Gender Bias in Character Creation

Frankly, the only sliders I really want in SE (For body type) is Waist, Hip, and Chest (width) sliders to vary the body type, as well as making the muscle slider universal across all races.

My potato is not an amorphous blob, but a lean mean tank :>

I want them to add a groin slider to males that either generates a sphere in the crotch, or when you're wearing pants adds an obvious additional object running down one of the legs. They could also add one that increases/decreases specularity on the abs when you're wearing something that shows them.

We don't need a slider. We just need a visible bulge to reflect our anatomy. The option for body hair would be great, too.

As for the people claiming that a bulge isn't the equivalent for breasts, those same individuals would very likely be crying foul if they didn't have their precious breast sliders in various games. I wonder how many of these outspoken individuals set the size to the lowest possible option?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

We don't need a slider. We just need a visible bulge to reflect our anatomy. The option for body hair would be great, too.

As for the people claiming that a bulge isn't the equivalent for breasts, those same individuals would very likely be crying foul if they didn't have their precious breast sliders in various games. I wonder how many of these outspoken individuals set the size to the lowest possible option?

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Agreed, an Overwatch style bulge would suffice; no need for sliders.

I'd like nipples as well...

Icesis comes off as one of those millennials who think "Everything is Sexist. Everything is Racist. Everything is Homophobic," and they have to "point it all out." That, or they just have a lot of time on their hands. I don't see a lot, if any, logic behind this argument. If a woman's breasts = a man's crotch, what does that make a woman's crotch? Is that equal to anything? I don't see any requests to increase the size of the female characters' mons pubis, yet she wants to advocate increasing the male characters' groin? Sounds quite sexist to me, especially, since she's the one objectifying men's physical attributes.

I just want a neck slider for elezens . . .

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Originally Posted by BluntGamerChick

One of the running jokes, at least among my group, is how guys with baggy pants must need to obscure the fact they lack anything to show. But, I am not trying to debate who is more naughty I am simply pointing out that if a game is going to provide a sizer to a female Avatar then there should be an equal superficial attribute slider for the men.

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I suggest reading on actual biology about that part of a human body. The "bulge" of a guy during normal activity have absolute zero to do with it...eh...for the more private activities. The sizes in those two states are completely independent of each other.

And yes, the privates are not equivalent of breasts. Men have breasts too, by the way. If you want "fairness", you should ask for a breast slider for men. Go to a beach and look for an obese man and you'll see breasts in full swing. The fact that males hormones are set to NOT prioritize putting fat onto their breasts if there's space somewhere else does not mean that the breasts of men and women are different body parts. They're not.


As for the suggestion itself...well, irrelevant. It won't happen. There's no reason for it to happen. There's no relevance to it even if it did happen. And it's not even particularly fun.

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

I just want a neck slider for elezens . . .

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http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2.../5/5d/Nope.png

I just want an ass slider. My cat girl alt looks awkwardly highschoolish no matter how mature I try to make her appear.

I'd be fine with

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Originally Posted by Theodric

We don't need a slider. We just need a visible bulge to reflect our anatomy. The option for body hair would be great, too.

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^this. I don't need a whole pack of socks stuffed in there but some bottoms look weird being ken-doll flat lol

butt slider too ayyy

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Originally Posted by Antonio_Xul

I find that pointless as every male character will just put it to the max setting.

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Unless your last name is Tia, dohoho

Isn't Conan Exiles more something like ARK: Survival Evolved? A survival game :)
And honestly if you think that it's sexist you already have a muscle slider on males i think so that is equal and there is no point in discussing this.
Also if you know common anatomy breasts are not the same as male naughty bits.

Change my mind.

I like this thread. It's fun. OP thinks she's the only female on the forum, that females that play male characters are rare, and because of that, her opinion and likes are set-in-stone fact for how every woman thinks and likes.

I really wouldn't mind a bulge increase or if it never gets bigger. It doesn't really matter at all to me. What I'd like is a better figure for males in general. Their bodies aren't very good. Not really much shape to them, they're just a straight line with some muscles. Skinny muscles at that.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

they're just a straight line with some muscles. Skinny muscles at that.

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Skinny muscles?

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Originally Posted by CainCrimson

Skinny muscles?

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Hmm.. Like the muscles on the male characters seem like they have no real mass to them. It's like they are just drawn on lol. Essentially flat muscles? There's just something really off about the male bodies in this game. I mean look, the characters barely even have abs or real pecs.

EDIT: Oh and just to be clear, I'll add that Roes and Highlander males don't really count. They are better. Could be improved though...

On the sexualized aspect of breast and male junk, idk if that is necessarily true :P Even porn stars used to suggest you leave the mini me outta sight till it was needed :P So imo the muscle slider for males is more akin to the breasts slider for women.

Reason for "drawn" muscles is namely cuz the slider is more about tone that size imo. You don't bulk up you just cut "fat". Would be nice if they did like shoulder size sliders to kinda beef up actual muscle mass on characters. (females too I wouldn't mind some "Amazoness" options besides femroe :P)

Breasts are not the same as a male’s junk. The equivalent would be a lady’s junk below the belt, and we don’t have a slider for that.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

Hmm.. Like the muscles on the male characters seem like they have no real mass to them. It's like they are just drawn on lol. Essentially flat muscles? There's just something really off about the male bodies in this game. I mean look, the characters barely even have abs or real pecs.

EDIT: Oh and just to be clear, I'll add that Roes and Highlander males don't really count. They are better. Could be improved though...

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Ahh I get you. built like featherweight boxers or less basically. Aside from Highlanders, agreed

How about a weight slider, muscle slider, butt slider, and a hip slider. Those are only sliders wish they had that they don't.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

How about a weight slider, muscle slider, butt slider, and a hip slider. Those are only sliders wish they had that they don't.

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I want all that food we eat to affect ouR body weight, make us be more aware of what we're scarfing down.



...or maybe I need to go play Grand Theft Auto San Andreas again lol.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

We don't need a slider. We just need a visible bulge to reflect our anatomy. The option for body hair would be great, too.

As for the people claiming that a bulge isn't the equivalent for breasts, those same individuals would very likely be crying foul if they didn't have their precious breast sliders in various games. I wonder how many of these outspoken individuals set the size to the lowest possible option?

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They're clearly not equivalent though, otherwise breast sliders would be as rare as bulge sliders.

Okay first of all, the same value is applied to everyone. The value just have different meaning for each race. It's not a gender thing, they are the race special attribute.
Tails = miqo te / au ra
Muscles = hyur / roegadyn
Ears = lalafell / eleZen

If they're adding a muscle value for every race, that means hyur / roegadyn lose their special attribute. Might try recommend a replacement of what makes each race unique.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

They're clearly not equivalent though, otherwise breast sliders would be as rare as bulge sliders.

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They are, though. Unless you want to pretend as if things like breast sliders aren't added with sex appeal in mind. The degree at which they are sexual may differ slightly but not to a huge extent.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

They are, though. Unless you want to pretend as if things like breast sliders aren't added with sex appeal in mind. The degree at which they are sexual may differ slightly but not to a huge extent.

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That’s what muscle sliders are for. THAT is the equivalent for breasts, not a man’s bulge. Breasts are not genitalia, a mans business is. They are NOT THE SAME THING. Breasts are an attractive part of the female body, and the muscles of a man are the attractive part of their body. If you think they are the same thing, you need a lesson in anatomy.

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

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They're very similar in terms of serving as an attractive trait to those so inclined. To pretend otherwise is quite simply a matter of dishonesty.

The difference is that video-games have frequently been created with the 'Straight Male Gaze' in mind and as such it is considered to be perfectly acceptable for female characters to have breast sliders and very skimpy gear options. Male characters, however, very rarely have even the hint of a bulge and body hair is often just as rare.

As far as a muscle slider is concerned, that isn't even an option for every male/race combination. Yet, mysteriously, the breast slider is an option for every female/race combo.

as a female playing a male character...I would like a butt slider, and possibly a groin/pec/abs slider. This is not to say I don't have female Alts, I do, but they're tiny and small busted because I think a female looks better that way to me.

As someone that has been listening to the Live Letters, it looks like that's a bit far off, if ever. Would I max those sliders out? no, probably not.

Do I think that male characters should get more options? Yes. There are plenty of options that I think could work, that would be pleasing to many people that make male characters that are male and that are female as well.

There is something supremely disturbing about people thinking that breasts and a male's groin are in any way equatable.

Would make more sense to ask for a pectoral slider, or a muscle slider for all men since females get the extra breast slider.

It’s odd how all characters have mostly ‘fit’ body types. They should have a ‘pudge’ or ‘plump’ slider....let’s see some players with bellies and muffin tops. For real, it would make character design more diverse.

Could be worse. We could have a creator like BDO, that allows glisteny, slick, torpedo boobs <ack>.

I wish the muscle slider for Hyur females - even Highlanders - actually did something. I consider the max-muscle set point on female Hyur, barely even a good start on what a fit athletic woman looks like.

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Originally Posted by uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu

Okay first of all, the same value is applied to everyone. The value just have different meaning for each race. It's not a gender thing, they are the race special attribute.
Tails = miqo te / au ra
Muscles = hyur / roegadyn
Ears = lalafell / eleZen

If they're adding a muscle value for every race, that means hyur / roegadyn lose their special attribute. Might try recommend a replacement of what makes each race unique.

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I agree with you. They can't just unlock 2 races' special feature for everyone without giving something new in return. I suggest that Hyur and Roegadyn males get a body hair slider if other males get a muscle slider.

I think the equivalent of a bulge slider would be a camel toe slider, but the latter would send the game rating through the roof.

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Originally Posted by BluntGamerChick

But its just so disappointing when you set the buffet and forget to put out the meat LMAO!

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Gotta say I love your sense of humour, goodness that had me creased up!
https://i.imgur.com/9zCLYpn.gif

To the topic at hand (no pun intended, my bad D: ), more options is always a good thing in my opinion, I'm refraining from commenting on package sliders, trying to behave myself (for a change!)

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The difference is that video-games have frequently been created with the 'Straight Male Gaze' in mind and as such it is considered to be perfectly acceptable for female characters to have breast sliders and very skimpy gear options. Male characters, however, very rarely have even the hint of a bulge and body hair is often just as rare.

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Yeah, it's definitely that, straight men would be outraged if they had the option to give their character loads of body hair and a massive dong.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The difference is that video-games have frequently been created with the 'Straight Male Gaze' in mind and as such it is considered to be perfectly acceptable for female characters to have breast sliders and very skimpy gear options. Male characters, however, very rarely have even the hint of a bulge and body hair is often just as rare.

As far as a muscle slider is concerned, that isn't even an option for every male/race combination. Yet, mysteriously, the breast slider is an option for every female/race combo.

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Seemingly unironic mention of "The Male Gaze"...

... thank you, internet, for never ceasing to amaze me.

But honestly in current year 2018 are we still letting this lazy rhetoric fly? Absolutely none of the characters in this game have real flaws or anything inherently unattractive about them, to say "the women are pretty, must be for men" is just as nonsensical as saying "the men are buff, must be for women" like... no, just no. They are all juat reasonably attractive people with enough variation between them to make distinct races.

Stop reading into this, it's silly.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Seemingly unironic mention of "The Male Gaze"...

... thank you, internet, for never ceasing to amaze me.

Stop reading into this, it's silly.

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It's not silly rhetoric - it's a legitimate theory from modern literary (and media) criticism. Overused, perhaps, but certainly not an internet buzzword. The Male Gaze (the straight part is naturally assumed) would explain the Male Bunny outfit fiasco, given that its is assumed that anything aesthetic related will be catering to the male audience first e.g sexualisation of the female characters (check), males lack costume options that the females have (check), breast sliders (check) this entire conversation (check).
Not saying we should all get wrapped up in it - bit it is a thing and whether you think it needs to be addressed is up to you.
Either way - this game does seem to skirt the line between legitimate MMO and dark wank-fantasy sometimes, which is hilarious and sort of endearing.

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

It’s odd how all characters have mostly ‘fit’ body types. They should have a ‘pudge’ or ‘plump’ slider....let’s see some players with bellies and muffin tops. For real, it would make character design more diverse.

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YES! OHMYGOD-.. YES!

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

It's not silly rhetoric - it's a legitimate theory from modern literary (and media) criticism...

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The legitimacy of "The Male Gaze" as a viable and reasonable media evaluation standard certainly diminishes once you leave certain schools of thought behind, particularly third-wave feminism. Next people are going to start evaluating questlines based on the Bechdel Test.

This thread has gone off the deep end. If you think this game borders on a "dark wank fantasy"perhaps that speaks more to your own thought process than that of the dev team.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

The legitimacy of "The Male Gaze" as a viable and reasonable media evaluation standard certainly diminishes once you leave certain schools of thought behind, particularly third-wave feminism. Next people are going to start evaluating questlines based on the Bechdel Test.

This thread has gone off the deep end. If you think this game borders on a "dark wank fantasy"perhaps that speaks more to your own thought process than that of the dev team.

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Oh don't be so prissy. It's a joke. But it's not not a thing.
Anyway - without wanting to derail anymore I'll leave it there but the Male Gaze has nothing to do with third-wave feminism, it's a completely separate thing.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

(...)would explain the Male Bunny outfit fiasco, given that its is assumed that anything aesthetic related will be catering to the male audience(...)

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There is no such thing as male bunny outfit in real life. For a reason, too. It's simply unappealing to majority of men AND women since the original bunny costume that was made and so widely spread have simply made any attempt either ridiculous and unappealing...or a completely different thing.

If you're making a ball, it needs to be spherical. If it's not spherical, then it's not a ball. "Bunny outfit" is a specific piece that needs to be made in a specific way. And that is very feminine. If you want a bunny-inspired outfit...now, that's a different thing. But it's not a bunny outfit anymore (ironically).

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

(...)e.g sexualisation of the female characters (check)(...)

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This is a ridiculous argument.

If they're attractive it's "oversexualization of female characters". If they're unattractive it's "degrading female characters". Seriously...

Making female characters is clearly sexualizing the characters. You know, that's why it's called a humans sex. Cause it relates to SEXUAL traits. It's absolutely, utterly, biologically impossible to not sexualize any male or female character in any way, shape or form. If you want to avoid sexualization look up "gray allien" images. That's how the character would need to look.

Besides, making unattractive or "normal"-looking characters is a lot HARDER than making attractive ones. That's because you need to ADD details. After all, everyone could be a lot more attractive if details that make them into unique people that they are would look more beautiful/handsome, since it's those defining details that cause displeasure. Symmetry (impossible in real life) and lack of imperfections (virtually impossible in real life) are sure-fire way to raise someones attractiveness in every persons opinion, regardless of gender. And that's the easiest way to design characters.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

If you're making a ball, it needs to be spherical. If it's not spherical, then it's not a ball..

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Unless it's American football.