ToS: Third Party Programs and Turbo Controllers

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Originally Posted by Madruk

You expect a 18 yr old GM to take out a stopwatch? Only in asian MMO's do I see these debates.

Put in auto-craft and be done with it. The new 1.21-2.0 changes are leaning towards this direction anyway.

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you seriously think they use a stopwatch to time people? lol, thanks for the laugh

No, I dont. Nor do I believe they won't do anything other than the ye olde /tell test, do handstands and flip backwards test to see if you're afk. Timing tests are subjective to server lag doesn't make any difference.

As I said before, instead of making convoluted tests to a retarded system, change it to what pretty much every other mainstream MMO does these days. Crafting should always be about the gathering of materials, not spending 2 minutes trying to get enough quality to push a 2-5% increase chance to +1.

I use my Thumb always have always will too

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

quite easily actualy

they can time your entries, if all of them are the exact same timing down to the miliosecond, your using a program
if you have your turbo button taped, itl obviously have a continuous stream of input wether or not it can actualy be used

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And they time it how? Using a stopwatch? Not exact enough. Checking our input packets? Latency will make it as inexact.

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and then theres the easy test of just sending people a message to see if they are even there at all(im talking about you! people claiming to watch movies with 14 minimized), you are at your computer, but you are obviously not actualy there at all as far as the game is concerned

its alot easier to prove then you think

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And in that case you can just respond. I quoted the part where they specifically said using automated functions of a keyboard/gamepad AND being present is also not allowed. There is no way they can prove that.

For people wondering about the GM sending a tell to see if you are there, there is one alternative which is add a script to FFXIV that checks every single piece of software, compare it to a list SE has of illegal software then ban anyone and everyone that has said software.

Also FFXI had auto craft, you choose the mats, and it does it, it wasnt involved at all, I know a game of pong for a craft, every time you win your progress increases, every time you loose your durability increases :D

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

they can time your entries, if all of them are the exact same timing down to the miliosecond, your using a program

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Requires something on the client side though since the latency would randomly alter the timing. Somehow doubt they implemented such a feature. It would only work for the simplest form of automation.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

For people wondering about the GM sending a tell to see if you are there, there is one alternative which is add a script to FFXIV that checks every single piece of software, compare it to a list SE has of illegal software then ban anyone and everyone that has said software.

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Seeing how they are struggling to add ANYTHING to the client, I kinda doubt they will be able to do that.

And even if they do, turbo controllers and keyboard macros are not detectable.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Seeing how they are struggling to add ANYTHING to the client, I kinda doubt they will be able to do that.

And even if they do, turbo controllers and keyboard macros are not detectable.

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The special buttons need a specific driver or piece of software to work, you just look for the software, or look in the driver and see the special keys function, probably illegal because they could be closed source but entirely possible and then they can nuke everyone with a programable keyboard or turbo controller.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

The special buttons need a specific driver or piece of software to work

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No. In case of turbo controllers, it's the hardware that does it. You can't distinguish a turbo from a non-turbo controller.

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they can nuke everyone with a programable keyboard or turbo controller.

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And lose a LOT of players because of trying to dictate what hardware a player should use.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

And lose a LOT of players because of trying to dictate what hardware a player should use.

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Much must be risked in the war against the RMT, you should blame the people that exploit these features, not SE.

They would never go that far because it will cause legal complications if they did.

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Bah, I don't care...

I have a Roccat Isku and start a Timed Enter Spam macro just to go back and play my guitar while crafting watching the chat. It's the same thing as pressing the Enter button with your hand afterall, just that like that you can multi-task without being able to focus on other applications, as the focus of the keyboard lays on that.

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Don't get banned Renshi :D

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Bah, I don't care...

I have a Roccat Isku and start a Timed Enter Spam macro just to go back and play my guitar while crafting watching the chat. It's the same thing as pressing the Enter button with your hand afterall, just that like that you can multi-task without being able to focus on other applications, as the focus of the keyboard lays on that.

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Okay, whether true or not what I don't understand is this: if you don't like crafting, then why are you doing it? I get that it can be tedious, but so is ranking a battle class from 1-50 to some people, or gathering to others. There are other ways to make money. I mean the point of playing a game is for enjoyment right? So if you would rather practice guitar than level crafting...cool. But using a programmable keyboard so it can play the game for you isn't really playing the game. To each his own, but eh...

Because if I want to play a freaking guitar to keep my fingers trained, and I have the option to do it while crafting, why shouldn't I do that?
Don't mind me, I like crafting so much that I got my 50 when I still had my Apple Keyboard, doing leves one after another, but mind me, if I have the chance to both satisfy my hobbies I want to use that chance!

Don't mind me, but mind me.

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Because if I want to play a freaking guitar to keep my fingers trained, and I have the option to do it while crafting, why shouldn't I do that?
Don't mind me, I like crafting so much that I got my 50 when I still had my Apple Keyboard, doing leves one after another, but mind me, if I have the chance to both satisfy my hobbies I want to use that chance!

Don't mind me, but mind me.

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But you're not doing 2 things at once...you are playing the guitar...the programmable keyboard is playing the video game. That was my the point. Pick one and/or pick 2 activities you can do at the same time... maybe take up singing while crafting ;)

As to the " I leveled without cheats thing using only an apple keyboard", that's nice, doesn't change the fact that you are choosing to craft now w/o physically doing it. Justifying it doesn't make it 'right'.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

But you're not doing 2 things at once...you are playing the guitar...the programmable keyboard is playing the video game. That was my the point. Pick one and/or pick 2 activities you can do at the same time... maybe take up singing while crafting ;)

As to the " I leveled without cheats thing using only an apple keyboard", that's nice, doesn't change the fact that you are choosing to craft now w/o physically doing it. Justifying it doesn't make it 'right'.

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I am not condoning what Renshi does but they know that what they are doing is effectively against the ToS, especially with what the french rep said, its Renshi's account to do what ever Renshi wants. Does it affect you, on a different server no, so why should you care?

The ToS doesn't even allow ventrilo, skype or a graphics driver. Voice chat obviously gives you an advantage over other players and the graphics driver alters the games code in memory to optimize it for your GPU :P
Couldn't care less about people using some autofire gamepad or programmable keyboard to automate crafting. The ToS isn't precise enough if you ask me and the real problems are RMT and people using hacks (I'm not gonna call them hackers, since the ain't). Would be nice if SE started banning those.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

I am not condoning what Renshi does but they know that what they are doing is effectively against the ToS, especially with what the french rep said, its Renshi's account to do what ever Renshi wants. Does it affect you, on a different server no, so why should you care?

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Look, I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it. But it does matter regardless of server, because well Renshi isn't the only person who feels it's okay behavior. And there are others on the fence who see post like Renshi's and think 'Well they are doing it that way so I can to.' So while they also made a choice on potentially bad advice to do something that could potentially ban their account, it does affect us all as a community. (btw, with the whole 'server merge thing' we are ALL in the same potential community).

This all being said, I wasn't trying to pick on Renshi personally, but rather the general thought that some share with him/her that 'it's okay because it's not an actual program and I'm still in the room and can see the screen' mentality. Also, I've seen Renshi's posts around the forums on occasion and I like the person (based on what I've seen/read) and would hate to see them banned because they decided to practice guitar one day while crafting...or take a shower etc.

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Originally Posted by Risx

"So, any player who uses third party programs, a "turbo" controller, programmable keybord keys or any other method (such as taping down the enter key) is taking the risk of seeing their Final Fantasy XIV account suspended or closed."

Lol what?

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That is a mistranslation. I'm a native French speaker and the French message says "stuck a key" (i.e. you use a piece of cardboard or paper to "stuck" one of your key so it presses something repeadtly).

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What about "automated" hardware? Would using this to press the Enter key be considered botting?

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Not allowed either according to the original message.

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No. In case of turbo controllers, it's the hardware that does it. You can't distinguish a turbo from a non-turbo controller.

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You can't. So only two way to get banned :

1. You admit using it
2. You are AFK when a GM is interacting with you

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

Look, I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it. But it does matter regardless of server, because well Renshi isn't the only person who feels it's okay behavior. And there are others on the fence who see post like Renshi's and think 'Well they are doing it that way so I can to.' So while they also made a choice on potentially bad advice to do something that could potentially ban their account, it does affect us all as a community. (btw, with the whole 'server merge thing' we are ALL in the same potential community).

This all being said, I wasn't trying to pick on Renshi personally, but rather the general thought that some share with him/her that 'it's okay because it's not an actual program and I'm still in the room and can see the screen' mentality. Also, I've seen Renshi's posts around the forums on occasion and I like the person (based on what I've seen/read) and would hate to see them banned because they decided to practice guitar one day while crafting...or take a shower etc.

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This comes to the old question, If I jumped off a cliff would you as well? Just because one person does something doesnt make it right, everyone knows that I would however put programable keyboards and turbo controllers in the same catogory as Windower for FFXI, while technically against the ToS I cant see them taking action against them.

I don't really know what's the problem on using a keyboard macro when you are on your computer. I'm playing guitar, while letting my character craft and reading the chat log. If someone posts something interesting or about me, I just stop the macro and write down, then keep on playing with the macro on, rinse and repeat.

I know it might be against the ToS, but I know that I'm doing this controlling the situation, and not by going to bed letting my character craft. Isn't that the same when you activate a game macro using skills while you chat with your mates?

I'll tell ya, I don't have any other places to play guitar other than my actual gaming station, where I have my FX pedals plugged in. Moreover, I don't like to not have control of my character, finding it kinda uncool. But if I could use my hands to exercise them better in a guitar than in an Enter key, or in an A button, then I prefer it =)

Does it change something if I physically press Enter repeatedly or if the Keyboard does it for me? I dunno, but I don't see that much of a difference :D

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Originally Posted by Renshi

I don't really know what's the problem on using a keyboard macro when you are on your computer. I'm playing guitar, while letting my character craft and reading the chat log. If someone posts something interesting or about me, I just stop the macro and write down, then keep on playing with the macro on, rinse and repeat.

I know it might be against the ToS, but I know that I'm doing this controlling the situation, and not by going to bed letting my character craft. Isn't that the same when you activate a game macro using skills while you chat with your mates?

I'll tell ya, I don't have any other places to play guitar other than my actual gaming station, where I have my FX pedals plugged in. Moreover, I don't like to not have control of my character, finding it kinda uncool. But if I could use my hands to exercise them better in a guitar than in an Enter key, or in an A button, then I prefer it =)

Does it change something if I physically press Enter repeatedly or if the Keyboard does it for me? I dunno, but I don't see that much of a difference :D

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the problem is actualy quite simple

you arent playing the game, your keyboard is, wether or not your sitting right next to it


if its against the tos, its against it, you cant really argue beyond that point unfortunately

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Much must be risked in the war against the RMT, you should blame the people that exploit these features, not SE.

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Except it's SE that makes a crafting system that requires nothing but spamming enter to grind. Just saying. ;x

I'll tell ya, while I was writing that I wasn't putting any points to the ToS, but only at the situation.
If I'll have problems with the ToS I'll solve them with Square-Enix, showing my points as they show me theirs, and if I have to pay, I'll pay.
But that's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm just discussing the rightness of it. If my keyboard macro was a friend of mine, would that be considered the same thing? It's doing the same thing the macro keyboard does afterall.

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Originally Posted by Renshi

I'll tell ya, while I was writing that I wasn't putting any points to the ToS, but only at the situation.
If I'll have problems with the ToS I'll solve them with Square-Enix, showing my points as they show me theirs, and if I have to pay, I'll pay.
But that's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm just discussing the rightness of it. If my keyboard macro was a friend of mine, would that be considered the same thing? It's doing the same thing the macro keyboard does afterall.

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It's still an automatization, as stated in the french rep post, any automatization is against the ToS even if you are right in front of the PC and you might get your account suspended/closed. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Renshi

I'll tell ya, while I was writing that I wasn't putting any points to the ToS, but only at the situation.
If I'll have problems with the ToS I'll solve them with Square-Enix, showing my points as they show me theirs, and if I have to pay, I'll pay.
But that's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm just discussing the rightness of it. If my keyboard macro was a friend of mine, would that be considered the same thing? It's doing the same thing the macro keyboard does afterall.

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the difference of a friend playing for you and your keyboard is as clear as day, 1 is a person and is legal, the other is not

Well, I ain't no pressing machine, so I'll let the machine do the job as I'm checking the work. If that's not good for them then Renshi's body's ready, as my mind is =)
Anyway! Just don't follow my reasonings if you don't want to risk your account, and play safe!

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

the difference of a friend playing for you and your keyboard is as clear as day, 1 is a person and is legal, the other is not

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Actually I believe sharing account details is against the ToS (probably for your own safety) so that would be against the ToS, i'm sure we have all done something against the ToS sometime.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Actually I believe sharing account details is against the ToS (probably for your own safety) so that would be against the ToS, i'm sure we have all done something against the ToS sometime.

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Invite your friend at home :D

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Originally Posted by ShadowCadja

It's still an automatization, as stated in the french rep post, any automatization is against the ToS even if you are right in front of the PC and you might get your account suspended/closed. ^^;

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So this means they're removing macros and their commands from the game with the next patch? Cause you can automate huge sections of the game using the built-in tools.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

So this means they're removing macros and their commands from the game with the next patch? Cause you can automate huge sections of the game using the built-in tools.

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If you read the documents. It is defining that using unauthorized third party programs is against their policy. It does not say, using the in game macro is against their policy.

http://support.na.square-enix.com/ru...seragreement_e

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2. LICENSE LIMITATIONS

2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay.

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Which in that User Agreement document, it says the rules are further defined in Prohibited Activities which is what is quoted in the OP.

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Using third party programs or tools in FINAL FANTASY XIV is strictly prohibited since they allow users to gain an unfair advantage over other players.

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Key word, third party programs or tools.

But like I said before, there's also other rules that seems a bit outdated or not really enforced. Such as; The rights they withhold with user generated Materials, the restriction of Naming Rights, and so forth.

Long story short, you can always just use it regardless. But can't say it wasn't against the rules when it's written there.

I tried called a gm about this once, and they told me the chance of being caught is slim to none and there was no point of calling a gm about bot crafting.

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Originally Posted by Seth_Ahriman

I tried called a gm about this once, and they told me the chance of being caught is slim to none and there was no point of calling a gm about bot crafting.

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One would think the GM would simply /tell the person being accused of botting and if he responds obviously he is not afk, if he doesn't respond, obviously he is afk. Buuuuuuut I guess if that were the case people would probably call non bot crafters bots all day and GMs would end up dealing with such trivial BS and wasting time...In the end it is rather hard to prove that anyone is using a bot unless you have some sort of a keylogger on their pc.

My OP was more or less directed at Turbocontrollers and the argument that many of us, myself included (though I do not own one) have used, inregards the use of Turbocontroller's function not being against the ToS when actually they are.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

So this means they're removing macros and their commands from the game with the next patch? Cause you can automate huge sections of the game using the built-in tools.

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Can you really write an ingame macro to spam standard synthesis for you?

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Can you really write an ingame macro to spam standard synthesis for you?

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no

/tenchar

My best way to tell so far is only if they have their repair all gear thing up. If i make more then 100k off repairing them they are a bot :D

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Originally Posted by Seth_Ahriman

My best way to tell so far is only if they have their repair all gear thing up. If i make more then 100k off repairing them they are a bot :D

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as someone who crafts way too much for their own good i agree with this
i get annoyed having to get up and actualy repair my gear, but i aint giving people money to repair what i can already do myself, which botters seem to have no problem with if it keeps them going for that few extra seconds every few hours, they lose all of 2-3 synths if they have to do it themselves

well some fishbot in trabia last night got hit hard. i had so much free time and stacks of dm.

people will still bot, buy gil, turbobutton stuff then come to the fourms and say SE/ffxiv sucks cuz there innocent.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

the problem is actualy quite simple

you arent playing the game, your keyboard is, wether or not your sitting right next to it


if its against the tos, its against it, you cant really argue beyond that point unfortunately

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There is a post in an article from Yoshi about the use of 3rd party programs and talks about automated crafting. Basically from what I remember he was not against this. The TOS we have is from the old director and expect 2.0's release to be much more lenient with this type of activity. I wish I had the links and the quotes. There was also a GM screenshot that showed a JP GM saying its not against TOS to use a turbo macro on a G15 keyboard. I do think the GM was mistaken but I remember the screenshot clearly, it was from nearly a year ago though.

For 2.0 they already said they are planning to give an API or some form of developer kit for addons in FFXIV. Take it for what its worth. If you macro craft and get in trouble and banned don't complain, is it likely that your going to get caught? probably not.

The 'special task force' in this game is a fail. If they really wanted to bust botters they could go to the LL Grand Company headquarters in Mysidia. Or they could hang out and bust the rmt hanging out around LL with all their lil lalafell mules, all of which have names like rkbem favdluj with ls that have names like avdsuo

Botters and rmt are so blatent in this game because they can be. They know they are not going to be banned and can do whatever they want to do. To bad we can cure break their synths like we could in xi.