Either way it's not a good problem to create.

It should be painfully obvious that it wouldn't result in the desired outcome. RDM has superior healing and resurrection abilities now and it's in the shape that it's in. I think they've done the best they could with the job for this particular iteration. Granted I haven't touched RDM.. So it's just my uninformed and totally biased opinion.

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People tend to ignore contingency uses when looking at Vercure.

Oh I was .5y from getting Cure 3. Guess I'll die. - Everyone else

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

People tend to ignore contingency uses when looking at Vercure.

Oh I was .5y from getting Cure 3. Guess I'll die. - Everyone else

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I also tend to avoid being in a position I need that contingency.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Sorry but this is a fourm and I'm clearly in my right to express my opinion. If you don't like it you can , you know ignore me or you can express your opinion too.

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As long as you are fine with your opinion being wrong, more power to you then. A hybrid class means it can fill more than 1 role and while RDM can throw out some clutch rez's and heals in a sticky situation it does not have the capability or toolkit to perform any other role than what it actually is, a dps.

I'd like to see you clear anything with rdms as healer lol the poor soul ... rdm and tank. Theres nothing in the rdm tool kit to claim a right as healer or even hybrid.

Whm having stone doesnt make it a hybrid dps
Mnk having a def stance doesn't make it a tank
Pld having clemency doesn't make it a healer
Rdm having vercure does not make it a healer!

Hybrid would mean it could choose its side of the coin. The only thing close to s hybrid in the game is a arcanist if you consider sch and smn as one class.

Theres no room for hybrids and as a rdm the last thing you want to do is being a forum healer and wait around for someone to take dmg then cast heal.

You have the right to post you opinion here and we have the right to tell you you are wrong.

Sooo what does everyone think of the "changes" ?
I honestly have not been on overly much and only ran The Burn thus far because well... Spiderman, haha

Well it's hard to really give feedback on the changes since they were just potency buffs really. But I feel like I sting much harder after the patch.

Vercure is not very useful in Extreme or Savage content. A 8k Vercure on another player isn't going to save much in a pinch. I mostly use it as a self cure if I'm below 12k and a big AoE is going off or something. You're seldom going to save a tank from death as most autoattacks do well over double that damage of Vercure. It really is an emergency heal.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

And in FFXIV, white magic is every bit the attack magic as black magic. Otherwise there wouldn't have been much of a mage war. Just so happens white magic can be used to heal.

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Black magic is much more slimming and matches every other magic well though. Clearly the superior choice.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Black magic is much more slimming and matches every other magic well though. Clearly the superior choice.

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It's just like ZZtop sang in their hit single, "Sharp Cast Man"

I am really happy to see them try and balance the casters and that RM is getting some love. Even though the damage buff was needed, I would like to see them get some better utility. Someone else mentioned this, but why not give the RM a debuff? It fits with the whole theme of a RM and also would make them more wanted in groups.

What debuff would you suggest?

I would still like changes to embolden that have more benefits.
Debuffs i think would fit very well, so ty for mentioning the idea.
Also curious on ideas for debuffs, like dmg down or something?

Embolden is stronger utility than summoner utility combined.

If you compare fastest speedkill rdm parse in o9s rdm embolden bring 481 dps. http://www.xivrdps.com/encounters/Tr1Ywc3WVF9fmtD8/10

If you compare fastest speed kill for summoner contagion + devotion combined are 295 dps http://www.xivrdps.com/encounters/nFfTWx1HAbL8tQcD/11

There's still some considerations to make when making comparisons to raid utility between RDM and SMN at this juncture, particularly when it comes down to party comp. SMN took a nasty hit in utility by losing Ifrit's reflect, which was useful especially in a comp that favors melee DPS , which is still supported by the meta so far. Embolden will benefit any job that focuses on physical damage, which is great for melee DPS and even tanks. Garuda's Contagion will really only be of benefit to a party with at least two caster DPS. Long story short, losing Radiant Shield reflect damage has been a detriment to SMN's raid utility. This does however work in RDM's favor now.

That said, SMN is still holding steady in terms of personal damage, and also RDM seems to be currently dead center, just above BRD and MCH. That, to me, is a good sign that RDM is getting on the right track.

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Originally Posted by Maero

I would still like changes to embolden that have more benefits.
Debuffs i think would fit very well, so ty for mentioning the idea.
Also curious on ideas for debuffs, like dmg down or something?

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Yes, like "Target enemy's damage is reduced by x% for x seconds." It would be a great utility if timed with a bosses big attack or something.

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Originally Posted by Kyrotep

Yes, like "Target enemy's damage is reduced by x% for x seconds." It would be a great utility if timed with a bosses big attack or something.

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We already have Addle though. Unless you want something like machinist's dismantle but that's something machinist uniquely brings.

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Originally Posted by Kyrotep

Yes, like "Target enemy's damage is reduced by x% for x seconds." It would be a great utility if timed with a bosses big attack or something.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

We already have Addle though. Unless you want something like machinist's dismantle but that's something machinist uniquely brings.

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What dual said and you can't keep giving a class of the same role higher defensive utility than the other classes of that same role. What that does is create an imbalance of "This class does more defensive utility so it doesn't need more DPS because it already brings defense, why would you bring this class if this class can do it safer" and "Our class needs more DPS because this class just has overall better utility!." MNK suffered from this in HW. ~2% more DPS than the other classes, but brought no RDPS. Dragonkick and mantra were their utility and the devs thought that was fine, but the community showed it was not.

I'm all for getting more defensive utility in the form of Regens or Sheilds or debuffs in the next expac, but the other casters need to continue to receive defensive utility boosts and strike a balance between RDPS and PDPS.

I'm honestly surprised Embolden wasn't a haste effect. We need more buffs that aren't just "% more damage"