Patch 4.4 (Prelude in Violet) Speculation Thread! (Possible spoilers [NO LEAKS])

I mean, it's possible that there have been Echo blessed individuals amongst the Dotharl, who vividly recalled their supposed prior memories and past existences, who convinced their not-so-gifted kin that this was common to all Dotharl. It might not even be that they are reborn - just that they can pick up on memories or visions of others and misinterpreted this as being a form of past life. I could see that making sense and being the origin of how they came to believe in reincarnation.

As to the House of Crooked Coin, let's suppose it is an Allagan facility - well, it might have all sorts of interesting properties in that case.

Reincarnation is what happens to people with the Echo. Whatever the Echo is, it seems to make souls with it able to withstand being unhoused from their bodies. The point of how we kill Ascians is that we merely don't unhouse them from their bodies, it's also that we shatter their souls into non-structured aether. Lower-tier ascians are easier to kill becasue they can't "hold themselves together" enough to leave a non-living body if there isn't another non-living body close by. This is why the Ascian in the Lvl.58 SMN quest leaves once you get DWT. He's afraid that you will kill him and destroy his body and he won't have another body to jump to. In the Lvl 60 quest, Y'mhitra specifically goes someplace remote so that when the Ascians do ambush you, you can kill them and they really will die. Higher-teir ascians don't need a body to exist, so just killing their body and making it too broken for them to use won't kill them. For that a crazy amount of aether is needed to shatter their aether.

It can be assumed that similar things happen to WoL who dies. Only because they aren't breaking any physical laws and acting against Hydalyn, they go back to the lifestrem. Only their spirit doesn't "break up" so the entire thing gets reborn at once. It's theorized that all the people with the Echo are reincarnations of previous Echo-users that were alive in previous Calamities.

The Dorthal seem to take this idea to the extreme. They seem to think "strong souls" leave the lifestream as soon as they die to be reborn as the next child born into the Dorthal tribe. Some people eventually get tired of this never-ending cycle and want to not be reborn. It seems that dying in (or on) whatever it is in the House of the Crooked Coin prevents them from being reborn. If Nhaama is the Xeala analog for Hydaleyn, and whatever is in the House of the Crooked Coin is somehow linked to Hydalyaen's energy, then it seems like dying there would be similar to an Ascian's soul being "shattered" by a blade of light.

As for why the Dorthal think this... I figure that their founder had the Echo or was a WoL and knowing about the reincarnation of people with the Echo, told his people his reincarnation would be back someday. And over the ages that got garbled into applying to everyone in the tribe and reincarnation happening soon after death. It is worth mentioning that the Dorthal belief in being resurrected is treated similarly to the Orinir's belief that they are descended from Azim and the Mol's belief that the Elder Gods tell them what to do. None of the other tribes seem to doubt that it is indeed happening and none of the main characters from outside the Steppes express the opinion that the Dorthal are wrong. So until there's lore that such a thing could not take place, I'm thinking that there's a good possibility it could actually be happening.

Unlike the kami, which we've had lots of lore info on since 5.0, we havn't gotten any new lore about Xaela religious beliefs since we left the Steppe after Naadam. The Kami have been confirmed to be something that exists separate from the Twevle and Hydalyen, so I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Xaela religion is true as well. Or at the very least was based on something that really did happen a long time ago as opposed to being something made up.

Yes, I'm sure the true origin of the reason why the Dotharl believe this is long lost, and could have a perfectly rationally explanation, but it seemed to me like one of those things in the lore with enough uncertainty to support both viewpoints.

The new lorebook is out soon, so I am hoping it sheds some light.

was elezenos in the trailer and do we think he will be in the patch at all?

Not that I remember... That said, how many blue-eyed male Elezen NPCs are there just hanging out in the background...

Other notable characters we don't see are Fordola and Arenvald.

I feel we're probably going to head to Othard/The Burn at the behest of our mysterious messenger before anything else and that the Zenos business is going to be the cliffhanger that leads into 4.5's story.

I'm thinking he's probably the one responsible for the weirdness that happens at the meeting. He doesn't seem like the sort who'd pussy-foot around for long when he has a score to settle with us still and it would be a great time for him to get our attention, especially if he's able to tell us he's still alive without exposing his current identity, since the fear that he could potentially be almost anyone around us could instill enough paranoia to force us to play into his hands, particularly when the lives of our friends are at risk.

I'm also assuming he's the one Kanna-E-Senna was referring to when mentioning how their body was totally devoid of life, since his assumed survival is presumably what the meeting is being held for in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

the Mol's belief that the Elder Gods tell them what to do.

---

I think its not just a belief. I think the Mol are similar to the people in Gridania with their Padjal speaking to the spirit of the wood.

Maybe it it is the echo as we have been told that souls that weren't always Dotharl have been born as a Dotharl for a generation due to having died in the heat of battle. Kind of like a "It's a good day to die" type fights where you put your all into the fight. Also maybe the Dotharl are like some races in Star Wars that there's a higher percentage vs other races that are force users, but in our world they just have a higher number of echo users. They just treat it differently.

Maybe that device is made of white Auracite and traps the souls so they reincarnate. If they are echo users where their can move from host to host, then it would make sense that if they died near it their souls could get trapped in the Auracite. Maybe we are trying to figure out how to use it to stop Ascians.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm thinking he's probably the one responsible for the weirdness that happens at the meeting. He doesn't seem like the sort who'd pussy-foot around for long when he has a score to settle with us still and it would be a great time for him to get our attention, especially if he's able to tell us he's still alive without exposing his current identity, since the fear that he could potentially be almost anyone around us could instill enough paranoia to force us to play into his hands, particularly when the lives of our friends are at risk.

---

I think it's a mistake to say that Elezenos "has a score to settle with us". That would imply that he resents us or our victory over him. On the contrary, I'd say the moment we defeated him was, to Zenos, the most beautiful moment of his entire, wretched life. Finally, he had found the worthy opponent he'd yearned for for so long, and faced that opponent in battle. The fact that he LOST might even have been the cherry on the cake - after all, if he'd won, then what had he to look forward to but going back to the same old grind, hoping that another, stronger opponent might eventually surface? No, Zenos slashed his own throat because, to him, his life had been fulfilled. He didn't resent us; farthest thing from it. We SAVED him, in his mind.

If Zenos resents anything, I'd say he resents the fact that he came back to life at all. He'd gotten absolutely everything he wanted out of life, and was ready to end it all - and yet, he keeps going. It was the final act, only the curtain never closed, and the actor lying "dead" on the floor has to awkwardly stand up and shuffle off the stage while everyone's watching. I've little doubt that Zenos's plans likely include a rematch with the WoL, but I think, for him, it will be a hollow conflict. Nothing can match the euphoria he's already experienced - but, honestly, what else is there to do?

I wonder if the House of the Crooked Coin is going to play into this, somehow. If anyone wants to shuffle off the cycle of reincarnation, I'd imagine Zenos does...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I've little doubt that Zenos's plans likely include a rematch with the WoL, but I think, for him, it will be a hollow conflict. Nothing can match the euphoria he's already experienced - but, honestly, what else is there to do?

---

If I understand Zenos at all, there is one opportunity I think he'd be find irresistable:

Taking on the arbiter of Zodiark - Word of the Father - while he is possessing his own fine-tuned Hunt-forged body.

I'm honestly not thinking Zenos is going to have much of a change of character now that he knows he's functionally immortal and would be all too eager to keep throwing himself at us until he prevails, though likely not without some preparation beforehand as it would take time to adjust to a new body.

While I'd like if he ended up having more depth to him, I feel like he's going to largely remain a one-dimensional villain who's fixated on the thrill of the "hunt" as his words in 4.3 didn't indicate a change in his outlook at all

What role the real Zenos has left to play is... something that intrigues me.

What can he do? What narrative purpose does he have left to fulfill? He's already been taken down, and no longer has the power base or resources he did that made him an obstacle. Other than a simple pest and reminder that the Echo can be used to cheat death, I'm not sure why he's still around...

... I shall be terribly petty, and say that I dearly hope neither Zenos nor Elidibus goes for each other. But for the purposes of not stealing our goddamn kills. One has a fixation with us as his favored foe that saved him from boredom and emptiness, and the other is the Emissary of the dark god that haunts our star; it would be fairly anticlimatic for either of their arcs to not end at our spells/blades.

That, and honestly personal preference, cause Zenos doesn't really imho have any further role to play bar perhaps reminding us that the Echo does make you resurrectively immortal under certain conditions, but the snake in white still has shots to fire I suppose. No Zodiark yet, no Calamities.

I feel like the Scions might decide to take a more serious look into developing a method/weapon to destroy Ascian overlords completely without need of some manner of ridiculously powerful aether focus once they become enlightened as to the situation in Garlemald. Also, if Zenos can just casually bodyhop any time his physical body is killed, that would make his existence not all that unlike an Ascian so we might up needing such a thing to get rid of him for good, too.

I'm kind of wondering that might tie into the Azim Steppe business, as that weird crystal thing at the House of Crooked Coin is believed to absorb souls and thus end the cycle of reincarnation the Dotharl believe themselves to be subject to. I feel like there is actually some truth to their belief and there probably is/were Echo users with the ability to reincarnate among their ranks.

I suspect that the original Zenos will play the part of the final fight of 4.5. I doubt very much that he'll regain his body from Elidibus. We've seen Elidibus scheme from the shadows as far back as 2.0 and it's only recently that he has made a direct move. I don't see that advantage ending immediately. If anyone is to be a thorn in his side I suspect it'll be Varis given that he doesn't appear to be fully on board with what Elidibus has been doing. Though given that the corpse that Elidibus is piloting is the heir to the throne of Garlemald, he has something of an advantage when it comes to blackmailing the Emperor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

I feel like the Scions might decide to take a more serious look into developing a method/weapon to destroy Ascian overlords completely without need of some manner of ridiculously powerful aether focus once they become enlightened as to the situation in Garlemald.

---

I am kinda hoping that they do that and it backfires hugely. That'd be cool.

Ascian overlords should be a big threat. So I'm not really on board with garbage plot devices to trivialise them.

IF Zodiark ends, then the threat they pose can as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

If I understand Zenos at all, there is one opportunity I think he'd be find irresistable:

Taking on the arbiter of Zodiark - Word of the Father - while he is possessing his own fine-tuned Hunt-forged body.

---

And dying permanently in the process, with his soul obliterated by not fully comprehending the nature of the Resonance and failsafes built into it, leading to Elidibus pulling the plug. That'd be funny.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

Ascian overlords should be a big threat. So I'm not really on board with garbage plot devices to trivialise them.

---

We needed to beat them up to weaken them, imprison them in a piece of auracite, then nuke them with a ridiculously powerful source of aether to get rid of them for good.

It would only be trivializing them if they found a solution that covered all three of those steps at once. If we don't have a reliable method of killing them off, it's going to make going after them in Garlemald pretty pointless since Lahabrea went right back to his trouble-making not all that long after we exorcised him from Thancred, not to mention there's still a lot of overlords left judging from that cutscene at the end of 2.0.

We do have a reliable method of killing them, as the steps are now known. It is just costly, and should remain so, whether implemented through current or newer methods. I'd also like them to see make the subsequent overlords harder and harder to defeat, especially Elidibus, if he ever is a boss.

The other option re the method of permanently killing is that it takes a few off guard, and the others figure it out, adapt and counter it, neutralising it, such that it works but only up to a point. An example of backfiring would be that any methods found to prevent Ascian reincarnation, could likewise be used to limit or impair the Scions'/WOL's echo, if the Ascians were to catch wind of it.

Dynamic villains are so much better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I wonder if the House of the Crooked Coin is going to play into this, somehow. If anyone wants to shuffle off the cycle of reincarnation, I'd imagine Zenos does...

---

It could be that that will be the role he plays, with one of the Scions having a role to play - mayhap mutual gain through researching the nature of Zenos's echo. It's hard to say, as there's plenty of reasons to go there. However, if the Resonance is in fact the Ascian/Zodiark's Echo, gifted to some precious few, which I think it is, it may not work and he may end up having to ask Elidibus to strip him of it, to end his immortality. What can be given can probably be taken back. Could even be something he uses to get him to do his bidding. Now that I think of it, Elidibus shattering his soul would cause him to lose any hold over him he could have, so he may drag it out a bit.

It sounds like we're going to be getting a lot more information about the Ascians in 4.4 as per an interview. The only thing was disclosed was that they exist in two distinct states Yoshi referred to as "original" and "reincarnated" and that there's never been very many of them.

Also, we're apparently getting the business with the Burn out of the way extremely early in the MSQ as the dungeon is made available after the first quest according to the patch notes. I assume that means whatever brings us to the Azim Steppe is likely going to tie into the bigger picture somehow...whatever it is.

Yeah, not long now until we find out. Personally, what I want is for them to save a few Overlords, so that we encounter them in their true form and not through possessed hosts or Echo-created manifestations, like the Ascian Prime. I remember thinking that was their true form, but it is just one of many they can take on.

When they cease being a major antagonist - at least in their mortal shells - I'd love to see caster sets inspired by their robes and masks. They look amazing. And if we see some SMN or BLM spells inspired by them, like Megiddo Flame, so much the better.

This is just conjecture but what if Elidibus isn't the one who took Zenos' body and the person who actually took it was Lahabrea? Just out of curiosity do we know without a doubt that his aether was completely wiped out in the final battle with Shinryu? IIRC Lahabrea - > Thordon -> Estinien (Nidhogg) -> Illberd -> Shinryu I -> Zenos (Shinryu II) -> Destruction of the eyes. I mean I -hope- we are done with him but how weird would it be that we aren't actually done? Maybe Shadowhunter can get retribution in the end?

I have a hard time imagining it being anyone other then Elidibus, considering the Emperor's reaction to seeing the face of his host body.

Thinking slightly ahead, if we do get a trial against EleZenos in 4.5, or any kind of trial, I wonder if they'll use Revolutions as a battle theme for one of the phases. After all, we had Answers with Bahamut Prime, and Dragonsong with Nidhogg. While Revolutions may be my least favorite of the three expansion themes, I still think it would be a shame for it to not get the same kind of treatment. And while I'm on the subject of music, if the last story quests for Alexander are anything to go off of, I'm looking forward to all the nice Orchestrion rolls we'll likely get completing the Alphascape story.

They dropped the name of the items needed to upgrade tomestone gear in the patch notes and well... the names are a bit interesting in their implications. The upgrade items are Scaevan Ester, Scaevan Weave and Scaevan Shellac.

Anyone else think Nero is will be designing gear and weapons for the Ironworks by the end of Omega?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zephanoa

This is just conjecture but what if Elidibus isn't the one who took Zenos' body and the person who actually took it was Lahabrea? Just out of curiosity do we know without a doubt that his aether was completely wiped out in the final battle with Shinryu? IIRC Lahabrea - > Thordon -> Estinien (Nidhogg) -> Illberd -> Shinryu I -> Zenos (Shinryu II) -> Destruction of the eyes. I mean I -hope- we are done with him but how weird would it be that we aren't actually done? Maybe Shadowhunter can get retribution in the end?

---

While there are never any guarantees when it comes to Ascians (they can basically do whatever the writers decide they can do), there hasn't been the slightest bit of evidence to suggest that Lahabrea is still kicking around in any form. If we accept that Nabriales is dead, well, I consider what happened to Lahabrea to be, if anything even more thorough. XD

There's ALWAYS room for an ass-pull, though. Like, Elidibus has some kind of mystic back-up drive that records Ascians and weaves them anew from tattered scraps adrift in the lifestream. Surprise, WoL, guess who's back? I sincerely hope they do not go this route, and that the Ascians that are said to have been destroyed truly are, but the writers are the ones who ultimately call the shots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

While there are never any guarantees when it comes to Ascians (they can basically do whatever the writers decide they can do), there hasn't been the slightest bit of evidence to suggest that Lahabrea is still kicking around in any form. If we accept that Nabriales is dead, well, I consider what happened to Lahabrea to be, if anything even more thorough. XD

There's ALWAYS room for an ass-pull, though. Like, Elidibus has some kind of mystic back-up drive that records Ascians and weaves them anew from tattered scraps adrift in the lifestream. Surprise, WoL, guess who's back? I sincerely hope they do not go this route, and that the Ascians that are said to have been destroyed truly are, but the writers are the ones who ultimately call the shots.

---

Yeah, personally I think Lahabrea's comeuppance at Thordan's hands is far more fitting an end to him than bringing him back for a cheap revenge ploy for Gai- er, I mean the Shadowhunter. Even Elidibus seemed to feel he was a bit reckless and impulsive. When it comes down to it, everything after Ultima Weapon was pretty much a denouement to Lahabrea's story arc, and he ended up repeating his mistakes and biting off more than he could chew, which led up to his ultimate downfall. There would be little substance to his return if they decided to bring him back yet again after all that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

The only thing was disclosed was that they exist in two distinct states Yoshi referred to as "original" and "reincarnated" and that there's never been very many of them.

---

I might be able to shed some light on this one. The words used to refer to the two groups are オリジナル and 転生組. The former is the actual English word "Original" in katakana. The latter says "Tensei-gumi" and "gumi" is just "group". Tensei refers to a transmigration of the soul, and thus it is one of the main words linked to reincarnation. However, I don't think it's necessarily linked to reincarnation, and might also mean any transmigration from where you are from to dwell somewhere you are not from.

i.e. (If this is correct,) Lahabrea and Elidibus would be "Originals", beings of the Source, whereas the rest would be the "Transmigrationists", coming from the other dimensions.

This term was actually the entire basis for my theory that the council of fourteen consisted of one entity from each dimension, tasked with interacting with and raising soldiers within that dimension - hence why Lahabrea's loss was so catastrophic: he was the overlord of the Source, the only dimension they need to hit repeatedly. Now Elidibus has to pick up his slack.

The fact that tensei evokes thoughts of reincarnation while Ascians possess other bodies, and that it is a homophone for words referring to one's core nature, one's true calling, a heavenly voice, and transformation might just be a" happy coincidence", lol.

I also noticed Yoshida wanted us to pay attention to the word "Spirit Disaster" (Japanese for Calamity).

I'm excited for that one. There's always been a weird basket of terms in the mix there. The word Japanese uses for "Umbral" and "Calamity" is 霊 (rei; spirit, soul, sometimes ghost). What was the significance of those connections? "Soul" was somehow opposite "Star" (Astral), so is Zodiark aligned with soul? Or is this more about the spirits of all who lived on the deleted reflection rushing into our world? More importantly ... does this connect to Elidibus suggesting that after seven calamities the souls of man have "grown weak and wan"?

I was distracted by how in the Seven Hells they're going to explain Elezenos and stumbled upon something (I think) that might be a nice answer.

We know the Echo allows for body hopping post death; but there's no reason why Zenos should actively utilise this ability. Furthermore, I find it unlikely he even KNEW of such an ability. After all, he learned of the Echo and its powers from van Baelsar's reports, and the Scions themselves didn't end up with the knowledge until after his "death," all the way in 2.2.

Zenos' reincarnation just makes no sense to me. It's sort of a poetic/karmic thing in denying him his last wish (death by his own hand, in his greatest ecstasy), but it doesn't mesh nicely with what we know. How do you accidentally soulhop into another body? I was rewatching cutscenes on youtube and the like during this maintenance to freshen up and try to find some clue in the final cutscenes of 4.0 and ....

I had forgotten, entirely, by this point in time he had been using a Kojin treasure as his weapon of choice, the Ame-no-Habakiri. We know pretty much nothing about this sword, but it's got a name, the Kojin think it's special/is kami, and it seemed to greatly amplify his fighting abilities in Yanxia when we fought him alongside Yugiri. Those little bits and bobs got me thinking that maybe, perhaps, the sword acted as a sort of vessel for his soul--we already know of a sword that functions similarly, and hell it's Othardian too. Zantetsuken.

So Zenos' artificial Echo, the Resonant, keeps his soul from being immediately shredded into constituent parts and the Ame-no-Habakiri drinks/stores it away. Then, in the clean up of the Menagerie or something, some random Resistance picks up the sword, swings it about, and bam possession. We can glean from his end text in 4.3 he hadn't exactly planned this turn of events--so him consciously seeking to reincarnate seems unlikely. Furthermore, like I said above, whenever someone used the Echo to reincarnate themselves; Nabriales, the Sahagin Priest, the Warriors of Darkness, all of them knew what to do and what was happening. If someone with the Echo could "accidentally" jump into a [dead] body... wouldn't history be littered with cases like this? Wouldn't a lot more Warriors of Light have survived the Seventh Umbral Era? There's a factor in Zenos' transmigration that's missing for sure, and I think the sword is a good fit.

It seemed, to me at least, have some sort of importance in the Stormblood MSQ but it quickly got covered up by everything else. Lingering shots, random increases in fighting ability, cool fancy red-black particle effects (which I actually thought might tie Zenos to getting Ascian help when I saw it in the Stormblood launch trailer! lol), the sword seemed to be so important and so woefully overlooked and underdeveloped.

To me the jury is still out on exactly how accurate the whole 'Echo allows a person to transcend death' thing really is, as there are plenty of cases of Echo users dying... and staying dead (you just have to look at the Path of the Twelve, the Sions' predecessor organization pior to the Calamity - nearly all their members were awoken to the Echo and yet most perished in the Battle of Carteneau.

And especially Una Tayuun and her friends Satzloh and Percevains (the miqo'te, roegadyn and elezen Scions who were originally members of the Path who had amnesia in the Waking Sands, only to be all killed when Livia and her Garlean thugs raided the place) is further proof to the contrary, given we buried their deceased remains at the Church of Saint Adama Landama (and their souls are later found in the Palace of the Dead to boot!), and yet all three had the Echo (this was confirmed back in 1.0), which this is pretty telling that the Echo does not allow a person to cheat death.. at least by default.

Instead, personally I think this transcendence with the Echo only comes about with sufficent mastery of it - or if an outside force transcends that person for them (this would definetely ring true for Minfilia at least, if not Evil!Derplander and his friends). And even Zenos coming back from the dead can sort of be handwaved by the simple fact it is not the actual Echo he has, but an artificial similacrum of it, and throw in Elidibus using him as his meatsuit.... and it opens up a whole new can of aetheric worms.

I think the key word is allows. When properly developed, the Echo allows one to transcend death. When the Sahagin elder tried to make use of this faculty, the act was very deliberate, and self-guided. Ditto the Warriors of Darkness. You can see and feel what's going on as the power revs up; Minfilia can sense it being invoked just by being nearby.

This doesn't mean if you have the Echo and die you just don't die. As you say, we've seen plenty of Echo users die and just ... well, die. That makes it all the more weird to me that Zenos died and just didn't. He didn't want to live, he didn't try to live, he didn't rev up the Echo, we didn't feel anything powerful and Echo-ey happening near by. He just woke up in another body like, "What in the seventh hell?"

I'm hoping that gets addressed, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rocl

It seemed, to me at least, have some sort of importance in the Stormblood MSQ but it quickly got covered up by everything else. Lingering shots, random increases in fighting ability, cool fancy red-black particle effects (which I actually thought might tie Zenos to getting Ascian help when I saw it in the Stormblood launch trailer! lol), the sword seemed to be so important and so woefully overlooked and underdeveloped.

---

I think you may be onto something. If that was the sword he took his life with - I can't recall - the fact that it was a suicide might have particular ritualistic importance to this artefact. Perhaps it was even designed for such a use.


As per Moose's post, it does seem like reincarnating takes a highly skilled and developed use of the Echo. I'm also open to the notion that if the Resonance is the gifting of the Ascian echo, they might not have imbued enough of it to allow for reincarnation (maybe as a failsafe), and so the sword might be the requisite plot device here to allow for this - but perhaps enough to preserve him. If it trapped his soul, so could it trap another... but for reasons I've mentioned in the past about Zenos's new form, I have a strong feeling that SE is playing us for fools with the blade's name. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

I have a strong feeling that SE is playing us for fools with the blade's name. ;)

---

What does the name mean?

Serpent-slayer, according to my google-fu skills.

http://symphogear.wikia.com/wiki/Ame_no_Habakiri

Seems like SE is having a bit of fun.

Edit: I have my theory as to why this might become significant. I don't think Zenos, as such, has the power to slay "Zenos". He was bested by the WoL, and this new entity is his former Resonance-enhanced body plus an Ascian capable of using it to its full extent. My belief, confirmed through recent lore events, is that the host the Ascian takes might limit how greatly they can manifest their power, most likely because their god is in another shard and so for all effects and purposes, they're in a similar situation to extra-planar entities in other fantasy settings. Hence, merging two merely "adequate" hosts into the Ascian Prime would allow Igeyorhm and Lahabrea to avail themselves of this form's greater power. When Elidibus refers to "Zenos"'s adamant form, he's probably referring to something more than just its physicality - after all, Nabriales could augment a regular host to be so powerful as to lift up Moenbryda like a feather, so physical strength alone is childsplay to an Ascian. This might also be why Elidibus is confident that the WoL poses little threat to him as things stand, as he is more fully able to channel his full power in a body he has modified to suit his purposes. So on that basis, the new and probably already weaker Zenos will be hopelessly outmatched. Where I think this blade might become significant, is that it could serve as a vessel to trap Elidibus's aetheric form, on the basis that it was able to hold in Zenos's soul. How that plays out, if it does, is anyone's guess, but it would be consistent with the fact that we need to both trap them and utilise a massive quantity of aether to truly kill them. Could be Zenos gets a "killing blow"; could be he gifts it to the Scions (on the assumption that his motives change and he seeks to make better use of his "second life"); could be that we wrest it out of his cold, dying hands and realise its purpose. Could be, of course, that this is all a red herring and none of this will play out in this manner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I think the key word is allows. When properly developed, the Echo allows one to transcend death. When the Sahagin elder tried to make use of this faculty, the act was very deliberate, and self-guided. Ditto the Warriors of Darkness. You can see and feel what's going on as the power revs up; Minfilia can sense it being invoked just by being nearby.

This doesn't mean if you have the Echo and die you just don't die. As you say, we've seen plenty of Echo users die and just ... well, die. That makes it all the more weird to me that Zenos died and just didn't. He didn't want to live, he didn't try to live, he didn't rev up the Echo, we didn't feel anything powerful and Echo-ey happening near by. He just woke up in another body like, "What in the seventh hell?"

I'm hoping that gets addressed, lol.

---

Well, something to bear in mind is the fact that Fordola exists as an example of the Resonance activating involuntarily and against the wishes of its bearer. Zeno's situation could be similar. He may have wanted to die, but his Resonance fired off anyway, just as Fordola would really love to stop experiencing the tormented memories of the people she oppressed, but nope. This could be a key difference between the Resonance and the Echo - the former is much more difficult to control. (On the other hand, just about every single time the WoL has experienced an Echo vision, it has not been premeditated. It just sorta happens. So maybe regular Echo pretty much does what it wants, as well, but is a bit more polite about it? XD)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Well, something to bear in mind is the fact that Fordola exists as an example of the Resonance activating involuntarily and against the wishes of its bearer. Zeno's situation could be similar. He may have wanted to die, but his Resonance fired off anyway, just as Fordola would really love to stop experiencing the tormented memories of the people she oppressed, but nope. This could be a key difference between the Resonance and the Echo - the former is much more difficult to control. (On the other hand, just about every single time the WoL has experienced an Echo vision, it has not been premeditated. It just sorta happens. So maybe regular Echo pretty much does what it wants, as well, but is a bit more polite about it? XD)

---

Come to think of it the Echo almost got us killed in Yanxia and Alisae had to save us while we saw that flashback about Yotsuyu. Also didn't Krile only get kidnapped in 4.0 because Arenvald likewise had an echo vision at an inopportune time?

You know, it'd be nice to have the echo and use it as an excuse if I get caught nodding off at work. "No sir I wasn't sleeping, I was just having an important vision! It wasn't my fault!"