Petition - Bring back the Need button in 24 mans

Because of this new rule I refuse to do the 24 man solo.

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Originally Posted by Akamadoshi

Ah, no, as stated, when someone said of needing an item it was always negotiated in peace. I was in shock when greed happened (It was not me who put greed, other players) it was few occasions I witness them getting harassed/bullied for greeding (and the ones who needed never had said anything) It was in my opinion very harsh ,, if I need an item I tend to ask the group if it is okay to. This happens a lot, with no issue. But I had experiences where it was not said, and when someone greed on something - it was terrible. But as you have suggested is always the best!

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Yeah that's not actually the "Need" and "Greed" options in the game. If anyone in the group "Needs", you don't see the "Greed" rolls at all. So no one would be able to harass someone for choosing the Greed option. It does sound like a situation where no one could select "Need" so everyone had the "Greed" option and someone asked the party to hit "Pass" instead. And one person didn't. Drama ensues. It happens and most of the time people aren't doing it on purpose. They're just on auto with what they pick trying to get the window out of their face.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

A thread about this already exists on the JP side.

It mentions a dev post saying they implemented this so that players wouldn't be locked out of getting gear for alt classes that were too under-geared for the raid, but they'll assess the feedback they get and make a decision of whether to continue it or not. Most responses are unhappy about it (one asks, "did we even ask for this?" lol) and the highest rated responses are along the vein of "please change it back", "this just makes getting drops more difficult" or "it's frustrating watching someone on a different job take loot for a class you're playing."

I don't see them keeping this new rule for long, really.

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That's interesting, because a FC mate told me that this was only made because JP players, who are considered more 'polite' than NA players, asked for it. The dev reasoning makes no sense, either. No one is 'locked out' of getting a drop for an alternate class unless someone on that class who needs the gear rolls need on it.

SE has done a lot of things over the years that were complicated but you could find a bit of sense just there at the very bottom, even re-forcing cutscenes back on us in MSQ roulette. There is absolutely nothing about this change that makes any sense at all, especially if JP didn't ask for it, either.

As it stands right now there zero reason to go on your main character (mostly affects tanks and heals) because you're not guaranteed the loot if it drops and you're the only one who can use it. Why go through the headache of harder, more stressful jobs for less reward?

The fact someone who doesn't even have the job unlocked can outroll someone who is on their main the completely ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

I'm baffled as to why people think that they can't get gear on their sub classes while going on their mains. I used to go on healer ALL the time to 24 mans and yet greed on other items. Due to the lockout nature, competition was very low and if I really wanted something, then I should have to come as that class.

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This. When I main healer after I got all the stuff I wanted I'd simply greed any chest or legs that showed up and I still geared the heck out of my alts.

This new greed rule attempts to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Not sure how Need works but if Need has priority over Greed, I would like that back coz I don't wanna get gear someone else needs more. I roll greed all the time for stuff so I can get GC seals and company credits, plus now there's the Doman reconstruction. Getting gear for trading/donating should be second to improving a player's preferred class. I'm not gonna start passing up on high level gear though. But come on, priorities.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

That's interesting, because a FC mate told me that this was only made because JP players, who are considered more 'polite' than NA players, asked for it. The dev reasoning makes no sense, either. No one is 'locked out' of getting a drop for an alternate class unless someone on that class who needs the gear rolls need on it.

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If the JP players are more polite, they don't need this change. Then can politely ask someone to decline to roll for someone else.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

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I'd heard the same thing, but it doesn't seem to be as popular as the devs think, if true. The OP (which was against it) now has over 100 likes, and the "bring it back" posts average about 40. There is some support for it, but digging through the recent posts, the majority wants rid.

I guess their intent was to improve the chances of getting gear for alts by getting rid of the Need barrier. Unfortunately, it's just made life harder for everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

link 1

link 2

link 3

Y'all can translate more if you want.

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/signed.

Quoting myself for links to the Japanese thread about it so people can see for themselves. It is a bonehead change that no one but very few select people like. Most of the people in the game have been getting angry and starting party fights over loot because of it (in Ridorana/Rabanasty at least - older raids just seem to be met with confusion and the occasional off comment about how this sucks).

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

/signed.

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Thanks for the link, when I tried the URL kept going crazy.

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Originally Posted by Vondoomervil

I know I'm the minority (At least in the US community) But I actually like it.

Lets me be able to play my main, while have the chance to get gear on ALL other classes.

So no.... Leave it off thank you.

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........what a stupid post. Play the class you want in the raid and get the gear YOU NEED.

I believe someone in the JP community wanted this change because they wanted to take their already geared out mains to the 24 man raid so they can roll gear for their alt jobs without having to play them so not to lose efficiency by having to play an alt.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I believe someone in the JP community wanted this change because they wanted to take their already geared out mains to the 24 man raid so they can roll gear for their alt jobs without having to play them so not to lose efficiency by having to play an alt.

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But you don't have to play an alt. You can still Greed on your main. You only lost the chance if someone actually on that class was in the party so they could Need. A fair trade, in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

But you don't have to play an alt. You can still Greed on your main. You only lost the chance if someone actually on that class was in the party so they could Need. A fair trade, in my eyes.

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I think it was some people then felt obligated to go on that alt to roll need on the gear they wanted and the alt being less geared was a loss of efficiency for that player when they could of used their main which was more geared.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I think it was some people then felt obligated to go on that alt to roll need on the gear they wanted and the alt being less geared was a loss of efficiency for that player when they could of used their main which was more geared.

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That was the perception a player was pushing in the other thread before the change dropped. A few google translates of the current state of the Japanese forums shows most players aren't actually as happy with this as that one player or the developers seemed to believe. Most are just as confused as we are.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

If the JP players are more polite, they don't need this change. Then can politely ask someone to decline to roll for someone else.

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Not only that, but I believe that the dev should've just said them to play that job if they want that reward ( which I think thay said that once for some other reason which I don't remember)

I don't ever and will never run 24 man raids, but I liked your post and agree.

I think the removal of the need button is actually a mistake, that doesn't really benefit anyone much unlike the MSQ roulette change.

In the spirit of being semi-open minded, I did go ahead and try it. My first run through however did nothing to change my mind about how awful this is going to feel. First of all, seeing as almost the entire group was new, it was a mess for both me and the other white mage I was co-healing with. Every fight it was a frantic game of trying to keep each other alive so we could not only help raise our entire alliance from the ground two to three times a boss, but also to help raise the other alliance healers when they both went down. It might have at least felt a challenge worth the reward when finally on the last boss a pair of healer gloves dropped. Guess what though, neither I or the other White Mage roll high enough and they end up going to a Red Mage who spent most of the run eating ground.

As someone who A. Levels other classes on actual different characters and therefore is only there to gear the Job I'm actively participating as and B. wouldn't roll on job gear I wasn't playing as in an all greed situation anyway, I was more than a little ticked off. Ticked off enough that if it happens again before the last boss, I'd be very, very tempted to stop paying any attention to the person who did it. You die after stealing healer gear while on a DPS job? I hope you figure out a way to bring yourself back to life. Have a nice day.

Now that I tried it and I didn't really like it didn't get what I wanted cause of it had to settle for something else.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

As it stands right now there zero reason to go on your main character (mostly affects tanks and heals) because you're not guaranteed the loot if it drops and you're the only one who can use it. Why go through the headache of harder, more stressful jobs for less reward?

The fact someone who doesn't even have the job unlocked can outroll someone who is on their main the completely ridiculous.

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Ok, context is lost on a lot of people. I don't care about the change, I liked N>G, I don't care about all greed, and here is why: Just because some CAN outroll you if they don't have the job, doesn't mean they will. There is a weekly lockout remember, so people will go into the raid with a specific idea of what gear they want to get, people aren't just going to loot on everything because they can. I got my NIN piece this week as soon as it dropped, not because I got lucky with my rolls, but because I was the only person to roll on it, and on top of that, there were many pieces of gear that just simply dropped to the floor. Your only competition in 24man now are party members who are also seeking that particular piece that you are needing (and they could very well need it more than you if they aren't running the raid as it).

Having said that, they should definately bring N>G back to the older 24man dungeons because there is no weekly restriction (or at least rabanastre as a start).

I don't care about it being 'all greed'... 24man raids are just for glamour, and quite frankly Rabanastre has had very underwhelming armor models thus far.

Unfavourable opinion, but after the initial shock (and frustration), I'm okay with this greed-only button. It DOES suck when trying to gear up a specific class, but I'm trying to gear up multiple classes so it's working out for me okay so far.

Greed Only would work fine in non-current 24-mans. In current 24-mans, no. Please put back a Need option in 24-mans during their relative patch.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Greed Only would work fine in non-current 24-mans. In current 24-mans, no. Please put back a Need option in 24-mans during their relative patch.

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I would argue greed only doesn't work in any content. It's already potentially frustrating enough to hope something drops, never mind having to also hope none of the other seven players will roll on it too. It's rng with more rng on top.

Last tier I nearly didn't get my weekly loot on Rabanastre because the piece I needed didn't drop until monday evening. I think I did the instance eight times that week. I would have raged so hard if I ended up losing that gear to someone who wasn't playing as the role it's for.

Sure there's no loot lockout for older alliance raids but it doesn't make it less crappy if you run into the situation in which the item refuses to drop for a long time, and when it finally does you lose that healer gear to a dps.

I got the one piece I needed from Ridorana on my main. I haven't even bothered to unlock it yet on my lala alt because frankly the loot system turns me the hell off.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I would argue greed only doesn't work in any content. It's already potentially frustrating enough to hope something drops, never mind having to also hope none of the other seven players will roll on it too. It's rng with more rng on top.

Last tier I nearly didn't get my weekly loot on Rabanastre because the piece I needed didn't drop until monday evening. I think I did the instance eight times that week. I would have raged so hard if I ended up losing that gear to someone who wasn't playing as the role it's for.

I got the one piece I needed from Ridorana on my main. I haven't even bothered to unlock it yet on my lala alt because frankly the loot system turns me the hell off.

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It would probably work a lot better in older 24-mans that are not current-tier where people aren’t trying to get current gear for a main or secondary job. You’re talking about Rabanastre last tier; my suggestion was about implementing Greed Only only in non-current 24-mans. Rabanastre was, more or less, the current 24-man until last Tuesday, therefore Need would have been still working at that time if you went off the system I had described.

As for Ridorana, I’m not even rolling on gear from there. I am running it once for the token, and maybe a few times after to help friends through. But I also don’t need the gear from there, so it’s not a huge loss for me. I still disagree with the system.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It would probably work a lot better in older 24-mans

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Working better doesn't mean actually working well though. This greed only ridiculousness needs to go.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

As for Ridorana, I’m not even rolling on gear from there. I am running it once for the token, and maybe a few times after to help friends through. But I also don’t need the gear from there, so it’s not a huge loss for me. I still disagree with the system.

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Yea I intend to run it only once a week for the token. Not even going to try to get glam gear because I hate the idea that I can only roll greed and I might deprive someone else of gear they legit need.

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Originally Posted by Enla

The larger thread for this has countless stories of people losing out on their upgrades in the new alliance raid because people who didn't even play the class rolled on the loot. It's a problem even with the lockout.

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Yeah I've saved loot like this for when it eventually became desynthable. I'm a bit interested in glamour pieces but with the greed only nonsense I don't have the time to even count on doing that so I'll probably just end up lotting whatever ltw/wvr/gsm pieces to save on retainers instead.

The answer is so obvious:

For each dungeon, allow 'Need' on one item per week only for those that can equip that item at the time of the drop. Allow unlimited 'Greed' for everyone.

I like the option.

I get to go on DRK if I want to, play on my most geared class that's going to contribute the most, than go on a less-geared alt-job I enjoy playing frequently when the mood strikes (in this case, Samurai). Got the chest piece at the end of the raid with a 24.

Granted, when I need healing gear to upgrade my healing jobs and if there was a "Need" system in place. Well.

Hope you like dying ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Granted, if someone is in there on a class they main and state as such there's a chance I'd pass on the items just because I'm nice. But if no one says anything I operate under the presumption we're a bunch of token hunters who might nab something for an off-job.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Greed Only would work fine in non-current 24-mans. In current 24-mans, no. Please put back a Need option in 24-mans during their relative patch.

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To be frank I would increase the quantity of dropped items too, to offset the RNG that is stacked against some1, while it's true that only NIN and DRG don't share gear with other jobs, I feel like that the RNG is not on the plòayer side, current raid or not. I mean I've yet to get my argath card and since 4.2 is party roll only (ok true I haven't done rabanastre that many time since 4.2 but that's beside the point)

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I don't care about it being 'all greed'... 24man raids are just for glamour, and quite frankly Rabanastre has had very underwhelming armor models thus far.

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Its not just glamour for everyone. If you dont gear up the whole time, those piece may help you, even on your main character. Also if it was truly just for glamour, why would they even need to change it?

I like what was said earlier: it would work better in content that is older, but let content that is newer have a need button so that players who want it for upgrades or glamour can get it easily enough by running on the corresponding job.

Signed with one condition.
Need only with the class youre in the raid.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I don't care about it being 'all greed'... 24man raids are just for glamour, and quite frankly Rabanastre has had very underwhelming armor models thus far.

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No 24 man raids are not just for glamour. They are mainly to gear people up who don't have a ton of tomes or savage gear, like new or returning players.

Yes, please. Losing an upgrade to someone who doesn't even have that class unlocked is horrible.

Its almost impossible for a newcomer like me to gear up when i have to compete with potentially 8 other players for a piece of randomized loot

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Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR

Unfavourable opinion, but after the initial shock (and frustration), I'm okay with this greed-only button. It DOES suck when trying to gear up a specific class, but I'm trying to gear up multiple classes so it's working out for me okay so far.

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Step outside yourself for a moment, then. Let's play a little bit of pretend, and that's something we should all be good at since we're all playing an mmo.

Let's pretend you aren't you, gearing up multiple classes. Let's pretend you are a new player, fresh out of the gates, working on your very first job so that you can finally start to do some end game content with the new friends you just made in your Free Company. You're excited to see some of the most epic boss battles ever made, and you're doing everything you can to get your ilvl high enough to get there.

You head into the 24 man raid because there's a piece in there that can help you reach that goal and it's content designed to help you gear for the harder raids. You go in, you execute all the mechanics perfectly, and that piece you want, that you really, really want, finally drops.

You don't get to have priority on that roll, because someone like you, the real you, not the pretend you in this scenario, is 'gearing multiple classes' and somehow, playing the job that you want to gear has become... what's the word I'm looking for, frowned upon?

Like, when did we start acting like it's a bad thing to play the job you want to get gear on? Nothing about this whole topic (and many others) makes any sense to me. I guess just caring about the good of the entire playerbase is not the way this game is designed.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

No 24 man raids are not just for glamour. They are mainly to gear people up who don't have a ton of tomes or savage gear, like new or returning players.

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Unless you are doing Savage the current EX dungeon gear will be sufficient to reasonably catch up. This game does not require the top ilv for the majority of content.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Unless you are doing Savage the current EX dungeon gear will be sufficient to reasonably catch up. This game does not require the top ilv for the majority of content.

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You know that 24 man gear is also often BiS until you get savage stuff, right? If the 24 man gear would be only for glamour it wouldn't have these stats and ilvl because glamour doesn't need to have that.
And on top of that returning and new players need better gear if they want to start raiding than the "awesome" EX dungeon crap.

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

Just like the title says.

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I am actually torn on this. On one hand, I would rather someone be in the 24man with their main playing to their fullest potential. On the other hand, their are some greedy and lucky sob's. Ive literally seen 1 person win 90% of the items in an entire run. So its a catch 22 for me. The only reason its a big issue currently is because everyone and their mother is desynthing the rabanastre gear for stormsaps. Weekly limit is a weekly limit so the new 24man doesnt matter.

Signed yes please. No one ever asked for this.