The Burn

*has a sudden urge to set up an undersized run of the Praetorium and just sit at the entrance to hear the music*

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

I know what you mean. "Bite of the Black Wolf" has kinda turned into the generic Garlean legatus theme. If I remember correctly, it's used when you fight Regula the first time and is also used for the Zenos fight in Doma. It doesn't help that it's really Nael van Darus' theme with the choir taken out.

"Penitus" is one of those music themes that suffers from no one ever getting to hear the entire thing of in-game. After The Burn came out, I listened to all of Penitus and realized that it's really a great piece of music, but it's over seven minutes long and you never get to hear more then the first oh... three and a half minutes of it in the Praetorium. I didn't know a choir was part of it until I heard it on YouTube. Or that parts of the Prelude and Torn From the Heavens are in it. The last two and a half minutes are some of the best parts of "Penitus" and you never get to hear those in-game.

Now that I think about it, I'd totally be open to farming the Praetorium for orcestron rolls of it...

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Yes totally agreed, Obsidian... its an excellent composition and it is maddeningly unfortunate that we still cannot obtain the Orchestrion rolls for both "Penitus" and "The Emperor's Wont" (this is another one I love starting from around 1.45 minutes into the tune). Soken and his crew really did a phenomenal job composing the OSTs for AAR.

There are quite a few songs that have hidden gems embedded into them half way through or towards the end... "On Westerly Winds" is another one off the top of my head that has a nice soothing sound that starts around 2.45.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

*has a sudden urge to set up an undersized run of the Praetorium and just sit at the entrance to hear the music*

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And Iscah, I know what you mean... there is also a great view of Thalanan, right after getting past the Magitek area, that just adds gravity to the song.

The music overall in this game is standout compared to its main competition, in my opinion. Every time a new patch is released I find myself eager to hear the new tunes and have yet to be disappointed.

The Burn's theme is pretty good, having elements of "Penitus." St. Mocianne's (Hard) is a creepy distorted track right up my alley. All the Omega themes are neat, from the remix of I's battle theme to Omega's personal theme(s). Suzaku doesn't disappoint either.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The music overall in this game is standout compared to its main competition, in my opinion. Every time a new patch is released I find myself eager to hear the new tunes and have yet to be disappointed.

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Although I admit I was slightly saddened not to hear a new boss theme in 4.4. I was hoping to hear a new and equally awesome equivalent to Revenge Twofold from 3.4.

Still, O12's theme is pretty amazing in itself.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Although I admit I was slightly saddened not to hear a new boss theme in 4.4. I was hoping to hear a new and equally awesome equivalent to Revenge Twofold from 3.4.

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Yes this, I like Triumph as much as the next person but I think it's time for a new dungeon-end boss theme. On the bright side, we also finally got Primogenitor as a roll in O10 and I'm very happy about that. It's such powerful but elegant theme, definitely befitting the eldest of the dragons.But I digress...

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Originally Posted by ChaoticCrimson

Yes this, I like Triumph as much as the next person but I think it's time for a new dungeon-end boss theme. On the bright side, we also finally got Primogenitor as a roll in O10 and I'm very happy about that. It's such powerful but elegant theme, definitely befitting the eldest of the dragons.But I digress...

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Did we never get one? Seems odd it would be used in three dungeon boss fights between ARR and HW but not have one yet, but I also don't recall ever seeing a drop in the other instances for it...

All in all, I would have liked a new dungeon boss theme but we did get good music for Suzaku and 3/4 of the raid bosses so I can't complain much.

The reason we got a second dungeon music for HW was because Revenge Twofold was a scrapped Nidhogg theme, before they decided to create revenge of the horde, or so they say.
Though considering the lyrics of the orchestra version it's very likely it was that

I was honestly surprised that 3.4 had a new dungeon endboss theme, and did not expect it to become a trend.

Triumph works well enough for me. 5.0 should have something new.

If anything I'm disappointed the final showdown with Zenos (as the endboss of Ala Mhigo) didn't have a unique theme, but I digress...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

If anything I'm disappointed the final showdown with Zenos (as the endboss of Ala Mhigo) didn't have a unique theme, but I digress...

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The final showdown with Zenos in Ala Mhigo was disappointing in ALL KINDS of ways. XD And then he turned into a snake. Which as anyone who reads the Evil Overlord List knows, never helps.

I was really hoping for a Minstrel's Ballad of the Zenos fight, but no such luck.

I still think odds are good we may have some kind of proper Zenos fight in the near future, the way the story's going. I'm still vouching for some battle to use Revolutions before this expansion's up, like both the other main themes have had thus far.

Pretty sure the 4.3 trial had Revolutions for phase 1, or a darker remix of it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Pretty sure the 4.3 trial had Revolutions for phase 1, or a darker remix of it anyway.

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Nighbloom does use bits of the leitmotif, yes. I'd still like to actually have Revolutions proper at some point, it just seems like a waste to not add it to a pivotal battle like the others.

It is idd odd since ARR had Bahamut with Answer and HW had Nidhogg with dragonsong in phase 1. You would expect Revolutions to have the same treatment, but we have only 1 patch left and that trial is going to be Seiryu or Kohryu.
Unless there's one more patch, but chances aren't great

ARR didn't have Answers in an MSQ trail though. Bahamut was the 8-man raid and back then the entire thing was tuned to Savage difficulty and there was no normal. So the majority of the player base didn't get to see it while it was relevent. For most of HW, the devs didn't acknowledge what happened in Binding Coil in the MSQ since some people still didn't know what had happened.

So there's precedent that Revolutions won't be in the MSQ necessarily. However, I don't see them doing it in the Four Lords trials either. It might just end up being a solo instance or they might go back to having two trials in a patch (one MSQ, one Four Lords).

Not saying that it has to be in a MSQ, but it's odd they didn't use it yet.
The songs were used in places where it made sense, answers was used when bahamut destroyed the world as such it made sense for it to appear at the end of the calamity arc which was bahamut, in the same way the final steps of faith was the culmination of the dragonsong war and there it was dragonsong.

4.4 spoilers and possible 4.5 spoilers.

Elidibus and Zolus want to attack Ala Mhigo and I could see Revolutions playing if this happens. Granted, it probably would be in a solo instance and not a trial or raid fight, but it's possible we'll hear it in 4.5 regardless.

I wonder though 4.5 seems to have too much to conclude by itself with trials.
We know that a Yojimbo fight is coming and is probably gonna be a trial fight this time and we are left with Seiryu and Khoryu to deal with not to mention this impending stuff.
Unless they want to compromise and simply have Seiryu+ Yojimbo as a trial and the rest as solo instance, but that would be shameful.
Maybe Seiryu can be a dungeon boss like genbu and only Kohryu be the trial, but really?
Mh dunno

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I wonder though 4.5 seems to have too much to conclude by itself with trials.
We know that a Yojimbo fight is coming and is probably gonna be a trial fight this time and we are left with Seiryu and Khoryu to deal with not to mention this impending stuff.
Unless they want to compromise and simply have Seiryu+ Yojimbo as a trial and the rest as solo instance, but that would be shameful.
Maybe Seiryu can be a dungeon boss like genbu and only Kohryu be the trial, but really?
Mh dunno

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I wouldn't be shocked if 4.5 had the fourth Lord as a trial and then the 'final' battle was a solo instance fight with the four lords aiding you. Fights with npc aid tend to work better in the solo instances, like I don't think the Warriors of Darkness fight would have worked as a trial for example.

The 4.5 dungeon could also play into the 4 lords story but if I had to guess I would think it will be used to help bridge into 5.0 just like Baelsar's Warll.

There's always the slim possibility we'd get two trials in 4.5. Let's not forget Steps of Faith and Chrysalis were both technically under the 2.5 umbrella!

..I can dream, right? That's legal?

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Originally Posted by Rocl

There's always the slim possibility we'd get two trials in 4.5. Let's not forget Steps of Faith and Chrysalis were both technically under the 2.5 umbrella!

..I can dream, right? That's legal?

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It's possible. But I'm not counting on it.

I was confident that 3.5 part 2 would have a story trial where we deal with whatever ilberd summoned. (I thought at the time it would be Rhalgr and that it would be a final trial before SB just like Steps of Faith.) In the end I was wrong and it was Shinryu and we fought it at the end of 4.0.

If I were to bet money I would say the 4th Lord will be a trial in 3.5 and the final encounter will be a solo instance battle where we fight the sealed away baddie with the aid of Soroban and the Four Lords.

I would also guess that the dungeon will tie into the MSQ. Spoilers:

Probably dealing with the attack on ala mhigo or us pushing into Garlemald after it.

There might also be an extra trial but if we get one my money is on Yojimbo with what people have told me about the Hildebrand quests.

Yojimbo? Hildebrand hasn't had trials since ARR. I can't even remember if there was even any combat involved in his HW and SB quests.

So.... looking yet again at the strange piece of architecture that is the Dawn Throne, I have to wonder....

How big was Dalamud?

Were the Allagans building a second one?

They do, after all, have an 'unused' captured dragon tied up and not doing much on Azys Lla...

It's kinda hard to tell, but all three members of the Warring Triad are in smaller versions of Dalamud in the Aetherchemical Research Facility. They just havn't been launched into orbit yet...

Dalamud itself is humongous. You can best see how large it is in the North Shroud. There's a huge curved piece of it lodged in the earth. Anther good places to see how big it is/was is in Eastern Thanalan at the Burning Wall. The pieces of it seem to indicate Dalamud was far wider then the bowl of the Dawn Throne. Dalamud was so big, people thought it was a small moon after all.

Tiamt would never have been contained in something like Dalamud. She is not a primal, which was what Dalamud was designed to contain. She could have been one of the beasts guarding it like Twintania was.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Dalamud itself is humongous.

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Thanks to Coil Turn 5, it's possible to get a ballpark estimate of just how big Dalamud really was. Turn 5 takes place literally on Bahamut's reconstructed hand, so we get a clear indication of how big his hand is in comparison to a human. There was a thread a few years ago that spent some time trying to figure out just how big Bahamut really was. Because Bahamut fit pretty snugly into Dalamud, the answer to that provides a pretty good hint as to how big Dalamud was. The original poster, in trying to figure out Bahamut's size, started with the assumption that Dalamud was similar in size to Menphina, and also made the assumption that Menphina is as large as Earth's moon - neither of which can be assumed, really, and resulted in a Bahamut that was ridiculously large.

Later in the thread, though, Anonymoose made an estimate based on the size of the arena for Turn 5. He put Bahamut's height at roughly 1.7 miles, which seems reasonable, if we accept that Limsa Lominsa (which Bahamut flew over in cutscene) is fairly small compared to many real-life cities. I'm going to guess that Bahamut was balled up pretty tight in Dalamud as the Allagans likely didn't feel the need to take his comfort into consideration, and the smaller an object is, the easier it is to put it into space. So 1.7 miles is also a decent estimate for the diameter of Dalamud, including both Bahamut and the shell around him.

That sounds pretty big - but it's worth noting that it's FAR smaller than even the smallest moon in our solar system (Deimos, at 7 miles), and laughably small compared to our moon (2159 miles) which, presumably, Menphina is based upon. Dalamud likely had a very low orbit in order to be mistaken as a moon. Don't get me wrong, though - any man-made machine that can be measured in miles is a pretty serious hunk of hardware.

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Yojimbo? Hildebrand hasn't had trials since ARR. I can't even remember if there was even any combat involved in his HW and SB quests.

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They already said that the fan fest fight is Yojimbo.

They could still put him in the zodiac raid yes but seems unlikely this time

That sounds about right. You can see satellites that are much smaller then that in orbit after all.

I'd say the stats on the International Space Station are a good starting point for a comparison. The ISS is only 350 feet wide and yet if you're under it when it goes overhead, you can see it if you know what you're looking for. It's weight, it's 450 tons, but that was mostly put together in space. As for it's orbit distance, it's "only" 292 miles out. The Moon's orbit is 239,000 miles out.

Dalamud is way bigger then the ISS is (both size and weight) and it was constructed pre-launch. So it makes sense that a lot of power was needed to get it into orbit. Its orbit distance is pretty interesting as it was not actually orbiting Hydaelyn. What it was really orbiting was Menphina. So it's probably really far out.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

They already said that the fan fest fight is Yojimbo.

They could still put him in the zodiac raid yes but seems unlikely this time

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Eh, if they could finagle a way to put Proto Ultima into Dun Scaith, they could find a reason to put Yojimbo into the new Alliance raid as a mini boss like Proto Ultima. That said, if Yojimbo is in the Hildebrand story and they already have a trial set up for fanfest it may be even easier to just make it a trial since they have it ready anyway.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Eh, if they could finagle a way to put Proto Ultima into Dun Scaith, they could find a reason to put Yojimbo into the new Alliance raid as a mini boss like Proto Ultima. That said, if Yojimbo is in the Hildebrand story and they already have a trial set up for fanfest it may be even easier to just make it a trial since they have it ready anyway.

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The model has already been datamined, I can see how they might be able to snudge him into the zodiac raid though

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Its orbit distance is pretty interesting as it was not actually orbiting Hydaelyn. What it was really orbiting was Menphina. So it's probably really far out.

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It’s possible that Menphina is considerably smaller than Earth’s moon, but also closer to remain the same apparent size?

There are definitely some models of the planet-moon system around (eg. the ‘astrolabe’ staffs for BLM, if nothing else), so I wonder if that has the two moons to scale?

Wonder if the same apparatus used to lift Dalamud into space had anything to do with its actual construction. Also, I'd imagine the Allagans would have probably needed to build around Bahamut somehow while he was still subdued? Hmm...

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It’s possible that Menphina is considerably smaller than Earth’s moon, but also closer to remain the same apparent size?

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It is very possible this is the case. Especially since Menphina isn't a moon anymore then Dalamud was. Menphina, ironically given what she is a goddess of, is Zodiark's prison. So you've got two celestial bodies that are prisons for something with lots of aetheric power rotating around Hydaelyn. I am rather suspicious that the Allgans somehow figured out what Menphina really is and wondered if they could copy it.

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Originally Posted by ChaoticCrimson

Wonder if the same apparatus used to lift Dalamud into space had anything to do with its actual construction. Also, I'd imagine the Allagans would have probably needed to build around Bahamut somehow while he was still subdued? Hmm...

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Bahamut and the Waring Triad were probably locked up in Omega's force fields like Shinryu was. I can see the Allagans building the neurolinks/Dalamud around them before rupturing Omega's fields.

One theory (that I can see being true) is the the Dawn Throne is the remains of Dalamud's launch site or construction site. Given how off any sense of scale is in video-games, the Dawn Throne could easily be as big as Dalamud was. One of the biggest hurdles to overcome to get an object into orbit is weight and Dalamud would have been very, very heavy. So it would need a lot of power to get into orbit. The Dawn Throne isn't that from from the House of the Crooked Coin, so I can see the Allagans watching the launch happen over on the Dawn Throne while they control it from the House. And both the Dawn Throne, the stone pillars around it, and the Crystal in the House have identical motifs carved/drawn on them.

Given how Allagan artifacts don't age, I can see the Dalamud launch/construction site filling with debris over five millennia until the Oronir eventually settled on top of it. It's far enough away from the Crystal Tower for the 4th Umbral Calamity to not have sunk it like the Allagan Capital and Crystal Tower were. For all that the Xaela don't have modern mechanical technology, their skill in enchanting golems like Bardam and carving semi-autonomous chuluu seems to indicate that they do have an advanced knowledge of how aether can be used to effect their surroundings. I can see that being a surviving remnant of the Allagans' knowledge of aetherochemistry, as that part of it wouldn't rely on Allagan tech to function correctly.

The dawn throne doesn't strike me as allagan. It's seemingly made entirely of stone, no advanced technology, and the ruins of the dusk throne just south of it merely display a giant stone statue.
Its not functional, least of all as a space launch facility.

The funny thing is, the Labyrinth of the Ancients is made almost entirely of stone. So are most of the Allgan ruins we see around Cartenau and parts of the Fractal Continuum. While Dalamud and Azys Lla are mostly made out of metal, it seems there was a time in Allag's long history that they used stone (or what looks like stone) a lot. Take out all the flashy crystal accents from the Labyrinth and it looks very similar to the stonework that makes up the Dawn Throne. It's also the case that it's been 5,000 years since the Allagan Empire fell. The Xaela would have had plenty of time to add onto it and without the power supply of the Crystal Tower, any Allagan technology would have stopped functioning millennia ago. That doesn't mean the structure would have collapsed though; Allagan architecture is notoriously hard to destroy. And the Xaela have been taking care of it for as long as they can remember.

The Dusk Throne is specifically mentioned to have been swallowed up by the desert sands, so who knows what is burred under it (see old pictures of the Sphinx for a real-world version of this). I can see the same thing happening to the Dawn Throne, only since it's on the Steppes, it doesn't get buried, but rather filled in.

It does reminds me of HoH structure (the mid floors)

Something that occurred to me... as we now know, the land of Azys Lla was deliberately raised from the ground to become an artificially-floating island, requiring a considerable amount of power to do so.

But why?

Or more specifically, why that land?

Why go to the effort of lifting it from the ground, when plenty of (apparently) natural floating islands already exist?* Why not just set up base somewhere in the Sea of Clouds? Is there something special about that location in particular?



* Re. natural islands - if I remember correctly, one of the moogle crafting quests mentioned that the islands are held aloft because they have large amounts of wind-aspected crystal in the rock, and the moogles are mining it but have to be careful about how much they take.

Of course it's possible the land did just have wind-crystals embedded in it already even though we can't see them - I'm pretty sure Idyllshire must be in that situation anyway. It might not be actually floating, but the rock spires under it are far too fragile to be holding the weight of the city.

Also, 4.4 spoilers re. an earlier post I'd made here.....

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Originally Posted by Iscah

But [Solus isn't] going to be involved in the current events.

At least, I think not.

OMG! Ascians!

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CALLED IT.

It was purely a joke at the time but oh my goodness I called it.

One thing to take into account is how long ago the Allagan Empire was. Corthas only became majorly ice-aspected in the last five years. The Sea of Clouds (an area of that is majorly wind-aspected) is obviously older then that, but how much older? It could easily be the the case that the Sea of Clouds didn't exist yet at the time of the Allagans. It's very possible much of the Three Great Continents were very different in the Allagan Empire then they are today. Who knows how much the four Calamities since then have changed things. Although given by what we know of how much the 4th, 6th and 7th Umbral Calamity changed things, I'm going to bet that the 5th Calamity (an Ice Age) also changed things a lot.

One of the things that has always bothered me about Azys Lla is how close it is to Dravania and Sohm Al. We don't have any information about what state the Dravanian Horde was in at the time of the Allagans. Or if there was a Dravanian Horde back then for that matter. While Hrasevelgr, Nidhogg and Ratatosker seem like they could be old enough to been around at the time of the Allagans, none of Hrasevelgr's kids seem to be old enough. Form the way they act, the Dravanian conflict is the biggest problem they've ever had to tackle. So maybe Azys Lla was put where it was to also keep an eye on Sohm Al which the Dravanians (and maybe the Mercydians?) think is sacred? Or maybe Azys Lla wasn't only over Abalathia's Spine but was constantly moving around, and then with the 4th Umbral Calamity hit, that was where it stopped...

As far the Burn itself if concerned, whatever property the Allagans wanted it for could easily not exist anymore. It hasn't had aether in five thousand years so the region is probably nothing like it was back then. For all we know, the Allagans used the Burn not because of something special about it, but because of where the House of the Crooked Coin was. The bit of crystal we see there is just the tip of the iceberg. The crystal goes underground and who knows how huge it really is. I'm still wondering if it was something the Allagans specifically created to control the aetherflow of the Burn/sore up aetherial energy or if it was something non-Allagan the Allagans found there and realized they could use it to dam the flow of aether to the Burn.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

One of the things that has always bothered me about Azys Lla is how close it is to Dravania and Sohm Al. We don't have any information about what state the Dravanian Horde was in at the time of the Allagans. Or if there was a Dravanian Horde back then for that matter. While Hrasevelgr, Nidhogg and Ratatosker seem like they could be old enough to been around at the time of the Allagans, none of Hrasevelgr's kids seem to be old enough. Form the way they act, the Dravanian conflict is the biggest problem they've ever had to tackle. So maybe Azys Lla was put where it was to also keep an eye on Sohm Al which the Dravanians (and maybe the Mercydians?) think is sacred? Or maybe Azys Lla wasn't only over Abalathia's Spine but was constantly moving around, and then with the 4th Umbral Calamity hit, that was where it stopped...

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I think there's little doubt that Hras, Niddy, and Rata were alive at the time of the Allagans, given that two others of the First Brood (Tiamat and Bahamut) most definitely were. Unless the seven eggs Midgardsormr brought with him hatched at wildly different times, I suppose (we don't really know how long it takes dragon eggs to hatch). Without evidence against, though, I'd guess they'd all have hatched within a year of one another. At the time of the Meracydian conflict, both Tiamat and Bahamut had reached full adulthood, and its likely that the others of the First Brood had, as well.

Why the Allagans harassed the dragons of Meracydia, and not those of Dravania, I don't know. Perhaps the Dravanians went into hiding after they saw what went down at Meracydia, or perhaps the conflict in Meracydia was costly enough to the Allagans that they put off invading Dravania until the Calamity rendered their ambitions moot. It's not out of the question to assume, though, that Azys Lla was positioned to keep an eye on the Dravanians, along with its other purposes.