I keep running into Astro running Shields in Farm PTs as a SCH. (Why?)

The Adlo and Succor tooltips say "Cannot be stacked with Nocturnal Sect." No mention of the Nocturnal Field effect.

Even if we're going to compare those two, Nocturnal Field vs. Nocturnal Sect, the fact is that the tooltip is extremely inaccurate by only mentioning Adlo, because one could reasonably assume, at surface level from reading only that tooltip, that it would stack with Succor. So it should say either "Cannot be stacked with Galvanize" or "Cannot be stacked with Adloquium or Succor." They went the right way with Noct Sect on the Scholar tooltips.

So, I guess I'll advance that re-updated wording to Square Enix as a suggestion.

It has happened at least 4 times with me.Its called being an asshole I am sure they know what they are doing BUT would rather troll instead.If the ast gets hit by an attack, I don't bother healing that person.I just ignore their health lol I can be a asshole too you see.

If an AST is stupid enough to go into Noct with a SCH, I would desummon my fairy and proceed to not heal at all. He clearly thinks he can do a better job, so by all means.

Just my two cents as in AST if you have a WHM go noctural unless HoT stacks would be better then shields for the fight. if you have a SHC for al lthat is holy go dinural so your not useless..

Nocturnal AST with a SCH is not the worst thing. In fact, just do not do any shielding with Succor or Adlo unless with Deployment Tactics for big raid damage. You just have to rely a lot more on Emergency Tactics, Lustrate, Excogitation, and Fairy abilities to heal. Nocturnal AST has much better shields in general than SCH with Aspected Benefic and Aspected Helios. Instead of spending your GCD to heal as SCH, just hit Broil II instead. :)


Most situations in this game do not really require that much heals per second (HPS) to survive damage on the party or tanks so losing out on SCH shields is not critical.

you can clear content with noct ast + scholar but it's incredibly inefficient and also, frankly, rude. ast has the choice to use hots or shields, scholar does not. ast's shields being numerically better than sch doesn't matter when you're with a scholar because the combination of hots and shields is the best combination to play with. as nocturnal, i have to spend a bit more time actually casting heals because i can't, say, throw a hot on the group and let that take care of the rest. that's time i spent picking them up could have been better spent with us both dpsing rather than just the scholar that got screwed out of using an important part of his toolkit for an egotistical astrologian.

you can clear content with any silly combination of jobs, that doesn't make it a reasonable not a-holish thing to do.

Reminds me of that one AST I got paired with as SCH for bismark hard. I initially asked him not to go Noct and he seemed "reluctant" to change. After the inevitable wipe because the tanks refused to seprate the serpents he apparently thought the tank problem justified him to switch to Noct and shut down part of my kit.

Please don't be that guy. Use common sense.

The funny thing in all of this is that, in DF or outdated content, HoTs are almost always so much better and valuable than shields. Nocturnal AST is easily the worst healer in the game if you think about GCD efficiency. NoctAST has no fairy or HoT (save for CU), so they can't put out sustained healing, neither in single target or raidwide, which makes it so going Noct with a SCH not only means you're usually invalidating a portion of SCH's healing kit, it also means you're making the job of healing more taxing on both you and the other healer, since Nocturnal Sect considers WHM's sustained healing into its balance. You're forcing both the other healer and yourself to use more GCDs and spend more MP. It's just a really dumb thing to do, and people who do it are definitely bad players, even more so if they do it out of pettiness.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

Nocturnal AST with a SCH is not the worst thing. In fact, just do not do any shielding with Succor or Adlo unless with Deployment Tactics for big raid damage. You just have to rely a lot more on Emergency Tactics, Lustrate, Excogitation, and Fairy abilities to heal. Nocturnal AST has much better shields in general than SCH with Aspected Benefic and Aspected Helios. Instead of spending your GCD to heal as SCH, just hit Broil II instead. :)

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AST's shields aren't that "much better" anymore, though. They were at the end of HW and start of SB, but after Succor got buffed, the party shields are comparable. The only big difference is between Adlo and Asp Benefic, but it's still not a great spell to use, as the Diurnal version is just so much more valuable. SCH even has more potential powerful party shields thanks to Deployent Tactics, stackable single target healing buffs, and the critlo mechanic. You're right in saying that in DF and outdated content the regen+shields dychotomy is rarely ever important, but this synergy gets more value if a group is unpredictable and takes a lot of avoidable damage or dies a lot, which is also something that can happen a lot in DF and PF, particularly 24 man raids.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

Nocturnal AST with a SCH is not the worst thing. In fact, just do not do any shielding with Succor or Adlo unless with Deployment Tactics for big raid damage. You just have to rely a lot more on Emergency Tactics, Lustrate, Excogitation, and Fairy abilities to heal. Nocturnal AST has much better shields in general than SCH with Aspected Benefic and Aspected Helios. Instead of spending your GCD to heal as SCH, just hit Broil II instead. :)


Most situations in this game do not really require that much heals per second (HPS) to survive damage on the party or tanks so losing out on SCH shields is not critical.

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Not a good way to work with most cohealers. Honestly you want to make half of someone’s tool kit void people will start overlapping your shields just to make you mad. The run is already inefficient so if I waste my mp to make a useless cohealer mad makes no difference to me. Or I’d just not heal all together clearly if you want to make my heals ineffective you don’t need me as a healer.

Well some new AST's may not know that because i have seen it before. But most of the time, they are being the ultimate Eorzean cock. I had encountered once an AST like this when i was farming Emanation, and i just didn't use any shields. If we wipe, not my problem. If he/she wants to work double, not my problem. If he/she wants to be a chocochick, i let them be unless party agrees to kick them. Because i am tired of wasting my breath towards people like that. I either leave if it doesn't work out, or ask party to kick the player.

Other than people who are not English and cannot understand some elements in the game like this (it may easily be missed and no one is perfect, not knowing isn't a sin), i just prefer to stay away from these people. I can farm stuff with another group or another day unless party doesn't understand what's wrong etc.

I've stopped asking ASTs to switch now. True, I'm on WHM so it's not as bad as SCH have it but it still grates. I can literally feel the overheals ticking away.
But, there are hills to die on and the DF is certainly not one of them.

I have the opposite problem, I like to go diurnal when I'm with a WHM on easy content simply because it's more heal per cast and I have access to another regen.

But even if the boss does nothing that could make a shield remotely useful people still ask me to go nocturnal because '' shields''

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I have the opposite problem, I like to go diurnal when I'm with a WHM on easy content simply because it's more heal per cast and I have access to another regen.

But even if the boss does nothing that could make a shield remotely useful people still ask me to go nocturnal because '' shields''

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Preventing damage is still strictly better than healing up the damage later, so you should be going Nocturnal with a WHM even if the shields "don't seem very useful".

Just ran into another AST in Shinryu ex who didn't understand why I kept asking him to switch out of nocturnal. Even some of my PT members were like so whats the problem. I feel like people just want to watch the world burn. Man.

I had fun last night. I am doing Shinryu NM because of TT card, so i ran like 20 times already yesterday (yeah RNG hates me).

So in my last run last night, i was with an astro, who didn't use any sects at the beginning of the fight. When it was add time, he popped nocturnal sect ofc :3

I said ''please don't overwrite my shields'' (i had way better ilvl) but ofc he didn't listen. We wiped afterwards i don't remember why.

I said ''please go into diurnal sect''. He typed this: ''I heal tank, you dps. or i have no mana okay?'' I was like DUDE WTH. He continued: ''i can't heal everything you know you heal too''.

I never knew i was the healer guys <3 he opened my eyes omg. Anyway, all he did was spam aspected helios for shields ALL THE FIGHT. He didn't even cast a cure or somekind, he just used shields over and over and dps kept dying, i kept raising people and healing ofc because he had no mana all the time, he didn't use mana regen at all. He didn't use any of his cards too ofc. Then after we clear, because he healed so well, he goes ''gg everyone''.

I was really confused :D I thought i had seen the worst healer in game till last night. He was lv70 and idk how he got there with that ability :D

Yeah well, good luck topping this i guess :D

p.s. i didn't get any comm either, because probably i bitched about it, i wouldn't be surprised if they gave comms to astro lol.

AHonestly its probably just misinformation

Aspected benefic is decent pot and then you see that "woah 250%" and figure its better than schs shields which are only as much as they heal for ignoring the crit bonus

Nocturnal also boosts heals more than diurnal which may contribute

My advice would just be to let them shield
Asp benefic is insta cast unlike adlo
And with indom and emergency succor sch has TREMEMDOUS HEALS
If theyre so insecure as to go out of their way to do half of what you can let them do it

I cant speak for savage raids
But even in ridorana i can indom the party back to like 90% from any raid wides
A normal adlo or eos regen will top them off from that if i want
You have more than just shields after all
Show it off and steal all the comms lol
Asts aren't strong enough heal wise to stop you
Perhaps youll make them realize theyre gimping themselves by neglecting theyre versatility

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Originally Posted by vVAstrAVv

My advice would just be to let them shield
Asp benefic is insta cast unlike adlo
And with indom and emergency succor sch has TREMEMDOUS HEALS
If theyre so insecure as to go out of their way to do half of what you can let them do it

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You realise that by letting the AST go Nocturnal you are literally losing a portion of your kit as a SCH? I mean it's one thing to have your Aether actions, but Shields and Deployment Tactics are what make SCH what it is. It's really better to encourage the AST to go Diurnal at all times when a SCH is present, but of course no one can force them.

for me AST is out of three healer who really need good awareness of your surrounding and party. which card to chose, which healing spell, which card for who, which utility, there is so much we can do as AST.

its also the most jarring class if it handled by bad / below average player. unlike WHM or SCH, the contrast for AST between good and bad player is very obvious.

- using same stance (both AST same stance, same regen stance with WHM, etc)
- bad card choice (ewer to blm/drk <-- seen this a lot)
- stingy with card (keep card on hand and only use it on boss)

combine with the typical healer mistake (spam aoe nonstop, spam cure 2 over and over instead of 1) i say yeah, if you see bad AST, they are indeed bad.

@kurando
Its just not worth convincing every pick up co healer
If its not ex or savage youll be fine by just adapting and being better than them

It's not really a competition of who is better though, general PvE content is about working together. Sure if an AST doesn't want to change sects then fine, can't really do anything about it, but there is no harm in asking them to switch. It benefits the entire party much more than playing the sizing contest...

Youre taking too literally what was said just to help ops anxiety a bit man -_-

Like in that situation its not really in their own best interest to take even easy content 100% serious when he can just shrug it off with an "oh well ill just be better than them"

It is a game
And while it would be nice
Not everything has to be optimal

No one said anything "had" to be optimal nor did I suggest people can't play the game how they want. I think you are creating your own interpretation of what I am trying to say. Perhaps it's better if you agree to disagree maybe?

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Preventing damage is still strictly better than healing up the damage later, so you should be going Nocturnal with a WHM even if the shields "don't seem very useful".

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

I've stopped asking ASTs to switch now. True, I'm on WHM so it's not as bad as SCH have it but it still grates. I can literally feel the overheals ticking away.
But, there are hills to die on and the DF is certainly not one of them.

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Frankly, Diurnal is the better stance. Even with a WHM, Diurnal 'should' be used unless shields are absolutely needed (as in, attacks will oneshot the tank/party without the shield. Even most savage/extreme content does not meet this criterion). Saying that preventing damage is better is just flat out wrong. Regens are vastly more effective than shields, allow more uptime for DPSing, are more MP efficient, and so on.

*'should' as in optimal play. If you just find Noct more fun, then by all means use it.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Frankly, Diurnal is the better stance. Even with a WHM, Diurnal 'should' be used unless shields are absolutely needed (as in, attacks will oneshot the tank/party without the shield. Even most savage/extreme content does not meet this criterion). Saying that preventing damage is better is just flat out wrong. Regens are vastly more effective than shields, allow more uptime for DPSing, are more MP efficient, and so on.

*'should' as in optimal play. If you just find Noct more fun, then by all means use it.

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I would agree here. I enjoy double regen healing, though there are certain weaknesses that you just can't fully cover with it. Some of my favorite o5s&o6s runs were double WHM. The throughput of regens is nothing to laugh at.