An alternative to parsing?

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

They have. I rarely see a game that does anything like that anymore.

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Yeah, it always was a japanese dev thing at heart. There are some that still do it, usually B-games like Galgun or Schoolgirl Zombie Hunter, but they often start at B and make the conditions fairly generous to rank up.

Well, they really need to add ingame parsing and make the games memory more difficult to scan. From what I understand theres no encryption or obfuscation whatsoever. There are plenty of games out there that dont have 3rd party programs outside of hardcore paid bots simply because the devs made it too difficult to make stuff like that (as an example, ESO used to have an ACT plugin, but its developer abandoned it when the game made its memory more difficult to scan).

Parsing isn't the problem (and heck, they could even offer the option to disable parsing or "make my parse private" to individual players). The problem is that ACT is being used for things way beyond simple parsing. It's radar as far as hunts are concerned, and on top of that apparently now there's a plugin that lets people script with it? Thats pretty bad. I only recently heard about that but it does explain a lot of stuff Ive been seeing lately (wont go into specifics)... Honestly, I dont generally care when I see people doing something that doesnt impact my gameplay. Im not going to sit there and fill out reports over a bunch of teleporting gathering bots because, well, that's SE's job. They should be able to detect and deal with that sort of thing. But yeah when I see people talk like they're hot ****, when they're blatantly cheating at the game, that really grinds me. Is that petty? idk. lol

A couple of small clarifications:

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You have stone sea sky to check your basic rotation and gauge improvements in damage.

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SSS would have more merit if it gave any real feedback beyond 'you've done an amount of damage within a timer'. As is however, I just don't think it fits in with the difficulty of high end content at release. The lack of any meaningful feedback coupled with a complete inability to factor in team comps has had me thinking it's a half baked exercise from the world go.

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Originally Posted by Enlial

The problem is that ACT is being used for things way beyond simple parsing. It's radar as far as hunts are concerned, and on top of that apparently now there's a plugin that lets people script with it? Thats pretty bad

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Assuming you're talking about what I think you are, lets be clear that the two hunt radars I'm aware off have nothing to do with ACT, nor are either plugins for it. One is stand alone, the other was an addition to a rival parser that was popular early on in ARR but I suspect is now defunct. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken of course, but I suspect I am not.

The scripting thing is a different kettle of fish, I consider the author to be a good friend and don't doubt his intentions with it, that plugin has some great QOL stuff as well as some really cool functionality for streamers. The keypress on event thing could fairly be labeled as scripting though. Whilst I don't use it myself, I would immediately guess that it's got more implications for crafting than it does combat.

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Originally Posted by Luin

Been asking for it since 2.0, not happening, they never gave a reason why. This idea comes up every other month or so.

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They gave the reason and made it very clear it will never happen because of the Koike incident.


From the Reddit:

A female player and celebrity named Miyu Koike, who also happened to be the host for FFXIV’s official Nico Nico channel show, had an incident she attempted to recruit 7 other players to play with her (this was broadcasted live at that time).

Abyss of Darkness, a world 3rd Japanese group for Final Coil clear then sneaked into the party (6 of them), streaming themselves through an unofficial channel and then made fun of Koike through slanders, spinning the boss around, and made fun of her DPS performance. Worse, Koike was also sexually harassed when the party disbands.

This prompted the Japanese community to punish the group sending hundreds of naked Roegadyns (Hageruga Matsuri, see below). As a result, these trolls ended up changing their names, servers, deleted their Twitter accounts, issued a non sincere apology through their Nicovideo live broadcast (which further angered the community).

Finally the group ended up a temporary ban given by the lead community representive, Foxclon himself.

The incident did not end in a sweet note however, therefore the group is currently monitored.

My problem with parsers isn't that they are used, it's that they do not tell the whole story but many are acting like they are the only thing that matters. They do not show who is helping or missing mechanics, they do not show who is more concerned with the win. They only show numbers. Too many groups end up relying on this to the point I once had a sch offer to show me how awesome her parser data was when I suggested she should really not be casting broil with 4 dead teammates.

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Originally Posted by Saikoh

My problem with parsers isn't that they are used, it's that they do not tell the whole story but many are acting like they are the only thing that matters. They do not show who is helping or missing mechanics, they do not show who is more concerned with the win. They only show numbers. Too many groups end up relying on this to the point I once had a sch offer to show me how awesome her parser data was when I suggested she should really not be casting broil with 4 dead teammates.

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Actually...parse data does show stuff like that on the main site where this information is uploaded. Its more than just raw damage - it does show things like timelines, events, every cast time, who died and to what, what killed whom, etc. There's a ridiculous amount of information that you find on it.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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It's alerts can be configured to go off when a hunt mob is added to the entity list. Apples to oranges. Its why people can go afk at squonk for 12 hours and know the second bird of paradise spawns. Its why A-rank trains have a single person who leads the group to every mob. You can call it whatever you want but its having a big impact on the game.

Well intentioned or not, when you have something that works like "If this happens, then push this button", thats automation plain and simple

I suspect you're confusing it's capabilities with the actual hunt radar app =s

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

They gave the reason and made it very clear it will never happen because of the Koike incident.

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It's a shame this gets cited as a reason for SE's stance as in all honesty, the parser aspect of it was just one of many angles they used to have a go at her. It was pretty clear that even with no parser data available, they would have still acted in the manner that they did. Trolls will be trolls irrespective of the tools they have to use :(

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Actually...parse data does show stuff like that on the main site where this information is uploaded. Its more than just raw damage - it does show things like timelines, events, every cast time, who died and to what, what killed whom, etc. There's a ridiculous amount of information that you find on it.

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Showing what someone got hit by is not the same as showing who is attending to mechanics. This is an example of my point that some believe the parser is all, when it is just a measuring tool.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

It's a shame this gets cited as a reason for SE's stance as in all honesty, the parser aspect of it was just one of many angles they used to have a go at her. It was pretty clear that even with no parser data available, they would have still acted in the manner that they did. Trolls will be trolls irrespective of the tools they have to use :(

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It is not just that.
Japanese community will discipline themselves for this type of trolling behaviour.
These trolls are outcast-ed and have to change server and the names (still vulnerable to JP community internal blacklist).
English community on other hand will not discipline this type of trolling behaviur; and some will idolize these trolls.
Yoship is showing the emotion of disgust every time someone bring up parer.
It will simply never happens.

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Originally Posted by Saikoh

Showing what someone got hit by is not the same as showing who is attending to mechanics. This is an example of my point that some believe the parser is all, when it is just a measuring tool.

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On FFLogs there is a "replay" feature that allows people to watch a fight that was uploaded in the most minimalistic of terms. You are able to see when people move, when the mob moves, damage done, damage taken, healing done/received, abilities used by the mobs, etc.

So, yes, you can actually see who is not attending to mechanics using the data from FFLOGs, replay function, and deductive reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

It is not just that.
Japanese community will discipline themselves for this type of trolling behaviour.
These trolls are outcast-ed and have to change server and the names (still vulnerable to JP community internal blacklist).
English community on other hand will not discipline this type of trolling behaviur; and some will idolize these trolls.
Yoship is showing the emotion of disgust every time someone bring up parer.
It will simply never happens.

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This is a gross assumption, and unfairly idealizes JP. Considering we have actual proof to the contrary, you're simply arguing with anecdote; poor ones, in particular.

For reference sake, a year or so ago someone was scammed out of their house. NA's response? The precise same thing JP did; bombarding the couple with Magitek cannon fire for two days straight until a GM intervened and returned the house. Assuming NA would have any less a disgusted reaction, or that JP is above equally awful people who idolize such trolls is pure and simple bias.

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Originally Posted by ZJyn

The issue with parsing is not the tool, but the people who use it.

I couldn't care less if someone is running a damage parser in the background to evaluate their own performance. What I will take issue with is if they decide to spout off about other's performance if it doesn't meet their unrealistic standards or expectations.

I'm never going to outparse someone who is in super awesome crazy gear. It won't happen. Do I put my all into every dungeon and trial that I run? Yes, and I know for a fact that i'm not near as bad as some folks who sleep through their dungeons.

And yet, even with that, i've had people make rude comments in dungeons about my DPS.

So to those who want the tool to just evaluate how they're doing? And see some numbers to reflect on their performance? Thumbs up. To people that are wanting to use it to malign others? Take a long look in the mirror, because you're the ones that are making the dev team second guess allowing this thing's use in the game.

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Contrary to popular belief, people are far less likely to scrutinize numbers without according for certain parameters, such as gear. Will some inevitably be jerks? Yes, but I've also been accused of buying my Savage clears by someone who clearly didn't have a parse going. The majority want a means of measuring their own performance, and a percentage from there want to evaluate the group on a reasonable basis. For example, I was helping a friend some weeks back and we wound up with a RDM who had no business joining at weekly clear run. While I certainly have no need to be rude, I am also not obligated to essentially carry someone. There is a stark difference between...

"Hey, RDM? Your DPS is really low."
"wtf RDM? You fucking suck."

And it irks me the assumption is everyone who parses will always be the latter.

And once again a parser fan misses the point. People aren't worrying about people replaying their performance and seeing what they did or did not do. People are in party that only care about their numbers. Excessive reliance on a parser is very detrimental to team play.

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Originally Posted by Saikoh

And once again a parser fan misses the point. People aren't worrying about people replaying their performance and seeing what they did or did not do. People are in party that only care about their numbers.

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Numbers which are representative of one's performance. You do not know what people at large use the service for; my Ninja and I regularly look over what we did versus what others of our job did, how they optimized, and how we can better optimize for our group.

Am I claiming everybody uses it like this? No. I don't have the data. But neither do you.

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Excessive reliance on a parser is very detrimental to team play.

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Correct usage of a parser is very beneficial to team play.

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

I don't think this will ever happen for 2 things:

Many people will be upset look at that 'other thread' for details.
We do already have what we want & a friend can parse a PS4 players DPS.

They allow the mod because they realise if they would ban it they would loose 90% of the raiding community, if they would make an official meter then 90% of the 'non raiders' would leave.
In the end SE wants to retrain as much people as possible for their money.

Maybe a bit of exaggerated numbers but that's how I see it.

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No, they "allow" the mod because FFXIV has no client-side anti-cheat software.

As for why, it's (A) because the game was a hot mess at launch, and they never got around to implementing it because (B) it's a legal minefield, has enormous cost, and (C) doesn't actually stop the most harmful cheaters.

Anti-cheat protection has never worked. Cheaters will bypass it, it's only a matter of time. It's a complete waste of time, money, generally makes the game performance trash, and it aggravates players.

To be clear, it's not allowed. It's a 3rd party program, it is explicitly banned. Using ACT, mods, any 3rd party programs that interact with the game or the game's data in any way, is against the ToS.

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Originally Posted by Saikoh

And once again a parser fan misses the point. People aren't worrying about people replaying their performance and seeing what they did or did not do. People are in party that only care about their numbers. Excessive reliance on a parser is very detrimental to team play.

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That's just not true, because World First teams have often used it in their own progressions. I'm not sure what kind of parties you have been in or what kind of players that you have played with, but over-reliance on numbers is not the usual case. The logs available now are perfect for comparing what the top guys are doing to what you're doing. As far as numbers go, numbers are important. Just this morning, I went into V5S and our DPS was so low that we couldn't even kill the chimney. All of us asked if anybody was running a parse to find out who was not contributing enough so we could work on it together - and this was a PUG group.

What you are talking about are likely parse groups and speed kill groups, which...yeah, those groups only care about numbers. But again, those really are not representative of the majority. Many groups are satisfied with just having a good and getting the weekly clear out of the way.

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Originally Posted by Luin

To be clear, it's not allowed. It's a 3rd party program, it is explicitly banned. Using ACT, mods, any 3rd party programs that interact with the game or the game's data in any way, is against the ToS.

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It's not explictly allowed, hence why there is a don't ask, don't tell policy that is generally adhered to that a lot of people follow. There's not really much of an issue as long as folks aren't going around and harassing people about their DPS. Nobody here is really arguing that it's against ToS. That much, we all acknowledge. The point of the thread, however, is to discuss alternatives that could be somewhat effective at replicating a little bit of what parsers do, like a compromise.

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Originally Posted by Enlial

Well, they really need to add ingame parsing and make the games memory more difficult to scan. From what I understand theres no encryption or obfuscation whatsoever. There are plenty of games out there that dont have 3rd party programs outside of hardcore paid bots simply because the devs made it too difficult to make stuff like that (as an example, ESO used to have an ACT plugin, but its developer abandoned it when the game made its memory more difficult to scan).

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Not fully true, it's not about the memory. ESO has a full API addon support. People (the ones with low DPS) where crying about it so they changed the API. There's still a DPS meter addon, it just shows you how much DPS you do and how much of group DPS you did, party DPS is not available anymore.


"The best you're gonna get is combat metrics which shows your own DPS and how much % of the group damage you did.
There used to be an addon which showed everyone's DPS numbers in the group much like what you ask for, but people were..... sensitive about it. So the devs removed the API"

And that's all I need in this game, SE should do it this way too that way 'poor performers' can remain 'hidden'. The people interested in DPS meter have statics anyway, I personally couldn't care how much DPS pugs do.

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Originally Posted by Luin

No, they "allow" the mod because FFXIV has no client-side anti-cheat software.

As for why, it's (A) because the game was a hot mess at launch, and they never got around to implementing it because (B) it's a legal minefield, has enormous cost, and (C) doesn't actually stop the most harmful cheaters.

Anti-cheat protection has never worked. Cheaters will bypass it, it's only a matter of time. It's a complete waste of time, money, generally makes the game performance trash, and it aggravates players.

To be clear, it's not allowed. It's a 3rd party program, it is explicitly banned. Using ACT, mods, any 3rd party programs that interact with the game or the game's data in any way, is against the ToS.

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Then tell me why Yoshida is OK with it as long as we don't harass people with it?
Then tell me that why Yoshida was WATCHING the livestreams of the top statics racing for worlds first ultimate in which ALL OF THEM shows DPS meters in their game screen. Yoshida even congratulated the ones that won.
Why didn't Yoshida just ban all those people?


Tell me.


Extra note: it's not a cheat. Soon you people will say that I'm cheating because I use voice chat and I talk with my raiding buddies and we tell when bad stuff is coming.

I've never had a problem with people using or not using parsers. It all finitely depends on the user whether the tool itself is used for learning or for personal enjoyment through harassing others with it. And if someone is harassing you non-constructively because they can see your numbers? Well, there's a report feature for that. But, people also need to stop, and I mean stop, jumping up in arms anytime someone offers some constructive criticism regarding their performance in-game. There's nothing factually wrong nor is it a personal attack on you when someone offers to tell you that you have the wrong tank stance on or if you're doing a part of your rotation out of order.

Personally, I enjoy using fflogs as a tool to improve myself, especially since I started doing Savage content. It makes me feel really good when my numbers are even a smidgen higher than the last time and if they're lower? Oh well, off day or I messed up, stuff happens.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You have stone sea sky to check your basic rotation and gauge improvements in damage.

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Easy enough. Just copy everything in the damage log into Excel and start calculating as you wouldn't want to attribute a dps change to a rotation change where in reality it just was luck with crits and direct hits on big potency skills, would you?
Or you'd just do a higher amount of SSS per rotation change and take the average. Very convenient. Sounds like it would really keep people in the game that like to improve their gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Slick7

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Only problem that I see with this is uptime. The key fight that comes to mind particularly for melee is Byakko Ex, especially as one will not always have true north available to use. I would support some changes to SSS that mimic the fights that the dummy is representing, ideally, mechanics that don't exactly kill you, but affect your damage - with an increased timeframe, of course. As it is, I don't like SSS because some of the HP on them are overtuned. I have yet to beat a dummy for the current Savage tier, yet I can perform fine in actual Savage. SSS needs some key QoL improvements for it to be a good source of information. All it does is just inform you that your rotation is sound when you are in a pure burn phase and have zero mechanics to worry about.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I have yet to beat a dummy for the current Savage tier, yet I can perform fine in actual Savage. SSS needs some key QoL improvements for it to be a good source of information. All it does is just inform you that your rotation is sound when you are in a pure burn phase and have zero mechanics to worry about.

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This. Exactly just this. SSS isn't a good way to gauge a person's overall damage performance unless some QoL adjustments are made because there will literally never be a current fight where you can just blindly ignore mechanics and not once, ever move from a single spot. I could have the soundest BLM rotation known to man on a Savage dummy or even just a trial dummy.....and then reality will hit that mechanics beg to differ and I'm really playing DDR instead of Red Light, Green Light.

Should have put a 'attention sarcasm' sign in my post.
While I can understand some people don't like the competition that comes with fflogs the game _really_ does a poor job at giving feedback to your performance as dps.
The situation as it is now is perfectly acceptable with act being tolerated - unless you're playing on ps4.

So I guess some kind of ingame feedback on performance would be good - you could limit that to savage content and extreme primals to avoid conflicts.

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Originally Posted by ZJyn

What I will take issue with is if they decide to spout off about other's performance if it doesn't meet their unrealistic standards or expectations.

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What if the standards are realistic is that ok? For instance - In a standard level 70 dungeon is doing more DPS than I did in HW is that a fair expectation? How about ARR? I've seen both cases doing less. How about doing more than a tank or healer? Is that fair expectations?

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I'm never going to outparse someone who is in super awesome crazy gear. It won't happen.

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You'd be surprised. Anecdotal examples:

1) I had some pug O3Ss where my co-tank did less damage despite being 30ivl higher without dying than I did @ i297 doing Susano EX in full time shield oath. In this example O3S - I did nearly double their damage with equivalent gear.

2) My brother was an ~i305 SAM who regularly out damaged other pug SAMs with nearly 20-25ilvl on him by well over 1k DPS.

3) At the beginning of SB, one of my BLM buddies regularly sustained 5K DPS over an entire dungeon run with low ilvl gear. Over half of my DF runs despite people having 40+ ilvl on my BLM buddy can't sustain that much, and often sustain significantly less.

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And yet, even with that, i've had people make rude comments in dungeons about my DPS.

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If we were on the same DC I'd run with you to give you an idea of where you're at, but sadly we're on opposite. If you truly don't have an idea, it's very possible that you're not doing as well as you think/could be.

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Originally Posted by Saikoh

My problem with parsers isn't that they are used, it's that they do not tell the whole story but many are acting like they are the only thing that matters. They do not show who is helping or missing mechanics, they do not show who is more concerned with the win. They only show numbers. Too many groups end up relying on this to the point I once had a sch offer to show me how awesome her parser data was when I suggested she should really not be casting broil with 4 dead teammates.

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Context of story regarding broiling SCH and 4 dead teammates? What content, when, ilvl, and what was the result? wipe? clear? Did you have LB3 or near LB3?

Also do you have any examples of mechanics that a parser doesn't capture someone doing? From real fights in the current expansion. Would be helpful to understand your position better.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Just this morning, I went into V5S and our DPS was so low that we couldn't even kill the chimney. All of us asked if anybody was running a parse to find out who was not contributing enough so we could work on it together - and this was a PUG group.

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Just in case you didn't know the best way to look into this - check the incoming damage to adds and see who did how much to them. The chimney dies in like 2-3 GCDs, so if you didn't have enough time to kill it, it means adds died WAY too slow.

If you're not familiar with how (doing this by memory so bear with me) - in ACT right there you can go to incoming damage and find the monster name right click on it and click lookup by combatant. It will give a breakdown of all incoming damage to that target. Really easy to identify who isn't contributing to the adds.

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I have yet to beat a dummy for the current Savage tier, yet I can perform fine in actual Savage.

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That's a strange thing to say. If you genuinely can't output enough DPS to clear the dummies, you're very likely getting carried to your clears. If everyone was in your exact position - would the boss still die?

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

That's a strange thing to say. If you genuinely can't output enough DPS to clear the dummies, you're very likely getting carried to your clears. If everyone was in your exact position - would the boss still die?

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It's pretty common place for some jobs to be unable to clear their SSS dummy even in the hands of a world class progression player upon a new tier's release.

Agreed on the rest of the points though, playing to a high standard in terms of APM and rotation will frequently more than make up for any reasonable gear deficit in casual content and pugs when you're often up against people who simply aren't trying :(

To all those people saying they're getting negative reactions after giving advice to other people, I'd like to ask a question :
Are you telling them this in a nice way, like "You should use spell A, you shouldn't do this or that..."
Or are you more like : "Git gud noob !"

Because I eventually do encounter players having difficulties, and have given lots of advice during my runs, but I rarely had those kind of negative reactions... at least with E players : with D or F players it's another story...
From my pov, new players are usually very listening and keen to learn. It's on the contrary, mentors that have a hard time to admit when they mess up things... or will come up with all kind of excuses to reject/put the blame on someone/something else.

Sometimes, and probably most of the time, the problem isn't the player, it is the way things are told.
Good example are 24 man raids, in which I'd often get a couple people raging after a wipe and spamming chat with multi-line ascii art telling people to git gud (I hate that honestly).
If people fail, the best way to make them suceed next time is to encourage/help them. If you belittle them, do you think they will bow their head to you and do their best in order to satisfy you ? Hell no : because you got them upset, or because they want you to rage even more, they will diss your advice and keep failing, be it voluntarily or not.
In real life, people like to be told things nicely, especially coming from strangers. Sadly, some people think they are some kind of Linus Torvalds tyranizing people in the lkml...

Now on topic,
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ingame_parser/

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

This. Exactly just this. SSS isn't a good way to gauge a person's overall damage performance unless some QoL adjustments are made because there will literally never be a current fight where you can just blindly ignore mechanics and not once, ever move from a single spot. I could have the soundest BLM rotation known to man on a Savage dummy or even just a trial dummy.....and then reality will hit that mechanics beg to differ and I'm really playing DDR instead of Red Light, Green Light.

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That's not the purpose of SSS. The purpose of SSS is to test weather or not the rotation you are using is enough to pass the dps checks and contribute to damage in a boss situation.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

That's a strange thing to say. If you genuinely can't output enough DPS to clear the dummies, you're very likely getting carried to your clears. If everyone was in your exact position - would the boss still die?

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I'm being carried because I can't clear a dummy?

...that's not a comforting thought to have. :/

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I'm being carried because I can't clear a dummy?

...that's not a comforting thought to have. :/

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That's the whole purpose of DPS checks.
Everybody is doing the mechanics perfectly OK, but the other DPS in the group will have to compensate for your lack of DPS for, e.g, not wipe on the enrage.
"Carried" is a little too much though... Carried would be rather you dying on the very first second of the fight and staying dead while the group is proceeding to clear the boss.
If you do mechanics right, clear the boss, but do not manage to clear the dummy it doesn't mean you were carried : it just means you have room to improve dps wise. As to how much room you can improve will depend on how much HP the dummy has left once the timer is up !

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Originally Posted by Moogly

That's the whole purpose of DPS checks.
Everybody is doing the mechanics perfectly OK, but the other DPS in the group will have to compensate for your lack of DPS for, e.g, not wipe on the enrage.
"Carried" is a little too much though... Carried would be rather you dying on the very first second of the fight and staying dead while the group is proceeding to clear the boss.
If you do mechanics right, clear the boss, but do not manage to clear the dummy it doesn't mean you were carried : it just means you have room to improve dps wise. As to how much room you can improve will depend on how much HP the dummy has left once the timer is up !

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Consistently in the 1% - 5% range, based on the last several times I've fought the v5s dummy.

I think what they really want to prevent happening is people using the parser in regular duty finder content to harass people. It may not become a widespread problem but I can definitely see people starting up Expert roulette and then hounding someone because their numbers a just shy of what they should be in a savage raid. Most of the game can be cleared without trouble without having to max out gear and rotation, but an ingame parser can lead to the idea that your numbers must be raid tier all the time no exception. And just look at how the raid community attacks each other with their parses already.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

And just look at how the raid community attacks each other with their parses already.

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I mean...there's literally no reason to use parsing in dungeon instances. You can usually tell who is and isn't playing on a decent standard. Parse should really only be used for fights that it would be useful in, which would be extreme and savage. But curious - where is the raid community attacking each other? Do you have examples of this?

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

That's not the purpose of SSS. The purpose of SSS is to test weather or not the rotation you are using is enough to pass the dps checks and contribute to damage in a boss situation.

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It, however, remains a poor indication due to the lack of raid buffs. Bard and Machinist will both be severely punished, especially Bard, since their damage depends heavily on Crit. Likewise, they are heavily gear dependent, which is far less punishing in actual Savage content. A prime example of that was Alte Roite. With vit melded accessories, you could beat him in i290 AF3 yet you wouldn't come close beating his SSS equivalent.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

That's not the purpose of SSS. The purpose of SSS is to test weather or not the rotation you are using is enough to pass the dps checks and contribute to damage in a boss situation.

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Which is all fine and dandy, but SSS doesn't account for doing said mechanics of the fight. You could meet the DPS checks on Byakko EX or Shinryu EX just fine on a training dummy because nothing, and I repeat, nothing is getting in your way. Now, try meeting the DPS checks while dodging AoE's, other people, aligning stack markers, etc.

The SSS only lets you know two things: 1) You know your job and rotation intimately enough and 2) You're appropriately geared for that fight. Person A could do legitimately well on a Byakko EX training dummy and still under perform in the actual fight because they're not that intimate of how to maintain a constant flow of damage while following the fight patterns. And there's nothing in the game that is teaching said things except the fight itself which makes parsers a variable learning tool for some because you're getting actual numbers to represent how well you're performing during the fight in real time.

This is what makes SSS fall short and flat of being extremely useful.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It, however, remains a poor indication due to the lack of raid buffs. Bard and Machinist will both be severely punished, especially Bard, since their damage depends heavily on Crit. Likewise, they are heavily gear dependent, which is far less punishing in actual Savage content. A prime example of that was Alte Roite. With vit melded accessories, you could beat him in i290 AF3 yet you wouldn't come close beating his SSS equivalent.

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Yea it stumbles for classes that are proc based no denying that. No system is perfect.

@sigma

Again its not testing mechanical knowledge the entire rest of the game has been teaching you that. All SSS truly test if your rotation is enough to beat the content and by beat i mean make sure the dps is pulling their weight to meet an enrage check. Mechanics by and large don't change your rotation outside of your opener depending on your class i.e ninja.

I don't feel like the current dummies are good enough. Take me for example. I'm consistently a trash tier player based on my deeps on monk. Have never been able to improve beyond grey parses. I feel like having an in game solution similar to a parse would be about to assist. The lack of in game feedback hurts a lot.

Chances are its a matter of uptime with you you prob play mechanics way too safe or make a lot of unnecessary movements. A parser or a dummy isnt going to help you with what your missing. FFlogs will though

Not that I'm the subject of this discussion, but no, my problem is just that I'm a bad player lol. But your right, dummies really don't help. I think something like what the Street Fighter games have for practice could be a good idea. Maybe even roll that in with crafters in letting them craft mini training figures

The SSS dummies certainly aren't the best meter but I think it's decent enough. Barely not clearing it with beginning of the season gear? I think you'll be fine. However, you have to also consider that we are near the end of the current tier. If you can't clear the v5s dummy in at least the 360 tome gear after all these weeks, crafted gear, Eureka gear, and what have you, then I think that's a good enough indicator that you need to go back to the lab and practice a new rotation with the class. There's enough resources out there to help buff you up. It's not the end of the world that you're not the best at something, but not doing anything to better yourself in content that "challenges you" will lead to more situations where people can't destroy the chimney in train.

You also have to remember that parses uploaded to the logs is not everyone in the game. That is more representative of the raiding community. In essence, your run is being compared to your fellow savage peers. You may be a king among casuals, but if you consistently get gray parses that doesn't mean you're trash. It means you're the bottom of most people doing endgame content, but even more than that, you're at the lower end of the spectrum of raiders that care enough to parse. If you have a low ilevel at the end of a tier, that could also be an influential factor.

There is always room for improvement. Getting bent out of shape over a few grays will do nobody good.

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Originally Posted by Ovenmitts

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I have to respectfully disagree. The greys that I've been getting lately, I personally view as an indicator that I'm a bad player. Which is why, again, I want something more than just the SSS dummy. Now, yes, it is true that currently in the raid tier, everybody who is hitting high numbers are close to BiS. That is true. But when one struggles to break 4k of damage, on a job that they do know for the most part minus a couple of SB changes, I have to question my own ability as a player. But again, the thread is not about me - it's about alternate means of parsers. If they gave the SSS dummies some QoL improvements, maybe even have an active DPS meter along with them (exclusively), I could see that helping.